2018:
leveled the playing field on this debate. I didn't influence anyone on how they may vote, I just showed them that a discussion was underway and invited them to join in. Maybe you don't like democracy, and prefer dictatorship? I can't read your mind, only your posts. And you seem quite determined to make a point here, as opposed to working toward the end you say you want: proper articles. There are so many other avenues you could have taken to achieve better articles, like
2676:, lists and categories are complementary, rather than overlapping and redundant. Lists are simply another way of organizing articles, that allow more flexibility and nuance than categories in their layout/sorting/inclusion criteria. If these lists are not perfect, fix them. If they are incomplete, add information. If they are not sourced, source them (remind you that categories NEVER include any sourcing). No convincing reason for deletion here. See also
2640:. Sampling half a dozen of the nominated lists at random, yes, some of them are just simple lists of links which could be better served by categories, but some have already been improved to add descriptive paragraphs to the listed musicians, including useful details such as what other genres they were active in. I suggest taking a deep breath and letting Mind Meal get on with improving the others. --
2237:. Could you give me some pointers on that? Because I'm at a real loss anymore. This is really beginning to feel personal now, as everything that a list could be those are. What else do you want? I'm beginning to think you aren't even looking at the articles, because notability is so clearly demonstrated that your comparison to college alumni is really nothing short of puzzling. (
2189:: "Several articles contain lists of people - for instance, an article on a college usually includes a list of alumni. Such lists are never intended to contain everyone (e.g. not all people who ever graduated from the school). Instead, the list should be limited to notable people: those that already have a Knowledge article or could plausibly have one,
1710:
that do not presently have a WP article
Therefore they cannot be replaced by a category, so that argument fails altogether also. Lists are much more flexible than categories, and permit the inclusion of information other than simply the names. In a sense, categories are the most trivial sort of list--they are just away of grouping WP articles.
2085:(As a side note, I don't buy the list on Dirty blues or Juke joint blues, because there are no articles for these music types and since most of the bios hem and haw about whether their artists belong in the genre. That should be cleaned up first, so that each list supports an article. I'm in favor of the Electric and Texas lists, though.)--
1729:
are implicitly included in the deletion criteria, because it explicitly includes hyperlinks in addition to the implicit wiki links. (And no overly bolding text please: I eliminated it assuming it was a typo.) Regardless, here we are in AfD, and these lists need to be deleted because they are just lists of links, forbidden by
1971:
calling this a "Dangerous
Discussion", etc., as you did. Surely that energy would be better spent on making the articles proper articles in the first place and not forcing Knowledge to go through this whole process. What we want is proper articles, not accusation of vendettas and "foul smells", as you wrote on another page.
2417:
It is not a reliable source because they are just republishing information they gathered elsewhere and do no explain where they got it. This is the same reason IMDB is not a reliable source. But lets just say for the sake of argument that it was a reliable source that demonstrated the music is indeed
2035:
The lists do not meet
Knowledge requirements, so they got tagged for speedy deletion. Rather than improve them, you waged politics to get the SD tags removed, which they were, fair enough, so we had to take the lists to AfD. This is not a democracy and this is not a vote. You can resort to a lot of
2022:
and making suggestions. Deletion is quite an extreme measure, and you should know full-well that it gets people angry. I kind of respect people that patrol pages like you, but also I find such work to be provacative and rather pompous at times. I don't spend my time undemrining the efforts of others,
2017:
PS: "What we want is proper articles, not accusation of vendettas and "foul smells", as you wrote on another page." You sure don't sound as if you want that. If you did then you'd realize I'm trying my best to improve them, instead of getting all nasty with people. You had a captive audience before I
1970:
There are 31 lists that are nominated for deletion and they are just collections of links. I doubt you've improved all 31. Even assuming that one passes muster, why didn't you make a proper article in the first place instead of first going around dropping requests on talk pages gathering allies and
2063:. Thus I think you should take back your words about "Rather than improve them", as he has clearly improved this list on a most impressive pace. An AfD is no way to urge him to fix 31 lists in a few days. Please point out the fundamental differences between the 31 lists you've nominated and those in
