1663:. Possibly rename. The article itself is okay but like most new articles is in need of a bit of work. Chesdovi however is quite clearly a bad faith editor who has obviously created this article in order to "stick it" to the "Zionists", whom he opposes ideologically, and rather uncivilly. (I have collapsed his and others' less helpful contributions to this AfD.) Suspicions of a potential POV fork are not totally without merit, and the locus of the article needs to be sorted pronto, as it was probably intended to create an opening to extend its content into the modern
593:'s long history of cherrypicking sources and individual statements from those sources to put together an article that looks well-sourced, while in reality it is his synthesis which builds the article about what is in reality non-subject. It is awful that someone should good good academic sources to make a political statement based on a choice of words as opposed to the intention of those sources. At least we shouldn't lend a hand to those efforts. Come on guys,
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Slovakia, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Iceland and Sweden. The nom is saying "I don't like the editor - let's delete". This is one of the most procedurally flawed and despicable nominations I have ever seen. It is shameful. I believe this nom meets the criteria for a speedy keep set out at
1479:"The nomination was unquestionably made for the purposes of vandalism or disruption and, since questionable motivations on the part of the nominator do not have a direct bearing on the validity of the nomination, no uninvolved editor has recommended deletion as an outcome of the discussion. For example:
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POINTY POV, this is part of a slew of articles created by an editor who seems to have a serious beef with Israel so much so that his main goal is to use
Knowledge to delegitimize Israel at every opportunity. He takes a few sources, strings them together and tries to make an article out out something
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I think we could merge, redirect or rename, if you take a look at those not in favor of keeping, there is a consensus to take some of the content, salvage and merge either into Wine in the Middle East or something along those lines, but as it stands now, the article is most certainly POV and should
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take a look at his other articles he created. It's hard to AGF. This has nothing to do with the IP conflict but an internal Jewish debate and he is taking an extreme minority fringe opinion. Sure, this article has some history to it. But an
Israeli Wine article is the place for a section on Israeli
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This has nothing to do with the West Bank. Look at
Chesdovi's contributions. He has an extreme POV and COI and he should not be editing articles about Israel. Half of this article could be about Israeli wine, yet it's in this subject, merely because he does want to deligitimize Israel because he is
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article. This article should perhaps be renamed something suitable to avoid confusion; I honestly suspect fostering such confusion was in fact a partial motivation of the article creator. Blurring the clear lines between the historical
Palestine and the decidedly modern State of Palestine is a key
1474:
nom. Palestine exists. It IS NOT part of Israel. Palestine is recognised by 70.5% of all UN members including major world and regional powers such as
Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Russia, South Africa and China. A number of European countries, such as Malta, Serbia, Cyprus, Czech Republic,
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I didn't mean, wine by country, I meant on the history of the wine by country. The whole article is just a way for the author to avoid saying Israel is a country. Would you not say this should belong in
History of Kosher wine or History of Israeli wine or something similar? Does any other country
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Lol, so now we are going to merge all Middle East wines to appease partisans. I see no point in taking any action to appease any partisan of either side because nothing is going to appease either side. By the way, seriously you found Taybeh winery for
Palestinian wine but not Cremisian Winery? I
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I could go for this, I think some of the sources are valid and while the intent is of course to avoid using the
Zionist Entity's name, if we take the sources and redirect to Wine in the Middle East we can expand that article to a nice decent article. A good chunk of this article is about the ME
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I agree with Zero that a redirect to
Israeli wines is out of the question. But I also agree with Sir Joseph that this editor has a severe case of POV, and has been promoting the term "Palestinian" completely out of context in many articles over the years. This is just the most recent, and most
1088:
This content and its references should not be lost. I don't want (and don't think there is any good reason) for this to become involved in the politics between Israel and
Palestine. We should bridge that gap. However, We should relish and promote the distinctions and not bury or homogenize
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Regardless of my suspicions about Chesdovi's motivation in creating this article, I respectfully disagree with the nom that it's a POV fork, There's virtually no overlap between the two articles except, as I noted, what I think is inappropriate overreach in the article about Israeli wine.
