Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 October 2

3560:- I'm pretty sure there is sufficient RS coverage of the topic of playable female heroes to justify a full article as erachima suggested above, but that's an argument to create an article, not an argument to delete a category. It sounds like the basis of the nomination is that the category will be over-crowded because all but a handful of games feature female protagonists, but as Masem points out, "protagonist" in this context usually means a playable character. I think there is value to a category of games like Metroid, Tomb Raider, Super Princess Peach, Ms. Pacman, Barbie, etc. etc. that have all been covered by the RSes specifically on the topic of their varying approaches to the inclusion of a playable female main character. I think it might help to more clearly define the category - perhaps by changing the word "protagonist" to "playable main character" or "playable hero character" or something that would more clearly indicate that we're talking about games centrally starring playble female characters, and not just any game that includes a female. - 2280:. There are sources to assert that some gender gap could exist in the video games. Therefore, a category "Video games featuring female protagonists" has been created. And now, we have the problem of how to categorize "drama board wikipedia" with respect to this criterion. It seems that including "drama board wikipedia" into the "with female protagonists" category hurts heavily the feelings of some characters who are featuring here. May be this could be alleviated by the creation of another category, something like "Video games featuring few female protagonists" that, indeed, would be more adapted to "drama board wikipedia". 2394:. The discussion below and above is convincing. However, I have an additional argument. The purpose of category is not proving or disproving anything, but merely a convenience of navigation. If at least a few people who do a lot of work in the area (as for example, Niemti does) find a category very useful for their work, such cats should be kept even only for their convenience. But chances are, if this is something convenient for them, this will be also convenient for others who actually work in the subject area. 297:

individuals will be lost in a huge generic participants category. There has also been a proliferation of people over the last decade whose only claim to fame is their participation in a particular reality show, so the same thinking that went into deleting PERF categories for actual performers may not apply. A single category out of a relatively large structure is not the proper way to examine the larger questions, so keep this one and open up a larger general discussion at an appropriate venue.

1479:@Codename Lisa: From you comment about the gender of words in French, I gather that you thought I was applying the property of "female" to video games? This is not what I meant; the defining property for the set of articles I was talking about was "game that has a female protagonist" (the female character being what all games have in common), not "game that is female". If you didn't think that, I don't understand what you mean by "seeing a video game that is gender-free as such is a bias". 3242:

they lead with "Game X, which is unique b/c it has a female protagonist, was released this year" etc? There are also plenty of articles about games which do/don't have minority protagonists, but I don't think we want to have Games with African-American protagonists or Games with Jewish protagonists either - so listfying might be our best bet esp if you want to preserve the work already done - and you can add additional context/references/etc to a list that you can't do with a category.--

2100:, but it's woefully inadequate to provide an adequate coverage of the variety and volume of female characters throughout the whole history of video games. Before a more complete collection of history articles can be written for the various existing periods and genres, we need a way to gather information and references about the characters that would belong in it; but that won't happen if such lists are deleted every time someone tries to compile and classify them. As Knowledge is a 2758:, it's just categorization, not influencing the article's notability in any way whatsoever. As for the notability of the subject (female protagonists) - lots of media are discussing it, probably more than any non-genre, non-platfform, non-release game-categorization category subject on Knowledge. Here are all the categories under the parent category (hundreds of them, often with sub-categories of sub-categories, sometimes many levels deep): 3617:

RSes that discuss the uncommon and progressive use of a female protagonist in Pokémon? Either way, the inclusion of one game or another isn't the point here. It doesn't really matter if Ms. Pac-Man or Pokémon are included or not. We're discussing whether the category is justifiable at all. We can delve into the requisite degree of female protagonism and tweak it however we need at any time and adjust category membership later. -

1949:- And what Codename Lisa is completely false, actually female protagonists are RARE. Mind you, there are many thousands of game articles on Knowledge, and this category is pretty much complete now - there's hardly any more. What's also important, it's a pretty big issue right now, with a lot of feminists and journalists complaining about it in the media. (See the subsection below for the proof regarding what I wrote.) -- 3302:, or just some playable characters in fighting games). As the name of the category itself says, it's just the protagonists and nothing else, and the games are all included only that way (at least in the games that I added, which is about 90% of the list I think). Go and start checking these articles and you'll see (many of these games are unknown/forgotten, but they exist, and they have articles here on Knowledge). -- 287:- As I understand it, the reasoning behind eliminating PERF categories was two-fold. First, a prolific actor can star in many different TV series and films over the course of a career and if they were all categorized it would create clutter on their articles, lessening the overall utility of the category system. Second, while starring in a show is likely defining for the stars, not every 1439:

might not be a problem with languages like French that allocate grammatical gender but in English, they are gender-agnostic.) From a neutral point of view, seeing a video game that is gender-free as such is a bias. Absence or presence of female protagonist only gains due significance when there is a matter of gender-sensitivity, not technicality. Best regards,

