Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Principality of Sealand

2024:, since that page links to the rival claims to the "Principality of Sealand" which anyone can find on the web. By not including that material it implies that Knowledge has made some sort of decision as to which claim to the name "Principality of Sealand" is the true claim. Since neither Bates nor his rivals have gone into a court of law (how could they?) to sort their claims out, then Knowledge should not be adding to the fantasy by making its own defacto ruling in favor of Bates. The entire saga is foolish and it has generated fraud all over the place. Because I have been repeatedly challenged to document my assertion to 1855:

hoax and a scam. It has resulted in no end of harm and financial loss and fraud. There is not just one "Principality of Sealand" claim, either. There are two of them and they are related, but until I put it on Knowledge it was not there. Only the POV Bates story was there. However, before I had a chance to turn the stub of the German "Principality of Sealand" into a full article, one person had marked it for deletion and two others were debating it by the time I uploaded the full article! What kind of reasoning is this? People want to edit and delete without even reading the material in the first place?

1118:

fraud and fantasy of the article. By this I refer to the admission by Ryan Lackey that Roy Bates had lied to him and that he had lost a lot of money over the Havenco project. The lie was concerning the concealment of the 1990-1991 USA court case. Why does anyone want to preserve the pretense of this fantasy which has turned into a fraud without documenting that it is a fantasy and a fraud? You don't start out an intelligent article by trying to disprove a fantasy, you merely state the reality and fit the fantasy into it and allow the reader to draw their own conclusions.

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of Sealand". I do NOT deny any of that because they are facts. What I do deny is that the Royal Navy barge is anything other than a Royal Navy barge and I also deny that a pint of beer or whatever else Roy Bates was drinking at the time, gave him any authority to turn his "British subject" wife (at that time) into a "royal princess", or that he could copy Her Majesty the Queen who was about to name (at that time) her son as the Prince of the Principality of Wales and name himself the "prince" of the "Principality of Sealand" with anything more tongue in cheek laughter.

577:, my answer is that I have personal knowledge of the fraud and financial harm that has already been caused by the so-called "Principality of Sealand" entity. My experience is first hand. I have indeed spoken to Roy, Joan and Michael Bates. I have also communicated with Ryan Lackey and I have read what he has to say. I have heard from HM Treasury Solicitor (and many other UK governmental and legal entitities) on this matter who told my associates that the claims made for the "Principality of Sealand" are in his word and I quote: " 1724:- not by anything that Bates put in the water. In fact he was warned not to do so and he did not do so. However, like any squatter Bates only has control of the vessel, not the sand or sea bed under the vessel and the Crown Estates do claim that territory. I agree with you that this is not the proper forum for this exchange, but I am pleased to see that this spirit of agreement is continuing and it is certainly one that I feel both happy and comfortable in cooperating with. Please have a look at the article on 1831:. I incline toward the latter treatment for "Sealand". As for disputes over how we discuss Sealand, such as whether to use a particular word or to call someone "Head of State" (which you mention below), I express no opinion about any of the specifics, because I haven't taken time to read your arguments or anyone else's. Your solution doesn't magically dissolve those problems, though. If some editors want to say "Head of State" and some don't, that disagreement will persist whether the title is 581:". He was speaking for and on behalf of HM Crown. I have personally investigated most of the legal claims and one the most important is one that was issued by the USA at federal court level with UK participation in 1990-1991. It has never been challenged by the Bates family and it states that the "Principality of Sealand" does not exist. It was that legal opinion which Ryan Lackey cites as one reason for him to quit and accuse the Bates family of lying to him. 566:

facts about the so-called "Principality of Sealand". I will draw your attention to the fact that this person has already become embroiled in disputes with other writers. I did my best to communicate with Gene Poole on a friendly basis only to find that he was then posting comments of his own in article updates in which he would substitute his own for mine by calling my own "hysterical". I hardly think that is objective or friendly.

1434:"I hereby declare that I maintain the disputes raised before regarding the POV nature of the term "micronation" as used here, contrary to its dictionary meaning, as well as regarding the misinformation link to Gene Poole's website that mixes real entities like Biafra and Katanga, which led to wars causing the deaths of millions, with trivial nonsense like his apartment-empire Atlantium. Gzornenplatz 13:37, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)" 855:

British Army and he claims to have defended it again during the Falklands War. However, Bates then claims that Rough(s) Tower is an island fortress when in fact it is a sunken barge with a superstructure above the waterline. He states that it was “abandoned to the jurisdiction of the High Seas” which is totally untrue as evidenced by the UK Ministry of Defence buoys that surround the sunken barge on Rough Sands sandbar.

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to debate that which is commonly accepted as reality with someone who chooses to have an aggressive and none too kind self-appointed interpretation of reality. To me such discussions belong with debates about whether we are living on a flat or a global planet. Mr. Poole then turns around and accuses anyone with a contrary opinion as expressing a POV while attempting to leave the impression that he is the authority on

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real world and produce real publications and artefacts and conduct real activities, meetings and general interactions with other real people. The very fact of their existence is a legitimate subject of reportage in Wiki. He suggests that because these groups embrace eccentric non-mainstream opinions the groups themselves do not exist, which is a logical fallacy. --

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strident, longwinded, bombastic manner, as I note, you have also done above. Furthermore, my pointing out to you your failure to grasp simple legal concepts, and recommending that you cease defaming people does not constitute abuse; it constitutes sound advice. Need I remind you that not only did you initially claim that defamation

1117:

To merely redirect means to delete and since the proper name of the article is the name of the article you want to delete, that does not make sense. Then there is the issue of content. There seem to be a number of people who are more intent on deleting content than admitting content which reveals the

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exists, but I am denying that a Flat Earth exists! I am NOT denying that Roy Bates was in a pub when he told reporters that he told his wife Joan that he would make her a princess. I am not denying that Roy Bates began to claim that the Royal Navy barge that he was squatting upon is the "Principality

509:. I have now discovered that I am one in a long line of contributors who has run afoul of this same person. I had no idea at the time that anyone cared about a pecking order, I saw it as a duplication to cause more problems and that was my mistake in understanding the intent at the time. That is all. 1176:

This article page was created specifically for an article about the "Principality of Sealand". However, at this time there is no entry on the Principality of Sealand page other than a redirect to a page named Sealand. That page contains partial disambiguation and the article about the "Principality

976:

If I'm reading this correctly, this person has already contributed heavily to the actual Sealand article, and this is just a rant that they wouldn't let him/her put in. If that's the case then there's probably nothing to merge. Plus, I know redirects are cheap, but who the hell would ever type in

830:

Okay, here's Gene Poole again trying to claim POV is the same thing as factual evidence while confusing the issue. What he stated is NOT what I am stating. I am not stating that "it" does not exist. What I am stating is that a sunken barge exists and that in law a sunken barge is not real property.

