811:
tell you all that he is not a disability advocate. In fact he has alienated every disability peak body in
Victoria. So claims to notability in that area are false. Personal friends (as indicated by the links provided by Frickeg) need to go a lot further than they did to pass the political notability test at least. The key is substantive third party coverage, which Vern does not have, and frankly will never have unless he stops trying to tear the whole system down and start from scratch - which is impossible. Finally, there is a COI issue here although the IP's claim comes out of left field even though I can see where the idea comes from. There's no proof of that though - however there is evidence that Vern himself has edited this article, and that's not allowed unless it's uncontroversial. It's a grey area there than needs to be clarified, so I suggest a statement be made by both Frickeg and The Drover's Wife on that point.
1039:) can really be called significant coverage, and yes, we can discount the 28 letters and 10 that are just lists of candidates (usually for either the Williamstown by-election or the Melbourne City Council election). The others are 14 that I called "spokesman" type coverage ("People Power president Vern Hughes said ..."), and 3 opinion pieces authored by Hughes. I can understand why people would not consider this sufficient, but together the other links, the Google Scholar hits, the book links, and the fact that there is an inherent notability argument under
563:
wants discussed for deletion. In his ban discussion, he was clear that he feels entitled to engage in sockpuppetry to "right wrongs", and allowing him to have any say in notability discussions or any other area of the site justifies that opinion in his mind. The only way this troll will finally disappear (four years since his ban, and he's still at it) is for the community to take a stand and enforce the ban by reverting and deleting every one of his edits on sight, and that includes the "harmless" and "not problematic" ones.
864:. As far as me having a COI issue, I only made the points I did (and admitted they were OR) to show why it won't be possible to find substantive independent coverage. It didn't go directly to the point of why the article should be deleted. There's an extra step there, if you see what I mean. Drover, let's the careful on Knowledge with accusations of slander. Legal threats are out of line big time - I'm not saying you actually issued a threat. I'm just heading off something at the pass before it gets to that point. Okay?
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is absurd. For the record, I don't know Hughes, have never been in a position to vote for him, and wouldn't have done so anyway. (Genuine question: are
Gibilisco and Horrigan personal friends of Hughes? I assume that's what you're referring to with the comment above.) Hughes almost certainly did edit the article, but that by itself is not a reason to delete (as far as I can tell almost none of his contributions remain anyway, apart from the birth date which should probably go without a source).
518:), and it therefore has no place on Knowledge. He deleted the template, and I have chosen not to get into a edit war. The SPI will verify these statements (trying to deny it with so many similarities, including the similarity to IP 124.180.170.151, which was blocked as one of his sockpuppets earlier this year, is just offensive). Let's block this IP, close this up, and focus on improving the encyclopedia with the help of people who have not excluded themselves from the community.
1012:"Admittedly I didn't check them all, but a lot of those 56 hits seem to merely be (a) letters to the editor which he's had published in Fairfax papers, (b) cursory "coverage" in which he's merely namechecked in passing in a list of by-election candidates, not actual coverage of him. The headline on more than half of those hits is either "letters" or "letters and e-mails", and even some of the ones with real headlines are actually still just the letters section."
760:- On procedural grounds, as this AfD was initiated by a sockpuppet of a banned user, and many of the rebuttals come from the aforementioned sockpuppet (let's not be so insulting as to claim that this outburst, that came only a day or two before the next JustaPunk outburst, is just a coincidence). Also per Frickeg, who was demonstrated multiple references in reliable sources, including a very direct statement that Vern Hughes is an important political figure.
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with the present content, it could easily be expanded with not much effort (and an editor offered to do so before the anon proceeded with this anyway), and he passes the GNG with no trouble. I'm still not writing the damn article because he's the rare modern
Australian political figure who does not interest me one iota, but he's clearly notable to anyone who was paying attention to Victorian politics throughout the 2000s.
52:. I'm closing this as no consensus because of the nature of arguments in both directions. I know him and think he's notable, and I know him and I don't think he's notable are neither of them --the argument has been dominated by those with personal knowledge to an extent that no conclusion can be formed. A new afd with argument based only on the sources might reach a conclusion
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voting the opposite way to what the IP wanted. I don't understand your suggestion about "personal friends" requiring a higher notability bar - "personal friends" of who? I will say that this comment, ironically enough, does smell of COI - it seems as if it's being based on your own personal dealings with Hughes rather than on the coverage of him that actually exists.