1381:, and it's not true that "almost all video games have female protagonists" - there are zillions of racing and abstract games without characters at all. But it's true that a stricter inclusion criterion will make it even more useful, providing game-related information beyond merely the too common "this has a female protagonist", thus my suggested split. 2333:. This is clearly a topic of interest, as evidenced by the list of media articles given by Niemti below. It is arguably a more notable characteristic than which year the video game was released in, which no one would challenge is appropriate for a category. It might benefit from being renamed or having more clear criteria for inclusion though. 2351:

be some concern about defining which characters are featured, and which are merely background or incidental, but I'll leave that detail to others. It might be nice to live in a society where this distinction would be considered trivial, but we don't and our task is to describing the world we live in, not the world we wish to live in. --

314:- I think there are enough participants from this franchise to provide for having their own category. And as this is a very popular franchise, along with the other franchises listed in the Participants in American reality television series category, I don't see any reason as to why this one this doesn't fit. 2635:

And no, I don't agree with the panic articles claiming it somehow a huge problem or something. Maybe in the way of "first world problems", and anyone who can play only as a person/creature of their own gender is pretty sexist themselves in my opinion. But, the point is these games are rare (and also

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I am not a video game player (which leads to the possibility that I am misinformed) yet even I know that featured female protagonists are rare. Is it possible some are missing the word featured, and think the category is game with any females included? That wouldn't be much of a category. There might

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in the Guinness World Records book. I generally don't know much about the relative release dates of classic video games, as they arrived randomly to my country; a systematic list thus helps me to find out particular details better than article prose, which by its nature will be limited to report some

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I haven't seen Man of Steel, but assuming what you say is true, it should be categorized Films set in Canada. Not too long ago I added Set in categories to several James Bond movie pages. There's an editor who does great work on these articles, but it slipped past him that there were small scenes in

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So I suggest that the best solution will probably be to merge the two categories as proposed, but create a new category for the essays on on editor conduct and attitude. I can think of various titles which might work, but I think that the best route would be to seek some consistency, and follow the

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To be fair, it's uncommon to find a good RS article on the history of female video game protagonists that fails to mention Ms. Pac-Man (along with the fact that she's not Miss or Mrs. Pac-Man). This kind of highlights the fact that female protagonists have historically been very rare. Are there any

3597:

I think it should be left as "protagonist", but I'd add that if Ms. Pacman counts as a protagonist, then that's a pretty broad definition. I don't think it could even get any broader. She's less of a protagonist than the ability to choose your gender in Pokemon since at least Pokemon has a story. I

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Codename Lisa: I know next to nothing about Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3, which I didn't see in any list, and I didn't add (and no one did). If you think it has a female protagonist, or any else category it's not in currently, you can add cat-improve it yourself. Also, you still failed to provide

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I tried adding this to a game that allows people to play female characters, and was reverted on the grounds that "it is a plotless fighting game, there are no protaganists". Thus, I do not buy the claim that we can compare the size of this category to the total number of video game articles we have

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I understand then that you find "female PCs that had received coverage in reliable sources as historically significant to the medium" an acceptable criterion, to compile female characters in a way that provides an encyclopedic result. Would you find reasonable a list article that describes in prose

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Then the Catwoman campaign should be listed, not the whole game. I'll try to fix that by including a redirect in the category. Having "Batman: Arkham City" listed as a game with a female protagonist didn't help me find out about this campaign; as the Plot section didn't depict her as a protagonist.

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from every episode of Star Trek is defined as a "Star Trek actor" but would be categorized as such anyway, leading to unwieldly and less useful categories. The bulk of participants in reality shows traditionally were not already celebrities before joining the cast. Their appearance is what got them

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Also, what constitutes "minority" is pretty absurd in this case - white people are a "minority" in Japan, and the Japanese are a minority in France. And I can't even think about just any "Games with Jewish protagonists" or "Games with African-American protagonists" at all - almost all games set on

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game categories in Knowledge. Categories are based simply on observation by eitors (to quote myself: "games set in 1997" or "games about drugs" or "games with 2.5D graphics" or whatever else in so many categories - not a SINGLE category anywhere is based on any "RS that make lists of games", every

