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the original article, or a copy of the first part of the original article. The subpages for In The News (ITN) and DYK items may also be copies of the lead paragraph or a portion of the article page. This approach to design of portals is sufficiently commonly used that it can be considered standard. However, it is an honorable experiment that has failed, and should be abandoned. In numerous cases, it has been found that portals have displayed outdated and incorrect information to the reader. These discrepancies have been especially common with, but not limited to, political leadership. These discrepancies are a serious problem because they cannot be readily corrected. Knowledge is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, meaning that any reasonably computer-literate person can edit an article; but editing the displayed information in a portal requires specialized technical knowledge of how portals are implemented, which is presumably why errors persist, sometimes for years. An editor who has
Twinkle installed can tag articles in need of editing if they do not have the time or knowledge to fix them; but tagging via Twinkle is not available for portals. Experience has shown that the use of portal subpages that copy portions of articles results in outdated information being displayed, sometimes for years, because it is difficult to correct. This design technique, partial article copies, has been an honorable experiment over the course of more than a decade, but the experiment should be assessed to have been a failure. It has also been noted that copying portions of articles to portal subpages without attribution is a violation of the CC-BY-SA
1619:
guidelines is in dispute. Those who would like to retain existing regional portals, and possibly create more regional portals, may either deal with the existing guidelines or propose to revise them. If they prefer to deal with the existing guidelines, there are two issues. The first is that the status of the guidelines is in doubt, appearing to have been a failed proposal. The second is that the existing document refers to readers and maintainers, who cannot simply be assumed or willed into existence. Since the present (contested) guidelines refer not simply to broad subject areas, but to broad subject areas that will attract readers and portal maintainers, any specific portal can be shown by observation not to be attracting readers or maintainers.
1605:? If Knowledge is only expected to provide an empty portal, what good is that? It appears that the implication is that Knowledge is expected to provide a portal to a maintainer and to continue to keep the portal facing outward toward the readers whether or not it is being maintained. Portal advocates who think that particular levels of regions "should have" portals should clarify what obligation they are implying and on whom.
1017:: This portal contains basic information about the state but needs updating and improvement. It would be far better to mark this portal as needing updating and improvement rather than simply deleting it. It is far easier to rebuild a portal than to create a portal from scratch, unless you want to delete all portals, which is a whole other issue. For the status of regional portals, see
988:. A theoretical argument could be made that Iowa is a broad topic. I disagree with that theoretical argument (sub-national entities rarely seem to work as portals), but we don't need to rely on theory because we have empirical evidence that in practice this portal does not pass that test: it has not attracted maintainers, and it has not attracted readers. --
1598:, of which Knowledge is a prominent site, provide a portal? If only that, the government of the nation, state, or province can and almost certainly does provide and maintain a portal in the form of its web site, as do lesser regions such as counties, cantons, districts, communes, cities, towns, townships, boroughs, and villages.
1507:
After a decade of widespread abandonment of portals, hundreds of recent MFDs show that consensus has turned against indefinitely keeping this sort of abandoned junk in the hope that every few years it may get the sort of sporadic update which NA1K promises. It is time for NA1K to stop defending the
1471:
Two newish features of the
Wikimedia software means that the article and navboxes offers all the functionality which portals like this set out to offer. Both features are available only to ordinary readers who are not logged in, but you can test them without logging out by right-clicking on a link,
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One common method for the design of portals, in use at least since 2005, has involved sometimes large numbers of subpages of the portal, one for each selected article and picture, and sometimes for news items and Do You Know (DYK) items. Often the subpages for selected articles consist of a copy of
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NA1K repeatedly says of abandoned portals that "there is only so much one person can do", and I agree entirely. One person may be able to rush around like a firefighter on amphetamines and push a series of portals over the threshold, but that one person cannot maintain the dozens of portals which
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to implement new portal guidelines, either the old guidelines, or a slightly revised version of the old guidelines, or an entirely new set of guidelines. In that case, advocates of regional portals should be on notice that the new guidelines either should explicitly identify certain subjects that
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This is an asinine deletion request, and as stated above it's just plain lazy. If it needs to be updated than mark it accordingly and see if someone does that first. Also, the smaller states are going to generate less interest. Should we start eliminating other pages related to them because they
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RFC while showing no sign of actually having read it. ENDPOIRTALS was a proposal to delete all portals in one go, and that proposal was rejected. It was not a proposal to keep every abandoned junk portal, and Moxy's repeated pretence that it means something other than what it said is dishonest.