633:

Finally, I decided not to contribute further to the error based page because of the fact that Gene Poole has decided to attack anyone who dares to point out that his own POV in this matter is based upon fantasy and error? I am more than happy to have an intelligent discussion, but I am not prepared

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1854:

The problem with what you are advocating is that you have not taken time to read this topic which is rubbish. But it is more rubbish and that is why I am trying to resolve this mess. In this instance this particular use of the word "Sealand" relates only to the "Principality of Sealand" which is a

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If you look at the history of the Principality page, you see that the page used to be a redirect. The redirect is much older than the article that is there now. Since "Principality of Sealand" is the name used by some of the involved parties I would suggest to keep. As you see redirects are cheap.

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Sealand was founded on the principle that any group of people dissatisfied with the oppressive laws and restrictions of existing nation states may declare independence in any place not claimed to be under the jurisdiction of another sovereign entity. The location chosen was Roughs Tower, an island

1971:

By including the side bar showing a "Head of State", etc., it implies that Knowledge is acknowledging that more than a fantasy entity exists called the "Principality of Sealand" because in the body of the article it goes to great lengths to describe how others have used the name and that the name

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Roy Bates exists, the Flat Earth Society exists (or has existed) and a sunken Royal Navy barge exists on Rough Sands sandbar marked by UK Ministry of Defence buoys. But Roy Bates is no prince and the Earth is not flat and the barge is not an island and the buoys prove that it was never abandoned.

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is a fantasy, in order to demonstrate that Sealand is also a fantasy, while the truth of the matter is that the Flat Earth Society has a documented historic existence, exactly as Sealand does. Like Sealand, the Flat Earth Society is (or was) a real, organised group of real people who exist in the

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Comment: Please do not misrepresent the views of others. Numerous editors have disagreed with your POV concerning Sealand on the Sealand talk page, not just me. You elected not to address them with supporting documenatary or other citations, but instead simply repeated your POV in an increasingly

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I "cared about it", as you put it, because what would in the ordinary sense be a normal editing job in either contributing new material or revising material became subjected to a hostile attack on me by the person identified by you. The key to the hostility swirls around the fact that this entire

2031:

I do not believe that it is a sensible course of action for Knowledge to take sides in a POV dispute as to who is the legitimate owner of a fantasy country which has no basis in reality. It is what it is: a former Royal Navy barge partially submerged in British territorial waters on Rough Sands,

731:. Obviously, we cannot allow duplicates of articles with each having a different POV. I'm not expert on this subject matter so won't comment on which article is more NPOV. If there's nothing sensible to merge or if attempt of merging results in a flamewar, then just convert this into a redirect. 565:

I will not comment in depth on the merits of the "Principality of Sealand" within this discussion since it limited to the issue of the status of an article. However, I do wish to point out that the person calling himself Gene Poole has chosen to attack me personally for merely posting documented

80:. Obviously, we cannot allow duplicates of articles with each having a different POV. I'm not expert on this subject matter so won't comment on which article is more NPOV. If there's nothing sensible to merge or if attempt of merging results in a flamewar, then just convert this into a redirect. 854:

The problem with that statement is that it is untrue on its face. Roy Bates, who is British, has gone to great lengths to state that he is proud to be British. He has made no attack on Britain because it is an “oppressive” nation, just the opposite is true. He defended the UK when he was in the

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Ok, bear with me. Although I still think 'merge and redirect', I'd like to get an understanding of what the real problem is. I've read both pages and some of the talk pages but I was not present during the discussions. To me they both articles seem reasonably npov. Although the Sealand page is

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This 39 kB page is impractical to scan for the progress of the VfD debate. This section extracts the nomination & entries that cast non-superceded votes. Note that the explanations of votes may not make sense outside their context; to see them in their respective contexts, dive into the

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is grinding. His position boils down to the claim that because Sealand is not a natural island it does not exist. Obviously it does exist, irrespective of whether it is a natural island or not. He does not seem to understand the difference between de facto existence and de jure existence.

588:". According to Mr. Poole a "micronation" is not an actual nation or even a recognized nation or even peoples like the Kurds or Palestinians or any other controversial but real peoples that possess their own language and culture; in this case, according to the definition of Mr. Poole, a " 710:

I am happy to answer any questions regarding what I know about this subject, all I ask is that you treat me with the same respect that you would like to be treated with and that we stick to the universal understanding of what is accepted to be real and what is accepted to be unreal or

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but personal property. It is a former Royal Navy barge that sunk on Rough Sands. It is claimed by the UK Ministry of Defence as successor in interest to the UK Ministry of War who put it there, by means of clearly marked buoys paid for by UK taxpayers. (See the external links on the

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has already been incorporated into the original article. This new article simply represents his efforts to insinuate an unacceptably extremist POV on the subject into Wiki; that POV has not gained any form of consensus support when discussed at length on the original article's talk

952:? The correct name of the entity is "Principality of Sealand", because that is the name given to it by Roy Bates who claims ownership of the entity. His own web site also uses this name and this is the name used in his own logo. Therefore the logical thing to do is to merge the 918:

What bothers me is that this great encyclopedia is being subverted to report fantasy as fact or even place fact on the same level as fantasy so that the reader cannot determine which is true and in turn turns Knowledge into an unreliable joke. Now that bothers me because I love

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page exists? It contains many legitimate mainstream uses of the name "Sealand", not the fringe meaning that is attached to this one controversial entry? To do as you suggest would merely confuse matters more. Further, although I originally contributed heavily to the

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of that article uses the current content of Sealand (which I feel is the better page) as a starting point. You're welcome (and encouraged) to merge the content currently at Principality of Sealand into that article, providing other people agree with your changes.