2673:. And it should be in some kind of "video games by" (there are so many of these cats), but I neither created or categorized the category - I just used it, a lot (I sepnt so many hours filling up this category). Oh, and I guess this experience of yours has already invalidated your original concern ( 296:

and since there weren't going to be articles on every single reality television participant there weren't necessarily going to be the sort of occupational categories to suit them the way that general performer categories like those for actors or singers. Not having show-level categories means that

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the aircraft are known as Ansaldo foo and never by the full company name (which is only used in wikipedia because Ansaldo is a dab page). It is unlikely that the shipbuilding/engineering company ever used Gio. Ansaldo & C. either for is everday use, should it acutally be Giovani Ansaldo &

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If there are RS that make lists of games that have female protagonists and calculate how many games have female protagonists, etc, then perhaps listifying would be reasonable. But I'm not sure if such thing is defining - in other words, when someone describes one of the games in this category, do

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Essentially, there is no reason for me to sweat it. While people like you come here and vote "Keep" with a very narrow definition of the word "protagonist", the category is growing in size by the hour, defying said definitions. So, I just unwatch this page and mark this category on my calendar to

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Hi, Diego. This assessment has a minor problem: It contradicts with your original stance of "racing and abstract games" not feature female protagonists. You see, if one change the context from games to protagonist, those racing and abstract games stay out because the metonymy fails on them. (This

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Yes, if one looks at category contents you see that these are alpine ski resorts/hills that (may) offer some snow tubing along with other winter sliding activities. It's not defining enough for this category. If indeed there are resorts or parks that are specifically for snow tubing then for now

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The category should list those games where having a female main role has been noted as such, not games where an ensemble of undifferentiated characters contains one female, as that wouldn't count as a "female protagonist" as identified by RS - except for ensembles of characters where the females

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shows that this is a notable topic, and sorting games by this criterium is a matter of academic and public interest. According to that article, "in a sample of 669 action, shooter, and role-playing games selected by EEDAR in 2012, only 24 (4%) had an exclusively female protagonist, and 300 (45%)

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Actually it is a defining characteristsic, exactly as much as "games set in 1997" or "games about drugs" or "games with 2.5D graphics" or whatever else in so many categories. Or actually it's 'definining' much more: because we don't have a (or any) discussions in the media saying "we have so few

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I think just "with non-playable protagonists" (as in: gender neutral) would make a better category in that case, if you believe it's useful (I have no opinion). Also I like I said below, a spearate category protagonists with customizable gender would make a better split, because it's potentially

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I don't see any/much difference in meaning between "essays giving advice" and "guidance essays" (if there is a significant difference perhaps someone could explain it on the category pages and link them to each other then I'd happily withdraw this CFD). The reason I've suggested merging in this

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Religion is not important in the careers of sportspeople. Categories like this that create an intersection of sportspeople and religion are specifically discoraged by the ERGS guidelines. In December there was a heavily participated in discussion that overwhelmingly decided to delete the similar

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Its not "spamming', its informing you were misinformed (not least, by the nominator). And yes, it was deleted. (But it was a crap article.) Also AFAIR another similar article turned into a category was the list of sidekick characters or soemthing like that (also a crap article). Oh, and this

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characteristic (similar to the various "contestants" and "participants" in other reality TV series). If that impression is valid, this category may deserve to exist. On the other hand, if my impression is incorrect and this show isn't a reality TV show, then this category shouldn't exist and

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Niemti fails to understand the purpose of categories or the process of how WP decides whether they are kept or not. Niemti claims on my talk page that notability has nothing to do with categorizetion, ergo the mere (i.e., trivial) intersection of two concepts, even if the notability of the

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see the Mass Effect series are included. And they do have a bit more gender-specific plots, but where do we draw the line? Pokemon changes all the pronouns to match your gender. Is that not sufficient? Is that any less sufficient than putting a bow on Pacman, a game devoid of any plot? --

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If the cat is solely for the use of editors, as opposed to readers, I would agree. It isn't. That editors find it useful is a plus, but as a non-hidden cat, its primary purpose is navigation. If I had any interest in video games, I could imagine being interested in which ones had female

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And seriously, if you won't take it back (not rephrase, but say: "I misinformed you, my rationale was completely untrue"), I'll take it to ANI. I've spent too many hours (a two-digit number) compiling this list for someone to delete it based on such a brazenly false statement.

