1536:, which has about 150 words in a preamble to a recipe, without giving any concrete information about what salty fingers are. I have been unable to find any other independent reliable sources with significant coverage. This hardly constitutes the significant coverage required, and is only one source. I held off from expressing a firm opinion previously because I had hoped that those editors who claimed that this was notable would respond to my analysis with better sources, because I recognise that there is a strong bias against gastronomy in Knowledge, but the only response has been misrepresentation and belligerence, so I can only conclude that they are unable to find such sources.
228:. For one has to distinguish between the article and its heading (taxonomy). Whilst the former focuses on the subject the latter focuses on the reader who seeks information. And the heading must be such that the reader will find the information sought. In fact, I have given it quite some heed when i decided for "Salty Fingers (plant)" rather than "Salty Fingers (vegetable)". However, "trademark" as a part of the title is very much beside what a reader needs. I would appreciate commets. Regards,
1878:. I like the name and it's general usage is interesting, the most common being in reference to the sea: The seas salty fingers reaching in to spoil drinking water for people. Norway's North Sea inlet fjords being referred to as salty fingers. Ocean fishermen using their salty fingers to clean fish, tie deft knots in their nets. "The sea breeze tangling its salty fingers through my hair." Salty fingers from eating peanuts from those little bowls set out in bars.
333:) and Haute Cuisine restaurants. It appears to me that it might be a succulent, halophyte plant that grows in salt marshes or mangroves. If so it might be similar to glasswort, pickleweed and samphire. It would be a Salicornia, thus. However, this is only my personal speculation and thus I didn't mention this in the article. Regards,
356:- the subject is notable and the references are reliable. Nowadays, one can find Salty Fingers on the menus of every other haute cuisine restaurant. Moreover, it is covered both by cooking documentaries and by cooking magazines. The references given are only a starting point. The article shall remain. A bientôt,
1174:
Yes I am saying that sources 1-8 certainly do not constitute sugnificant coverage, and that it would be a stretch to consider source 9 to do so. I haven't yet had time to write a detailed review of the additional sources listed in this article, but will try to get round to it today. I understand that
1159:
to have checked the references that have been provided in the discusssion. Your position does not sound plausible. And if you had a close look at ref 4. you would be able to see that Salty
Fingers and samphire are two different plants. I have advised you (and Victor) to do so days ago (see above) and
1626:
The subject itself is notable and the coverage is sufficient. I do not demand more references than were given in the article. Knowledge's key idea is to provide content rather than to prevent it. And a notable subject like Salty
Fingers must be kept. Apparently, this discussion has gone a little out
521:
Phil, I have read your comment now a few times and I still don't get the point. The key issue which I need your help with is "The Banner". Could you please tell me what you mean by it? However, in case you should refer to the first sentence (is that called a "Banner"?), which contains a reference to
498:
The Banner made the claim that this is samphire, not me. If I understand you correctly you are saying that the fact that the sources linked by The Banner are not about Salty
Fingers means that we should keep this article. That's very strange logic. What we need is significant coverage in independent
1889:
However, I didn't find anything on salty fingers related to the nominated AfD topic. I don't think the underlying plant is specific to
KoppertCress (there's no mention of the plant being patented), so there would be no reason to redirect the article to the Knowledge article on the underlying plant.