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The original article has had dozens of contributors over a long period of time, and whilst it has not been without its controversies it does represent a good and fairly objective consensus of general opinion on the subject - including much useful data provided by

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article I eventually gave up when it became obvious that one person in particular had invented a word and definition which I cannot find in any other responsible dictionary and then implanted that page on Knowledge in order to support the nonsense on the

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With regards to misrepresentation, you were the one who hit me over the head with your interpretation of this word “micronation” to allow for a fantasy to be rebranded as a reality merely because the press has reported it and many people have read about

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I'm not sure I understand. This article claims to be the 'undisputed' version. Is that not true? Of course in the long term is does not make sense to have two articles on the same topic. So it should be merged. But as the

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I am in agreement with your idea to merge, but I suggest that since the proper title is "Principality of Sealand" that the "Sealand" page is merged and not the other way around. Before merging I also suggest that all

1744:. Our policy is not to put an article at the subject's correct legal name, but to put it at the most common name, the one a reader would be most likely to enter in the search box. (One commonly cited example: 379:. Our policy is not to put an article at the subject's correct legal name, but to put it at the most common name, the one a reader would be most likely to enter in the search box. (One commonly cited example: 638:, which he may very well be if he is the author of both the term and its definition. However, he has yet to convince the rest of the world that his view of reality is correct and that everyone else is in error. 675:

You brand my comments as “vanity” yet you claim to be an emperor of a “micronation” and proudly display a photograph of yourself in full regalia which is taken at your flat. A little hypocritical of you?

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I don't care what name the article takes, I explicitly stated that (I can see arguments both ways). My only real preference is that no matter what happens, one ends up redirecting to the other, and the

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belongs to a sort of "true government" versus an upstart government when in reality, there is no government because there is no population and there is no country called the "Principality of Sealand".

831:

It has nothing to do with defaco or dejure existence and neither have I EVER made such a claim. What I am stating is that the entity called "Principality of Sealand" is a fantasy on a level with the

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regarding solving this problem, please permit me to introduce the reason why there is a dispute in the first place. It concerns the very definition of the so-called "Principality of Sealand" on the

678:

You attack others as well as myself and find yourself embroiled in arbitration, yet you try to drag me into your disputes. My response has been to avoid you - until you began anew with this tirade.

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under the meaning of the law - it is a sunken ship occupied by squatters. Regarding reality and fantasy: This is what the Bates family have to say on their own "Principality of Sealand" web site:

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improperly posted what now follows ("my original response"), the nominator put them in their proper sequence. (Why MPLX thinks anyone noting the corrective move should care about it escapes me.)--

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page which now contains a lot of new material. If you will take the time to read above you will notice that several people, myself included are in agreement with a merger of the two pages on the

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page is the reality of evidence or provision for it to be added. Might I suggest that instead of merging a factually based page with a page based upon error, that we merge the error based page (

937:. It is Knowledge policy not to have duplicate articles, and if the original article is still POV, efforts should be made to remove that bias, rather than to create separate articles. 562:

to a disputed fringe entity as part of a world encyclopedia is very much a POV act in and of itself (especially when the entity in question calls itself the "Principality of Sealand".)

111:. It is Knowledge policy not to have duplicate articles, and if the original article is still POV, efforts should be made to remove that bias, rather than to create separate articles. 521:

I did not create the "Principality of Sealand" page or the "Sealand" page. They both existed before I first registered with Knowledge. Therefore the accusation that I have created a

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Again, if you want to merge these pages that is fine with me but I suggest that you merge into the proper name and that you do not import fantasy without identifying it as fantasy.

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page is. I have been reading about the issue and trying to work towards NPOV for quite a while. Both sides are pushing their POV pretty hard. The leftover article should be at

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Now to your main point (which is where the INTENTIONAL confusion on your part is coming from. I claim intentional because I don't know how many more times I can repeat that I am

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PLEASE NOTE: I am in total agreement with the idea of merging! This is what I wrote back in October on the Talk page relating to this article (it is still there for reference):

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Please note that the entry by Gene Poole that is now listed above, was originally listed below the entry that now follows. It was moved after I wrote my original response.

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The debate over whether the "Principality of Sealand" does exist as a legal entity has been created by Gene Poole who seems to have invented a new definition of the word "

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page. You will notice that there are several places and entities called "Sealand" and that all other entities, except for the "Principality of Sealand" are not in dispute.

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will suddenly vanish and life will return to normality within the understanding of the majority of contributors to Knowledge concerning what is real and what is fantasy.

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page it begins by trying to debunk a fantasy, rather than stating that it is a fantasy. That is hardly the way to write an intelligent article. What I have added to the

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Anything of value to merge into the existing Sealand article? I don't see much. Mostly quotations and non-notable trivia (like nickname of nation's founder). Simply

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Anything of value to merge into the existing Sealand article? I don't see much. Mostly quotations and non-notable trivia (like nickname of nation's founder). Simply

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a pejorative statement. It is only by the act of legally squatting that any one could possibly claim ownership of what was HMS Roughs (or HM Rough's) since it was a

1768:. That's the right way to go. You should insert into that article any notable facts it now lacks, correct any POV it now contains, and follow the normal 681:

With regards to the law and fraud, it was Ryan Lackey who founded Havenco with the Bates and then quit - after he found out that he had been deceived and "

403:. That's the right way to go. You should insert into that article any notable facts it now lacks, correct any POV it now contains, and follow the normal 944:

You are correct, it is not a vanity article and the page existed before I contributed to it as you will see by checking the history of the page itself.

