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doesn't delete (tag for deletion) the original category like it should. This should happen right after it finishes emptying the category. I think the issue is either caching or MediaWiki thinks the category still has members. (It checks that the category is empty before trying to delete.) You'll see for the categories being emptied, if the script is run again it will delete (tag for deletion) the second time around. This doesn't happen for moves/merges since there is a check that the destination category does not exist at the start of processing. (It will always exist a second time around.) This is something I can work on fixing. The fix could be 1) adding a delay before checking that the original category is empty, 2) moving categories without leaving a redirect, or 3) removing the check that the destination category must exist. —
1246:
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1575:. It is, in my experience (having spent countless hours deleting inappropriate cat-redirects), more time-consuming to properly delete a page than to undelete it or just type {{Category redirect|Foo}}, and the risk of error is inherently greater when an action is necessary to avoid errors (i.e. deleting an inappropriate cat-redirect) than when an action is optionally helpful (i.e. creating an appropriate cat-redirect).
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not always the same as the category name (e.g. group nominations). Second, and more importantly, moving categories should be done without leaving a redirect. Another bot automatically recategorizes any pages placed in a redirected category, and so auto-creating category redirects dramatically increases the likelihood for miscategorization—see
1616:, Leaving redirects is a normal function of page moves. It is appropriate in some cases, inappropriate in others, with lots of grey in between. I personally think you are being way too absolutist about this, and that there are better solutions than simply disabling all creation of redirects. That's why any change needs to be discussed.
1382:, I thought we had had agreed to leave the possibility of changes to the bot's behaviour for a separate discussion? I agree that we need some changes, but I don't agree that the issues in either case are quite as you describe them, and I am disappointed to see them being raised here and now. They both need more discussion at
1730:
Regarding consensus... a lack of any alternative is not indicative of consensus—implicit or otherwise. Quite simply, a malfunctioning bot was better than none at all. So, in response to your ultimate question, I will not oppose JJMC89's bot going live no matter what. My preference remains for the bot
1671:
I do not object to a consensus-forming discussion, and I am agree we should probably continue this discussion elsewhere. What I do object to is purposely retaining a bug that performs a function was never approved in the first place. When it comes to auto-creation of pages, consensus historically has
1602:
I'm sorry, my intention was not to create more work for you. I will be appreciative of what you're doing however the code ends up, but I struggle with including a function that was never approved to begin with. In general, I've always struggled with the idea of bots auto-creating pages without narrow
754:
Thanks for pinging me, and I don't disagree with you, fundamentally. More participation would undoubtedly have been better, and I probably should not have assumed many people watchlisted WP:CFD/W, but all the manual work required to close out
Cydebot's processing was becoming quite tiresome after two
1374:
As to redirects, there are many situations where it is appropriate to have them, and it is much easier (and less error-prone) to delete the un-needed redirects than to create them when omitted. Personally, I would favour a flexible approach with some new language of bot instruction. So instead of an
1116:
do you have "human friendly" documentation (e.g. what you will do, when you will do it, and under what conditions) for this? Since this bot is going to almost entirely be edits and actions you are responsible for, but will be triggered by other admins - it should be clear to other admins what their
1696:
create redirects would also create a high error rate. I am very well aware of what RussBot does, and why ambiguous redirects should not be retained, but simply switching from one binary option to another creates as many problems as it solves. Describing the current process as a bug with a simple
1316:
Changing the edit summary is easy. Personally, I dislike having to find the correct section when a daily log is linked without a section. The code doesn't assume that the section is the name of the category. It looks for the category as a heading or a link to the category in nomination part of each
1295:
Awesome! I have two thoughts, and hopefully they are both quick fixes. First, the summary should link only to the daily log page, not the section—partly, this would be to keep the summary shorter (which will be important when dealing with long category names), and partly because the section name is
1415:
Section links do get carried over from CFDW; however, I did add a feature to try to add section links when not provided because I find them helpful. (See some details in my reply to Black Falcon above.) Based on
Cydebot's code, Cydebot is supposed to be deleting the redirects, but it isn't. My bot
1367:
I did so because I had noticed that CydeBot just used whatever was in that header, and it seemed to me that there is no advantage in omitting them now that the length of edit summaries is almost unconstrained. However, I had not foreseen that it would coincide with the bot trial, so sorry for any
1272:
Since the bot isn't an admin yet, categories were tagged for deletion instead of deleted. Some of them got tagged multiple times, but this is just an artifact of not being an admin and me stopping and starting the script to limit the trial edits. It has the same problem that
Cydebot does where it
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fix and disagree it would "create as many problems as it solves". I acknowledge that this will result in some appropriate redirects not being created, which inconveniences navigation. However, the alternative results in inappropriate redirects being created, which produces actual errors through
1663:
Please don't misunderstand me, I do agree that there is "lots of grey in between". Between the two extremes of clearly appropriate cat-redirects (e.g. hyphen-to-dash redirects) and clearly inappropriate cat-redirects (acronym-to-full name redirects), there are many others that are harder to
1585:
Re: checking backlinks, unforrtunately, I think that will continue to have to be performed manually regardless of whether a cat-redirect is retained. A bot may be able to help, but I don't see a bot being able to account for and fix all possible scenarios of incoming links. --
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This is simply an issue which has not been resolved since category pages became movable in 2014. It needs a consensus, but consensus-building is not helped by one editor trying to sway BAG by describing the bot's failure to conform to their personal preference as a "bug".