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states that portals should be about broad subject areas that will attract readers and portal maintainers. Portal advocates have focused on the reference to "broad subject areas" and have disregarded the two-part reference to readers and portal maintainers. At present, the status of the portal
1503:
Those new technologies set a high bar for any portal which actually tries to add value for the reader. But this portals fails the basic requirements even of the guidelines written before the new technologies changed the game, and NA1K doesn't even suggest any way in which they intend to avoid
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The first part of the question is: Who is expected to do what in order to provide the portal? Should
Knowledge provide and maintain a portal? Should Knowledge provide a portal without maintaining it? Should Knowledge provide a portal, contingent on having a portal maintainer and a portal
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WP:POG is a pariah guideline, it failed to gain consensus support, and masqueraded as a guideline ever since. It has been proven to be hopelessly lax, full of lax, dreamlike statements. It allowed for a free for all mass creation of unsuitable portals. *Not even* meeting WP:POG is a damning
931:. Portals that are not maintained are useless, and, if the information that is facing the reader becomes out-of-date, they are worse than useless, because anyone can edit an article, but heritage portals with subpages contain old copies of articles that require special knowledge to edit.
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The idea that any portal will magically attract maintainers might have made sense a decade ago in the era when the editor base was rapidly growing ... but n 2019, with editor numbers much much lower, it's not just a flight of fancy or magical thinking: it's a straightforward denial of
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mouseover: on any link, mouseover shows you the picture and the start of the lead. So the preview-selected page-function of portals is redundant: something almost as good is available automatically on any navbox or other set of links. Try it by right-clicking on this link to
1058:. Buaidh's comment is just more of the magical thinking which a decade ago saw editors create hundreds of portals on a high-maintenance model ... but a decade later we can see the evidence that there simply aren't enough editors willing and able to maintain this portal. --
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This portal should be deleted without prejudice to re-creating a portal maintained by a volunteer who is willing to invest the time to support a miniature Main Page under the portal guidelines that are in effect at the time, but not involving partial copies to subpages.
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Your main problem is linking a disputed page...so hard to see its weight as it applies here. What do you personally consider a big topic and worthy of keeping or effort to fix ....I take it 15,186 articles is to smal as is 35, 000 as stated in the past.....how
1048:, but the reality is that this is just another of the many hundred of portals which languished for a decade without being improve or updated. It gets too few readers to attract the efforts of editors, so if it is kept it will simply continue to rot.
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are considered portal-worthy even without maintenance, or it can be understood that regional portals, like other subject areas, are only considered to be broad subject areas if they demonstrate that they attract readers and maintainers.
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is risible, and it is demonstrably made in bad faith. As NA1K well knows, very few editors work on portals: they are complex to edit, and have low readership, so editors rightly choose to put their energies elsewhere. That is why the
1369:
XFD decisions should be made on the basis of actual guidelines, not on the basis of one editor's desire to apply the Humpty Dumpty principle that ""When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to meanâneither more nor less."
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wrote: "I consider U.S. states to meet WP:POG guidelines in terms of being broad enough in topical scope to qualify for a portal." Such statements raise a two-part question, having to do with people, and with policies.
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is a longstanding guideline, and the fact that someone has tagged it as disputed does not invalidate it. AS you know, the discussion there is strongly in favour of upholding the clauses which you dislike.