1827:. For other such terms, however, ] is the article about one of the meanings, with a link at the top to ] to accommodate the others; see, for example, 656:(!) as a legal concept, you then completely misinterpreted its meaning in law by attempting to discuss it in the context of an inanimate object. -- 1675:. The platform's occupants since 19?? have claimed that they are an independent state, while governments and critics have written them off as mere 1643:

is being used in a pejorative context, and the people you're referring to wouldn't agree with you. I suggest that the first sentence stick to the

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Now what kind of nonsense is this for Knowledge to be engaging in? That is why since most are in agreement with merging (including me), that the

1328:(including me!) Now can we also resolve the issue that is going to arise as soon as we try to accomplish this task? The details are as stated by 349:(including me!) Now can we also resolve the issue that is going to arise as soon as we try to accomplish this task? The details are as stated by 1823:

For some terms that have more than one meaning, ] is a disambiguation page, which is how you suggest we handle "Sealand". An example would be

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page have been made by stating what the subject is, not what the subject cannot be. The difference between the two approaches is this. On the

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page. In order to straighten this mess out the article presently on the Sealand page should be removed here and the redirect link on the

995:. Contents an attempt to avoid consensus, alternate names of countries should be redirects to wherever the article for the country is. -- 140:. Contents an attempt to avoid consensus, alternate names of countries should be redirects to wherever the article for the country is. -- 1500:" with a definition that does not exist in any accepted and agreed to interpretations of the English language, then the fiction of the " 1993:

Please note that sovereign power of the Principality of Sealand cannot be exercised by the deposed Roy Bates or his collaborators.

685:" (his words), by Bates and lost a lot of money. I know of other ventures where the same thing has happened because of this fraud. 1549:

That is the true definition of this entity. It would be useful to understanding this subject by reading the Knowledge article on

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I am MPLX/MH. Since I have not commented here before, please allow me to do so now by stating the following undisputed facts:

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page makes it perfectly clear that several reputable and a handful of not-so-reputable entities also make use of the name "

776:, who has a very obvious axe to grind on the subject of Sealand. I would like to stress that much useful data provided by 1504:" (outside of its existence in media generated stories), is being supported by its definition in the fiction of the word 1979:

page was highly POV in favor of Roy Bates because the rival claim to the "Principality of Sealand" has been swept aside

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Therefore if this new word "micronation" is to be understood within the meaning of the accepted definition of the word

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whose use and interpretation seems to exist in order to confound and confuse fantasy with reality (the actual word is

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I am also in the process of adding a lot of new tedious (believe me it is tedious!) material to back up by assertion.

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page. The definition is found in the very first few words of the first line of the article and it concerns the word "

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page relating to the activities of squatters on the former HMS Roughs on Rough Sands, United Kingdom. However, the

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problem hangs on that person's disputed interpretation of this subject by linking it to the disputed article

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Any objections to something like that? Feel free to copy my comment to an article Talk page if appropriate.

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at the moment. Which name ends up the article and which ends up the redirect, I don't think really matters.

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fortress created in World War II by Britain and subsequently abandoned to the jurisdiction of the High Seas.

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at the moment. Which name ends up the article and which ends up the redirect, I don't think really matters.

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In reply: I have no "obvious axe to gind." What I have stated is that the entity upon Rough Sands is not

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page. That word appears in the very first line. Therefore I have been editing and contributing to the

835:. The Planet Earth exists and the sunken barge exists, but the Earth is not flat and the barge is not 592:" is something that exists simply because something has been given a name and reported upon somewhere. 432:

Merge and redirect. No opinion on which location to prefer or where to put the disambiguation page. --

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I may have missed something here, but in what way is this defined as a vanity article? Nonetheless,

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I may have missed something here, but in what way is this defined as a vanity article? Nonetheless,

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I wrote to you originally in a friendly manner and you responded by posting that my comments were "

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That is a lot of work and I don't particularly want to do it, but I will if no one else wants to.

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This discussion should be taking place on the article's talk page instead of here, but anyway...

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points out, that is not the meaning that is being given to it on Knowledge under the entry for

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then, having merged it all into a new non-POV article that does not begin by using the word

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which have real territory and a real population have been defined in Knowledge by the word

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which has been implanted on Knowledge by the same individual who began the entire dispute.

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What you have demonstrated Gene is that you are the one who is confusing the issues here:

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confusing reality and fantasy in order to promote his POV on this subject. He claims the

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The proper name for the disputed entity is by its own choice of name on its own website:

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page since that is the true name given to this entity by Roy, Joan and Michael Bates.

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on freight containers going by. Therefore to apply the non-qualified use of the word

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Sorry, your proposed language is POV and is not acceptable in a Knowledge article.

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What Mr. Poole objects to and what he has called "hysterical" is my use of the word

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In addition to the two pages mentioned, there are also several others linked by the

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Once that fiction is removed it can be clearly stated in the first sentence that:

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and look at the related links - especially those concerning the United Kingdom.

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article. It does not make any sense describing what it is not, only what it is.

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to confer rights on the fantasy of Roy Bates! For proof I cite the web page at

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and nothing else? If that is the case then let me address that issue. The word

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to describe the so-called "Principality of Sealand". I also equate it with the

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article by adding the information box, and then where are we? We're back at

700:. We are not discussing real estate but a sunken barge occupied by squatters. 542:

The most common use of this name depends upon circumstances. In the UK it is

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With regards to law I have attempted to show the differences in law between

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facts, and subsequent sentences explain the differing POVs. For instance:

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in the paragraph below concerning the use and interpretation of the word

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page and create a new disambig page for the multiple possible Sealands.

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page has a disputed status, an undisputed version might have some value?

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in the paragraph below concerning the use and interpretation of the word

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page and create a new disambig page for the multiple possible Sealands.

