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about a company or organization to link to the subject's website — there's even a space for it in the infobox. Is the phone number really so different from a policy point of view? And is including it in the list really so different from the policy point of view? It's a small stretch of the rules, with negligible physical cost (what, a few tens of bytes per replica?) that doesn't seem to set a precedent for anything else and that has large potential benefits.
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24-25, and in some people such as myself it never does. Emotional immaturity can lead to a rash decision culminating in suicide. Talking to somebody can help them get over what, may in the future when they are older, be something that is tolerable. Um, I'm done. Oh, wait how about 'fixing it' or improving it, instead of bitching about it. That's how you 'Help
Knowledge' and thereby society, not by feeling self-important by slapping tags on things.
1220:
numbers is free to change their mind again at any time. Not listing phone numbers may deprive people of the opportunity to seek guidance (remember: Knowledge is the top two Google hits for "suicide") and people so deprived don't get to change their mind later: they're gone and their friends and family suffer. Finally, if arguing one opinion is "pushing one's morals" then arguing the contrary opinion must be the same thing.
359:- Knowledge is not a directory and providing a telephone book service is not within the scope of our mission. I appreciate the sentiment made above for an IAR Keep and quickly ran a Google search for SUICIDE+HELP+LINE, which returned plenty of good telephone numbers for someone in need. The odds of them seeking this information by typing "List of suicide crisis lines" in a Knowledge search seem very, very small.
566:. This is not a task we should take upon ourselves, as the encyclopedia that anyone can edit is a poor venue for listing any kind of emergency services with the expectation that people rely upon it and use it. I really don't think this is Knowledge's place at all, but at most Stuartyeates' suggestion should be followed. Note also that we already have
868:. The suicide line with which I'm most familar, the Samaritans, is beyond notable, being known by pretty well the whole population of Britain, and it has been demonstrated that other such lines are also notable. Whether to include the telephone numbers is an editing decision that can be decided by discussion on the article talk page.
303:: clearly not an "opinion piece", "scandal-mongering" or "self-promotion". I don't see any "advocacy, propaganda or recruitment" because it's just a list of organizations, or "advertising" because the content is entirely objective and does not offer any opinions, and all the organizations listed are individually notable.
1278:, an explorer from the nineteenth century who was stranded in a tent in the Arctic, and who committed an act of self-sacrifice with some some college kid who possibly has an undiagnosed condition causing suicidal ideation who is contemplating hanging themselves in their dorm room? That is incomprehensible to me.
1219:
Oates is an exceptional case and at no point have I argued that suicide is always bad. Furthermore, listing crisis line phone numbers does not compel anyone to call them and calling them does not compel anyone to not commit suicide. Anybody who decides not to commit suicide after calling one of those
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While there may be no 'hard evidence' that crisis lines work, there is empirical data which shows that interaction with another human being, even a stranger via telephone, causes actual changes in a persons neurochemistry, even if just short-term. The human brain doesn't mature until about the age of
527:
there is a 'list' of every conceivable exercise in asinine stupidity under the sun on
Knowledge; a list of people who had gerbils stuck up their ass in 1929, a list of people who shit their pants in 1982 etc. etc. ad nauseum. This is a list, it just happens to be one that may actually be useful and
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The purpose of an encyclopedia is to learn, and that can be done even from a 'list', e.g., I did not know that there were crisis lines that cater to specific demographic groups with unique issues such as LBGT youth, Native
American youth and Aboriginal Canadian youth. Now I do, I learned that from a
1186:
No, I'm not attempting to support this by the pillars: I'm attempting to support it by basic humanity. Are you honestly saying that adhering to
Knowledge's rules is a higher priority in your life than to giving somebody a chance to save their life? It is perfectly acceptable for a Knowledge article
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For an organization that is based on advocacy - providing free knowledge - articles of this nature, even in short list formats with those damned little flags, fits the bill perfectly. It advocates for people - often young ones - in crisis who may die by pointing them to someone who will listen and
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characters exist and pass muster--I would certainly keep this, albeit with a bit of work. Each of those individual institutions would easily pass notability checks and good reason exists to have a compiled list, though I would recommend it be semi-protected(at least) off the bat due to the serious
671:
which is a nice pretty page and all but is a list of fictional characters that do not exist in reality, but that is deemed notable. A list of suicide crisis lines list organizations that exist in reality, and are staffed by real people as opposed to ficticious characters. As far as notability I am
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violation. I couldn't find a Google search term that would put this list on the first page and the information is available in plenty of other places but there's still the possibility that somebody will find it and it will save their life. I don't think that making an exception here would open the
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I'm sure for each one of those entries a reference can be found in a 'notable publication'. Don't selectively enforce policy according to your own whims. If a list of real world organizations is not 'notable', then all these lists on
Knowledge of the characters in kiddie games most certainly are
966:. It's not far fetched to state that a certain number of those visitors are dead, but maybe a few were given pause for thought, that they haven't exhausted all their options yet by information listed their such as their are treatments that actually do work and there is someone to talk to.