1448:
mentions salty fingers in passing without saying anything about them: "The pop-in-the-mouth dairy dainty was followed by a very tasty corn salad (200 baht if ordered a la carte) featuring tandoor-roasted corn kernels served with salty fingers and freeze-dried corn powder as a dry dressing." As with
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Watch your tongue! There was never any misrepresentation and belligerence. There is absolutely no justification for your wrongful accusations. But if you ever had a look at yourself you'd find yourself in quite an awkward position, for it was you to use intolerable and inappropriate language like
665:
which brings different varieties into the play. This said, I somehow wonder if the proprietor of the trademark even tend to sell different varities under the same trademark which would be an appripriate work-around in order to cater to seaonsonal availability of one variety or the other. However,
666:
even if all that were the case I still see a substantial added-value in a distinct article as it helps the user who wants to find information on Salty
Fingers which he or she may know from a restaurant's menu. Accordingly, this article could be biased into the culinary use of the plant. Regards,
562:
Thanks for the help, Phil. As the name "The Banner" was printed in gothic letters I didn't really read it. But for what concerns his remark I think you may misunderstand it a little. He does not say that Salty
Fingers is samphire - none of his references say so. But he points out that both (the
1897:
covers "Agricultural and horticultural products and grains not included in other classes, including fresh fruits, vegetables and microgreens," so I don't see this topic being limited to one, identified plant sold by
Koppert Cress B.V. I only found about eight articles having recipes that merely
1602:
And, as regards "childish" and "silly" (not "stupid"), I didn't direct those at any person, but at the name "salty fingers", and I stand by that. It's the type of name that a parent would use when trying to get children to eat something that they claim not to like. I can't, for the life of me,
1499:
That is not the salient point. As far as
Knowledge notability guidelines go the salient point is whether there has been significant coverage of the topic in multiple independent reliable sources. And, anyway, half a dozen or so is not "nearly every other haute cuisine restaurant", and I am not
1107:
6 mentions salty fingers in a caption, but the associated text mentions them as "Queller-Tempura". Dictionaries that I have consulted translate "Queller" as "samphire" or "salicornia", so this is referring to a dish of one of these plants in batter, not "a sea bean growing along the coasts of
1588:. An editor accused me of reiterating myself when my previous edits were a one-by-one analysis of the sources, which had not been performed previously in this discussion. Rather than just saying "the references are fine" tell us the specific references where my analysis is wrong.
563:
latter being called 'zeekraal') are being used in The
Netherlands. And his examples for zeekraal show that Salicornioideae find culinary use in haute cuisine restaurants. However, should there be proof for your hypothesis I would support to have both articles merged. A bientôt,
1480:
you have precisely covered (again) the salient point - "Salty
Fingers" is a plant which is an ingredient in nearly every other haute cuisine restaurant. Thank you so much. However, you are back where we started from. You truly have a tendency of reiterating yourself. Regards,
1525:
is that the "topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". My analysis of the sources offered in the article and in this discussion only finds one independent reliable source with as much as a sentence about salty fingers,
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Knowledge article. If we had more information on the scientific classification of the plant that is covered by the trademark, we may be able to find more information. As it stands, I don't see this plant/trademark topic receiving received significant coverage in
1890:
The article doesn't even mention the underlying plant (trade secret?) or its scientific classification, so its hard to tell. The product grows along the coasts of tropical America, but salty fingers is not US trademarked. (search "salty fingers" at
275:. This article should not be deleted because the plant, i.e. the topic in question, is of relevance and it is well-sourced. The references will show that "Salty Fingers" are a ingredient in Haute Cuisine. Apart from that, the nomination by
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article cited in the article it predates the trade mark application and doesn't capitalise the name, so it seems to be being used generically rather than for the specific KoppertCress commercial product that was the original subject of this
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is the edit where The Banner claimed that this was samphire, offering sources that are about samphire, not salty fingers. It is impossible to give this article proper consideration when you continually lie about what I have written.
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The meaningfulness of an article does not solely depend on a precise botanical classification. This holds in particular for a food-related article. But I agree that the botanical classification would be most helpful. A bientôt,
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1576:. Two editors (including you) accused me of repeating the claim that salty fingers and samphire are the same when I did no such thing, and concentrated on this false accusation rather than the substance of what I wrote.
877:). These references will show you that "Salty Fingers" are on the menu of nearly every other haute cuisine restaurant. There are more references still, but I think that these and the ones in the article shall suffice.
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article equates salty fingers with Queller-Tempura (samphire tempura), so, as our article is not about samphire, is using the phrase "salty fingers" to describe something other than the subject of our article.