4437:, based on 1 scene in 1 episode. The Kansas argument would probably work if we had an article on the episode, "The Green, Green Glow of Home" and "Tempus Fugitive", but it does not work for the TV show as a whole. The TV show is clearly belonging in our non-exitent category 2373:, and realized the net is slightly narrower than i had envisioned. Multiple protagonists can exist, but it is not the case that all the major character are protagonists. However, that strengthens my support (although shifts the emphasis from "featured" to "protagonists").-- 3578:

In extremely few cases (but they do exist), the protagonist is actually not a playable character. In more cases, the protagonist is also not a "hero" (but antihero or villain, there's quite a lot of games like that, especially crime games). "Protagonist" is what it is - a

3007:

Hi. Your paraphrasing, I am afraid, is quite the opposite of what I intended. CoD:MW3 has two female character: A non-playable Alena Vorshevsky, a VIP, and an A-10 pilot. That said I mentioned this game because it at the other end of the definition spectrum: If we go with

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Most singers perform many times throughout their lives, and may be notable for many such performances. The shared defining characteristic of reality TV contestants is that their performance is in most cases a one-off event which propels them from obscurity to notability.

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for African-Americans and barely anything else (except film tie-in adaptations like with the Blade games) and practically nothing with Jewish protagonists (I guess the game industry hates Jews so much more than the feminists claim it hates women, if the latter's true).

2428:

No it isn't. If the category is meant to help editors it's either hidden or --more appropriately for this case-- on the talkpage. What MVBW is suggesting is that this function as some sort of "Women In Gaming taskforce" tag, and that's an abuse of mainspace categories.

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Your apparent decision to personally spam every single voter in this discussion telling them that they're using "protagonist" wrong is not actually doing your side of the argument any favors. And, no, such an article would never be deleted in favor of a category.

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Obviously. I'm as dubious as Peterkingiron about notability on the main article, too, incidentally, but having nominated the previous deleted article I decided to give the author some space to develop it and let others judge it, to avoid any appearance of bias.

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applies to articles, not structural units of Knowledge, there is nothing POV about an auto-generated list of articles. And, as I already explained, my nomination applies to article in Knowledge, not the collective set of video games in existence. Best regards,

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Hi. That was just an example that served a purpose. If you nitpick on examples, we can't possibly have a constructive discussion, regardless of how hard we try. As for the source, you yourself answered it below in response to Obiwankenobi. Best regards,

3142:. Niemti and I both worked on Final Fantasy VII articles. We both know how (un)true his statements in the last thread are. I have already elaborated why "I respectfully disagree"; if you are seeking witty impoliteness, I am afraid I must disappoint you. 2479:(or a list article for the topic). While I'm sympathetic to the notion that having a female protagonist may not seem to be a defining characteristic, diffusing the category or refining the inclusion criteria should bring this in line with 2044:

would only be mentioning those video games whose use of female PCs had received coverage in reliable sources as historically significant to the medium, and it would be doing that in prose. A category can never accomplish the same thing.

1929:

I am withdrawing this on the basis that I was apparently misinformed. I have not researched the subject. Nevertheless, I am dubious as to the merits of female categories, which being a woman is not crucial to performacne of the role.

2874:

Then remind me what was your point, again? The statement "video games lack female characters" was not used in an article either, and thus content policies don't apply. You have to apply the same standards to both sides of this debate.

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The definition of this concept is not tight enough to really be useful. Video games so often have multiple protagonists that the fact that a game with 20 possible protagonists has 1 that fits this definition is not workable. What next

4305:. Before nominating this category, you emptied it of the one category that was in it. I will also state that Films set in a city category aren't uncommon. Newark isn't a small city but how many films have been set there I don't know. 3482:

playable character(s), not just any (and in very few cases, the non-playable character who is the real subject of the story). For example (the example which I used already), Sheva is optionally playable in RE5, but she's only Chris'

201:) that this is a reality TV show and that at least some of the "cast" are not actors playing a role, but rather are "real people" who are notable for their involvement in this show -- and for whom being in this show's "cast" is a 2623:

The current list (about 850 titles with articles on Knowledge - out many thousands game articles) is pretty much definitive and there's not much more. I used the lists compiled by others as well as my own knowledge. Also this:

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and is unacceptable in Knowledge. Next, our context here is Knowledge articles about video games, not all video games or video games released within a certain time period... and certainly not what is seen as "lame excuses".

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Hi. Almost all video games have female protagonists. In fact, the only video game without a female protagonist that I know of is Company of Heroes. We need a category called "Video games not featuring a female protagonist".