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page has a disputed status, an undisputed version might have some value?

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vessel and it has been marked to the present day by Ministry of Defence

2009: 2005: 1976: 1950: 1929: 1873: 1866: 1832: 1809: 1793: 1788: 1765: 1753: 1396: 1375: 1343: 1233: 1221: 1186: 1147: 1107: 1055: 1047: 1040: 1025: 953: 889: 760: 754: 728: 615: 468: 464: 422: 418: 400: 388: 364: 275: 263: 238: 223: 192: 184: 177: 162: 95: 89: 77: 62: 58: 1872:

after moving the non-POV and non-duplicated material from the present

1240:, then merge it in before moving the other page over it. What a mess. 964:

page to redirect to all of the many other uses of the name "Sealand".

282:, then merge it in before moving the other page over it. What a mess. 1471: 1091:

is either identified or removed first. By the way, as noted above, a

463:

in order to promote a POV not accepted by consensus at the original

57:

in order to promote a POV not accepted by consensus at the original

1772:

processes for any differences that develop about specific changes.

1220:

Merge and redirect. That is, the encyclopedic article currently at

1054:. Merging history is probably the best idea. Then either redirect 407:

processes for any differences that develop about specific changes.

262:

Merge and redirect. That is, the encyclopedic article currently at

191:. Merging history is probably the best idea. Then either redirect 1664: 1622: 1558: 1533: 1455: 1020:

The possiblity of somebody typing this in the Search box merits a

157:

The possiblity of somebody typing this in the Search box merits a

1816:

on this matter because he has addressed the core of the problem.

1444:

is cleared up once and for all, then a whole slate of disputes -

1894:

I am also for merging the German story (which is in English) at

1721: 1095:

page already exists due to the many correct uses of this name.

1599:

you can tell me exactly which part of the following is not a

886:

I am in TOTAL agreement with the idea to merge the two pages!

1752:

is a redirect.) By that standard, the article should be at

1704:

Okay, so essentially what you have trouble with is the word

789:

clearly more elaborate. What is his "obvious axe to grind"?

743:. The new article is simply 1 person's highly charged POV.-- 536: 387:

is a redirect.) By that standard, the article should be at

1658: 1616: 1527: 1210:

Merge and redirect. Duplicate articles are unacceptable.

252:

Merge and redirect. Duplicate articles are unacceptable.

946:

I am in agreement with everyone's idea to merge the pages

663:

You assert that I have have a POV yet you disclaim a POV.

487:

The "entry by Gene Poole" was the nomination. Soon after

1858:

Here is what I want and others seem to be in agreement:

1847:, which is why I commended that link to your attention. 550:. In Holland there is also an area in English known as 1177:

of Sealand". However there now exists a more complete

892:

page has a ambiguous name that is already linked to a

467:

article. Note that this is NOT a VfD for the original

61:

article. Note that this is NOT a VfD for the original

1422:

with whom I am also in total agreement. This is what

1981:

as if a sensible decision has been made by Knowledge

1418:

article. On that page is the following statement by

1106:

one to the other, keeping the content of what is at

222:

