Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 May 1

1041:"anarchists of the South-East Caribbean Islands" (as opposed to the north-west ones.) We've already got a category for anarchist movements by region, of which anarchist movements by country is a sub-category. This made sense, because anarchist movements have been known to be at times specific to a general location within, or transcending the boarders of, a nation-state. However, individuals are not bound to a location. They freely move around. The best way to categorize them becomes one of national background, as nations generally don't go away often (as much as anarchists would like, anyway). Further, these categorizations do not necessarily mean that they support nationalism. It's more a question of origin, and could easily refer instead to cultural background. Some hypothetical anarchist could go into exile and spend years moving around; however, because they are of origin – lets say, French – this particular anarchist is an anti-nationalist living in Mexico, or Germany, or Australia, and yet this person remains a culturally French anarchist of French origin.-- 1301:: I don't have strong personal feelings about the name of these categories -- I could live with the current name, or with one of the alternate names. I offered an alternate proposal in the spirit of making a slight accomodation to the feelings/wishes of anarchists. Though it's not entirely analagous, what I had in mind was the sort of accomodation that has been made in the categories for "Pro-life" activists -- which I feel is a self-serving term, while "anti-abortion" is simple, straight-forward and factually accurate. Nonetheless, this accomodation was made (I haven't looked, but I'm sure there was a lengthy and contentious discussion involved). So that's where I'm coming from. Again, I will go along with whatever concensus emerges here. 1562::Along national lines? Since when? Are you sure they aren't just aligning along cultural and common language networks? I know of dozens of international anarchist organizations. There is currently a list of anarchist movements by region, not nation, because a number of anarchist movements have impacted each other and crossed national lines, or stayed within regional lines, simply ignoring national identity altogether. The majority of these articles under that list are along national lines simply for ease of use. A smaller number focus on a location within a larger movement, where notable. In larger scope, "national" movements are in fact the same movement in a different location. Global anarchist project : --> 714:, I personally don't think any of those cateories would be appropriate, and the first two would not be right for the 2nd generation. If that is the case, it is all the more appropriate to have this category for them. I imagine the main category used to be the only one, & when the Pakistani subcat was set up the transfers were not done. I went through a good few & did find a couple of ones born in what is now Bangla-Deshi territory (formerly East Pakistan) who went with BD on the split; I removed these. I agree not all the articles mention the matter - some are very stubby. 1080:

would not want to be told that they were in a category called "anarchists by nationality". The suggestion of calling them all "Anarchists from planet Earth" is not helpful, since I'm not sure there are any from any other planets at the present time. I have no problem with saying that someone is an Italian anarchist as long as everyone understands that Italy refers to a location and not to a nation state, which is what would be clarified if the encompassing category was called "anarchists by location" instead of "anarchists by nationality".

482:: I initially thought these categories could simply be renamed, replacing the unfamiliar Arabic term with an English term such as "Islamic refugees". However, after reading up on the subject and looking at how these categories are being used, I concluded that we are better off just deleting them. The problem is that "muhajir" is a highly ambiguous term, encompassing both "refugee" and "emigrant". This makes it fundamentally unsuitable for use in the Knowledge category system. Even though these are part of the 2346:"Caucasian languages" sounds like a name of a language family, which it isn't. There are proposals and theories that unify Northeastern, Northwesterm and Southern (Kartvelian) families into one super-family, but there's no agreement among linguists that such a unification is scientifically correct. There is, however, rationale for categorizing the languages of the Caucasus, as this is an area with a unique linguistic situation, and it justifies inclusion in 3121:, or "Islamic judges" as less ambiguous, clearer for many users, plus sidestepping the spelling issue. The great majority of the articles seem to cover Qadis from countries like Iran and Pakistan where the sharia judges share or dominate the state judicial system, and most seem undercategorised in this respect. I think 529:- (d) the articles can contain a list of any notables associated with the events causing them to be refugees, and (e) for some peoples, nearly the entirety are refugees from something/somewhere: Israel, Palestine, and many immigrants to the US, we don't need thousands of categories of displaced people. 2525:

keep. The current consensus here is to use "pages", not "articles", so this CFD can be closed. I don't want to do a 357-category rename with no other input, however (you'd be very surprised as to what people think is "controversial" around here (or maybe you wouldn't be surprised, how long have you

