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think about it as links to google maps/bing maps)? The template design is not really my business and not a bot issue. I know there has been some discussion to revise it. There are no subpages in the article space (but yes, that would be the preferable location to me, too) so we had to resort to moving it into talk space. It won't be likely to interfere with article discussions and won't pollute the article namespace. The basic idea here is to keep momentum going for a useful new geocoding device that emerged from an initially heated but now very productive discussion process. All involved people are fully aware that the technical implementation could be better, but we also realize that if we wait for the necessary technical changes in the MediaWiki software (i.e. uploading of xml data on commons) we will have to wait for a
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then there is the security issue with IE6. Sure, you can craft a KML that wont trigger the IE6 security check, but I can tell you with certainty that KML upload won't be enabled in that state. It would just be confusing to the users if some files are "randomly" rejected. Bottom line still is that File: does not provide significant (or any) advantages over
Template: space. --
946:. Looks good to me. The bot is set to only touch articles where it an unambiguously place the Attached_KML template. The generated KML displays fine in the WikiMiniAtlas and on the two proprietary mapping services. I should add the article title into th KML file so it shows up when viewing it in Google Maps. Just please do not suffocate a great idea. --
692:
Agree, and two other people on the GeoProject also think this is the way to go. Template subpages can be understood as auxilliary material supporting the main template. Template documentation pages are subpages of templates as well, and they are not meant to be included. It is easy to shoot down such
316:
Thanks for the feedback, Josh. The examples were added fully manually, I mentioned that I intend to put the template before the cats, that would be a technically simple solution. Of course detecting the
External links heading is not hard either, but is it really an external link (yes, I guess, if you
1063:
ing revisions, if it were allowed, would not be meaningful for jpeg, gif, and png media, though it would be handy with svg, and now kml. Since this technique is breaking new wikiground, it could well drive the needed supporting technology to fruition. In fact, it is a compelling case for mediawiki
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Since the KML data is never included, but only a bunch of links is generated, a template on any language wikipedia may refer to the KML data on the english wikipedia and vice versa. Mediawiki development is really nice, but a bit of wishful thinking right now. It is not a reason to block a solution
1033:
I do not see the advantages of File: namespace, in File you cannot edit the data. KML is a simple XML file. Quick edits are possible and diffs make sense. KML was proposed as an allowed filetype over 14 months ago, a first patch was provided over 12 months ago but reverted only shortly after. Since
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Having agreed that
Template subpages are currently better than File pages and uploads, should the subpage name include ".kml" at the end? This might help downloaders assign an appropriate file extension (or mime type). It might also make KML pages easier to identify by a simple rule independent of
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I see you're pushing along discussions relevant to this BRfA elsewhere; I can't see anywhere that consideration of links inside the infobox instead of / in addition to the separate template. Please make an effort to form a consensus for the template-box over inline infobox links; I don't feel the
365:
Ok, I'm pretty much ready for a limited test run on a handful of pages, if that is ok. I programmed the bot to search for an external links section, and if it does not find one, it inserts it either after "Further reading" or "References", whatever is found first. I will skip articles that either
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Ok, I reversed the edit order (thanks for the suggestion, it makes sense). Thereby I introduced a bug which associated the wrong coordinate data with some counties (St. Charles Parish, Louisiana was given the data of a county in North Dakota). This is fixed now in the code and I re-processed the
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Either way, I'm perfectly fine with uploading things in the template namespace, at least as a temporary solution, and whenever MW supports KML/KMZ files, the transition to File namespace can be done at that moment. The template should be placed in the
External link sections, before any links and
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Now the hard one - aesthetics. I prefer a modification to the infobox (which has the upside of the article not needing modifying at all, making a much simpler, quicker bot), but other involved editors may have a preference to make the links in a separate template, placed at some point in the
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template it creates a new external links section right after the reflist (please read closely what I wrote, it is complicated!!!). The reason is the suggested section order in the MOS. I currently have no solution to find the end of a further reading section (it can be a dangling end with
1321:
Perhaps I don't understand the question, but shouldn't *both* be implemented? The infobox to do the majority of existing articles, and a template for articles lacking a supported infobox, or for providing alternate data, or layers, or what-have-you which has not been thought of yet.
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I like the general concept too, except I worry such an arrangement could make it hard to identify attempts to hijack a page's content by injecting what, on the surface, looks to be legitimate transclusion. My first thought is to create a new namespace, perhaps KML.
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may make this bot request superfluous. The data from the WIWOSM project is already being displayed in the WikiMiniAtlas and it will only be a matter of time until the tagging of the OSM database gets to U.S. counties. Then they will appear on the map automatically.