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Yoninah, there is also no such thing as the "Israeli people" in a historical context either. Nor the "Italian people" before the mid-19th century. The list is endless. What "Palestinian" means in this context is "from Palestine." It is distinct from the concept of a Palestinian nation.
549:. This article appropriately covers the period before 1948, when the area that is now Israel and Palestine was nearly universally referred to in English as Palestine. It should be expanded to cover viticulture in the West Bank and Gaza, if there is any. What is inappropriate is for
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Come on yourself! I have tons of articles and books on my computer that mention wine making in "Palestine" without even needing to go to the web. And charges of cherry-picking mean nothing without examples. It seems you are also more concerned with the author than the content.
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Palestinians can drink as much wine as they like. Muslims are. Some anyway. There is debate that wine is just fine. Some Orthodox Christians of Palestine have started a winery as is linked above. They also have a Brewery there that is ties to the same owners as I
1612:
you can find proof that the Jewish wine growers of late Ottoman Palestine called it Palestinian wine in English, German, French and Yiddish. Search of the Palestine Post proves that the same is true in English during the British Mandate.
510:. Actually your overall assessment of Chesdovi is completely wrong and you should stop shooting insults at people you don't understand. Since when is wine produced before Israel existed "Israeli wine" anyway? It doesn't make sense.
1206:
I notice that the history section of the Israeli wine contains the the history of the wine before an Israel existed. It would seem more appropriate to put it on a Palestinian history page or to combine both listings and rename them
353:
Who said anything about delegitimizing Israel? Obscene remarks. You want to deny the existence of the West Bank? Or do you want to deny that the lands consisting modern day Israel were most recently called Palestine?
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considering that the article is mostly about kosher wine since Palestinians don't drink wine, you can certainly see why the article had a pov, why not call it history of kosher wine, or something similar?
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part of a group of Jews who does deligitimize Israel. So yes, it is obscene and I hope you would agree with me that someone who shares that opinion shouldn't be editing articles about the region.
1508:, there is no such thing as the "Palestinian people" in a historical context. This article is about the history of wine in a region which the foreign powers labeled "Palestine" after the ancient
1428:
issue. The merging is not a right argument either. Palestinian wines are not Israeli wines and Israel is not Palestine. Why not merging Spanish, French and Italian wines in European wine ?
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in the year 50 CE. And last time I checked, we don't tolerate place name anachronisms within articles which are intended to subvert the truth and crush cultural identities on Knowledge.
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1626:, but that doesn't mean they called it that during the Roman and Greek period? Certainly you can see how this article might be better suited merged, if you don't want it deleted.
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not notable at all. This article is a POV fork of Israeli wine and it expands on it solely as a fork to bash Israel. No other country has such an article on the history of wine.
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1667:, and advance the idea that it is in fact this state that is the true "legitimate" successor to the Mandate and the historical region. User Makeandtoss has already begun
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is ridiculous. Besides that, a AfD nomination consisting almost entirely of an attack on the motives of another editor should lead to a speedy close if not sanctions.
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majority of high quality English sources. It's as simple as that. If you have an actual argument for deletion or merging, it's high time that you tell us what it is.
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b) nominations which are made solely to provide a forum for disruption, e.g. when a contestant in an edit war nominates an opponent's userpage solely for harassment"
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AusLondoner missed the point, but I'm not sure if that is worse than getting the point and still voting against an article topic that is so obviously legitimate.
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has been noted for their wine over the ages. Is there any logic to derail this reality other than contemporary politics, or that the OP simply holds the original
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1424:. Per Kendrick7. This article is well sourced and the topic is relevant. No argument is provided by the editors supporting the deletion. It seems to be a
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seems like a fork of the latter two articles. I agree with Sir Joseph that this article is a way of avoiding any reference to "Israel".