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regional anarchist organizations and projects. They are, ultimately, in connection where language and cultural barriers permit, and are not in anyway competing, like the antagonistic international party-politics of liberals, communists, socialists, and conservatives. Conflict only arises in regards

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Could well be a WikiProject category, but surely if it was it would mention that somewhere in the category header, or have a WikiProject category as a parent category, neither of which it does. Even if it is, given that all the other categories are named with "24 (TV series)", this one should be too

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looks pretty good to me. (And if I'm not mistaken, the plural isn't formed by adding an "s" in any event! :) It's much better to use clear English terms when ever possible, rather than obscure terms of whatever derivation. This reminds me, there's another similar category that also needs renaming --

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Of course you have to decide how to categorize someone - is Craig Ferguson an American or is he Scottish? Or both? If anyone wants to create a meaningful category for anarchists from a city or part of a city they certainly can do so, but since anarchists do not believe in nationality, they certainly

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should address all relevant concerns. I don't see any reason that even the most devout anarchist would take issue with the notion of "country of birth"; at the same time, that term translates very easily to "nationality", so the category will fit very nicely in the super-cat structure of "people by

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It's not about an individual's self-identity, it's about what it is accurate to identify them as (per V, WEIGHT etc.). A category is useless (in fact, barred from being used) unless it is a defining characteristic of the topic. So if it were the case that few or no anarchists were defined by their

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Country is a less offensive word than nation. Location is far better though. These are people who recognize that there are lines on the map but like the lines on ones hand it is the whole hand and the entire land that is important, not the lines. Origin or birth are not important to include in the

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Although I fully agree with you on the sentiment of the matter, this is a larger question of how would a researcher look for categorized anarchists, and how would we be able to best specify categories. "Location" is very vague. Are we referring to anarchists by city? Bio-region? Will we get an

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By location is very specific. It does not specify how the location is chosen, and that really doesn't matter. Right now there are 183 American anarchists and about an equal number from all other locations specified combined, so if someone wants to split up the American category into a subcategory

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is not categorised as an ethnic group, rightly so. No doubt they are slightly different as a genetic group from the pre-partition populations, but that is not what it is about. They still have riots between Muhajirs and non-Muhajirs evey so often, and much of Pakistani politics is about the

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nationality, Knowledge would be actively misleading readers. To correct that is a precedent we should gladly set. So the issue here is to what extent nationality is an accurate and defining characteristics of anarchists. I would say to very little if any extent, apart from those brave few

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I don't know much about the Caucasus, but in Pakistan this is a huge thing, very easily defined, and not at all ethnic as Carlos suggests. We have loads of categories for Jews and others displaced by the Nazis some years earlier than these, so I'm not convinced by that argument.

2388:: If you're going to include Armenian and Azerbaijani, for example, renaming is appropriate as "Caucasian languages" implies only those languages within the traditional classifications "Caucasian", viz., Kartvelian, Northwest, Northeast, North-Central Caucasian genetic groups. ( 3852:

as a hidden category would be a far more reasonable name if that is the case. And if it is a WikiProject category it should also be named as such. The current name is a poor one for a permanent navigation category, which at the moment the name seems to indicate it is.

649:. Also, we need to decide on appropriate parent categories. This group consists of people who were originally refugees, along with their descendants. Does this category belong in any of the following category trees, none of which have sub-cats for Pakistan?: 1543:, should be a speedy. This is the system by which we categorize people (socialists, communists, liberals, conservatives, etc.), and anarchists are not different in any way. Interestingly, anarchists tend to organize themselves along national lines. -- 524:

categories for descendents of people displaced by all sorts of international convulsions is unwise; (a) they are hard to identify reliably; (b) must they be full-blood descent or may products of mixed parentage fit in; (c) how far back do we go -

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Alright, is there any chance the sub categories can be kept in some way? I'm open to opinion as to what the titles should be, but as I mentioned on the nominators talk page, merging 2 categories into one could break a few templates I've made.

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It was a joke; lighten up. (It's probably more embarrassing for others to see someone taking themselves too seriously and making assumptions about others' knowledge levels than to see someone enjoying themselves. I'd rather be in the latter.)

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they certainly could, and if they wanted to combine some of the many locations with less than 3 anarchists they certainly could do that as well. Following America the top 5 locations are all in Europe, followed by Russia and then Canada.

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A bot to place 357 tags would be useful; or a means of tagging the top category + all subs in 1 click; or a means of saying - 'look, these are really pages, not articles, changing all the names is hardly controversial so let's do it'.

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We have a series of heavily interlinked categories with only one or two articles. Since there have only been two spree shootings in New Zealand there is little immediate prospect for growth. Also it has been proposed that

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been around?)). Either way, please nominate the "articles" categories for renaming. Check the CFD bot-list for help with the tagging (my bot isn't designed for that, but I know at least one other is)

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We shouldn't care what these people believe they do or don't have vis-a-vis nationality. We have lots of categories describing people in NPOV terms rather than their own, otherwise we'd have categories

610:, an Anglo-Indian Pakistani, in Lahore before Partition. The category would then just have the two subcats, which seems ok to me, although as I say I don't know much about the Caucasian people. Note 3778:

at the very least. I've no idea what this should be renamed to, but the current name is clearly not of WP standard. This looks more like it should be a list on a WikiProject subpage than a category.

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title I suggested before. Any specifics as to what attention is needed should be fairly obvious from the articles, and if not, a comment on the article's should be enough to clarify things.

3946:? I'm not overly sure. However, if the categories are changed, please let me know. I'm not overly fussed, I just wasn't aware of the category naming conventions. Just don't delete them. :) 2056:

most if not all listed here now are Soviet era directors and not all are Russian. rename then check to see that none are post-Soviet era Russian (I m willing to do this), which belong to

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definition. For example, someone who moves to Italy at age 20 and spends all their life there would probably be identified with Italy regardless of where they were born or raised.

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idea and think it fits well with the articles currently in the category. I agree that when possible, English-equivalent terms should be used for these Arabic terms.

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I'm not so sure about this. Qadi is Arabic for judge, and used for secular judges in most of the Arab world, plus Turkey & other places, it seems. I'd prefer

661:. And lastly, based on a small random sample, there seems to be a bit of a problem in terms of lack of confirmatory material in at least some of the articles (eg. 3895:

I left a note at the 24 project (clock counting down at 20 hours to go) as I'm not sure how "official" this tag is. I expect they're busy shooting at each other.

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defined by their nationality, whether they like it or not. It's also part of an overall classification scheme of people by nationality and political orientation.

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Someone who finds anything remotely amusing about the title of that category is exactly the kind of person who should recuse themselves from this discussion and

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Muhajirs in Pakistan, and they constitute a distinct ethnic group; there are tensions with the majority ethnicities and a category is highly encyclopaedic. --

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category, when the Pakistan sub-cat was available. There does appear to be a valid rationale for this particular category -- although, I think it needs

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as it does not detract from Knowledge's taxonomy nor does it deceive the reader as to the "nationality of anarchists". Suggest changing wording to

4990: 3921:, which similarly needs renaming at least, and which I hyave also tagged. Perhaps the best solution might be to merge the two into one, using the 3569: 1335: 101: 21: 4098: 4038: 3733: 3614: 2736: 4086: 3943: 3763: 3719: 3922: 3849: 885:. No anarchist has a "nationality". Anarchists inherently do not believe in government, and tend to consider themselves citizens of the world. 4183: 4117: 4053: 4001: 3958: 2571: 2566: 4102: 3601: 3574: 2751: 2746: 2676: 665:, which also needs to be renamed). Somebody really needs to go through all of them to check on that, and remove any that can't be verified. 4668: 3592: 3583: 3306: 3286: 2756: 1371: 1339: 1172: 1081: 1003: 919: 886: 5001:. Would be a speedy except that it has two speedy issues: expanding the abbreviation and placing in stand form for categories of the form 4857:. Would be a speedy except that it has two speedy issues: expanding the abbreviation and placing in stand form for categories of the form 3565: 1061:

I support an alternate name change to "country of origin" or such, per alternate proposals below. I still don't like "location" though.--

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feels they are a citizen of the earth. The alternate proposals could work, but for the sake of consistency I don't think it's worth it. (

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is better, but unless we get a bot to change all of the current categories, I think it would be better for all of them to be the same.