1095:. For the reader it makes no difference where that data is hosted. They are the customers. Pandering to order and structure loving editors is nice and important to keep the project running smoothly, but here we are talking about a fairly structured solution vs. a
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To
Dschwen - You should upload the markup before putting the template on the article. This way the article cache will be up-to-date after the bot edits the page, and if something goes wrong (Knowledge in read-only-mode), the article will not have bogus
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This occurred to me over night: KML would be most suitable in 'File:' space. They are a lot like an .SVG file, and possibly future development will automatically handle (display, annotate) a KML in the same way a .PNG, .GIF, or .JPEG is handled now.
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solution (and the perfectness is highly debatable!). Please by all means push for a solution you think is better, but do not stop work now, because there is an easy and obvious transition path from what we have now, to what we may get sometime.
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I think you should drop a note on USRoads as well. They were discussing doing something similar with Roads, Highways, INterstates, etc. I agree with Josh too, the WPUS and WPUSCounties projects suddenly got very quite over the past few weeks.
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Ok, will do. And yes, we could add it to infobox county (but I'll leave that to the county guys). Right now the bot is creating a new external links section at the lostations I pointed out (it does not just put it into further reading!).
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Thanks for the feedback. I was surprised how little interest there has been in previous threads on the template talkpage, compared with the move to template space discussed here, but I agree that
Template Talk is the logical
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You are also correct that putting the data anywhere it can be used is a very good idea. Even if it has to (and can be) moved later. Semantically, template space is better than talk subpages, so I rescind my suggestion of
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that is good enough right now. When a better solution has been developed some time in the future it will be trivial to whip up a bot that moves all KML data to commons. But we have something that is useful for the reader
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the template (similar to the way .css and .js pages are currently treated specially in certain namespaces by virtue of the pagename). At present, the subpages are all named identically to the mainspace articles. But
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namespace, the data can live either on any project language wiki, or on commons and it will be conveniently resolved. I am pretty sure that is not true of all other namespaces. KML data is a natural fit for
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appear in the article text). This is a new geocoding method that was developed during the last few weeks. The outlines will be displayed on the WikiMiniAtlas and can also be viewed using Google/Bing Maps
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Can you please discuss details like this at the template page? It does not seem appropriate for this venue, and won't get any attention by the right people who are involved with the template. --
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What if the
External Links section doesn't exist? Should the bot use the See Also section if it's there? Or can it create an External Links section? What if there is no See Also section?
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template to also accept data at the new location
Template:Attached_KML/PAGENAME. The bot will be uploading there and existing KML files can be moved without disruption that way. --
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could easily be modified to append ".kml" to the name of the template subpage used in the external links. We could change this now before there are very many subpages to move.
1059:
The points about it not being editable is also true of images. For most modification, they have to be downloaded, edited with client PC software, and reuploaded to commons.
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parses TIGER Line US Census shape files and extracts individual US county outlines. The outlines are converted to KML and attached to the respective county articles using the
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won't trip the <head* filter. I think it should go to ns:File. But under what name? Can any further use for KML files be foreseen other than a single use per article?
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broken counties. Sorry, but i guess that put me a little above the 10 edits! I also updated the KML to include a link back to the
Knowledge article. Further suggestions? --
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Technique for linking the article to the KML (I'm hoping some interested editors will chime in regarding a separate template vs an additional field in the County infobox)
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I'm not convinced that it's time for a first trial. I believe there's a number of aspects of this proposal that aren't nailed down, certainly not to my satisfaction.
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to this BRfA, but it looks like it's a pretty quiet wikiproject. I don't forsee any objections, but equally I'm not hopeful on others chiming in. Also raise it at
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navigational templates and categories under the same heading). I could scan the section for a *-list and assume the end of the *-list is the end of the section. --
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There are two good points here; Files can't be diff'd, but they can be shared by
Commons. I'd lean towards the diff being more important for detecting vandalism.
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Bot will create a new page Talk:Article/KML (unless it already exists), bot will generate the correct KML outline data and upload it on said page, bot will place
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I agree there is a need for such a discussion before we can proceed with more extensive testing. Specifically, the discussion should deal with these questions:
852:
Alright, then let's go with a small trial just to make sure things aren't completely broken. Then we'll go for a larger trial to make sure things work fine.
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template, or that already have an existing KML data page. Articles are just skipped and stored for manual processing if any of the conditions are not met. --
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Yes, I know, that is where the whole thing originated. The discussion moved to the GeoProject page and some road people are still very involved. --
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Should the bot wait for editors to place an infobox, so things are done right the first time around instead of requiring cleanup in the future?