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The second part of the question is how the idea that countries or states "should have" portals should be reflected in
Knowledge's policies and guidelines. At present, the page that is designated as the
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In other discussions, NA1K has offered to to do a rapid update of the portal. I note that there is no such offer here, and instead NA1K proposes tagging the portal to ask someone else to do the update.
1103:. It's very concerning that your deleting portal after portal but have no clue how to fix them or to lazy to tag them manually to inform the community that a portal needs updating.. --
1460:"Portals which require manual updating are at a greater risk of nomination for deletion if they are not kept up to date. Do not expect other editors to maintain a portal you create"
1444:
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of portals which existed a year ago had rotted for years or even for a decade: there are not enough willing maintainers to sustain such a wide number of portals.
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But the bottom line is that issues such as this are not decided by rants but by policy and guidelines, and the fact remains that this portals does not meet the
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NA1K's approach is to preserve portals at any cost, regardless of quality and regardless of whether they are maintained. They objected angrily to populating
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What this portal needs, like other abandoned portals, is not just two hours of rapid update to raise it just above a deletion threshold. what it needs is:
1622:
The other option for the advocates of regional portals, or for anyone who wants to provide better guidelines with regard to portals, would be to publish a
115:. This portal has 10 articles and 5 biographies, but none more recent than 2011. In The News Items are from 2011 and 2012, including the re-election of
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threshold. That approach in article space just left us with perma-stubs, and when applied to portals it just preserves abandoned portals to rot again.
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automatic imagery galleries: clicking on an image brings up an image gallery of all the images on that page. It's full-screen, so it's actually much
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not to be attracting readers or a portal maintainer. A portal is a miniature Main Page and requires a substantial investment in volunteer time.
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1095:"pages that contain unattributed text do not normally need to be deleted. Attribution can be belatedly supplied"...fixit as per
1021:. Our regional portals are dying a slow death. It would be far more humane to kill them all with a single stroke. Yours aye,
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don't generate as much interest? We need more editors to do the work rather than busybodies eliminating what we already have.
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is correctly identified, but that is because the portal is picking that information up from the infobox for the lead article
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1428:, which was to preserve some stub on a barely notable topic by adding a few sourced factoids which brought it just over the
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template. Then notify relevant
Wikiprojects that the portal would benefit from updating. I consider U.S. states to meet
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is an admin, and should know better than to try reducing this discussion to Alice in
Wonderland, so I hope that the
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1312:. Fails the objectives of a portal (it doesnât help anyone with anything). Redundant to the parent article. â
1364:"broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers"
1252:"broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers"
1196:"broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers"
1127:"broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers"
1056:"broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers"
986:"broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers"
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a complete overhaul to avoid replicating the functionality provided by the new wiki technologies (see below)
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1468:. Not updated once in a drive-by-session, but regularly maintained. NA1K is not even offering to do that.
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than a click-for-next image gallery on a portal. Try it by right-clicking on this link to the article
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below.
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Moxy, you are either being very childish or have exceedingly low comprehension skills. Or maybe both.
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If
Knowledge is expected to provide and maintain a portal, how can that obligation be reconciled with
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NA1K's personal view of the guidelines is not supported by the long-standing text of the guidelines.
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1254:... so a portal with a scope of a billion articles fails if it lacks readers and maintainers. --
1089:: no valid reason for deletion -this odd rationale will have every portal gone.....read over
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and is not permitted. Some other design approach for portals should be used in the future.
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and the select "open in private window" (in
Firefox) or "open in incognito window" (Chrome).
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guidelines in terms of being broad enough in topical scope to qualify for a portal. Cheers,
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's
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Editor edits sporadically. News is obsolete. 4 articles and 1 bio, last updated in 2008.
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Originator inactive since 2011. Two biographies. Two articles. Last maintained in 2008.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's
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Originator last edited in 2011. One featured article at a time without other articles.
1539:- The portal needs updating and editors seem to be willing to work on improvements. -
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1366:. Per the evidence above this one has not attracted either readers or maintainers.