one to the other, keeping the content of what is at

1185:page should be removed and a redirect inserted on 1923:More Legal and Editorial Difficulties to consider 1481:, it would mean a very small nation. However, as 896:page, then the obvious thing to do is to use the 1760:being a redirect to it, as set up by Fuzheado. 1414:You can find the origin on the Talk page of the 395:being a redirect to it, as set up by Fuzheado. 2004:page contents should be removed to the present 1611:to their occupation of a partially submerged 1522:to their occupation of a partially submerged 1039:has only 1 major editor, first merge that to 176:has only 1 major editor, first merge that to 8: 1403:page and neither am I the originator of the 610:Please observe that my contributions to the 2012:that are not POV and not duplicated on the 1466:which has been introduced (as explained by 672:" because they did not agree with your own. 1975:Whoever wrote the original article on the 1607:(so-called) is in reality a name given by 1518:(so-called) is in reality a name given by 1161:I completely agree with you. However the 1146:or use above suggestion to move current 237:or use above suggestion to move current 772:It is "undisputed" by it's sole author 2016:page be incorporated on that one page 2008:page and the present contents on the 1496:As a result of associating the name " 525:article is both unfounded and unkind. 7: 1679:with no legitimate sovereign status. 1357:Agreement and Basic Cause of Dispute 459:Redundant vanity article created by 53:Redundant vanity article created by 1657:barge marked for identification by 1615:barge marked for identification by 1526:barge marked for identification by 1362:Having already agreed (above) with 1267:Merge and redirect as described by 309:Merge and redirect as described by 1812:page. Please read the comments by 1440:If the issue as outlined above by 950:but the big question is: which way 603:which has its own Knowledge entry. 24: 1764:, I see that you've been editing 399:, I see that you've been editing 1195:MPLX/MH 15:41, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC) 1043:(be careful to keep NPOV), then 180:(be careful to keep NPOV), then 2018:along with the contents of the 1712:has a legal definition - it is 1013:to the master Sealand article. 864:The above is a good example of 150:to the master Sealand article. 18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion 1957:as to its name but it is also 1557:barge in question by means of 1279:I agree with all three above: 818:See above evidence of the axe 546:in the area of England called 1: 1409:or the origin of this dispute 1395:the originator of either the 1387:As stated on this page by me 573:by Gene Poole that I have an 1845:Knowledge:Dispute resolution 1770:Knowledge:Dispute resolution 447:Reformatting for clarity by 405:Knowledge:Dispute resolution 1651:The Principality of Sealand 1605:The Principality of Sealand 1516:The Principality of Sealand 1058:or disambiguate if needed. 195:or disambiguate if needed. 2053: 1491:that page is also disputed 1750:William Jefferson Clinton 1158:23:53, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC) 1114:23:30, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC) 1079:23:00, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC) 979:"Principality of Sealand" 537:"Principality of Sealand" 385:William Jefferson Clinton 124:"Principality of Sealand" 2002:Sealand (disambiguation) 1938:Sealand (disambiguation) 1863:Sealand (disambiguation) 1851:18:26, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1820:14:31, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1806:Sealand (disambiguation) 1784:Sealand (disambiguation) 1776:08:35, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1701:20:04, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1579:19:47, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC) 1303:16:23, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC) 1257:09:06, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1230:Sealand (disambiguation) 1217:00:38, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC) 1191:Sealand (disambiguation) 1179:Sealand (disambiguation) 1163:Sealand (disambiguation) 1135:01:59, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC) 1122:23:46, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1093:Sealand (disambiguation) 1032:22:20, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC) 989:15:27, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC) 962:Sealand (disambiguation) 941:13:11, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 894:Sealand (disambiguation) 877:00:46, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 827:22:48, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 785:13:22, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 769:13:13, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 735:13:00, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 660:22:19, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 530:Sealand (disambiguation) 483:22:09, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 475:12:31, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 454:07:49, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC). 436:00:34, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC) 429:00:15, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC) 324:16:23, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC) 299:09:06, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 272:Sealand (disambiguation) 259:00:38, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC) 249:23:53, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC) 230:23:30, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC) 216:23:00, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC) 169:22:20, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC) 134:15:27, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC) 69:12:31, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 2038:17:02, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC) 2014:Principality of Sealand 1987:Principality of Sealand 1934:Principality of Sealand 1900:Principality of Sealand 1878:Principality of Sealand 1841:Principality of Sealand 1837:Principality of Sealand 1802:Principality of Sealand 1798:Principality of Sealand 1782:: Are you aware that a 1758:Principality of Sealand 1732:22:11, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1671:, off the coast of the 1565:18:35, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1502:Principality