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page. Ideally I would have liked to start it in a sandbox and work on it there, but I forgot how to create a new sandbox and sometimes all these mistakes contributes to problems. But please do delete the misplaced category

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category has dozens of categories, by genre, by theme, etc for video games, so this one isn't exactly that far out after all, and if we throw the book at that one and apply the same standards, it would be a pretty brutal

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misleading (neither I nor no one else didn't notice it before) for readers to say it's just "female protagonists" when you can choose the gender - quite a lot of Western RPGs have this option, and some other games too. --

4433:, because there are 2 episodes (out of about 80) that are primarily set in Kansas, plus a few more that are set in Kansas partly. The pilot episode has 3 significant scenes in Kansas for example. We would also put it in 2675:

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Newark, early on, apparently. As NJ's largest city, I'm inclined to think that this is a reasonable part of an accepted, overall scheme, and should not be deleted, but for now, at least, I'm neutral on the issue.

2082:, which would naturally suggest a list-like organization, but that would likely have SYNTH issues in practice. The bottom line is that this is absolutely the place for an article, not a category and not a list. -- 3456:

Generally for video games, when the word "protagonist" is used, it refers specifically to a playable character. In this manner, the number of games with female protagonists is rather small (though increasing).

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This shows that the category has some problems, but those can be fixed; overall, it allows navigating the topic to find female protagonists - so it serves its main purpose. (For example, I've learned today that

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2525:- Given that there exists significant debate and discussion about the cultural influence of video games and the impact of the medium's relative lack of female protagonists, this is a highly-useful category. 2040:. It would be about the topic as a whole, not a list, and it would only bring in select illustrative examples of individual games as they were relevant to discussing the topic as a whole. In other words, 4401:

World War Z is probably an example of another key question. If a film is set in lots and lots of places, is it really set in any? I have to wonder if the setting of a film is defining to it past maybe 3

5192:-- My sincerest apologies. I'm so trying to fit into adhering to Knowledge's standards with my edits and so on that I look at other pages and try to make sure that it reflects that. I just read through 2795:? Without these sources actually listing the video games they checked, and us seeing what they regard "game without female protagonist", the statement "many games lack female protagonist" constitutes a 1497:

Not quite, I think their point there was that many Romantic languages (French, Spanish, whatever) assign gender to abstract objects. I don't see how that has anything to do with a protagonist, though.

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which is about all kind of female characters with separate Knowledge articles, not just protagonists). And it's not about "heroes", protagonists can be antiheroes or villains (evil), like everyone in

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It was "in a mainstream videogame", maybe by "mainstream" they meant the first smash hit in the West. (Cauldron was also a hit, but it was a "computer game" when "video games" were console titles.) --

1402:. These articles are not about females, but about games, which in English understanding lack gender, and so the contents are not female. It makes no sense for it to be a sub-set of fictional females. 4416:

2012 the movie was set in many locations. China, California, Las Vegas, Paris, Wyoming, Japan, Washington D.C., India, Canada, Nepal and London. If it has a scene set in so and so, it was set there.

4080: 3020:'s comment below helps better understand my comment. That said, I don't think a mere difference in opinion of the definition warrants you personally attacking yourself on my behalf. Best regards, 198: 4590:

contains 31 subcategories, and there is no indication that this is an overly specific level of categorization. This category is underdeveloped, but it is still relatively new (4 months old).

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It's not ridiculous to categorize movies based on where they're supposedly taking place, even when a movie has several such locations. And yes, there is an Israel scene. It's Newark : -->

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Yeah, I would agree too that games like Balder's Gate, where you gain a party of mixed genders and species which you control, that doesn't make the game one with a female protagonist. --

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intersection is unestablished (because in Niemti's view it's irrelevant), is a basis to keep a category. Niemti is just plain wrong, but does provide an object lesson why we don't have

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in subcategories would be useful, but that doesn't require deleting the main category; and sub-categorizing by genre would be better than by the player-NPC axis. Thanks for the link!

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By your logic, it is also non-neutral the statement "Almost all video games have female protagonists", which is the basis for the nomination. (Have you suggested there that we apply

167: 42: 37: 4059:. While it is recommended that categories follow the article name, it is not required. There is no ambiguity as "Ansaldo" has only one meaning when it comes to aircraft. Also per 3859: 3818: 3642:, primarily due to the reasoning expressed by Sphilbrick, NorthBySouthBaranof and My very best wishes. I also concur that the rationale given for deletion is wildly incorrect. — 228:

But where did we ever decided to allow casts of show categories. If they are not perforer by performance categories, which go against overcategorization guidelines, than what is?