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is a red link. There should be an article on the subject, and the artists can go there, once the list is too big for the article that would be a good time to make a list. May I ask how exactly you are defining "Juke Joint blues"? What unambiguous criteria based off of reliable sources are you using
1728:
No straw man arguments, please. Nobody is arguing that CSD A3 is intended to eliminate all lists. CSD A3 applies to lists that are just lists of links, like these lists, even if the creator goes around tarting them up with a couple of birthdates. The text of CSD A3 is quite clear that wiki links
2338:
My blood pressure can't take this. "Juke Joint Blues refers to the hard-driving variation of
Southern R&B and electric blues where the rhythm is dominant. It's hard-rocking blues, intended for dancing, and it is usually frenzied uptempo blues or greasy slow blues. Generally, the term refers to
2286:
already states what juke joint blues is, and the entire article is referenced. If you could just look at the reference section you would know the source of that information. These lists go above and beyond the normal lists on
Knowledge, and I find this level of scrutiny rather disturbing, thus the
1709:
First of all, not speedy CSD A3 was not intended to eliminate all lists-and by the argument given it it would do so. There is no WP policy against lists. For that matter, there is also no policy against lists that contain items that do not have an article. Most of these lists do have items listed
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where it states"Knowledge offers three ways to create groupings of articles: categories, lists, and article series boxes. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, and each is appropriate in different circumstances. These methods should not be considered to be in competition with each other.
2002:
did. I find the lists useful, and put a lot of time into them. If I want to bring them up to par, I hope you won't stand in my way Hu. I don't want to see my work destroyed just to make some point. You can either work with me on this or against me. But if this particular list is deleted in it's
1680:
I disagree strongly with your first assertion. As to your second, if you wish to start cross referencing various music encyclopedias I'm sure you can find thousands of needed items to add to that project. Some of us take other approaches. Hundreds of the articles I've created were specifically
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been established, despite the lack of a stub article for them. Since each list has been referenced, merit has been shown. As for the red link argument being bogus, just give me a chance to provide simple birth/death dates for each and a brief summary of who they are. Deletion seems extreme,
2140:
remain here for deletion? A rationale should be provided, since they no longer fit into your opening arguments. This is getting real petty. As a general rule, it makes little sense to simultaneously have a list and a category perhaps. But since many of these musicians now have short blurbs
1980:
Why don't you just calm down a little bit and give me a chance to improve all the articles? You make it sound as if the improvments to this list are bothersome to you, like they hit at your pride. The answer to your question shoud be obvious: I was unaware that I was doing something wrong
1916:
Please see how the page appears as of now, and see if you still feel it is not up to par. I believe with the current work being done on this article - which will be done for all the other articles, makes it clear these lists shall remain. That is unless certain members have a vendetta.
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to see what we consider a reliable source. And that source in no way determines that the artists meet our notability requirements either. This is not about being combative, I am questioning your definition because musical genres are hard to define, and as it is, it seems like
2220:
This whole debate has become so dishonest. You said before that "If any of these have encyclopedic content beyond being a flat list then they can be considered on their own merits." Does that mean what it says or not? I don't understand what else is needed for
2141:
accompanying their red links, we are in a unique situation where information will be lost and categorization cannot suffice. This will occur with each list as time permits me, so eventually none will or should be deleted unless someone is just out to
2356:
I am trying to explain to you that "allmusic" is not a reliable source. It is a directory site. Who wrote that? It does not say. It is just a commercial directory site that gathers info from numerous sources and does not say where it got it from.
1985:. I have seen so many lists that look like the ones you nominated that it was how I thought things were to be done. I'm not someone who puts a ton of time into the politics of this place, I just want to help inform people. Obviously I needed some
2519:'s supposed unreliablity up somewhere other than here, because I've already demonstrated how several projects direct users there for sources. This again reeks of personal bias, asserting "truisms" that simply are not based on policy.