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inherited that issue since it uses the same code for that. What we do with the redirects right now isn't a big concern for me. A granular system can be worked out later. For now, I can either keep doing what
Cydebot has been doing or fix the code to delete the redirects. —
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should suppress redirects when moving. Since we're moving without leaving a redirect, I could just delete the category regardless of it it has members for merge/empty. Otherwise, I will have to do some live testing figure out a good delay before checking if it is empty.
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does not mention the possibility of redirects, either in the proposal or in the discussion. CydeBot was approved long before category page became movable, and its actions since moving was enabled have conformed to the default process for moving pages, i.e. leave a
816:
This BRFA is to take over
Cydebot's current functionality. The enhancements, particularly the last two points, are out of scope. After this is up and running (with any bugs are worked out), I'll be happy to look at making enhancements that have consensus.
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months. In terms of the functionality I requested, only the last three items are enhancements compared to what
Cydebot currently does or did when it was functioning properly, and I did note the last two needed more discussion/testing. As I mentioned at
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Categories are not the same as other pages when it comes to leaving redirects after moves, because bots patrol cat-redirects and move any contents into the target category. When inappropriate cat-redirects are created, this leads to pages being
487:
Cyde's code is part of
Pywikibot, but Cydebot is not using the current version. I haven't made changes to the scripts yet, but other maintainers have. There haven't been any changes that would change the functionality of this task.
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Cydebot has done its job almost unchanged for ~13 years. AFAIK, the only significant change was when category pages became movable in 2014. So the bot's functions are stable and well understood by the admins who instruct it. Since
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I agree that the redirects thing should be simple. However, the precise details of what a bot would do in next two cases needs a lot of scrutiny. It would be easy for an ill-specified bot to wreak much havoc in templates.
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miscategorization. I would rather take inconvenience over outright errors. And, yes, we can consider other (non-binary) options, but those have not been tried before and would need to be discussed and tested.
1849:
This task shall proceed as described to keep things flowing. As far as the issue with the redirects is concerned, the "implicit consensus" will stand for now until such time as a discussion deems otherwise.
1672:
been to take the more cautious approach that minimizes the likelihood of errors. And from a BRFA standpoint, it is simply not feasible to demonstrate that the bug results in an acceptably low error rate. --
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I'm not sure, but there could be. It would probably be best to disable
Cydebot since Cyde isn't fixing any of the bugs, which is the original reason it was requested for someone else to take over the task.
948:
I suspect there could be issues with both of these bots trying to run the same page on top of each other - do you want to proceed as a backup plan, or do you want to try to work in tandem going forward? —
1748:
persists in describing as a "bug" something for which there is no consensus on optimal behaviour. I have seen no evidence that CydeBot was approved either to create redirects or not to create redirects:
448:
Since Cyde is inactive, I am requesting t:o take over the task so that bugs can be fixed and feature requests implemented. Additionally, Cydebot will stop functioning at the end of March due to the
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discussion on the daily log page and links to that section. I don't think there is a danger of running out of space in the edit summary, but if it is the appearance, what about piping it like
779:
1196:'s bot is designed to be a drop-in-replacement, I don't see any need for more docs as a precondition -- provided the new bot passes its test, without which this discussion is moot anyway.