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9 is the best of a bad bunch, with a few sentences about salty fingers in the preamble to a recipe. I note that it was published before the trade mark for this product was applied for. Borderline significant
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In fact, this article is about a plant which is sold under the name "Salty Fingers" which is a trademark. But it is a plant still. And for what concerns your request for sources, please have a look at (
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is using the phrase in a different sense, as it descibes the same thing in the text as "samphire tempura" and in the caption as "salty fingers". That source is therefore irrelevant to this article.
920:
This was already discussed above - the article is about a plant and a trademark which refers to that very plant. Secondly, I would appreciate if you didn't vandalise the article in future.
1906:
and there would be no reason to redirect Salty Fingers (plant) to koppertcress.com (a cool name). However, the Dutch vegetable and fruit producing company Koppert Cress appears to meet
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restaurants. As has been already mentioned below, trawling through the net you will find ample resources that confirm that Salty Fingers is on the menus of quite a many upmarket (e.g.
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1703:. Additionally, many further references are provided. The additional references to recipes and menus substantiate that the plant is a valid gastronomical subject. It passes
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is a mention in a recipe. Nothing beyong the two words "salty fingers", except that the appearance of samphire as another ingredient confirms that they are not the same.
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476:, it firstly, doesn't mention Salty Fingers, and secondly, it it about a samphire which grows in Europe. However, Salty Fingers grow in tropical Asia and America. So
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Commonly used ingredient in kitchens. Salty Fingers/Samphire (in Dutch: zeekraal) is used by restaurants with Michelin stars of with the Bib Gourmant, as mentioned
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544:"The Banner" is the editor who made the claim above that this is samphire, and claimed that sources about samphire demonstrate the notability of Salty Fingers.
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If we can't even confirm such basic facts as what plant species (singular or plural) this is then I don't see how we can have a meaningful article about it.
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Could you provide proof that "Salty Fingers" is samphire? As regards your comment below I doubt it but please feel free to provide it. And for what concerns
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references given and you really want to say that there is not significant coverage? This needs to be squared with your last sentence in which you concede
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you haven't done so, obviously. To sum up, nine sources (including two dependent sources) are coverage enough for any article at Knowledge. Regards,
607:
you will find that "zeekraal" and "Salty Fingers" are to differenr things in Dutch. However, both are being used just as "The Banner" said. Regards,
1461:
I think I've covered all of the sources that have been cited in either the article or this discussion. If I've missed any then please let me know.
1114:
8 is an advertisement in a blog, complete with "©Koppert Cress" and text directly translated from reference 3. Not reliable and not independent.
995:, I would consider any specific plant species as notable, but the lack of references in scientific/botanical publications gives me some doubts.
526:, please note that the reference says "...salicorne such as Samphire..." And this does not mean that "Salty Fingers" are samphire. A bientôt,
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Be aware that the article is about a plant which finds quite some culinary use. This is why I consider it of substantial added-value for
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In fact, I have wondered about this myself, but I can find absolutely nothing which would confirm this. And mind you, it might be either
1584:. You and another editor reopened an old discussion about whether salty fingers are samphire and then you twice accused me of doing so.
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has one sentence about salty fingers: "At the recent SIAL in Montreal, attendees sampled "Salty Fingers", a sea vegetable with crunch!".
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shall help you two in your discussion. It clearly shows that Salty Fingers is not samphire. I will add it to the article, too. Regards,
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Yes, you are quite right. The reasoning was rather short - I admit. Now, Salty Fingers are an ingredient in particular used by Chefs in
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keep bringing up this claim over and over. Now, kindly do not keep revisiting discussions that were closed long before. A bientôt,
835:), but what I can't identify from this discussion (nor easily in non-English sources) is whether sourcing really is sufficient for
1555:"childish" and "stupid". And now, you even resort to libel. Besides, your analysis is wrong - the references are fine. A bientôt,
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4 is an advertisement with no content about salty fingers apart from a picture. Not independent and not significant coverage.
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I've spent long enough on this for the moment, but will check though the other sources listed in this discussion later.
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Relister's comment - There's obviously nothing wrong with having both a botanical article and a culinary article (e.g.,
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irrelevant, which I no Frenchman would ever do. I start to have quite a many doubts as regards "Phil"... A bientôt,
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reiterating myself, as this is the first time I have provided a detailed review of each of the sources offered.
