861:, the age where there is most progress. Not only is your claim paper-thin, it's false in more ways than I can even think of. The golden age of rock doesn't "exist" because it hasn't been discussed as much and becase (arguably) rock hasn't made any giant strides in any particular time period, being as it is a slower-evolving genre and it's older than hip-hop. If you ask rock critics/fans, you can get a rough consensus on when the best rock and roll was coming out, but that's all it would be, an unofficial poll on a concept you're not sure about. The golden age of hip-hop is obvious, your point isn't.
876:
because PONY and a couple of others went and rallied up their friends and said "HEY! COME VOTE!" (as evidenced by the user pages). I could do the same, but it's really not all that crucial. The article is going to have to be re-written. Hell, let it stand. We have articles about unicorns and sirens - why not about another myth? That God my worth isn't determined by my projects on Wiki-frickin'-Pedia. My name isn't on the project, so my creditbility isn't compromised, and that's all that matters to me (that, and the piece of dreck gets a serious re-write.) You win. Good show. And?
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they SHOULD be, and 2) from what I'm reading, these "golden ages" seem to be agreed up by NUMEROUS scholars. All you've linked to is one or two articles saying "rap's golden age", none of which state your timeline. As for AllMusic being the biggest music site online...so what? What if
Rolling Stone disagrees with AM? Or Spin, or XXL, or Vibe? I DO think it would be cool to break up hip-hop by era, maybe, or decades, or 1/2 decades. But to try to label a "golden era" is just bunk. It can't be done, but a couple of nose-in-the-air so-called "hip hop purists" will ALWAYS try.
526:) but there is no indication of the exact source of the timeline, or when the article was written - was the information taken from wikipedia itself? This is why this article needs proper referencing and attribution. If you read it you have no idea where the information comes from, and once wikipedia distributes it, the article will tend to become copied across different sites, and then becomes "fact" due to massive "spamming" (for lack of a better word) of search results. Even doing a google search there seems to be no real consensus when this 'golden age' was. Even then
518:
especially is pretty poor in this regard, where there are comments of a 'golden age' but no specific timeframe or agreement what it meant. The other two links only have one mention of the 'golden age' again in a non-specific manner. Better references are needed for this. Doing a google search itself brings out similar links where there is a general reference to a golden age but no specific agreeement to what it is. I found one article (
950:. Every musical form has its own golden era; hiphop is no different. I do agree that the article could do with some editing, though. We could also do with less ad hominem attacks and sneaky attempts to put one's POV across over this article -- people are dying in Iraq and Darfur, and people are here getting high blood pressure over music...proportionality, people, proportionality, please. Hey, alliteration! ;) --
1108:, unless it can be referenced from a verifiable source. If you ask three different people when the "Golden age of hip-hop" was, you will get three different answers (I myself can give you at least four: 1972 - 1979; 1979 - 1986; 1986 - 1992; 1992 - 1996. It all depends on who you ask, and the context). I've been in hip-hop clubs, helped organize shows, and produced records, and I've
1195:, for the sake of verifiability. What P.O.N.Y. did was still not a good move; one announcement on the WikiProject talk page would have sufficed. Notifying a group of his immediate peers on the project, whom he knows are going to vote "his" way, is indeed fishing for votes. It almost reminds me of those horrible old AfD's involving the Mariah Carey/Christina Aguilera fangushers. --
124:- there are no references at all here, and the 'golden age' seems to be quite arbitraly defined by whoever wrote the article. The whole timeline section of hip-hop seems to have been divided in such a fashion. References to all these pages would be good, especially for the criteria for 'golden age'. I think that this falls more under 'original research' than anything else. -
76:
1030:" and you can find on your local radio station. What plays on your local station may differ slightly than what plays on my local station. But generally the same songs are played on such stations all over. What I don't understand Penny is why you insist on engaging in some kind of flame war. That is one thing we can all agree that definitely has NO PLACE in wikipedia.
888:
informed the hip hop wikiproject of this afd-- they used proper etiquette, and didn't voice their opinion on talk pages. god forbid a wikiproject actually be informed on the deletion of a notable subject. This wasn't about winning-- instead of putting it up for AFD you could have slapped an NPOV tag on it. Chill out man, we've all had failed AFD's.--
843:. Are you serious? This has 4 million hits on google, a million more than the very real idea of "deep dish pizza." The Golden Age of hip-hop is a serious concept, 86 to 93, encompassing Afrocentric underground rap. There can be no name change, this isn't something you can rename. It's as real as religion.