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As you well know, the breadth of a topic is not defined solely by article count.
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Some editors have stated that particular levels of regions should have portals.
1491:, open in a private/incognito tab, and click on any image to start the slideshow
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Originator inactive since 2010. No maintenance since 2010, except news is 2016.
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Originator edits sporadically. Last maintained in 2012 except for AWB tweaks.
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It is risible to the point of disruptiveness that Moxy continues to cite the
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Knowledge:Village pump (proposals)#RfC: Ending the system of portals take 2
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worthless junk portal, one selected article and 5 selected 5 biographies.
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After correction for renaming. (Total of 39 pageviews in two months.)
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Originator inactive since 2007. Has had some maintenance since then.
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wrote (in April, in an MFD): "all countries should have portals".
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5 articles and 3 bios, last updated in 2008. Last tweaked in 2016.
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This is an unmaintained and little-viewed portal on a state of the
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A complete listing of state portals with metrics can be seen at
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Selected biography out of date. Last updates appear to be 2011.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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because it was "being used by deletionists". They propose the
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The following is a listing of the least-viewed state portals:
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to be a broad subject area, but this portal has been shown
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Originator inactive since 2012. No maintenance since 2010.
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Originator inactive since 2011. No maintenance since 2011.
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No maintenance since 2008. Two articles. Two biographies.
1480:, open in a private/incognito tab, and mouseover any link.
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is bringing here the approach used in their days with the
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Originator inactive since 2010. Last maintenance in 2008.
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Fine rant, Farragutful. Hope you feel better after that.
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available since 2015 to users of
Knowledge's Android app
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Originator inactive since 2016. Last maintenance 2011.
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Originator inactive since 2007. Last maintenance 2009.
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Originator inactive since 2013. Last maintenance 2009.
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Originator inactive since 2011. Not mained since 2007.
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1451:, because they prefer not to identify abandon portals.
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Originator banned. Selected pages same as in 2007.
1384:The that a solution lies in tagging a portal with
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1655:). No further edits should be made to this page.
942:A state of the United States may be considered
8:
1129:. This portal does not meet that criterion.
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1194:requirement that portals should be about
1504:duplicating the new built-in features.
1362:requires that portals should be about
1250:requires that portals should be about
1125:requires that portals should be about
1054:requires that portals should be about
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984:requires that portals should be about
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48:The result of the discussion was:
1378:will discount this flight of fancy.
1449:Category:Abandoned country portals
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1609:Impact on Policies and Guidelines
18:Knowledge:Miscellany for deletion
976:. Yet another abandoned portal.
1121:Moxy, the valid reason is that
845:Originator inactive since 2009.
754:Originator inactive since 2013.
732:Originator inactive since 2007.
666:Originator inactive since 2016.
644:Originator inactive since 2018.
622:Originator inactive since 2012.
600:Originator inactive since 2014.
490:Originator inactive since 2009.
1019:User:Buaidh/Geographic portals
710:Originator inactive since 2013
121:President of the United States
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1603:Knowledge is not compulsory
1496:Similar features have been
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1594:maintenance plan? Should
1426:WP:Article Rescue Squadron
929:WP:US State Portal Metrics
578:No maintenance since 2010.
399:No maintenance since 2011.
218:No maintenance since 2010.
1566:19:57, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
1549:17:42, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
1436:have no other maintainer.
1036:17:52, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
1008:17:55, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
968:04:27, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
467:Last article update 2012.
64:07:00, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
1645:Please do not modify it.
1637:05:29, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
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1350:12:18, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
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1046:updating and improvement
32:Please do not modify it.
1044:It's easy to write of
688:Being reworked by MJL.
1582:User:Northamerica1000
1624:Request for Comments
1458:has said since 2006
1441:Category:All portals
1589:Who Should Do What?