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Considering that you added one tiny section to a huge article about historical stuff, would you support Yoninah's suggestion above?
935:? None! Should we AFD Israeli wine since it is a way to "avoid saying a country"? Just take a look at this line from that article:
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to encompass the historical connotations of the wine produced here, besides its modern-day "boutique wine" image. Otherwise,
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Cannot believe the comments made be the nom suggesting having a page about Palestinian wine is "de-legitimising" Israel.
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didn't explain the keep vote but seems like everyone else has done so well in that.There's enough justification to keep.
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By all means, have your article on wine made in Israel. But why deny a page about wine made in Palestine? There was no
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1445:. This is a legitimate topic. Let's not make Israel/Palestine topics on Knowledge more loaded than they already are.
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But there was no "Israel" in Roman times, only Judea or Palestine! The hypocrisy here has a debilitating stench.
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and who cosy up to the proponents of secular Zionism whose aim is the destruction of Judaism? Self-hating Jews?
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I just added a modern industry section. Now I fail to see any reason on why the article should be removed.
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A clarification will need to be added to the lead vis-à-vis Israeli wine and Palestinian wine post 1948.
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to pretend there was such a thing as Israeli wine during biblical times or at any other time before 1948.
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not stand. Based on your comments, I would ask you to change your keep to a merge, redirect or rename.
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A tiny section can be expanded. All countries have similar articles, Palestine should be no exception.
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The article content ends before the state of Israel was created, so the claim that this is a fork of
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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1466:- you are de-legitimising Palestine and the Palestinian people yourself with this shameful,
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What would you call Jews who march with Holocaust deniers and the destruction of Israel?
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334:- please take your head out of your rear. Palestine and Israel are separate countries.
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There is absolutely no reason to not call the historic region by the name used by the
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That's because it's an article about Israeli Wine. Are you purposely being daft?
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tactic of anti-Zionist and Palestinian nationalist editors on Knowledge.
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Nomination seems pointy. As for "No other country has such an article",
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Lol, let me guess. You call these group of people self-hating Jews? --
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My pleasure. Anytime. Though I'm not sure if you also want to merge
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lol, and if we don't the partisans of both sides will still go nuts.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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of course. All citations are sourced to "Palestinian wine".
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distinct viticultural districts, histories and heritages.
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Now the Zionists claim to have supplanted Palestine's vine
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I didn't vote against it, I suggested merging it with
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And do you similarly advocate redirecting and merging
668:– still the preferred choice for British Jews. Cheers!
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have such a convoluted and expanded history section?
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too? If not, you should explain the inconsistency.
1052:Yes, go on, anything to remove Palestine from your
931:...And how many times is "Palestine" referenced in
574:looks a legitimate article to me. - üser:Altenmann
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list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions
1225:LOL. If we try to combine these into a history of
506:Take a look at the way you are carrying on. Read
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1782:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1412:used as a valid excuse to delete their work. --
1712:Could probably simply subtitle the older stuff
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437:"Jews"? And what do you call Jews who deny the
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1396:has existed for over a thousand years, and,
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291:Note: This debate has been included in the
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257:Note: This debate has been included in the
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720:Pressed from grapes grown in the holy earth
710:Centuries before Israel appeared on the map
242:list of Israel-related deletion discussions
1716:. Subtitle the modern section accordingly.
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1404:of the article in low esteem? I've seen
314:. Potentially merge some of the content.
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949:with the most sought after wines being
751:But we will always remember fondly our
1392:Seems to be a reasonable article; the
1268:You will notice above a suggestion to
909:. The latter article could be renamed
1547:. Obviously it's a legitimate topic.
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392:Inflammatory and unhelpful discussion
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1408:a lot on AfD; but I've never seen
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1317:Thank you for proving my point.
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1398:like many regions of the world
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1516:. Did you read the article?