1108: 3446: 2338: 858: 4094: 3918: 3729: 2681: 2586: 2920: 2731: 2616: 1531: 231: 2439: 2576: 2202: 1205: 870: 4764:- The use of an adjective as a noun is acceptable English usage. The addition just makes the category name unnecessarily long. 4569:- The use of an adjective as a noun is acceptable English usage. The addition just makes the category name unnecessarily long. 4468: 4386:- The use of an adjective as a noun is acceptable English usage. The addition just makes the category name unnecessarily long. 4171:

Can we close this then? However, I'm unsure how to make the sub categories part of the parent category, if you know what I mean.

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Category renames have bots to do the work. So the amount of work needed is never an issue in making the right consensus choice.

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I could certainly live with that name (Steve, BTW, is the originator of the first-nominated category and coordinator of WP24).

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as nom. While this is a significant award, the precedent is to listify. Since the list exists, the category is not needed.

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as creator. I thought I was being useful, but I was overzealous. I'm glad that you're keeping an eye out for Knowledge. —

1266: 4285: 4281: 3138:- I'm fundamentally in agreement with Johnbod on this. Few readers will have any idea what either Qazi or Qadi means -- 2706: 2656: 1524: 136: 2458: 1870: 445: 412: 3079:. (As a transliteration, the word may also be spelled "Qazi", thus not a spelling "error" fix that can be speedied.) 1919:

category which is overcategorization of performer by performance. The two film articles should be linked by either a

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Hmm, expert attention, no. A similar title, yes, but not expert attention. How about something along the lines of

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does a perfect job as a navigational hub for this award. The category is unnecessary overcategorization by award.

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scheme. After merging of any articles, simply speedily delete as empty any category that goes unused for 4+ days.

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If necessary, change the surrounding categories to remove 'people', which is unnecessary in the English language

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Yes, thats correct, most of the "experts" are either in the project or closely work with the project. How about,

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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group constitutes an ethnic group in their own right and convention on wikip (as seen in the recent renaming of

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If necessary, change the surrounding categories to remove 'people' which is unnecessary in the English language

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Cat:Muhajir with the contents of Cat:Muhajir (Pakistan). It really useful cat. It's important so be replaced.

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What, one comment from an IP in 2006, and a reply giving the Keepers argument here? The splendidly entitled

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would be fine, too. I will go along with the concensus as to which of these alternate terms is preferred.

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Appears to be a project tag, so should go on talk page, no? All are in the main 24 characters category.

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Thanks for weighing in, Carlos. Please read my comment above: the issue is not self-identification.

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specifically refers to them as "pages" (not articles) and identifies them as non-articles. Further

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I'll be interested to see what the project has to say, but given the unusual circumstances of the

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Yes, but I believe anarchists, like any other activists or people involved in political matters,

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to critiques of praxis and philosophical position – never due to national alligence (i.e. "My

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If it was a project cat on the talk page, I see no harm in the more specific name. Rename to

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per others above. Nom seems unwise in attempting to tell anarchists what they all believe.

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per nom so they all match. Agree that 'page' is better but have no wish to tag 357 pages.

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should probably be renamed to be about the incident not the person as per policy, also).

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Category was tagged - tag was removed by the category's creator. It has been restored.

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different populations. It is defining for a Pakistani, even from a younger generation.

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Strange that all of those Pakistanis were placed (or left, as the case may be) in the

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grounds. Additionally, "by location" is far too vague to be encyclopedically useful.

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and consider renaming the other categories to remove the word 'people' from them.

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given the high profile projects that are using that per GregManninLB's comment. --

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last proposal. English terms are usually more stisfacotry than foreign ones.

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Category:Disambiguation-Class Psychedelics, dissociatives and deliriants pages

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etc.) has become to add "people" to the name of ethnic or racial groups (see

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seems choc-a-block with organizations following conventional national lines.

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