1165:
I agree with you that the word "the" should be removed from the article, to address the confusion over the term. But freddy, isn't it true that we have plenty of articles over somewhat blurry eras? Can't the article address the various views of what it was, as it surely is a notable, albeit debated
443:
This isn't as big of a deal to me as it is to you - obviously you're passionate about your little essay and you're using Wiki as web space to publish said essays. (I can refer you to a wonderful, cheap web host, by the way.) But it's stil OR, and OR has no place here. By your own admission, you state
317:
The golden age of comic books is because there is a Golden, Silver and Bronze era, noted by TIMELINE, not by "the best era EVA!!!111", which is what this article is trying to claim. I can't comment on the other two because I don't know about them, but 1) just because they're here on Wiki doesn't mean
1231:
What PONY did was go to a bunch of hip-hop heads and tell them that a hip-hop article was in danger of being deleted, knowning damn well that the vast majority of you would storm in and vote keep, which...surprise, surprise, is exactly what happened. Even if he didn't state an opinion, the very fact
746:
by the mass public there still might be people who would disagree with this. Therefore when they come here, the article name implies that we are agreeing with the mass public. I'm not saying we should completely throw away of this period being called Golden Age, but maybe putting it in the name is a
110:
The reason why I'm nomming this for deletion as opposed to a mere cleanup is because this article is nothing more than an essay of one person's opinion of what the golden age WAS (hence no research a-TALL). This isn't like charting say, grunge rock. This "golden age" simply does not EXIST. And if it
897:
Yes, i'd rather also like to address this issue of being 'rallied' by my 'friends'. As far as i'm concerned, a user I've never previously encountered asking "I wonder what you think about this" on my userpage is, as far as I can see, a damn sight more neutral than this ridiculous delete nomination.
433:
3) What a surprise! NOT ONE of those links verify your timeline! And the thought that you might actually have to SOURCE what you write is a waste of time? Isn't that the point of this whole place? Thanks for this morning's laugh. And double points for digging like hell to find a vague mention to an
364:
You made three points, one of which is significant. The two insignificant points you made were that 1)it's npov and 2)I created it. Neither of those are grounds for deletion, as you know. Your third point was that it is not recognized by enough media. Almost all the sources you listed reference
1274:
FuriousFreddy is the only one who called attention to it. But if his vote is tossed as well out of fairness, then I would understand it. As for your rather PUBLIC movement, I can't believe that you're so stupid that you wouldn't see why that is a problem, so I'm not going to speak down on you, and
856:
in New York (where ELSE would the golden age be? the golden age of Russia didn't happen in
Vermont), but saying it ended around 96 (assuming you're alluding to Pac and Big deaths) is both a miscalculation and an injustice. The golden age is bookended by Run-DMC and Dr. Dre, the transition from New
875:
giggling* Okay, then when was the golden age of hip-hop? Yup, that's what I thought. Hon, you and your little b-boys are going to keep your little toy, so what are you crying about? The article is terrible - just about everyone here agrees with that - and the only reason why it's going to stay is
517:
I have to say the main problem with this article is the lack of references, and the lack of any other articles giving a timeline. If we had such references there would be no such problem. The links from Vibe, Rolling Stone and XXL give no specific agreed timeline to the 'golden age'. The XXL link
281:
As can be clearly seen, this isn't original research. Thus, because it is verifiably not original research, it is therefore not contrary with any wikipedia policy except perhaps NPOV-- a policy, you should note, which isn't a reasonable grounds for deletion. For any doubters that still remain,
111:
does 1) it sure as heck wasn't in New York and 2) it sure as heck wasn't from 1986-1993. If anything, the age STARTED in '92 and ended around '96. But you see where I'm going? We'd be here all day. This has no place here at
Knowledge. Next thing we know, we'll be charting the golden age of rock.
783:
It's far enough in the past now that it can be judged. You don't know a golden age until it's over. There seems to be general agreement that there was a golden age and that it's over; the arguments are over the exact dates. People are still arguing over when the "golden age of rock" ended.