1316:
Luxton DD, June JD, Fairall JM. Social media and suicide: a public health perspective: "There is increasing evidence that the
Internet (you mean like Knowledge?) and social media can influence suicide-related behavior" Am J Public Health. 2012 May;102 Suppl 2:S195-200. Epub 2012 Mar
644:
Many of these links are duplicates, as various regional branches of the same organization are listed. Perhaps the list could be kept if the common list selection criteria were applied (i.e., entries only for those organizations with a dedicated
Knowledge article) and the
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Because IAR only applies when there's not another way to do something and when the something we're doing is clearly supported by the other pillars, and here there are clear alternative that follows the rules and I don't see any attempt to use the pillars supporting this.
909:- all the entries are notable and sourceable; the list is sensible and not random; our core readership (students) are both most likely to need this list and most likely to attempt suicide; we should IAR once in a while; specific editing issues are not for AfD.
1002:
Keeping the article and fixing it will require removing the phone numbers, which would appear to make it useless for your purposes. If you are trying to prevent suicides, I suggest that moving it to
Knowledge: space will allow the phone numbers to be kept.
315:: I don't see how this is relevant, because the article does not express any point of view — it's just a list of organizations. Of course, those organizations have a particular point of view but that will be true of any coherent list of organizations.
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which provides such useful information as; "Grubitsch 'Grubbs' Grady was a typical 14 year old teenager until his parents and sister were killed by a demon master, Lord Loss." There are also many articles that are ludicrous to say the least such as
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on the basis of the added links that show notability Just as good as any other list of notable things. No need to invoke IAR for saying its useful--just the basic criteria for making a list of things notable enough to have
Knowledge articles.
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Mike told me about this. It's a list of mostly notable agencies, of a class - suicide crisis lines. Of course there should be such a list. If you've got a problem with the phone numbers, have that discussion on the article's talk page.
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does not tell someone to put one of those methods to use. Neither does a list of suicide crisis lines tell that person to call that line. In both cases though, having the article means someone seeking the information can find it.
167:
1054:, an article that you started, is somehow considered 'NOTABLE', whereas this one is NOT? Quite frankly, and again no offense I would say most people on the planet couldn't care less about who started Mr. Gay World.
676:, in my words, in an article and use the medical journals that plagiarized it from Knowledge as references. Unless you can say the same please don't preach to me about 'notability'. To satisfy the OMG a
672:
sure each one of those listings has been mentioned in various publications. As to whether or not I know the meaning of notability, yeah I do. Not to toot my own horn, but I can use my own definition of
885:- it certainly appears that most of the entries are notable entities. That makes this a useful navigational aid, aside from the possible help it might give someone needing one of those places.
1205:, for example, is primarily notable for his celebrated suicide. Would you pursuade other people in similar sitautions that they should not lay down their lives that their friends might live?
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P.S. The
Samaritans also operate local crisis line in the United States, I didn't know that and it could be an alternative to 800-273-TALK. Somebody COULD ADD THAT information.
1313:. If an individual has difficulty following basic Knowledge policy how can they possibly be in a position to be nominating articles for deletion? 13:41, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
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uses 'references' that are explanations of the Knowledge editor, which is tantamount to me making a contribution to a medical article and using as a reference; ref: -->
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945:. As much as I enjoy lighting my farts fire, I don't think there should be an article on it., and 'articles' like that don't do much for Knowledge's credibility.
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are the top two hits on a Google search for "suicide" and I do think there's a case for keeping this list so it can be linked from the top of those two pages.
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may be among the last if not the least article a suicidal person reads before they kill themselves. The Suicide article had 123,983 visits in the last 30 days
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Writing or providing material in hopes of preventing suicide is not within the scope of our project, which is to create an encyclopedia. This runs afoul of
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is not a valid argument in a deletion debate. If you have a problem with the notability of some other article, then go and improve its references, add a
1201:
Knowledge is not in the job of pushing your morals on other people. Suicide is an emotive subject in the Western world, but suicide is not always bad.