of Sealand 1498:Principality of Sealand 1454:: Small states such as 1401:Principality of Sealand 1350:18:03, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1296:15:36, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1275:14:17, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1264:09:52, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1238:Principality of Sealand 1226:Principality of Sealand 1205:00:14, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1183:Principality of Sealand 1169:00:05, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1152:Principality of Sealand 1052:Principality of Sealand 1037:Principality of Sealand 1017:20:47, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 1007:16:30, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 999:15:37, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 968:22:30, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 958:Principality of Sealand 926:01:33, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 898:Principality of Sealand 859:00:00, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 813:22:32, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 807:Principality of Sealand 793:16:30, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 747:13:07, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 717:22:53, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 644:21:33, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 628:Principality of Sealand 620:Principality of Sealand 612:Principality of Sealand 513:18:22, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC) 498:07:49, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC) 411:08:35, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC) 393:Principality of Sealand 371:18:03, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 317:14:17, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 306:09:52, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC) 280:Principality of Sealand 268:Principality of Sealand 243:Principality of Sealand 189:Principality of Sealand 174:Principality of Sealand 154:20:47, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 144:15:37, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 115:13:11, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 104:13:13, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 84:13:00, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC) 48:07:49, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC) 28:Principality of Sealand 1653:a partially submerged 1326:so far: 5 contributors 347:so far: 5 contributors 41:following sections. -- 1928:Right now there is a 1808:page contents to the 1452:Further clarification 1260:I'd agree with that. 1165:page already exists. 900:page for the article. 425:, the common name. - 302:I'd agree with that. 1991:which claims that: " 1865:page to the present 1804:page and moving the 1639:Obviously, the word 974:Delete, no redirect. 569:With regards to the 119:Delete, no redirect. 1662:Ministry of Defence 1620:Ministry of Defence 1531:Ministry of Defence 1340:the very first line 1232:should be moved to 1224:should be moved to 981:before just trying 960:page and leave the 361:the very first line 274:should be moved to 266:should be moved to 126:before just trying 2020:Fürstentum Sealand 1896:Fürstentum Sealand 1742:Merge and redirect 1446:including this one 1372:Wile E. Heresiarch 1299:Agree with above. 1289:Wile E. Heresiarch 1273:Wile E. Heresiarch 935:merge and redirect 909:Flat Earth Society 870:Flat Earth Society 833:Flat Earth Society 725:Merge and redirect 601:Flat Earth Society 415:Merge and redirect 377:Merge and redirect 320:Agree with above. 315:Wile E. Heresiarch 109:merge and redirect 74:Merge and redirect 1953:page is not only 1861:Move the present 1601:statement of fact 1338:which appears on 1307:In agreement with 694:personal property 359:which appears on 328:In agreement with 2044: 1748:is the article, 1391:(boring!), I am 1364:Average Earthman 1281:Average Earthman 1262:Average Earthman 1089:fantasy material 1077: 1072: 1065: 1050:to the location 993:Delete, redirect 939:Average Earthman 441:The 39 kilobytes 383:is the article, 304:Average Earthman 214: 209: 202: 187:to the location 138:Delete, redirect 113:Average Earthman 2052: 2051: 2047: 2046: 2045: 2043: 2042: 2041: 2032:United Kingdom. 1925: 1699: 1359: 1323: 1255: 1075: 1068: 1063: 907:denying that a 624:minus the error 443: 344: 297: 212: 205: 200: 36: 31: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 2050: 2048: 2040: 2039: 2033: 2029: 2026:criminal fraud 1998: 1997: 1996: 1973: 1946: 1945: 1924: 1921: 1920: 1919: 1918: 1917: 1916: 1915: 1914: 1913: 1908: 1905: 1904: 1903: 1892: 1881: 1870: 1856: 1825:Robert Jackson 1738: 1737: 1736: 1735: 1734: 1733: 1697: 1694: 1682: 1681: 1680: 1673:United Kingdom 1637: 1631:United Kingdom 1591:I will accept 1582: 1581: 1580: 1567: 1566: 1547: 1546: 1545: 1542:United Kingdom 1509: 1494: 1489:. By the way, 1475: 1449: 1438: 1437: 1436: 1412: 1384: 1383: 1358: 1355: 1354: 1353: 1352: 1351: 1321: 1318: 1304: 1297: 1276: 1265: 1253: 1250: 1218: 1208: 1207: 1206: 1199: 1198: 1197: 1196: 1170: 1140: 1139: 1138: 1137: 1136: 1101: 1100: 1099: 1033: 1018: 1008: 1000: 990: 971: 970: 969: 956:page with the 931: 930: 929: 928: 927: 921: 913: 901: 882: 881: 862: 861: 860: 851: 850: 849: 848: 816: 815: 814: 794: 750: 749: 748: 722: 721: 720: 719: 718: 712: 708: 705: 701: 686: 679: 676: 673: 665: 664: 646: 645: 639: 631: 607: 606: 605: 604: 593: 582: 567: 563: 540: 533: 526: 516: 515: 514: 501: 500: 457: 456: 442: 439: 438: 437: 430: 412: 374: 373: 372: 342: 339: 325: 318: 307: 295: 292: 260: 250: 231: 217: 170: 155: 145: 135: 116: 105: 85: 51: 50: 35: 32: 30: 25: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 2049: 2037: 2034: 2030: 2027: 2023: 2021: 2015: 2011: 2007: 2003: 1999: 1994: 1990: 1988: 1982: 1978: 1974: 1970: 1969: 1967: 1964: 1960: 1956: 1952: 1948: 1947: 1943: 1939: 1935: 1931: 1927: 1926: 1922: 1912: 1909: 1906: 1901: 1897: 1893: 1890: 1886: 1882: 1879: 1875: 1871: 1868: 1864: 1860: 1859: 1857: 1853: 1852: 1850: 1846: 1842: 1838: 1834: 1830: 1826: 1822: 1821: 1819: 1815: 1811: 1807: 1803: 1799: 1795: 1790: 1785: 1781: 1778: 1777: 1775: 1771: 1767: 1763: 1759: 1755: 1751: 1747: 1743: 1740: 1739: 1731: 1727: 1723: 1719: 1715: 1711: 1707: 1703: 1702: 1700: 1693: 1690: 1687: 1686: 1683: 1678: 1674: 1670: 1666: 1663: 1660: 1656: 1652: 1649: 1648: 1646: 1642: 1638: 1635: 1634: 1632: 1628: 