1784:
the categories, appearing in each corresponding category. They are referenced, though admittedly they need some additional work. But many of these lists contain musicians that simpply are not on
Knowledge at this time. The red links
1746:
If a basic stub cannot be made about the artist, then why should they be in a list? Where is their encyclopedic merit shown? If a stub can be made, put it in the category and viola it is indexed on a nice automatically made
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personal aspect of all of this. I'm still unclear on what these articles lack under current guidelines? Are you contesting the defintion, or just trying to be combative? The whole damned article states its reference. (
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3.This list should be deleted according to WP:CSD#A3 since it is just a list of links and the
Category:Electric blues musicians is much better for the purpose. It also violates WP:NOT#LINK (specifically item 2).
1997:
does right now, why would you hold that against me? I can say whatever I like here, as you are tossing out "bogus this" and "bogus that" at people. Nobody "forced" Knowledge to go through anything. If anything
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After being certain to move information into categories where not synchronized. If any of these have encyclopedic content beyond being a flat list then they can be considered on their own merits.
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To demonstrate this, you need to show us where that is said in policy or guidelines governing sources. Otherwise, such claims smell of personal bias, not actual discrepencies. You need to bring
2361:
explains what we consider a reliable source. If you are having problems with your blood pressure I suggest you take a short break, don't take it so seriously this is just an academic debate.
2040:. The amount of work you put into something is not determinative. You are not being swiftboated and it is not about you, it's about the lists. You completely misunderstand the process.
1597:(but not speedy). There are articles linked in the lists that are not in the relevant categories. Would be best to see if we could get a bot to transfer the information as appropriate.
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for now and see if they improve. They can always be deleted later if necessary. There is also nothing wrong with red links and since when is allmusic not considered a reliable source?
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and others. Some of the lists may prove to be redundant but at present they are useful to me and others in identifying the need for articles and further work, and in classification.
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to determine the inclusion in this list? It is a mistake to take this personally, it is about editorial decision making, not anyone's opinion about you.
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and replace with a category. I think a category is perfect for something like this (Assuming that inclusion in the genre is noted by reliable sources)
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I wanted to nominate the 30 other lists that need to be deleted, so I did so. I didn't want to dump them on somebody else's nomination and hijack it.
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a category. The non-existing articles argument you and the creator advance is bogus because there are other places to place such requests, such as
1656:. Such lists still have value in addition to categories, especially in the red links showing where Knowledge still has many very serious gaps. --
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2081:. This seems fine now. It doesn't seem to be OR, and it doesn't seem to be just a crib from the All Music Guide. I'm in favor of more like this.
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Doesnt WP:ALBUMS#Review_Sites say AllMusicGuide is not professional and should not be used? Its not policy, but I'd say that's the consensus.
2545:. They are referenced and assert notability for each individual, including record labels, numbers of albums and sometimes who they played with.
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In other words, if an artist does not justify an article they should not be in the list anyways, so nothing is lost by switching to a cat.
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I have never seen so much scrutiny for something so straightforward in my life. Shit like this makes people want to leave this place. (
2619:. This can only be asserted as something others must adhere to once proper consensus is formed on whether or not you are even correct.
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A number of false statements, claims and assertions have been made so far that have not been backed up by the authors of them.
1905:, and then see if there's anything more to say about this list. I think we should keep it for the same reasons I gave there.
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issue, and partially an editorial decision regarding the usefulness of the article in the presence of identical categories.
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As Mind meal asserts, the list is referenced and contains short blurbs about the artists. Seems to be improving as well.--
1927:
Claiming or assuming or accusing or supposing or imagining members of making a vendetta doesn't exactly advance your case.
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A category is not the same thing as an article. A list with no information than other links is a category, or should be.
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2457:. All Music Guide publishes yearly print reference guides. As for "Where is the notability of the artists demonstrated?"
1737:. If your red links argument had any merit then any bogus list could be forced to be kept by adding one red link to it.
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2697:, which has been fully annotated and expanded and is far more than a list of links and anything that a category can do.