646:(click on a coord globe to activate) is a pretty clever applet which retrieves the data from the /KML subpage of the article's talk page. (See
664:
Well transcluded or not, it's certainly not an article, not a discussion, and the template namespace is the best to handle that sort of thing.
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A map of a county isn't really further reading, and it barely passes as a reference - is it referred to in the article? I suggest, in order:
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I haven't examined the trial. I feel this is a useful task, I have no intention of smothering it; I want it done right the first time.
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Colour me stupid, but isn't there a need to pass KML to external websites to render, rather than transclude it into the article page?
88:
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time and this thing will just die. This is about putting the idea out there, giving it exposure and demonstrating it's usefulness. --
420:? That seems a more natural fit. If you were to go down that route, I'd suggest creating all the talk/kml pages and then modifying
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Currently the bot places it at the top of the external links section, if it finds neither external links nor further reading but a
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above navigational templates. When the template and bots are updated to take this into account, we can move into trial phase.
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In other words, should we move each existing "Template:Article KML/articletitle" to "Template:Article KML/articletitle.kml"?
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Approved for trial (10 edits). Please provide a link to the relevant contributions and/or diffs when the trial is complete.
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for examples.) The point is that nothing should transclude KML data. So being in template space is not quite correct. —
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set up. But you are correct: there is no way to link to it, not from enwiki, and not even from commons. See item 4 at
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Should the bot place it in the External Links section (or failing that, the See Also section) as a temporary solution?
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In the example, I don't like the positioning of the KML link; I think it should be in the External Links section.
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What's the rush for a temporary solution? Let's talk this out and get to the final solution and avoid rework.
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350:. All those bots are custom developments and have a fairly high edit volume, for fairly complex edits. --
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It won't pass, there's no need for a new namespace for something that is no different than a template.
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Given the KML is associated with the article, why is it a subpage of the talk rather than the article?
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It seems resolved: template space is the least worst place to put it. I presume that's been tested?
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If the box continues to float right, I suggest putting it at the start of these kinds of sections.
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The KML infobox is terrible, far too editor-centric (but this is not a bot issue in of itself).
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Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates#Autogeneration_of_U.S._highway_KML
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Would the best place for these links to be in an infobox (presumably through a
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Destination of the KML (I'm hoping for some discussion of the File: namespace)
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tags is evidently supported by MediaWiki. What about the mapping services? —
697:, but it certainly is better than putting it on a subpage of article talk. --
1419:
Assuming the preferred place for these links is the External Links section:
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To Josh - What exactly would need to be nailed down before proceeding, IYO?
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Quite right. There is no need for transclusion of KML data. The template
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follows from the conversation there. A stripped-down KML format missing
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for example. I have a better source for geometric overlay data now. --
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Alternate data? Layers? Please explain these possible future needs.
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The bot is ready (placement is already performed as you describe). --
1091:. We want them to get rich geodata to illustrate wikipedia articles
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See also, but also note I'm not crazy about the use of a template.
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in the article text at the bottom before the first category link.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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parameter), or in the external links section, or somewhere else?
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Are there any counties that don't have the county infobox? Why?
1608:
To request review of this BRFA, please start a new section at
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39:
To request review of this BRFA, please start a new section at
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Assuming the preferred place for these links is the infobox:
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But I'm one guy. We really need more people eyeballing this.
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What if those sections don't exist? Can the bot create them?
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Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates#Outlines
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Hmm, I need advice: Where should the template be placed in
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going to happen. at least not in our lifetime. Please read
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to hard-reference the KML non-optionally. An entry like:
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developing, maintaining, and running bots on commons:
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http://commons.wikimedia.org/File:NYstateroute308.kml
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A technical comment. That stuff really should be in
1396:What happens if a county does not have an infobox?
1064:development to handle KML in a suitable manner. —
458:in the hope that will attract more participation.
334:If it makes anybody more comfortable, I do have a
201:Links to relevant discussions (where appropriate):
1549:So, do you want to continue pursuing this BRFA?
1132:- it can't be shared by Commons at this time. --
33:The following discussion is an archived debate.
1410:Can the bot create the infobox if it's missing?
1628:Withdrawn Knowledge bot requests for approval
192:template (note that the actual KML data does
8:
1517:community has given it due consideration.
1216:is, of course, the documentation subpage).