277:
and the hip hop culture itself as a distinct era in the music and the culture, which had certain characteristics such as a harder sound, along with experimentation, and a political/socially-conscious current throughout. Allmusic.com, the largest music site on the internet, even has a subgenre
887:
The golden age of hip hop was the time from the popularity of RUN-DMC to the popularity of gangsta rap(specifically the chronic). Every sourced timeline will be within a year or so of this(and this bluriness can be addressed in the article itself). PONY didn't do any "rallying", they merely
1120:
solid consensus on a "Golden Age of hip-hop", and no referencing of such in the article. You could suggest that the article be about the lack of consensus over the term, but that leads to original research. On top of all of that..."golden age of hip hop" is very vague. Golden age of hip hop
138:- I disagree, I think the article needs to be worked on a bit more but there's definitely an era in the rap history that is called the golden age. It started when rap became more popular with the emergence of Run-DMC and the creation of the Def Jam records label. ref:
1209:
what the members' opinions were, since this is a significant article for the hiphopwikiproject, and a significant part of hip hop history itself. And you assume that he believed evey one would vote to keep this article, but that's merely an assumption. As far as
444:
that NPOV isn't a problem. But since it looks like enough people don't even care enough to vote (unless you want to drum up some sock puppets), it looks like your little Ode to Hip Hop is going to stand. Kudos, you've lowered the quality of
Knowledge. (tips hat)
1191:", which is a Knowledge no-no. I can't even be verifiably certain that a "Golden age of New York hip hop music" would actually begin in 1986. Why not in '82 with "The Message", or in '83 with "It's Like That"? It's probably best to simply move the article to
275:
1262:
No, it's not a coincidence-- people that are interested in the subject, and are part of its wikiproject, agree that you're wrong. Isn't it kind of a double standard that you accept
Furious Freddy's "fished" vote, but not everyone elses?
638:- per Urthogie, but the article could benefit from some time in userspace because it needs major work. I'd support a cleanup tag and major revisions though because the article is unsourced and its content can easily be opinionated. --
434:
even vaguer "golden era". The rule here is that it has to follow "Google" law, and even with the Google link YOU provided, it doesn't! Do yourself a favor: if and when you ever get arrested, don't represent yourself in court.
742:: A name change isnt necessary but it would avoid the problem of POV accusations. An encyclopedia is ment to give both sides of the story despite public opinion on the subject. Now since this period is really considered
964:
and cleanup. I hate music critics because, they have certainly established the idea of golden ages/original eras for every genre of music. Since they have enough influence though, they can do that if they want. --
1025:
what period falls under such categories. It is apparent from numerous music publications that there is such a consensus among music writers when it comes to hip-hop. And yeah, PennyGWoods there is a genre called
764:
people consider the 90s to be the golden age of hip hop (and this would have to be supported by a source/music critic). While the opinions of a few should be adressed, I don't that alone warrants a title change.
1084:. AfD is not the place to take cleanup or content issues. As it stands, the article could use some referencing, NPOVing, and all that lovely stuff, but I see no reason why the article itself should be deleted. -
1100:
717:
I don't understand why the article title needs to be changed. Every major hip hop publication agrees that the mid-to-late 80s were indeed the golden age this article is referring to. As
Urthogie pointed out,
802:
about "rap's golden age." The article was talking about Run-D.M.C. and Public Enemy, among others. It's definitely a real term. And I just made a bunch of edits to the article, so it's not very POV anymore.
1204:
What PONY did was based off a neutral standpoint. No matter what his motivations or intentions were, he did not include any of his opinions whatsoever, nor did he suggest that people vote for it. He merely
48:. {{sofixit}} and add references. I've also moved a large chunk to the discussion page because that's where it belonged. And if you find that you don't like my ways you can send me back in thirty days.
848:"This "golden age" simply does not EXIST. And if it does 1) it sure as heck wasn't in New York and 2) it sure as heck wasn't from 1986-1993. If anything, the age STARTED in '92 and ended around '96."
1056:
by Andrew Emery for example. It is also broadly/widely understood and recognised and is worthy of remaining on
Knowledge as it's own article, albiet with a well thought out cleanup/revamp/citation.
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article. I think more emphasis should be made to explain that this article summarizes those years. I think this article should definetely be kept for that reason and maybe renamed to something like
683:
to please delete supporters. The term "golden age" can be mentioned in the lead to satisfy the keep supporters like myself. Urthogie comment above also states a good reason for this to stay.
391:
Sorry, but you have no point here. It's been verified, and having me source it was a waste of time. I urge everyone who voted delete to revert their votes on the basis of policy. Peace, --
217:
I was 24.203.185.52. Reason I didn't sign is I didn't have a username and you're right I didn't follow policy cause I didn't read it, I'm not a regular wiki-"modder" or however you call it.
1152:
when it comes to AfD discussions. I strongly hope the editor who closes this discussion will research the vote-requesting by whomever has been doing it and make an informed decision.--
1070:- The topic is significant enough to have an article. Sourcing and POV issues can be settled on the article's talk page, and AfD is not the place for resolving those challenges. --
1253:
By the way, I was doing a count. Before my PC shut down and I lost my entire post. I counted 11 keep votes, all fished for by PONY. But I'm sure that's a mere coincidence.