1733:. The red links argument that you make fails because there are more appropriate places for requesting articles, namely
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4. If any of these have encyclopedic content beyond being a flat list then they can be considered on their own merits.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Your "reference" is a link to a
Knowledge article about a directory listing site. I suggest you take a look at
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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selected over other topics I could have equally well spent the time on because of the red links. --
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is much better for the purpose. It also violates WP:NOT#LINK (specifically item 2). See also
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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also exist as reliable sources which can be used to further expand and verify these lists.
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Put simply, this is a false assertion that does not take into account the progress of
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2124:, are you going to withdraw your nomination of it? On what grounds and merit do
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for the same reasons stated above (Categories better, CSD#A3, and WP:NOT#LINK):
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Oh, and regarding the "red links" that would be lost if this was deleted, from
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considering these are all referenced unlike the majority of lists out there. (
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Given the absolute ridicule of the improvements since that statement and the
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is the result of their non-binding, non-policy, non-guideline essay titled
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Where does it say that it is not a reliable source per policy? Please see
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and similar projects, as well as the
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if list content is merged there). As for reliable sources, note that
2067:. That might make our discussion less heated and more constructive.
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current state, I'll know none of this has been done in good faith. (
2418:"Foo folk". Where is the notability of the artists demonstrated?
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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is not a reliable reference, then you need to bring that up at
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R&B and blues singles made in the '50s and early '60s."
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/List of Folk-blues musicians
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/List of Folk-blues musicians
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Since this particular list clearly is no longer subject to
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First of all, you addressed only one article. The others?
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Move all others to sandboxes until they are in this state.
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in a reference section when All Music Guide is a source.
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The red links argument for lists is bogus. A place like
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referenced, and each artist included can be found at
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Jesus you are thick. Read the fucking lists already.
2157:It is not a speedy delete issue, it is partially a
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
2738:The Cambridge Companian to Blues and Gospel Music
2763:). No further edits should be made to this page.
2603:5. Wikilinks cannot be used as a reference, ie.
1874:Why are we having this discussion in two places?
2617:User:Until(1 == 2)/Wikilinks are not references
2036:ad hominem attacks against me, but they aren't
2397:WP:JAZZ#Possible_sources_for_authors.2Feditors
1671:is the appropriate place to request articles.
2678:Knowledge:Categories, lists, and series boxes
2577:Rather, they are most effective when used in
2574:Knowledge:Categories, lists, and series boxes
1950:I'm sorry, but has anyone voting delete even
8:
1844:are two different things. If you are saying
1840:You telling me something and that something
1810:I already told you, directory sites are not
2611:I presume that this argument presented by
2511:is not a reliable source of information.
2109:per nom, the cats are more then enough.--
125:since it is just a list of links and the
2023:I spend my time here adding content. (
2729:on the subject as well. In addition,
2051:I just sampled several more lists in
7:
2065:Category:Lists of musicians by genre
2053:Category:Lists of musicians by genre
436:List of Contemporary blues musicians
390:List of Classic female blues singers
133:for a similar debate. This list is
2581:, each one complementing the other.
2143:WP:Point#Refusal to 'get the point'
1872:Delete, as in the other nomination.