1210:Special:PrefixIndex/Template:Attached KML/
881:Thanks! I have modified the (now renamed)
1350:Such discussion would be better on, say
1266:Template talk:Attached KML#KML pagenames
1169:After jumping through some hoops, I got
561:I like that suggestion. I brought it up
456:Knowledge talk:WikiProject United States
452:Knowledge talk:WikiProject U.S. counties
1013:What I consider the unresolved issues:
221:3143 (the total number of US counties)
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1047:The clearest advantage is handling by
1264:Subpage renaming suggestion moved to
286:Santa Fe County, New Mexico (pre KML)
158:automatic (with initial supervision)
7:
1558:No, forget it. Check out the WMA in
823:Talk:Santa Fe County, New Mexico/KML
520:namespace. Have have something like
276:Talk:Santa Fe County, New Mexico/KML
693:a suggestion because it is not the
219:Estimated number of pages affected:
28:
1212:for subpages in use (except that
530:Template:Attached KML/ARTICLENAME
410:Have you considered adding it to
156:Automatic, Supervised, or Manual:
148:22:38, Friday February 24, 2012 (
45:The result of the discussion was
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821:Unless I'm mistaken, the KML at
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167:python (pywikipedia framework)
1051:. By referring to KML in the
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642:generates external links.
281:Santa Fe County, New Mexico
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1605:Please do not modify it.
215:one time (per US state)
176:will be made available
36:Please do not modify it.
942:Ugh, great. Just ran a
1580:Withdrawn by operator.
902:Winn Parish, Louisiana
239:Already has a bot flag
915:per my earlier advice
434:County boundaries on
52:Withdrawn by operator
22:Requests for approval
1306:Infobox or template?
1175:commons:User:EncMstr
447:might fit in nicely.
163:Programming language
746:not going to happen
425:Infobox U.S. County
415:Infobox U.S. County
366:already contain an
226:Exclusion compliant
1006:Further discussion
744:I don't see where
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1358:Andy Mabbett
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1313:Josh Parris
1201:Josh Parris
1123:Josh Parris
1049:wikicommons
1025:Josh Parris
934:Josh Parris
923:Josh Parris
827:Josh Parris
812:Josh Parris
623:Josh Parris
528:transclude
460:Josh Parris
308:Josh Parris
172:Source code
146:Time filed:
1274:Richardguk
1238:Richardguk
944:small test
402:References
340:DschwenBot
267:Discussion
174:available:
114:rights log
104:page moves
60:DschwenBot
1311:article.
1185:space. —
1089:right now
127:Operator:
109:block log
1622:Category
1474:contribs
1466:Headbomb
1435:contribs
1427:Headbomb
1056:commons.
977:contribs
969:Headbomb
863:contribs
855:Headbomb
782:contribs
774:Headbomb
727:This is
675:contribs
667:Headbomb
600:contribs
592:Headbomb
543:contribs
535:Headbomb
514:template
140:contribs
84:contribs
20: |
1610:WT:BRFA
1564:Dschwen
1541:Dschwen
1506:Dschwen
1498:reflist
1478:physics
1439:physics
1324:EncMstr
1252:Dschwen
1187:EncMstr
1102:Dschwen
1097:perfect
1066:EncMstr
1036:Dschwen
998:Dschwen
981:physics
948:Dschwen
906:Dschwen
893:Dschwen
867:physics
801:Dschwen
786:physics
758:EncMstr
754:heading
737:Dschwen
715:EncMstr
699:Dschwen
679:physics
652:EncMstr
604:physics
577:EncMstr
567:Dschwen
547:physics
494:Dschwen
480:Kumioko
470:Dschwen
378:Dschwen
352:Dschwen
323:Dschwen
319:looongg
272:Example
130:Dschwen
41:WT:BRFA
1352:WT:GEO
1260:place.
913:Well,
436:Google
348:QICbot
346:, and
344:VICbot
336:record
1588:KNOWZ
1482:books
1443:books
1388:|kml=
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1053:File:
985:books
959:links
871:books
840:Trial
790:books
750:title
683:books
608:books
551:books
242:(Y/N)
230:(Y/N)
89:count
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1592:TALK
1586:HELL
1560:Fiji
1470:talk
1431:talk
1328:talk
1278:talk
1242:talk
1214:/doc
1191:talk
1141:7754
1138:chen
1070:talk
1061:Diff
973:talk
859:talk
778:talk
762:talk
752:and
735:. --
719:talk
671:talk
656:talk
596:talk
581:talk
565:. --
563:here
539:talk
518:talk
484:talk
440:Bing
165:(s):
134:talk
119:flag
99:logs
79:talk
69:BRFA
1365:);
1093:now
729:not
438:or
194:not
150:UTC
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