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I also do not think redirects should be indiscriminately deleted. We are checking the backlinks anyway, and deleting a redirect takes much less time than checking backlinks anyway.--
1622:
And the effect of your insistence on using this discussion to change the behaviour of the bot is to delay the approval of the new bot at a point when the old bot is apparently gone.
1629:? And why instead you are trying to use BRFA to unilaterally force a change in the way that the bot had worked for nearly 5 years? This is not the way that consensus is built.
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parameters and/or human input. As you pointed out, Cydebot was not supposed to be leaving redirects but started to do so at some point, and for very good reason in my view. --
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to do, and not to continue mass page-creation on the basis of inertia stemming from an unfixed bug, but ultimately I will defer to BAG on the appropriate course of action. --
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be mass-creating pages when there is such a high error rate. I agree that there some situations where a cat-redirect is appropriate but strongly disagree that it is
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So please can we keep this process focused on the v urgent task of getting a drop-in replacement for the now apparently-defunct
Cydebot? That was the basis on which
510:
I've now rewritten the code that parses the working page. The code that moves/deletes the categories and re-categorizes the pages is still the same as
Cydebot's. —
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In principle, I very much welcome idea of a new bot with extended functionality. (There are some major gaps in the current feature set).. However, I think that @
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So I hope that any new bot will run initially with the same functionality as CydeBot. Any enhancements need a clear consensus, which we don't yet have. --
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Of course, if more functions are added, then docs will be appropriate. But right now a backlog is building up, so we need a bot and need it urgently. --
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In particular, the work required to close out CydeBot's efforts is v onerous, and I dearly wish that could be improved. I have been cleaning up after
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Accept manual input when a category redirect should be created—for example, by recognizing leading text when a redirect is wanted, such as * REDIRECT
1143:, including the HTML comment, aren't sufficient I can write something more detailed. The intent is to function as Cydebot is intended to function. —
1358:
I presume that the inclusion of section links in the edit summaries is an artefact of me having left the section links in the WP:CFDW pages: here
21:
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993:. Cydebot stopped running more than 24h ago, and we are currently paralyzed with categories. It were great if this request could be approved.--
782:, which renamed ~650 categories, and so far it has taken me about 8 hours to process about 400 of those. There has to be a better way somehow.
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Recognize and update category code in transcluded templates. This would need to be discussed/tested to minimize errors and false positives.
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I don't see any benefit in piping the summaries to hide the section link. That just wastes space in the summary and misleads the readers.
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for just a few examples. This will take care of the issue in cases of renaming but not merging, where solutions 1 or 3 may be needed. --
475:
You say it's "based on" Cydebot's code, presumably meaning that you made changes. Can you please summarize the effects of these changes?
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Recognize and update incoming links to the old category. This would need to be discussed/tested to minimize errors and false positives.
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did you have concerns that getting started under those "rules" would be an issues (would it be worse then just not running at all?) —
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The "reactivating" was of the BAG assistance needed template, to get a BAG to come by and issue a trial (since Cydebot is crucial to
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As far as I can tell, auto-creating tens of thousands of cat-redirects was never an approved function for Cydebot, and a bot should
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categorize and even more that are better judged based on usefulness than appropriateness. This is precisely why, in my view, a bot
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had few participants (I think only 4) and had not been widely notified; the suggested extra functionality needs more discussion.
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Approved for trial (250 edits). Please provide a link to the relevant contributions and/or diffs when the trial is complete.
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The big picture is that on both edit summaries and redirects, JJMC89's bot seems to be behaving exactly as CydeBot does. @
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I haven't so far seen anything on the list of suggested improvements, which I would dislike, and I see much I am v keen on.
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However, it now turns out that a replacement is needed soon, so thanks to JJMC89 for stepping up in the nick of time.
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so ... please can you clarify whether you oppose or support JJMC89's bot going live to do exactly as Cydebot did? --
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yea, Fluxbot for CFDS is only on-demand, I used to process CFDS regularly, but more efficient bots came around. —
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Deleting, merging, and renaming (i.e. moving) categories, as specified, with appropriate edit summaries.