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treated with caution. Justa Punk shows a regular slippery slope cycle: an AfD request, a flurry of vindictive edits and edit wars, a block, and threats of more sockpuppets to come. He needs to be shut down from the outset. Regardless of the outcome of this AfD, I will be more forceful about pursuing speedy deletion of future sockpuppet AfDs from the outset.
1121:, a very small advocate organisation for community based self-reliance and mutualism, and he appears to play a pivotal role in a new political party being established in Victorian and New South Wales Politics in 2014 and 2015 - Voice of the West. He is listed as the contact for candidate CVs for Voice of the West for the Victorian State Election in 2014.
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879:"pay attention" just because, as someone who doesn't have a stake in the matter and doesn't know the man personally, I disagree with your conclusion and don't find any of the deletion arguments compelling. And if I were making legal threats, a) you'd know it, and b) I'd actually use the right language.
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I would be very, very surprised if the IP is not at least a former user, given their familiarity with deletion procedure. In any case the COI allegations are ridiculous and not really worthy of a response, other than to say that a look at either mine or TDW's contributions will indicate that the idea
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The first three links show one mention, and one mention only. So we can strike them out as proof of notability. If he's such a great disability advocate his name should be all over the disability peak bodies websites in
Victoria. Is it? I'm not familiar with the strength of Google Scholar but I doubt
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notability that isn't properly sourced — you need to show that enough reliable source coverage to get him over GNG actually exists, and so far that hasn't been done. And if there's a problem with an editor's behaviour, then that needs to be dealt with by dealing with the editor — his mere involvement
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Speedy application has been reported as vandalism. Matter is being handled by appropriate channels. I thought this user may have been a part of the COI issues with Vern Hughes, but I'm not so sure now. This looks more like paranoid behaviour that threatens the
Knowledge community but I don't know for
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As I said above, there are 56 hits for Hughes in the
Fairfax news database, I can't search News Limited without a Factiva subscription but it's fairly likely there's a similar number there, and he's also been fairly well-covered in Crikey over the years. His various bids for political office are much
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As
Frickeg said, this is a case of the IP just slandering any user who disagrees with him. I don't think I've ever edited the article, and I've said here that I find him a pretty boring figure albeit one who I do believe is notable, so I'm not sure why on earth one would think I had a COI apart from
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Good lord, it's a long time since I've been patronised quite that much. It's almost refreshing. And yes, I do believe that my links, in addition to a portion of the
Fairfax archive links, show substantive independent coverage. The election runs and People Power stuff is the meat of it; the academic
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Hon, you're someone who knows the guy and has strong feelings about him. I'm someone who reads about him in the paper from time to time, usually when he's running for political office. These COI claims are completely inappropriate. I resent the suggestion that I "haven't thought about it" or didn't
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Can I just say that one doesn't have to actually edit the article to have a COI issue. It also includes other behaviours - like trying to protect the article from deletion without seeming to really think about it and pay attention to what's being said (not by the IP, I mean the other users). You're
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So you are denying your refusal to admit that you have interpreted the notability requirement as depicted by
Bearcat isn't at the very least suspicious on the issue of "personal stake in it"? How about you explain in detail where your links show substantive independent coverage, and I can show you
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I had a quick look on
Factiva, and there are 33 articles from The Oz in there, the vast majority of which are letters to the editor. There is also an op-ed piece that he wrote, and a couple of articles on other subjects where Hughes provides a quote. There's also a smattering of coverage in what
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How is he notable? What are these sources? If he has such a long career where is his mainstream coverage? Many controversial personal claims (such as his date of birth) are unsourced so there is definitely a BLP issue here. If he doesn't interest you, doesn't that say something? Perhaps he doesn't
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That's what Bearcat said above to Drover and then repeated it to you. It's not substantive independent coverage - and that's all I need to say. We have no consensus possible here, because you won't evaluate or learn. If this AfD is ended as "no consensus" I will be giving serious consideration to
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Wait, no. Conflict of interest is not a catch-all designation for what you perceive to be badly thought-out votes, it has a specific meaning: that someone with a personal stake in the outcome has a role in the process. There isn't a shred of evidence that either TDW or I has anything resembling a
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First off, for what it's worth, the IP is not Justa Punk. Punk never had an interest in politics and as indicated in the SPI I know the guy IRL by his real name (which naturally I won't reveal). Secondly, I'm voting delete from a position of OR. I know Vern and and I know his reputation and I can
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With that said, I have absolutely no interest or knowledge on this topic or this AfD aside from the obvious sockpuppet issue. I believe it should be speedily deleted, but I can understand if you feel that it has gone too far. I would ask, however, that future requests to complete similar AfDs are
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Notable Australian political gadfly of many years, subject of plenty of reliable sources going back at least fifteen years. I find him wholly uninteresting, but when an editor asked I could turn up at least 100 hits for him in reliable sources in the space of five minutes. There are no BLP issues
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The AfD is problematic, as it is the channel through which he slides back into Knowledge on a regular basis. As someone whose repeated actions over many years got him a community ban--not a block--he does not deserve a voice on Knowledge, and that includes telling other editors which articles he
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and all the rest (easily found via a quick Google search). Hughes is probably the best-known disability advocate in Victoria. I would also say the various opinion pieces he's authored, for numerous publications over the last fifteen years, are indicative of his significance. (I will augment the
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where you're going wrong in similar detail. And remember - we are attempting to achieve a consensus here, not arguing about who's right and who's wrong, and the best way to do that is to discuss, evaluate and learn. If you've seen something that I've missed now's the time to bring it forth.