1624: 1621: 1618: 1614: 1610: 1606: 1602: 1598: 1594: 1590: 1587: 1583: 1578: 1575: 1571: 1570: 1569: 1568: 1564: 1560: 1556: 1552: 1548: 1543: 1539: 1535: 1532: 1529: 1525: 1521: 1517: 1513: 1512: 1510: 1507: 1503: 1499: 1495: 1492: 1488: 1484: 1480: 1476: 1473: 1469: 1465: 1461: 1457: 1453: 1450: 1447: 1443: 1439: 1435: 1432: 1431: 1429: 1426:wrote on the 1425: 1421: 1417: 1413: 1410: 1406: 1402: 1398: 1394: 1390: 1386: 1385: 1381: 1377: 1373: 1369: 1365: 1361: 1360: 1356: 1349: 1345: 1341: 1337: 1336: 1331: 1327: 1324: 1317: 1314: 1311: 1310: 1308: 1305: 1302: 1298: 1295: 1291: 1290: 1286: 1282: 1277: 1274: 1270: 1266: 1263: 1259: 1258: 1256: 1249: 1246: 1243: 1242: 1239: 1235: 1231: 1227: 1223: 1219: 1216: 1213: 1209: 1204: 1201: 1200: 1194: 1192: 1188: 1184: 1180: 1174: 1173: 1171: 1168: 1164: 1160: 1159: 1157: 1153: 1150:] content to 1149: 1145: 1141: 1134: 1129: 1124: 1123: 1121: 1116: 1115: 1113: 1109: 1105: 1102: 1098: 1094: 1090: 1086: 1081: 1080: 1078: 1073: 1071: 1066: 1060: 1057: 1053: 1049: 1046: 1042: 1038: 1034: 1031: 1027: 1023: 1019: 1016: 1012: 1009: 1006: 1001: 998: 994: 991: 988: 984: 980: 975: 972: 967: 963: 959: 955: 951: 947: 943: 942: 940: 936: 932: 925: 922: 920: 914: 910: 906: 902: 899: 895: 891: 887: 884: 883: 879: 878: 876: 871: 867: 863: 858: 853: 852: 846: 841: 840: 838: 837:real property 834: 829: 828: 826: 821: 817: 812: 808: 803: 799: 798:real property 795: 792: 787: 786: 784: 779: 775: 771: 770: 768: 764: 763:is undisputed 762: 756: 751: 746: 742: 737: 736: 734: 730: 726: 723: 716: 713: 709: 706: 702: 699: 695: 691: 690:real property 687: 684: 680: 677: 674: 671: 667: 666: 662: 661: 659: 655: 654:did not exist 650: 649: 648: 647: 643: 640: 637: 632: 629: 625: 621: 617: 613: 609: 608: 602: 598: 594: 591: 587: 583: 580: 576: 572: 568: 564: 561: 557: 553: 549: 545: 541: 538: 534: 531: 527: 524: 520: 519: 517: 512: 508: 503: 502: 499: 497: 494: 490: 485: 484: 482: 478: 477: 476: 474: 470: 466: 462: 455: 453: 450: 445: 444: 440: 435: 431: 428: 424: 420: 416: 413: 410: 406: 402: 398: 394: 390: 386: 382: 378: 375: 370: 366: 362: 358: 357: 352: 348: 345: 338: 335: 332: 331: 329: 326: 323: 319: 316: 312: 308: 305: 301: 300: 298: 291: 288: 285: 284: 281: 277: 273: 269: 265: 261: 258: 255: 251: 248: 244: 241:] content to 240: 236: 232: 229: 225: 221: 218: 215: 210: 208: 203: 197: 194: 190: 186: 183: 179: 175: 171: 168: 164: 160: 156: 153: 149: 146: 143: 139: 136: 133: 129: 125: 120: 117: 114: 110: 106: 103: 99: 98:is undisputed 97: 91: 86: 83: 79: 75: 72: 71: 70: 68: 64: 60: 56: 49: 47: 44: 38: 37: 33: 29: 26: 19: 2025: 2017: 1992: 1986: 1980: 1965: 1962: 1958: 1954: 1949:The present 1941: 1876:page to the 1814:Gzornenplatz 1746:Bill Clinton 1741: 1713: 1688: 1650: 1645:indisputable 1644: 1640: 1604: 1600: 1596: 1592: 1515: 1501: 1497: 1490: 1483:Gzornenplatz 1478: 1468:Gzornenplatz 1451: 1445: 1442:Gzornenplatz 1433: 1424:Gzornenplatz 1420:Gzornenplatz 1408: 1399:page or the 1392: 1388: 1339: 1333: 1330:Gzornenplatz 1325: 1312: 1306: 1301:Gzornenplatz 1278: 1244: 1189:page to the 1175: 1143: 1127: 1103: 1088: 1084: 1069: 1044: 1024:to the main 1021: 1010: 992: 982: 978: 973: 949: 945: 934: 917: 904: 885: 843: 759:Merge, when 758: 724: 682: 669: 653: 636:micronations 635: 623: 596: 589: 585: 578: 574: 570: 559: 555: 551: 547: 543: 522: 486: 458: 446: 434:Michael Snow 414: 381:Bill Clinton 376: 360: 354: 351:Gzornenplatz 346: 333: 327: 322:Gzornenplatz 286: 234: 219: 206: 181: 161:to the main 158: 147: 137: 127: 123: 118: 108: 94:Merge, when 93: 73: 52: 39: 1932:page and a 1885:micronation 1669:Rough Sands 1627:Rough Sands 1538:Rough Sands 1506:micronation 1487:micronation 1464:micronation 1430:Talk page: 1428:micronation 1416:micronation 1405:micronation 1380:micronation 1335:micronation 1156:Niceguyjoey 802:real estate 698:real estate 626:) with the 590:micronation 586:micronation 575:ax to grind 544:RAF Sealand 507:micronation 471:article. -- 356:micronation 247:Niceguyjoey 65:article. -- 1959:highly POV 1955:inaccurate 1889:microstate 1849:JamesMLane 1780:JamesMLane 1774:JamesMLane 1718:Royal Navy 1655:Royal Navy 1613:Royal Navy 1555:Royal Navy 1524:Royal Navy 1460:microstate 1389:many times 1133:Shane King 1112:Shane King 919:Knowledge! 888:Since the 875:Gene_poole 825:Gene_poole 783:Gene_poole 745:Gene_poole 670:hysterical 658:Gene_poole 571:accusation 473:Gene_poole 409:JamesMLane 228:Shane King 67:Gene_poole 1968:grounds: 1898:with the 1829:Excalibur 1726:squatters 1677:squatters 1609:squatters 1551:squatters 1520:squatters 1368:User:Leif 1285:User:Leif 1269:User:Leif 1028:article. 1005:Sander123 983:"Sealand" 791:Sander123 767:Sander123 696:and even 311:User:Leif 165:article. 128:"Sealand" 102:Sander123 1963:at least 1880:page ... 1710:squatter 1706:squatter 1641:squatter 1593:your own 1346:page. - 1228:, while 1144:redirect 1104:Redirect 1030:Lord Bob 1022:redirect 1011:Redirect 987:Lifefeed 800:or even 711:fantasy. 367:page. - 270:, while 235:redirect 220:Redirect 167:Lord Bob 159:redirect 148:Redirect 132:Lifefeed 2036:MPLX/MH 2010:Sealand 2006:Sealand 1977:Sealand 1951:Sealand 1942:Sealand 1930:Sealand 1911:MPLX/MH 1891:), then 1874:Sealand 1867:Sealand 1833:Sealand 1818:MPLX/MH 1810:Sealand 1794:Sealand 1789:Sealand 1766:Sealand 1762:MPLX/MH 1756:, with 1754:Sealand 1730:MPLX/MH 1563:MPLX/MH 1397:Sealand 1376:Sealand 1348:MPLX/MH 1344:Sealand 1342:of the 1294:MPLX/MH 1271:above. 1234:Sealand 1222:Sealand 1203:MPLX/MH 1187:Sealand 1167:MPLX/MH 1148:Sealand 1128:content 1120:MPLX/MH 1108:Sealand 1097:MPLX/MH 1056:Sealand 1048:Sealand 1041:Sealand 1026:Sealand 966:MPLX/MH 954:Sealand 924:MPLX/MH 890:Sealand 866:MPLX/MH 857:MPLX/MH 811:MPLX/MH 781:page.-- 761:sealand 755:Sealand 729:Sealand 715:MPLX/MH 683:lied to 642:MPLX/MH 616:Sealand 597:fantasy 560:Sealand 556:Sealand 552:Sealand 548:Sealand 511:MPLX/MH 481:MPLX/MH 469:Sealand 465:Sealand 423:Sealand 419:Sealand 401:Sealand 397:MPLX/MH 391:, with 389:Sealand 369:MPLX/MH 365:Sealand 363:of the 313:above. 276:Sealand 264:Sealand 239:Sealand 224:Sealand 193:Sealand 185:Sealand 178:Sealand 163:Sealand 96:sealand 90:Sealand 78:Sealand 63:Sealand 59:Sealand 1479:nation 1472:nation 1035:Since 997:Improv 579:drivel 523:vanity 427:Taxman 172:Since 142:Improv 1902:page. 1869:page; 1722:buoys 1665:buoys 1623:buoys 1584:Okay 1559:buoys 1534:buoys 1456:Malta 1407:page 1193:page. 493:Jerzy 449:Jerzy 43:Jerzy 34:Votes 16:< 2022:page 1698:HELO 1692:leif 1595:POV 1586:Rick 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