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Please can you explain why you object to having a proper consensus-forming discussion on this, e.g. at
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Cyde has migrated Cydebot to Stretch, so it is no longer in danger of dying at the end of the month. —
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much easier (and less error-prone) to delete the un-needed redirects than to create them when omitted
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As an AWB bot, Fluxbot doesn't operate without operator intervention. It also isn't an adminbot. —
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abrupt change from always-on to always-off, we need some discussion on how best to handle them.
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unless it is migrated to Stretch. The code is the based on the code that Cydebot is running. —
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1496:. Indeed it was, and I meant to acknowledge that but didn't. (I'm a bit sleepy today). --
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this request is already 'active' - the task is not, as it hasn't even trialed, yet. —
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and so it'd be good for this to be trialed and approved soon as mentioned above).
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I do not think there is a "simple fix", but I think not creating redirects is a
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1689:. A discussion may produce a different result, but it does need a discussion.
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I would like to get this up and running before Cydebot stops functioning. —
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In the case of renaming, removing the CfD notice from the renamed category.
759:, I would be happy if a bot did just the first three items properly. --
303:, moving and deleting categories and re-categorizing pages as specified
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As far as I can tell the last edit Fluxbot made under task1 (cfds) was
1321:? In not, I'll just use the link directly from CFDW. Something like
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authorised this trial, so I am surprised to see proposed changes.--
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At a minimum, the new bot should process the main /Working page:
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Deleting the old category with an appropriate deletion summary.
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To request review of this BRFA, please start a new section at
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To request review of this BRFA, please start a new section at
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But this page is not the place to be having that discussion.
1233:(edits/action) OK, do a short trial for proof of concept. —
1685:, when the bot has been doing that for five years, it's a
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be mass-creating cat-redirects without human intervention.
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Knowledge (XXG):Bot requests#Categories for Discussion bot
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Ideally, it would also do some or all of the following:
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WT:Categories_for_discussion/Working#Cydebot_replacement
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Please can we just stick for now with what Cydebot was
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Now back to matching Cydebot's code for redirects. —
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Many thanks for running the trial. That looks good.
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1892:Approved Knowledge (XXG) bot requests for approval
247:Links to relevant discussions (where appropriate):
33:The following discussion is an archived debate.
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8:
1011:. Please can we make the switchover ASAP? --
1478:This is exactly what my remark was about.--
652:was a bit hasty in posting the request at
709:Process the /Large and /Retain subpages.
312:This task takes over work being done by
1750:WP:Bots/Requests for approval/Cydebot_4
780:WP:CFD 2019 February 16#North_Macedonia
250:WP:BOTREQ#Categories for Discussion bot
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7:
1697:fix misrepresents a complex reality.
266:Estimated number of pages affected:
193:07:23, Sunday, February 24, 2019 (
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214:Automatic, Supervised, or Manual:
45:The result of the discussion was
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577:who may be able to fill us in --
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736:20:48, 18 February 2019 (UTC),
865:Understood, and thank you. --
542:already approved for this task
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554:20:00, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
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470:07:23, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
1386:, with more people involved.
1298:WT:CFD/W#Cydebot replacement
450:Toolforge Trusty deprecation
299:and its subpages excluding
283:delete/move: no; edit: yes
207:and its subpages excluding
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1869:Please do not modify it.
36:Please do not modify it.
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656:when the discussion at
1135:If the information at
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1809:BAG assistance needed
1252:The trial was run on
1038:BAG assistance needed
883:BAG assistance needed
22:Requests for approval
1687:WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS
1117:requests will do. —
221:Programming language
18:Knowledge (XXG):Bots
843:. Sounds great. --
279:Exclusion compliant
1033:Let me reactivate
201:Function overview:
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1302:Black Falcon
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770:Black Falcon
761:Black Falcon
734:Black Falcon
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718:Category:Bar
714:Category:Foo
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568:in July 2017
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546:{{3x|p}}ery
357:user rights
333:actions log
230:Source code
191:Time filed:
1762:HairedGirl
1705:HairedGirl
1666:should not
1642:HairedGirl
1501:HairedGirl
1461:HairedGirl
1398:HairedGirl
1368:confusion.