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1512:, and which in fact is the
1204:Redirect, merge, and rename
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1177:Well said. You tell them.
439:Genocide in the Holy Land
1771:Please do not modify it.
1410:I don't like that editor
870:Category:Wine by country
32:Please do not modify it.
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1561:Do you propose merging
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1673:Israeli wine
1660:
1643:overwhelming
1642:
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1563:Israeli wine
1491:AusLondonder
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1293:Israeli wine
1269:
1207:accordingly.
1203:
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933:Israeli wine
907:Israeli wine
898:
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692:eternal sign
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551:Israeli wine
547:Israeli wine
542:
475:Israeli wine
470:
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336:AusLondonder
312:Israeli wine
307:
228:Everymorning
207:
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133:
49:
47:
31:
28:
1510:Philistines
1460:Speedy keep
1161:Makeandtoss
1114:Makeandtoss
943:from Israel
939:Roman times
849:understand.
832:Makeandtoss
406:Makeandtoss
356:Makeandtoss
172:free images
1750:Sir Joseph
1701:Sir Joseph
1628:Sir Joseph
1319:Sir Joseph
1278:Sir Joseph
1235:not grapes
1146:Sir Joseph
1019:Sir Joseph
979:Sir Joseph
887:Sir Joseph
825:Yeah, no.
812:Sir Joseph
808:commenting
725:It filled
493:Sir Joseph
424:Sir Joseph
375:Sir Joseph
280:Sir Joseph
263:Sir Joseph
246:Sir Joseph
211:Sir Joseph
1776:talk page
1477:WP:SKCRIT
1468:WP:POINTy
1430:Pluto2012
1414:Kendrick7
1239:Kendrick7
955:winemaker
678:produced
599:Debresser
522:Debresser
330:Hi there
316:Zigzig20s
37:talk page
1778:or in a
1734:Chesdovi
1581:Chesdovi
1342:Chesdovi
1301:Chesdovi
1179:Chesdovi
1132:Chesdovi
1058:Chesdovi
994:Chesdovi
965:Chesdovi
784:Chesdovi
767:Chesdovi
635:Chesdovi
443:Chesdovi
308:Redirect
131:View log
39:or in a
1606:Comment
1549:Yoninah
1518:Yoninah
1110:Comment
1040:failure
959:amphora
951:vintage
941:, wine
919:Yoninah
762:L'Chaim
688:kiddush
178:WP refs
166:scholar
104:protect
99:history
54:King of
1747:WP:CIR
1447:gidonb
1402:author
1237:). --
629:ALERT:
627:WP:CAN
587:Delete
508:WP:NPA
471:Oppose
351:Oppose
231:(talk)
150:Google
108:delete
1608:. In
1565:into
1340:too.
875:pablo
576:: -->
563:Stalk
193:JSTOR
154:books
138:Stats
125:views
117:watch
113:links
16:<
1738:talk
1722:talk
1686:talk
1661:Keep
1647:Zero
1615:Zero
1585:talk
1571:Zero
1553:talk
1536:Zero
1522:talk
1495:talk
1470:and
1451:talk
1443:Keep
1434:talk
1422:Keep
1390:Keep
1365:talk
1346:talk
1336:and
1305:talk
1256:talk
1213:talk
1200:Keep
1183:talk
1165:talk
1136:talk
1118:talk
1082:Keep
1062:talk
998:talk
969:talk
945:was
937:"In
923:talk
855:talk
836:talk
794:Zero
790:here
788:See
771:talk
686:For
654:Keep
639:talk
618:Zero
603:talk
572:keep
543:Keep
526:talk
512:Zero
479:Zero
447:talk
410:talk
360:talk
340:talk
320:talk
297:Zero
186:FENS
160:news
121:logs
95:talk
91:edit
50:keep
1295:to
1272:to
1202:or
1084:or
1038:AGF
901:to
597:?!
310:to
200:TWL
129:– (
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71:♠
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68:♣
63:♦
58:♥
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