567:
1309:, winning an obscure contest does not constitute 'NOTABILITY', ...AND using a Twitter feed as a reference is of course also a violation of
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violation, the telephone numbers can be deleted. As far as the flags that's a trivial issue but what policy does that violate? Is there a
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may be able to offer some measure of relief. It does this merely by providing information. Knowledge is useless if your dead.
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There is a list of everything on Knowledge, many of them are lists of things that exist in the land of make-belive such as a
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Um, no offense at all Stuartyeates, to each his own, but could you possibly explain to me how the winner of 'Mr. Gay World'
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These are real world organizations of varying reknown, I am an American yet I am familiar with the Samaritans organization.
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1362:- most or all of the entities on this list are notable. Keeping the list does no harm, and might even do some good.
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Ok, its current state is still unacceptable, but you've convinced me that its problems are probably fixable.
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but remove non-notable entries and ensure that the phone numbers aren't added back, as per recent edits.
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per nom; listing telephone numbers for non-notable entities, no matter how well-intentioned, is textbook
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notable. I've Wikilinked the ones that have articles; I've not looked for notability in the others yet.
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is not a DIRECTORY. (God forbid). There is no rational basis, to delete this now. The article, a
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Indeed, I would be more sympathetic to the argument that deleting this article would violate
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794:(or redirecting from there). I figure (as others have said), if things like a list of
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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
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redirects. A directory of this sort is simply not an encyclopedia article.
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309:: not relevant because the article makes no predictions about the future.
479:. I suggest that it it is used for this purpose it needs to be moved to
202:. Even if the contact information were removed, it still wouldn't make
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lengthy and irrelevant personal attacks against multiple people removed
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1301:"Trust me, I know this" </ref. Which is of course a violation of
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How is it possible to compare the unique situation and actions of
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Listing suicide crisis lines is providing information for people.
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is an article about how to stop other people committing suicide.)
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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While there is know way to verify it, the Knowledge article on
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Question, how do you countenance the fact that there is a
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list of Behavioural science-related deletion discussions
649:-ish contact information and decorative flags removed. —
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violation, maybe we could work towards merging it with
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I don't see how it runs afoul of any of those policies.
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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, →
1154:Note: Notice of this discussion has been placed at
786:- Although I will say there is a strong case for
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1410:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1017:If the article's kept, I don't see why we can't
528:help save somebody's life. God for fucking bid.
1075:page is for discussing the nominated article. —
864:as a list of notable items - no need to invoke
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1127:Note: This debate has been included in the
1100:Note: This debate has been included in the
501:Note: This debate has been included in the
471:this page is currently being disccussed at
237:floodgates to a mass of other directories.
1129:list of Lists-related deletion discussions
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1057:You've been here long enough to know that
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373:I accept that people are unlikely to find
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568:Knowledge:Responding to threats of harm
1292:I deleted the telephone numbers, so a
844:if necessary, and improve as needed.
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1305:As to the winner of Mr. Gay World,
1021:and keep the 'phone numbers, too.
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1234:I like your morals, Dricherby. --
475:as a place to direct people from
1156:Knowledge talk:WikiProject Death
803:consequences of misinformation.
798:characters or a list of all the
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542:) 11:39, 29 May 2012 (UTC))
214:) 10:03, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
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1399:Please do not modify it.
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32:Please do not modify it.
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1207:Stuartyeates
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417:Talk:Suicide
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265:Talk:Suicide
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1077:Psychonaut
1066:notability
651:Psychonaut
572:WP:SUICIDE
444:Psychonaut
421:Psychonaut
273:Psychonaut
216:Psychonaut
208:Psychonaut
58:Sandstein
1404:talk page
1364:Maratrean
1325:7mike5000
1280:7mike5000
1222:Dricherby
1189:Dricherby
1023:Dricherby
987:7mike5000
972:7mike5000
788:WP:NOTDIR
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647:directory
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1265:Shalott
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409:Suicide
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361:Carrite
322:WP:NPOV
313:WP:NPOV
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168:WP refs
156:scholar
96:protect
91:history
1019:WP:IAR
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842:WP:IAR
840:, per
559:Delete
469:Rename
440:Delete
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140:Google
100:delete
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183:JSTOR
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117:views
109:watch
105:links
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