1204:HairedGirl
1016:HairedGirl
848:HairedGirl
791:HairedGirl
671:HairedGirl
570:. Pinging
480:Od Mishehu
444:Discussion
420:ANI search
414:rights log
402:page moves
390:edit count
301:WP:CFD/W/M
232:available:
216:Automatic
209:WP:CFD/W/M
183:ANI search
177:rights log
165:page moves
153:edit count
113:rights log
103:page moves
1847:Approved.
1753:redirect.
1581:Ymblanter
1494:Ymblanter
1480:Ymblanter
1456:doing? --
1440:Ymblanter
1137:WP:CFD/AI
1087:pingó mió
1083:Galobtter
1059:Galobtter
1048:pingó mió
1044:Galobtter
1009:Ymblanter
995:Ymblanter
839:Thanks, @
768:Thanks, @
757:WP:BOTREQ
654:WP:BOTREQ
641:Thanks, @
624:DannyS712
579:DannyS712
477:עוד מישהו
428:Notices:
408:block log
362:(Task: 4)
341:block log
287:Adminbot:
268:Millions
254:permalink
171:block log
126:Operator:
108:block log
52:Approved.
1886:Category
1852:Primefac
1770:contribs
1733:approved
1713:contribs
1650:contribs
1509:contribs
1492:Sorry, @
1469:contribs
1454:actually
1406:contribs
1391:Xaosflux
1258:WP:CFD/W
1236:xaosflux
1212:contribs
1187:Xaosflux
1175:xaosflux
1141:WP:CFD/W
1131:Xaosflux
1120:xaosflux
1075:Xaosflux
1066:xaosflux
1024:contribs
963:Xaosflux
952:xaosflux
856:contribs
799:contribs
679:contribs
631:xaosflux
574:Xaosflux
378:contribs
349:flag log
326:contribs
297:WP:CFD/W
295:Process
205:WP:CFD/W
203:Process
141:contribs
83:contribs
20: |
1874:WT:BRFA
1627:WT:CFDW
1384:WT:CFDW
1266:deleted
991:Comment
622:, and
538:Fluxbot
315:Cydebot
262:Hourly
241:cfdw.py
225:Python
41:WT:BRFA
1816:JJMC89
1766:(talk)
1724:better
1709:(talk)
1646:(talk)
1598:JJMC89
1530:JJMC89
1505:(talk)
1465:(talk)
1418:JJMC89
1402:(talk)
1351:JJMC89
1328:JJMC89
1275:JJMC89
1208:(talk)
1194:JJMC89
1145:JJMC89
1112:JJMC89
1079:WP:CFD
1020:(talk)
970:JJMC89
944:JJMC89
921:JJMC89
890:JJMC89
852:(talk)
841:JJMC89
819:JJMC89
795:(talk)
675:(talk)
643:JJMC89
620:Pppery
616:JJMC89
593:JJMC89
562:Pppery
512:JJMC89
490:JJMC89
454:JJMC89
434:WT:CFD
236:cfd.py
130:JJMC89
1760:Brown
1703:Brown
1640:Brown
1499:Brown
1459:Brown
1396:Brown
1262:edits
1202:Brown
1183:(ec)
1014:Brown
917:Note:
846:Brown
789:Brown
669:Brown
430:WP:AN
307:Notes
274:Many
88:count
16:<
1856:talk
1637:} --
1525:Done
1484:talk
1444:talk
1361:and
1323:this
1270:logs
1139:and
999:talk
583:talk
550:talk
396:logs
372:talk
367:Cyde
320:BRFA
289:Yes
223:(s):
159:logs
135:talk
118:flag
98:logs
78:talk
68:BRFA
1768:• (
1711:• (
1694:not
1648:• (
1569:not
1507:• (
1467:• (
1404:• (
1256:of
1210:• (
1022:• (
854:• (
797:• (
732:--
716:to
677:• (
540:is
384:SUL
195:UTC
147:SUL
93:SUL
1888::
1858:)
1814:—
1812:}}
1806:{{
1757:--
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1326:—
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1035:{{
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968:—
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880:{{
817:—
786:--
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