1462:. Note that phrase
1415:ongoing maintenance
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458:Rhode Island
209:South Dakota
163:North Dakota
133:
117:Barack Obama
110:
50:no consensus
49:
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31:
28:
1171:Farragutful
679:Connecticut
613:Mississippi
78:Portal:Iowa
70:Portal:Iowa
55:âScottywong
1578:User:Kusma
1558:Catfurball
1514:HairedGirl
1260:HairedGirl
1204:HairedGirl
1143:HairedGirl
1064:HairedGirl
994:HairedGirl
858:Washington
745:New Mexico
1649:talk page
1489:Wisconsin
1314:SmokeyJoe
1285:SmokeyJoe
903:Tennessee
723:Louisiana
635:Minnesota
481:Wisconsin
158:Articles
37:talk page
1651:or in a
1523:contribs
1508:junk. --
1409:updating
1403:reality.
1397:majority
1269:contribs
1213:contribs
1152:contribs
1073:contribs
1032:contribs
1003:contribs
945:a priori
937:copyleft
813:Missouri
701:Michigan
657:Maryland
569:Kentucky
503:Oklahoma
436:Delaware
344:Nebraska
149:Comments
39:or in a
1024:Buaidh
547:Indiana
367:Wyoming
321:Vermont
232:Montana
155:Percent
123:. The
91:history
1554:Delete
1519:(talk)
1485:better
1456:WP:POG
1389:update
1360:WP:POG
1341:WP:POG
1334:Update
1310:Delete
1265:(talk)
1248:WP:POG
1241:WP:POG
1223:big?--
1209:(talk)
1192:WP:POG
1148:(talk)
1123:WP:POG
1092:WP:RIA
1069:(talk)
1052:WP:POG
999:(talk)
982:WP:POG
974:Delete
915:165.11
892:376.39
880:Alaska
870:228.29
848:240.47
825:201.41
802:178.56
779:234.19
757:208.25
735:199.13
713:244.50
691:194.31
669:221.00
647:252.33
625:195.50
603:200.93
591:Kansas
581:209.07
559:199.07
537:185.71
526:Nevada
515:208.31
493:240.92
470:230.00
448:206.92
425:200.75
402:228.73
379:337.55
356:292.90
333:208.10
311:264.40
289:299.90
267:264.11
244:420.67
221:215.75
198:299.25
175:233.63
1512:Brown
1258:Brown
1202:Brown
1141:Brown
1062:Brown
992:Brown
918:0.61%
895:0.27%
873:0.44%
851:0.42%
828:0.50%
805:0.56%
782:0.43%
760:0.48%
738:0.50%
716:0.41%
694:0.51%
672:0.45%
650:0.40%
628:0.51%
606:0.50%
584:0.48%
562:0.50%
540:0.54%
518:0.48%
496:0.42%
473:0.43%
451:0.48%
428:0.50%
405:0.44%
382:0.30%
359:0.34%
336:0.48%
314:0.38%
292:0.33%
278:Maine
270:0.38%
255:Idaho
247:0.24%
224:0.46%
201:0.33%
178:0.43%
152:Ratio
140:Title
99:watch
95:links
16:<
1633:talk
1562:talk
1545:talk
1537:Keep
1327:Keep
1318:talk
1289:talk
1226:Moxy
1198:. --
1175:talk
1166:Keep
1106:Moxy
1087:Keep
1029:talk
1015:Keep
964:talk
909:2972
886:6775
864:3881
842:4088
819:3424
796:2857
790:Utah
773:3747
751:3332
729:3186
707:3912
685:3109
663:3315
641:3785
619:2737
597:2813
575:2927
553:2787
532:2600
509:2708
487:3132
464:2760
442:2483
419:2409
396:2516
390:Iowa
373:3713
350:2929
327:2081
305:2644
284:2999
261:2377
238:3786
215:1726
192:2394
169:1869
131:.
129:Iowa
103:logs
87:talk
83:edit
1521:⢠(
1447:of
1267:⢠(
1211:⢠(
1150:⢠(
1071:⢠(
1001:⢠(
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119:as
1635:)
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1392:}}
1386:{{
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1137:--
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81:(
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