569:"do not create categories that are a cross-section of a topic with an ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation, unless these characteristics are relevant to the topic" 3530:

can be female, but later it's a dude. Btw, if we can have another category for protagonists with a customizable gender if it's a problem (like being potentially misleading). --

4947:(by which is generally meant a resort for skiing and other wintersports such as toboganning, snowboarding and snow tubing) is (or has ever been) used for snow tubing is not a 2603: 4956: 3260:

This is the right approach - not the percentage of protagonists but the defining part. There are games that are in the mind of all as being defined by their main characters (

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I tried adding this to a game that allows people to play female characters, and was reverted on the grounds that "it is a plotless fighting game, there are no protaganists".

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because the current name is not clear enough. Categories need an easy way to say yes or no the article fits, and the curren name is too complex and obscure to give us that.

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Uh, I see the part where he said that, and I see you badgering him about it, but I didn't see him actually agreeing with you. And he hasn't changed his !vote yet either...

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The Man With the Golden Gun and Casino Royale(2006 version) that were set in Beirut Lebanon(plus China and Macau) and Prague respectively. Omissions are innocent mistakes.

1258: 170:. This is not a performer by performance category; it is a category of real people rather than performers. They will will rarely if ever perform in this way again. -- 2614: 2655:

and tell anything. The fact that it is in parent categories for articles on characters, not articles on games, gives me the idea this is not a well thought out plan.

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Not so sure of that. I haven't seen the film but I understand that there is a particularly memorable sequence in Israel, for one; it received prominent mentions.

4426: 2505:. I could see a category directed to female leading character, but protagonists means leading character or one of the major characters (yes, I had to look it up), 4714:

per nom and the longstanding precedent over alumni of merged or renamed colleges, by which we treat alumni of the predecessor as having attended the successor.

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but I also think there is wisdom in limiting these categories to films "set" (i.e., placed and remaining) in some place, not many places or hundreds of places.

2606:("Maybe you haven't noticed that there's a severe deficit of female playable characters in video games." - I guess people here really haven't noticed, somehow.) 987:

are the only obvious members; everything else is only tangentially associated with pieing at best. For instance, it's far from the main thing associated with a

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consists overwhelmingly of advice on editor conduct and attitude. 50 of the 101 essay titles begin with "do not" or "don't". Many others have similar themes:

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where choosing the gender of Commander Shepard affects the games' content), that are covered in the media over and over by their strong female protagonists.

1966:- Regardless of what percentage of games have female protagonists, this is trivia -- not a defining characteristic suitable for an encyclopedia category. -- 211: 4368:, when significant amounts of the film occur in Canada. I am not sure we have ever figured out an easy way to tell when films qualify for such categories. 3138:

Hello, Ansh. Did you say "conductive to discussion"? Which discussion? All I am seeing here are personal attacks, threats, allegations of strawman and

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direction is that there's a template that adds the "guidance" category to pages (both categories were created in early 2010 and contain 100+ essays).

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This doesn't make sense. The target category already exists, and the two categories are comprised of entirely different sets of sub-categories, etc.

1361: 842: 2678:), so you can overturn your vote. Oh and female characters are protagonists in some fighting games but only when they're actually protagonists (in 1457:

Extremely few non-karting racing games feature only female protagonists, but they do exist. One example of a singular protagonist who is female is

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It's not "broad", it's actually very narrow (see my other comments, how it's not about random playable characters or sidekicks or whatever, only

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understand now. Thanks again, you may delete. In future how does one go about deleting mistakes such as thing in future? I've been working on

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/11/here-are-the-lame-excuses-game-developers-give-for-not-using-female-characters/

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so I can see what Codename Lisa is getting at in the nomination. Diego's and Gobōnobō's keep reasonings are solid and I agree with them. --

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Hello, guys. What I see in this section is chiefly caused by three elements: (a) disagreement over definition, (b) lack of due regard for

3063:, p.117) - initially, Aeris "was supposed to be the sole female lead, and villain Sephiroth was supposed to be her first love, not Zack," 17: 2631:("In a survey by The Guardian, out of 669 current game titles in which the gender of the protagonist was obvious, only 24 were women.") 4674: 3180:

renominate in one year, when the issue of redundancy is so manifest that no one bothers to mention pro-feminism ideals. Best regards,

1465:. And yes, there are also games with only male protagonists. And I just realized I forgot to add the driving games to the category. -- 1095:

being appropriate members. Categorizing everyone who threw a pie and every film in which a pie was thrown is not. So either rename to

197:- I've never paid any attention to this show, but I have the impression (for example, from the fact that this category is included in 5150:, as discussed on the article talk page. The notion that we're now going to create a category for this chap is laughable. Delete per 4799: 2762:

And I think mass media outlets are not discussing "why we have so few beekeeping footballers, what we can do to get more of them"? --

115:

This looks to be a performer by performace category. We do not categorize people by what specific TV shows they were cast members of.