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assessment of the sources that were offered — somewhere between half and two-thirds of the hits in that Fairfax database link were headlined "Letters and e-mails". And for the record, I live in Canada and thus have no "personal stake" in anything pertaining to any Australian politician.
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I was the editor that completed the AfD on a request. Regardless of whether the IP is evading a block - which should be dealt with elsewhere - the AfD is not problematic (there are clearly concerns about the subject's notability) and so I am happy to take responsibility for it. Thanks,
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conflict of interest, and I'd like to thank the other participants for ignoring the "allegations" as the feeble attempts they were. Also, it's good to know the personal friends that invalidated the "links provided by Frickeg" were, in fact, just one of them. Not at all misleading.
997:. Consensus does not mean badgering everyone to one point or another. And yes, I am absolutely denying that I have any "personal stake" in this, and furthermore that there is any reason to suppose I do, and this is absolutely the last time I will address that ridiculous issue.
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references I included are mostly corroboration, although also clearly suggestive of further coverage in sources that may not be available at our fingertips. Quite simply, we disagree on the fundamental point of whether what has been provided constitutes substantive coverage.
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I think his academic and authorship background, participation and advocation for mutual community based organisation and politics, as well as his involvement in politics over several years makes him inherently notable, even if detailed third party sources are
307:, but a lot of those 56 hits seem to merely be (a) letters to the editor which he's had published in Fairfax papers, (b) cursory "coverage" in which he's merely namechecked in passing in a list of by-election candidates, not actual coverage
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probably right about the IP being a former user of some description, but all that matters there is that it's not Justa Punk (end of that one). The "personal friend" I was talking about was Latham. The birth date requires a source under
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at all, but this article as written is not sourced enough to stay and the 56 Fairfax database hits that The Drover's Wife noted above are mostly just letters to the editor rather than substantive coverage. The article as written does
693:, in particular the date of birth. That's serious in anyone's language. I'll add in closing that this user is also subject to the COI issues in my opinion along with The Drover's Wife. Neutrality is clearly absent with both of them.
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And as I said above, a lot of those 56 Fairfax hits are just letters to the editor or namecheck sources which merely mention his name in passing as a candidate in a by-election, and few to none of them seem to constitute the
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advocacy. Opinion pieces published in major newspapers also indicate a certain standing in the community as a leader, commentator or expert, and should not be disregarded when assessing a person's notability for
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It doesn't seem to me that there is significant independent coverage of him. I also don't think he's a notable politician since he hasn't been elected to any position that would automatically show notability.
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412:, I've had a look and I could only find the sort of fluff one would expect from a religious dial-a-quote; lots of "Vern Hughes says such-and-such", but not much independent coverage of the man himself. If
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appear to be regional Victorian papers that I looked at; in most cases these were about other topics, mostly the party that Hughes is involved in, and again had a quote or statement by Hughes but nothing
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article with a few of these sources too, of course.) (Edit: I also want to note that there are no BLP issues in the current version, let alone "severe" ones as the IP claims.)
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Completing nomination for an IP. Rationale was "Contested prod. Severe BLP issues with many claims unsourced. Makes absolutely no claim to notability." I am neutral.
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662:, all this in addition to the coverage demonstrated above concerning People Power (almost all of the non-letters to the editor in the Fairfax archive) in addition to
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has had more luck finding sources it would be good if they could post them here, if they are better than what I've found I'm quite prepared to strike this !vote.
236:? If you have so many sources, let's see them. Until then, his notability has not been established and that fulfills the criteria for this article to be deleted.
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257:- I did the Google search, not finding much beyond circular references and opinion pieces written by the subject. No notable coverage by independent sources.
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a claim of notability that gets a person into Knowledge — if you cannot adequately source that a person is already notable enough for inclusion under a
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for Hughes in the Fairfax news database. That's stretching "no notable coverage" somewhat impressively. He's also been fairly well covered by
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514:- This should have been speedily deleted, and I placed the appropriate template. This AfD is initiated by a sockpuppet of a banned user (
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So to clarify, you consider letters to the editor written by the subject and single mentions in books substantive independent coverage?
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I have added references to some of his social policy publications by conservative think tanks, and also the influence and support for
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an election, not just run in it, to get notability under NPOL. So actually, being able to properly source the social-commentator tilt
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than half of those hits is either "letters" or "letters and e-mails", and even some of the ones with real headlines are actually
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No, I consider that a mischaracterisation of the sources from someone with a personal stake in the matter.
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trump the question of whether this article, as written, meets our inclusion and quality standards or not.
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would go a long way to restoring the civil tone that (IP excepting) was prevailing here a few days ago.
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Bearcat (who made the point first and I was simply clarifying it) has a personal stake in it?
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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450:. 56 hits does not necessarily equal 56 useful or valid sources — you need to evaluate for
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would qualify him, in my view put him over the top. Lastly, I would say that a little
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more notable than the random-social-commentator tilt the article currently takes.
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him. Nothing, in other words, that counts as significant coverage, in my view.
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1043:(as a leader of a major-sub-national registered political party), none of which
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re-nominating it, and putting a better case than the IP through Black Kite did.
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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
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Yes, it is a former major-sub-national registered political party. Keep up.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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of enough coverage to get over GNG. Notability is a question of
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it provides to weight required to get this over the line.
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of their unsuccessful candidacies, then they have to
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393:list of Christianity-related deletion discussions
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711:once, and only once, in a couple of books about
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391:Note: This debate has been included in the
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599:demonstrate that he passes
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1145:Mark Latham
995:That's fine
709:namechecked
444:substantive
234:not notable
163:free images
78:Vern Hughes
70:Vern Hughes
1152:Knowledge.
791:Randykitty
715:things is
1199:talk page
1149:Third Way
495:Lankiveil
460:different
418:Lankiveil
37:talk page
1201:or in a
1037:this one
937:accurate
780:Relisted
627:properly
597:actually
593:actually
398:innotata
381:innotata
364:innotata
347:innotata
122:View log
39:or in a
1125:scarce.
1053:Frickeg
999:Frickeg
965:Frickeg
942:Bearcat
832:Frickeg
741:Bearcat
733:include
721:subject
669:Frickeg
631:Bearcat
614:asserts
610:WP:NPOL
476:Bearcat
452:quality
321:Bearcat
283:56 hits
169:WP refs
157:scholar
95:protect
90:history
1171:Delete
1154:Takver
1127:Takver
862:WP:BLP
808:Delete
707:Being
691:WP:BLP
623:Delete
601:WP:GNG
533:sure.
448:WP:GNG
410:Delete
287:Crikey
255:Delete
141:Google
99:delete
737:about
713:other
491:about
317:still
266:photo
210:Keep.
184:JSTOR
145:books
129:Stats
116:views
108:watch
104:links
60:talk
16:<
1180:talk
1158:talk
1131:talk
1116:Keep
1087:talk
1073:talk
1057:talk
1023:talk
1003:talk
984:talk
969:talk
946:talk
927:talk
913:talk
899:talk
885:talk
870:talk
851:talk
836:talk
817:talk
795:talk
766:talk
758:Keep
745:talk
699:talk
673:talk
664:this
644:Keep
635:talk
579:talk
539:talk
524:talk
480:talk
433:talk
325:talk
313:more
295:talk
242:talk
219:talk
177:FENS
151:news
112:logs
86:talk
82:edit
1147:'s
1033:did
729:him
727:of
717:not
619:not
606:not
468:win
456:not
395:. —
378:. —
361:. —
344:. —
305:all
261:Sea
191:TWL
120:– (
55:DGG
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