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1 is a blog with an eleven-word sentence about salty fingers. An unreliable source without significant coverage.
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It is irrelevant when it is writing about a dish of samphire tempura, not the plant described in this article.
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articles don't have as much as a sentence about salty fingers, so how is that significant coverage? And the
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imagine why a serious restaurant would want to use such baby-talk in a menu that's written for adults.
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can hardly deal with Salty Fingers. In so far, Salty Fingers need an article all by itself. A bientôt,
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It is Akolyth and you who have reopened old arguments - I simply provided an analysis of the sources.
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I am not making any claim that salty finders is samphire. As I explained above that claim was made by
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OK, let's take a look at the available sources. From the article (using the reference numbering from
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5 mentions salty fingers in a recipe, but says nothing more about them. Not significant coverage.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
287:. He has also requested speedy deletion. A glance at my and his talk page will confirm this.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Is this anything other than a silly trendy name for samphire? If not it should be merged.
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Salty Fingers and samphire are different plants - that is precisely what shows that the
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tropical America and Asia". Not about this topic, and not significant coverage anyway.
898:. A non-notable trademark for a non-notable product sold by a non-notable company! --
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Since when are blogs reliable? With most sources cited there is no editorial control.
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This product, as well as its makers, do not meet notability guidelines as set out in
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Now let's look at the additional sources that have been offered in this discussion:
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In addition to the aforesaid, I have found another product called Salty Fingers (
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1257:. We've been through all of this. So let's simply keep the article. A bientôt,
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I have initiated a sockpuppet investigation in relation to this discussion at
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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
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or not, on which there's some asserted disagreement but no real discussion.
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Again, kindly refrain from reopening arguments solved long ago. A bientôt,
1297:"The Banner" has not made such a claim. This was discussed above. However,
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mentions the commercial farming (!) and promotion in the Dutch province of
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Phil, you are continously re-iterating one and only one argument which is
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http://www.kloster-hornbach.de/en/restaurants/gourmet-restaurant/refugium
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http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/11077034/Salty_Fingers/showimage.html
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2 is a trademark listing. A primary source without significant coverage.
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is merely a retaliation for the fact that I object his vandalism w.r.t
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You may not demand more coverage in independent reliable sources, but
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irrelevant is most imaginative!!! That is tantamount to considering
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is a mention on a menu, with no content other than these two words.
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is right. Nine sources (incl. two dependent sources) are enough.
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Pls note the article is not about a plant but about a trademark.
1944:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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56:- marginal sources, but a clear majority in favour of deletion.
224:. When this discussion is finished, I shall remove the page to
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3 is from the trademark holder's web site. Not independent.
1279:, rendering the sources that he or she listed irrelevant.
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Please read the discussion above, noting who wrote what.
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I have redirected the page to where it belongs. Regards,
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about this 8-month-old trademark for a plant/ingredient.
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To consider germany's most distinguished newspaper, the
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In the meantime, the nominator has moved the article to
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Significant coverage in reliable sources, such as the
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are about samphire, with no mention of salty fingers.
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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —
1910:, so those of you iVoting keep may want to write a
809:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
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list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions
1885:. Salty fingers that comes from making ice cream.
1812:. Hope that this longwinding case will come to a
1426:menus that do no more than mention salty fingers.
1147:. And only for sources 3 and 8 your statement is
250:) which makes it mandators to remove the page to
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1958:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1902:," so it is unlikely koppertcress doesn't meet
1855:Knowledge:Sockpuppet investigations/MountWassen
54:Knowledge:Sockpuppet investigations/MountWassen
1882:being long, salty fingers of soft ground beef.
738:list of Business-related deletion discussions
189:
8:
736:Note: This debate has been included in the
716:Note: This debate has been included in the
1521:. Time to come off the fence. The test for
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1151:. Now let's have a look at it. There are
961:The article is about a plant. A bientôt,
778:This issue was already discussed above.