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was not the first human female protagonist in a video game; I couldn't have done that without the category or an equivalent list).

521:. The religion of these people may be notable, but there are much better categories for them to be put in by religion, for example 4251: 3526:

In BG the protagonist is the player's starting character and can be female (I myself played as a sorceress). In early Ultimas the

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http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-womens-blog-with-jane-martinson/2013/jun/12/games-industry-problem-female-protagonists

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And it was still a really stupid and nonsensical strawman argument, and continuous refusal to read the definition of the term "

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The games are not the subset; the protagonists are. The category is identifying a common property of all the items included.

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Oh, and about your idea of split with "non-playable female protagonists" - the only such game I can think about right now is

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One of many messes left over from the past forking of the China articles. The main provinces article has now been renamed.

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Protagonists are not equivalent to simply "playable characters", whoever told you such a thing was wrong. You can play as

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That can be fixed by using a tighter definition based on reliable sources, see discussion in the comments section below.

5173:-- The main article may perhaps be about a notable person, though I am dubious. However, he does not need a category. 4365: 4361: 2308:

per Thibbs waaaay below. I think it's a reasonable category to have, and the nomination rationale is pretty ridiculous.

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Let me rephrase you: "it was just another absurd statement from me, as Modern Warfare 3 has no female protagonists and

5250: 5231: 5214: 5182: 5163: 5159: 5094: 5027: 5023: 5005: 5001: 4987: 4968: 4790: 4723: 4704: 4666: 4599: 4578: 4561: 4536: 4499: 4495: 4479: 4450: 4441:, since over 95% of the TV show happens there. 1 scene in a TV show or film is not enough to make something set there. 4420: 4411: 4390: 4377: 4344: 4340: 4313: 4297: 4225: 4155: 4134: 4116: 4102: 4049: 4006: 3935: 3907: 3893: 3863: 3822: 3743: 3713: 3692: 3677: 3660: 3626: 3607: 3592: 3569: 3539: 3521: 3504: 3469: 3444: 3422: 3396: 3332: 3311: 3289: 3251: 3231: 3189: 3129: 3105: 3087: 3029: 2998: 2976: 2957: 2928: 2906: 2884: 2865: 2842: 2820: 2771: 2749: 2713: 2699: 2664: 2645: 2559: 2534: 2517: 2493: 2455: 2438: 2423: 2403: 2384: 2362: 2342: 2323: 2289: 2266: 2250: 2224: 2199: 2180: 2165: 2121: 2091: 2069: 2054: 2031: 2013: 1990: 1975: 1958: 1939: 1924: 1887: 1873: 1854: 1836: 1817: 1799: 1786:. This discussion seems to come from the category being populated with games whose female characters don't live up to 1757: 1731: 1717: 1695: 1678: 1633: 1618: 1600: 1582: 1568: 1554: 1536: 1512: 1488: 1474: 1448: 1429: 1411: 1390: 1336: 1321: 1307: 1249: 1182: 1153: 1112: 1070: 1053: 1030: 1006: 931: 866: 791: 747: 728: 696: 626: 609: 588: 555: 538: 497: 426: 403: 389: 368: 339: 323: 306: 279: 256: 237: 223: 187: 154: 124: 97: 4430: 2986: 2729: 4146:

really applies here as there is no opportunity for confusion that would justify a more complex or less-used name. -

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provided the option of selecting one". So it's not as though this is a category that covers almost all video games.

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http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/articles/2013/06/14/why-aren-t-there-more-female-protagonists-in-video-games.html

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Eh, not really. Such a list might be marginally better than nothing, but given the state of existing lists such as

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It never says anything about playing a role. We do not categorize singers by what specific performances they made.

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Company in English ? Also none of the other companies related to Ansaldo built aircraft so not really ambiguous.

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and it served a purpose of a senseless strawman arument to waste everyone's time". OK. Btw, I did take it ANI. --

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John Pack Lambert has already relaized his conderns were invalid, and the term "protagonist" is actually about

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I did not read this whole conversation as the laughably false claims in the nomination were more than enough.