1126:List of New Orleans blues musicians
2562:List of Juke Joint blues musicians
2535:List of Juke Joint blues musicians
2284:List of Juke Joint blues musicians
2247:Well the first indication is that
2227:List of Juke Joint blues musicians
2130:List of Juke Joint blues musicians
1989:, as I was getting swiftboated by
1494:List of West Coast blues musicians
942:List of Juke Joint blues musicians
666:List of East Coast blues musicians
24:
2715:Lists of blues musicians by genre
1780:These lists are there to further
1541:Lists of blues musicians by genre
1034:List of Louisiana blues musicians
850:List of Harmonica blues musicians
127:Category:Electric blues musicians
2725:is not just a website: it has a
2719:List of blues musicians by genre
2695:List of Electric blues musicians
2558:List of Electric blues musicians
2531:List of Electric blues musicians
2223:List of Electric blues musicians
2126:List of Electric blues musicians
2057:List of Electric blues musicians
1995:List of Electric blues musicians
1218:List of Piedmont blues musicians
1172:List of New York blues musicians
712:List of Electric blues musicians
152:also been nominated for deletion
67:List of Electric blues musicians
59:List of Electric blues musicians
2529:This (surprise!) is untrue for
1735:Knowledge:WikiProject Musicians
1669:Knowledge:WikiProject Musicians
1080:List of Memphis blues musicians
574:List of Detroit blues musicians
482:List of Country blues musicians
344:List of Chicago blues musicians
298:List of British blues musicians
252:List of Boogie-Woogie musicians
160:List of Blues revival musicians
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
804:List of Gospel blues musicians
1:
2652:Keep and keep working on them
2638:Keep and keep working on them
2570:List of Texas blues musicians
2566:List of Dirty blues musicians
2543:List of Texas blues musicians
2539:List of Dirty blues musicians
2235:List of Texas blues musicians
2231:List of Dirty blues musicians
2187:Knowledge:Notability (people)
2138:List of Texas blues musicians
2134:List of Dirty blues musicians
1448:List of Urban blues musicians
1402:List of Texas blues musicians
1356:List of Swamp blues musicians
620:List of Dirty blues musicians
528:List of Delta blues musicians
2717:(which should be renamed to
1901:- Let's first get done with
1310:List of Soul-blues musicians
988:List of Jump blues musicians
896:List of Jazz blues musicians
758:List of Folk-blues musicians
206:List of Blues-rock musicians
1899:Keep, and merge discussions
2780:
2746:04:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
2732:Encyclopedia of the Blues
2685:11:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
2667:08:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
2645:03:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
2631:02:54, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
2595:refusal to recognize them
2496:19:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2466:16:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2447:16:23, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2438:16:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2408:16:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2381:16:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2347:16:09, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2330:16:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2292:15:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2272:15:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2242:15:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2216:15:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2181:14:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2150:07:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
2114:22:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
2102:20:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
2090:15:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
2072:13:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
2045:10:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
2028:07:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
2008:06:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1976:06:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1963:05:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1946:05:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1932:06:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1922:04:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1910:04:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1892:06:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1881:04:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1861:05:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1834:04:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1805:03:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1771:01:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1742:01:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1722:01:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1702:00:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1686:00:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1676:00:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1661:00:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1649:23:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
1622:23:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
1602:22:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
1588:22:19, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
150:The following lists have
146:22:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
53:06:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
2756:Please do not modify it.
1264:List of Slide guitarists
32:Please do not modify it.
2711:List of blues musicians
1609:These lists are mostly
2682:Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr)
2453:It says no such thing
2393:WP:Albums#Review_sites
2654:. Totally agree with
117:This list should be
2485:18:11, 24 July 2007
1751:called a category.
48:(non-admin close).
2613:User:Until(1 == 2)
2401:WP:ROCK#References
2193:."(emphasis added)
2191:per this guideline
2038:Knowledge:Civility
2771:
2758:
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2422:
2378:
2376:
2374:
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2327:
2325:
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2249:Juke Joint blues
2213:
2211:
2209:
2200:
2178:
2176:
2174:
2165:
1831:
1829:
1827:
1818:
1812:reliable sources
1768:
1766:
1764:
1755:
1646:
1644:
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1633:
1627:Delete carefully
1582:
1564:
1535:
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1471:
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1397:
1379:
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1333:
1305:
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90:
34:
2779:
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2768:
2767:
2761:deletion review
2754:
2723:All Music Guide
2605:All Music Guide
2517:All Music Guide
2509:All Music Guide
2491:per nom 10000%
2429:
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1846:All Music Guide
1825:
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1793:All Music Guide
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44:The result was
37:deletion review
30:
22:
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20:
12:
11:
5:
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2727:published book
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2014:
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1967:
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2087:Mike Selinker
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2020:contacting me
2016:
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27:
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19:
2755:
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2731:
2706:
2698:
2691:
2673:
2656:Infrogmation
2651:
2637:
2625:
2610:
2592:
2555:
2528:
2514:
2488:
2475:
2458:
2190:
2106:
2094:
2082:
2078:
2019:
1999:
1990:
1986:
1955:
1951:
1938:
1898:
1871:
1870:
1850:WP:Musicians
1841:
1796:
1787:
1786:
1781:
1777:
1748:
1711:
1706:
1694:
1683:Infrogmation
1658:Infrogmation
1653:
1626:
1610:
1606:
1594:
1536:and finally:
151:
149:
134:
118:
116:
46:no consensus
45:
43:
31:
28:
1731:WP:NOT#LINK
1615:WP:MUSICIAN
139:WP:MUSICIAN
2493:Bulldog123
2107:Delete all
2055:and found
1939:Delete All
1782:compliment
2703:Mind meal
2628:Mind meal
2463:Mind meal
2405:Mind meal
2344:Mind meal
2289:Mind meal
2239:Mind meal
2147:Mind meal
2122:WP:CSD#A3
2099:JayJasper
2061:Mind meal
2025:Mind meal
2005:Mind meal
1960:Mind meal
1919:Mind meal
1858:Mind meal
1854:WP:Albums
1802:Mind meal
123:WP:CSD#A3
2699:Keep all
2664:Ghmyrtle
2480:Garion96
1842:being so
1699:Pharmboy
111:View log
50:Cerejota
2743:DHowell
2660:Stormie
2642:Stormie
2579:synergy
2111:JForget
1991:enemies
1611:already
1558:protect
1553:history
1511:protect
1506:history
1465:protect
1460:history
1419:protect
1414:history
1373:protect
1368:history
1327:protect
1322:history
1281:protect
1276:history
1235:protect
1230:history
1189:protect
1184:history
1143:protect
1138:history
1097:protect
1092:history
1051:protect
1046:history
1005:protect
1000:history
959:protect
954:history
913:protect
908:history
867:protect
862:history
821:protect
816:history
775:protect
770:history
729:protect
724:history
683:protect
678:history
637:protect
632:history
591:protect
586:history
545:protect
540:history
499:protect
494:history
453:protect
448:history
407:protect
402:history
361:protect
356:history
315:protect
310:history
269:protect
264:history
223:protect
218:history
177:protect
172:history
135:already
119:deleted
84:protect
79:history
2707:merged
2489:Delete
2483:(talk)
2159:WP:NOT
1987:allies
1952:looked
1695:Delete
1599:JulesH
1595:Delete
1562:delete
1515:delete
1469:delete
1423:delete
1377:delete
1331:delete
1285:delete
1239:delete
1193:delete
1147:delete
1101:delete
1055:delete
1009:delete
963:delete
917:delete
871:delete
825:delete
779:delete
733:delete
687:delete
641:delete
595:delete
549:delete
503:delete
457:delete
411:delete
365:delete
319:delete
273:delete
227:delete
181:delete
88:delete
2455:Corpx
2444:Corpx
2421:Until
2364:Until
2359:WP:RS
2313:Until
2308:WP:OR
2303:WP:RS
2255:Until
2199:Until
2164:Until
1943:Corpx
1817:Until
1754:Until
1632:Until
1607:Note:
1579:views
1571:watch
1567:links
1532:views
1524:watch
1520:links
1486:views
1478:watch
1474:links
1440:views
1432:watch
1428:links
1394:views
1386:watch
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1348:views
1340:watch
1336:links
1302:views
1294:watch
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1256:views
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1164:views
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1118:views
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980:views
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934:views
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922:links
888:views
880:watch
876:links
842:views
834:watch
830:links
796:views
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750:views
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704:views
696:watch
692:links
658:views
650:watch
646:links
612:views
604:watch
600:links
566:views
558:watch
554:links
520:views
512:watch
508:links
474:views
466:watch
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