305:The first part of your argument is that
1898:mention an ingredient "available from
7:
1668:Knowledge's definition of notability
1012:Salty Fingers is a notable plant.
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450:We already have an article about
391:The sources are fine. A Bientôt,
1707:and is thus within the scope of
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
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1975:
1251:completly wrong assumption
1894:). The European trademark
1145:Not significant coverage'
222:Salty Fingers (trademark)
80:Salty Fingers (trademark)
1947:Please do not modify it.
1249:is simply repeating his
603:Having a look at p24 of
32:Please do not modify it.
1432:from a web site called
581:The following table on
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1641:
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1590:Phil Bridger
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1531:
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1443:
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583:Seavegetable
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1921:independent
1844:) has made
1798:MountWassen
1739:) has made
1655:) has made
1040:) has made
1030:MountWassen
1014:MountWassen
663:Sarcocornia
254:. Regards,
163:free images
1929:Uzma Gamal
1872:Delete all
1810:The Banner
1794:SirAppleby
1790:CeesBakker
1729:SirAppleby
1713:SirAppleby
1645:CeesBakker
1629:CeesBakker
1523:notability
659:Salicornia
431:The Banner
309:, then? -
1952:talk page
1919:that are
1627:of hand.
1118:coverage.
997:Cavarrone
742:• Gene93k
722:• Gene93k
52:. After
37:talk page
1954:or in a
1842:contribs
1737:contribs
1653:contribs
1456:article.
1255:samphire
1199:Le Monde
1053:Relisted
1038:contribs
908:contribs
800:Relisted
524:sea bean
452:samphire
124:View log
39:or in a
1802:Akolyth
1788:as per
1530:in the
1483:Akolyth
1478:Comment
1442:in the
1406:sources
1243:Akolyth
1240:Comment
1162:Akolyth
993:Neutral
980:Akolyth
976:Comment
959:Comment
922:Akolyth
879:Akolyth
780:Akolyth
762:Mootros
758:Comment
668:Akolyth
609:Akolyth
587:Akolyth
426:Zeeland
375:Mootros
371:Comment
335:Akolyth
289:Akolyth
277:Mootros
256:Akolyth
230:Akolyth
218:Comment
204:Mootros
169:WP refs
157:scholar
97:protect
92:history
1925:WP:GNG
1908:WP:GNG
1904:WP:GNG
1876:WP:GNG
1705:WP:GNG
1670:does.
1519:Delete
896:Delete
141:Google
101:delete
50:delete
1927:. --
1418:These
1403:three
1400:These
184:JSTOR
145:books
129:Stats
118:views
110:watch
106:links
16:<
1933:talk
1892:TESS
1863:talk
1838:talk
1822:talk
1816:now
1814:keep
1786:Keep
1773:talk
1756:and
1750:The
1733:talk
1717:talk
1699:and
1689:Keep
1676:talk
1649:talk
1633:talk
1624:Keep
1609:talk
1594:talk
1561:talk
1542:talk
1506:talk
1487:talk
1467:talk
1449:the
1424:more
1412:This
1394:This
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1348:talk
1330:talk
1321:This
1307:talk
1285:talk
1263:talk
1221:talk
1207:talk
1185:talk
1166:talk
1153:nine
1131:talk
1034:talk
1018:talk
1010:Keep
1001:talk
984:talk
967:talk
944:talk
926:talk
904:talk
883:talk
875:ref6
871:ref5
867:ref4
863:ref3
859:ref2
855:ref1
841:Wily
837:WP:N
831:vs.
829:beef
811:Wily
784:talk
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726:talk
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613:talk
591:talk
569:talk
550:talk
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509:talk
486:talk
460:talk
437:talk
418:here
416:and
414:here
410:Keep
397:talk
379:talk
362:talk
354:Keep
339:talk
293:talk
281:talk
273:Keep
260:talk
234:talk
208:talk
177:FENS
151:news
114:logs
88:talk
84:edit
58:Wily
1764:FAZ
1563:)
1421:are
1350:)
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1299:you
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1157:not
833:cow
661:or
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126:•
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