730:
are all subjective in nature, but are acknowledged by historians and other credible sources. What makes this article any different so as to deserve a change in its title?
1112:
heard the words "golden age of hip-hop" come out of anyone's mouth (not even a rapper's; though I suspect someone, somewhere has said something). There is definitely
857:
York domination to West Coast popularity. In this time period, countless important and groundbreaking artists were introduced to the genre, hence why it's called the
1166:
genre/era? As far as vote counting, PONY didn't fish for votes, they just informed members of the wikiproject of the vote. There wasn't any statement of opinion.--
415:
1) NPOV IS a significant reason for deletion - in fact, it's one of the MAIN reasons! So you're ADMITTING it's NPOV, but saying that's not important? Bad move.
1137:. Hip hop's timeline is really too fractured and factioned to agree on a definitive golden age that would please all people and be historically accurate. --
1125:, exact? The article seems to be focused on the music, so the title should state such. If this article is to be kept as it is, it should be moved to either
424:
2) It IS significant that you wrote the article. That's why the rules state that is you're the primary author, you have to make that known in your vote.
701:, the title is a tad PoV and probaly why it was placed in AFD in the first place but it's a very valid subject, clearly not orginial research. Thanks
522:) stating the golden age was the 80s but no timeframe as put in the article in question itself. Here is another article that does state the timeline (
1116:, which most agree stopped cold in about 1992, and I could see "Golden age of hip hop" being used as a synonym for that era. However, there is
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My mistake; I should've looked closer at the IPs. I'll strike my comment, but my statement still stands. It's OR, and teeters on plagarism.
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belongs on
Knowledge. If so, renaming of this article should be considered. Perhaps it could say " refers to as the 'golden age'."
54:
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Go ahead and search wikipedia for more of these if you like. As can be clearly seen, this nomination isn't sound. Peace, --
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1021:- Any time a term like "golden age" or "classic" is used it's always subjective. But there's always a general consensus of
562:- I think this article's factual accuracy is very disputable, but this is a very relevant article pertaining to hip hop. --
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1214:, if an article can be sufficiently sourced and referenced, then I see no reason why not to include diferent views (see
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rewrite, with proper referencing, to actually be any good. (PS Seeing the comments above people need to chill a bit). -
179:# Please disclose whether you are an article's primary author or if you otherwise have a vested interest in the article.
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936:? As long as I've been listening the Golden Age has been as basic and central a concept as, say, The Four Elements.
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made such a period the golden age? Where is the research behind it? Even if the article is not deleted, it needs a
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is debated as well (definately to a greater extent then the beginning and start of the golden age of hip hop).
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
1007:, because there was a golden age definitely, but the timeline does seem subjective, so maybe a disclaimer? --
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675:: This article was ment to summarize a time period in hip hop starting from 1986 to 1993 as stated in the
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there are several publications and media outlets which acknowledge the 1980s as the golden age of hip hop
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consider these articles which also refer to established eras in various movements, cultures, and hobbies:
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990:, definitely a good topic, people need some more info on the Golden Age, the page needs a lot of work.
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I have to agree with
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171:- Another essay full of nothing but original research. And whadya know, the Knowledge essay was
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Golden age hip hop is not an original research conception. It's recognized by the music press
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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598:. A simple Google search has shown this (in less than 10- seconds, I found this credible
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1096:, clean up, and retitle to something a little less subjective and more encyclopedic.
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Watching you talk yourself into a hole is a blast. You're just bolstering my argument.
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Only because I've heard the term used before. The article needs a bit of clean-up.
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932:. If it's NPOV - edit it. If there are disputes about the dates - discuss it. But
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http://www.daytondailynews.com/music/content/life/daily/0428life25cdshiphop.html
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of hip hop. It is referred to in the pretty comprehensive publication of
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by our resident dissenter here, who failed to follow policy when voting:
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If the article starts addressing all the different views, it becomes an
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but make sure the article specifies who is defining the GAoHh as such.--
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590:- The grounds for deletion holds no weight at all whatsoever. As
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IS the author's primary author, as confirmed on his user page by
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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so yeh, go and sit on your moral high ground and *giggle* away.
491:
Please assume good faith when dealing with other editors. See
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http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:12014
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1232:that he did it AT ALL is not a sign of good faith.
175:influenced by AllMusic and more or less reworded
1314:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1220:beginning and the conclusion of the Renaissance
1275:I'll ignore your weak attempts to play dumb.
1148:I'd like to also take time to point out that
8:
1044:, the golden age of hip hop is a verifiable
495:for the guidelines on this. Happy editing!
278:directly under hip hop called "golden age."
258:Hip hop in the late '80s/'86-'93/whenever
852:Are you for real? Not only did hip-hop
1193:History of hip hop music (1986 - 1993)
1135:History of hip hop music (1986 - 1993)
1131:Golden age of East Coast hip hop music
699:History of Hip hop music (1986 - 1994)
720:Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain
290:Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain
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1127:Golden age of New York hip hop music
520:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5430999/
468:. You're not helping your argument.
378:"XXL" (where its mentioned a lot!)
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1150:fishing for votes is not condoned
606:acknowledges the existence of an
256:- I wonder whether an article on
199:is the article's primary author?
602:. As one person has noted, even
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18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
1098:Can't sleep, clown will eat me
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1054:The Book of Hip Hop Cover Art
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44:The result of the debate was
578:- It should be used wisely.
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1001:, I pretty much agree with
681:Hip hop music (1986 - 1993)
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493:Knowledge:Assume good faith
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1216:Renaissance Historiography
728:Golden Age of Comic Books
588:STRONG STRONG STRONG keep
300:Golden Age of Comic Books
101:working towards consensus
66:The golden age of hip hop
1307:Please do not modify it.
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841:Unbelievably STRONG KEEP
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365:this genre/time period:
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185:is the article's author.
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86:; users are reminded to
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32:Please do not modify it.
1042:Keep (Against deletion)
97:avoid personal attacks
195:What makes you think
800:Wall Street Journal
798:I just read in the
323:Ah! And apparently
181:The user who voted
1114:old school hip hop
992:User:PDTantisocial
724:Islamic Golden Age
622:- see: Urthogie.--
295:Islamic Golden Age
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1312:deletion review
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604:All Music Guide
536:Master Of Ninja
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338:
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126:Master Of Ninja
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550:- as per nom
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1187:; that is, "
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1028:classic rock
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355:) 2006-05-21
339:— Preceding
272:STRONG KEEP.
271:
257:
253:
234:
182:
178:
176:
172:
168:
144:— Preceding
135:
121:
109:
88:remain civil
51:RasputinAXP
45:
43:
31:
28:
1277:PennyGWoods
1255:PennyGWoods
1082:Strong Keep
1068:Strong Keep
1019:Strong Keep
930:Strong Keep
878:PennyGWoods
548:strong keep
497:PennyGWoods
446:PennyGWoods
345:PennyGWoods
332:Tim Ivorson
262:Tim Ivorson
210:PennyGWoods
201:Tim Ivorson
188:PennyGWoods
113:PennyGWoods
1087:Mysekurity
1032:MrBlondNYC
1004:- Tutmosis
967:Dragoonmac
859:golden age
833:La Pizza11
786:John Nagle
750:- Tutmosis
744:Golden Age
686:- Tutmosis
608:golden age
501:- Tutmosis
265:2006-05-20
204:2006-05-20
162:2006-05-20
1050:sub-genre
829:Weak Keep
636:Weak Keep
1265:Urthogie
1168:Urthogie
1058:Jhamez84
952:Jalabi99
934:deletion
890:Urthogie
767:P.O.N.Y.
715:Comment:
661:contribs
592:Urthogie
552:P.O.N.Y.
393:Urthogie
353:contribs
341:unsigned
329:Urthogie
325:Urthogie
308:Urthogie
219:Lotheric
158:contribs
146:unsigned
1224:Chubdub
1218:). The
1072:DavidGC
938:W guice
920:Rockero
900:W guice
740:Comment
732:Chubdub
703:Jaranda
626:Gяaρнic
612:Chubdub
580:LILVOKA
576:Support
466:WP:DICK
368:"Vibe"
254:Comment
239:ulayiti
183:against
173:heavily
169:Comment
136:Against
122:Support
1009:Carlos
726:, and
574:&
462:WP:NPA
244:(talk)
237:OR. -
235:Delete
99:while
95:, and
84:heated
1207:asked
1185:essay
1133:, or
1110:never
854:start
564:Ted87
532:major
16:<
1123:what
1094:Keep
988:Keep
962:Keep
948:Keep
914:per
912:Keep
817:cιτγ
796:Keep
781:Keep
761:some
695:Keep
673:Keep
657:talk
572:Keep
560:Keep
482:cιτγ
464:and
349:talk
154:talk
46:keep
1046:age
864:MOD
807:Λυδ
650:קּ‼
642:ßίζ
528:who
472:Λυδ
1263:--
1129:,
1118:no
969:-
784:--
722:,
659:|
610:.
351:•
160:)
156:•
1026:"
973:o
812:α
663:)
655:(
646:·
477:α
347:(
152:(
103:.
90:,
56:c
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