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Reality TV shows are (at least allegedly) not performers playing a role. Rather, they appear as themselves. --

3583:, so obviously (and yes, there are few female prostagonists, of course). But thanks for a voice of reason. -- 5178: 5120: 4719: 4574: 4527: 4330:, which is of course set in a number of places including Newark. It is not set across the Garden State, but 4288: 4075:, "Foo aircraft" is only disambiguated when there are multiple companies by the same or similar names (i.e. 3931: 3731: 3185: 3101: 3025: 2972: 2861: 2816: 2144:, just as the name clearly says). Btw, we had an article like that, it was deleted in favour of a category ( 1935: 1920: 1444: 1303: 1178: 622: 252: 5146:

of Knowledge has gone far enough. The recreated bio article does seem to be notable now, based on expanded

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Whoa, whoa! I make a simple query (a bit blunt, but that's me), and get hit by that? Whatever happened to

2261: 2219: 551: 2078:, it would be far from ideal. The closest thing to a list that I can see working out properly would be a 1587:

Since you're interested in the subject so much: another such non-playable (and female) protagonist is in

5266: 5210: 5071: 5043: 4767: 4739: 4643: 4615: 4326:. I would ask that Sven undo his blanking of the category while this discussion takes place and restore 4199: 4171: 4130: 3979: 3951: 3899: 3871: 3787: 3759: 3042:". Also FFVII has a female co-protagonist alright, actually two pretty well known ones, their names are 1775: 1588: 1226: 1198: 1108: 1092: 1026: 1014: 957: 908: 880: 670: 642: 474: 446: 302: 275: 74: 3700:

I still stand by my earlier view. If we absolutely want to keep this, it should at least be renamed to

5206: 4959:(or the article text made no mention of snow tubing in which case I've removed it from the category). 5223: 5143: 4442: 4403: 4369: 4143: 4090: 4060: 4034: 3705: 3673: 3409: 3285: 3078:, like we widely use "protagonist" and sometimes "antagonist", but she fits the role pretty well). -- 2880: 2838: 2755: 2737: 2656: 2450: 2418: 2379: 2357: 2117: 2065: 2027: 1869: 1832: 1795: 1727: 1709: 1662: 1614: 1578: 1573:

Yup - that's why I'd find a separate subset useful, to better find those few exceptions more easily.

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might be a worthwhile subject for an article, but this category is uselessly broad and unhelpful. --

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What do you disagree with? Why? It's not conducive to discussion if all you state is "I disagree".

3047: 2741: 2733: 2105: 1842: 1767: 1687: 1246: 928: 693: 601: 494: 362: 94: 3730:, but she's not a protagonist of the game. You can play as John F. Kennedy in the Zombies mode of 3016:, lack a female protagonist. But by my definition, even CoD:MW3 has female protagonists. Studying 2022:

an acceptable article, the same criteria can be adopted to make this category helpful and limited.

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There are a few others like Ico, Galatea or Facade. Instead of a split, it can be a non-strict

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Knowledge:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_September_19#Category:Snow_tubing_areas_in_Canada

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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http://www.policymic.com/articles/49659/guess-how-many-video-games-feature-female-protagonists

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Unnecessary level of category specificity, Category:Films set in New Jersey works just fine.

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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intermediate states if you want the finished product to be evolved from a collection of the

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http://www.develop-online.net/news/gdc-13-why-female-protagonists-in-games-are-rare/0114425

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Too few in "a few", really. The ratio of playable to unplayable is like 100:1 or more. --

264:- I paged past this category I don't know how many times without realizing it wasn't for 3216:? Feel free to leave this, I'm going to now because of the response you just gave here. 2897:

is a magazine for game developers) vs a bizarre claim of an anonymous Knowledge user? --

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and remove anything not related to the political act, or, if four entries is deemed too

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It would be if, it had a separate article. Let me help you find it within the article:

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by any of the multitude of places in which it is set (or shot), as none are defining.

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to sustain it, delete and link the articles through appropriate "See also" sections.

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the politician despite the extent to which his reaction was reported in the press.

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Earth have protagonists that are either white or Asian (or mixed white-Asian, like

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it's Kasumi and she's female, and some games have just no protagonists at all). --

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but in the end we got the two female leads. Additionally, there is also a female

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of the two titles, but in practice the two categories are being used differently.

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http://www.livescience.com/9696-video-games-lack-female-minority-characters.html

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and diffuse into subcategories per Diego. The topic is clearly notable and, per

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been described by reliable sources as a defining characteristic of the game.

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don't look like a "game featuring a female protagonist" in the same way that

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Category:Television shows with African-American members of the repeating cast

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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

1784:(Unless there's something about Batman that we've missed all these years...) 1044: 988: 5064: