654:
if a schools group or many of its schools are controversial, newly proposed individual schools should also be listed, even if not yet open and not controversial at the time, but then if a newly proposed school is not open or controverted even after a month it should be deleted from the article. Even for an individual school not listed but which is likely accepting applications for teachers and students, a community to be served by such a school arguably should be listed. In any case, if some individual schools are not listed in the article and if the group's official website, a government website, or another reliable website lists individual schools, that website should be listed in the
External Links section.
222:, the question of who is and is not the head of a school is a fact without which the school article can survive. If maintaining current staff information were considered to be problematic, the pragmatic solution of removing information about current staff solves the problem without removing other information about the school, including (in most countries) links to public sources of information about schools which go back years or even decades and give extremely detailed public information about the school and its performance relative to national expectations and to other schools in the district, region, and country. And, of course, information about who was the head teacher at the time of the inspection.
231:
precisely because we're so open to growth (which means a larger number of active editors). Keeping every school article doesn't mean instantly making one for every school today, so the editor count can grow with the growth of the article count. The fact there are 6 billion people in the world doesn't make it hard to maintain school articles, it means we have that many more people to recruit editors from, if and only if we provide good encyclopedic content they are interested in. Those who are interested in editing schools are as likely as anybody else to help out in other areas of
Knowledge (XXG).
646:
separate articles. Obvious identification applies where a group of schools in which individual schools have similar names or a common name root, so that probably many or most people can guess or identify the group from the name of an individual school; but subtle identification applies where the school names are very different so that most people cannot guess or identify the group from the name of an individual school.
41:
729:), or any article where the school is relevant. With merges, one must pick a single place to put the school's information, and all other places must either point to this merged-article (which may contain hundreds of other schools and/or other unrelated information) or they must repeat information about the school in each location.
583:. A school's own website may be of questionable reliability as they are at best written by those employed by the school and usually portray the school in the most favorable light with little if any external review or scrutiny. Sometimes school websites are created and maintained by the students themselves.
653:
information about an individual school. Not all individual schools should be listed if they are not separately weighty or controversial, and some editors reportedly believe that individual schools proposed but that are both not yet open and not sourceably controversial should not be listed. Arguably,
230:
We attract readers only if we provide something of interest to them. Readers become and remain editors, only if we allow them to improve and create articles of importantance and of interest to them and others. Knowledge (XXG) is often more up to date than other encyclopedia's with far fewer articles,
744:
Often, the problems of district mergers, are handled by merging to other places. But, this creates a problem of predicting where to look. One school goes to the neighbourhood, the other to the town, the other to the county, and some even go to the country. It is possible that, if information about a
736:
Some novice users are intimidated by huge district articles listing many schools, and are unlikely to add relevant information specific to their school. For instance, adding notable alumni for one school, in a list of many schools is very hard. Also, when a separate school article is necessitated, a
732:
Merges to districts often ignore that districts can easily have their borders changed, or be eliminated entirely (requiring the movement of all information about the school). An editor might think to update the district article, but probably won't remember to look for all the redirects (pointing the
498:
4. a. The argument that towns are sometimes of equal or less significance fails this maintenance test. Town information is readily available to be populated and maintained by bot. Stubby school articles are of no value; lengthy school articles are impossible to keep current. Moreover, a town article
198:
5. Schools are an excellent entry point for new
Wikipedians. In reviewing their contributions, we can educate and inform them about third party verifiability and NPOV as they help build the common knowledge base. A good experience collaboratively editing something "close to home" will encourage long
700:
While many jurisdictions have just one district in a given spot, many schools aren't part of any district at all. Charter schools and private schools are, by nature, normally independent of any district. A merge or redirect could falsely associate a school with the district its physically contained
562:
8. Since most of the editors who know about a given school went there (or to a nearby school) themselves, this could lead to articles about specific principals, teachers, and students, none of whom have any notability aside from being associated with a "notable" school. Just because a famous person
502:
4. b. For most schools, only residents of the area surrounding that school know, need to know, or care that the school exists. Those people already know more about the school than we do, without our getting into overly specific levels of detail (e.g. writing about the buildings, the capacity of the
459:
2. a. A school is indeed a location where people spend a significant portion of their lives. So is an apartment complex. So is any business enterprise. All such places are shaped by the personalities of the people who work and live there. That form of putative uniqueness is not itself encyclopedic.
256:
9. The determination of schools accepted and not should be consistent across the board. If one school, university, or graduate school is acceptable, then any school is acceptable. What is deemed notable, important, or otherwise recordable is subjective to the observer. Discrimination should have an
95:
This is not a talk page. Do not sign your contributions. Do not argue with other people. Simply provide what you think is a good reason for keeping or deleting schools, in the appropriate section, and reword and copyedit as necessary if you think something is unclear. Do not push your point; simply
72:
The issue of articles on schools in
Knowledge (XXG) has long been a controversial one. There are a number of valid points both for and against these articles, and any recent discussion on them has simply boiled down to a reiteration of these points. In the spirit of civility and progress, we should
740:
Many school districts have hundreds of schools, and district articles that list them all, are more difficult to maintain. Separate school articles effectively split the work of maintenance. An editor interested in only one school, may update that schools article, but might be less likely to update
180:
3. c. Schools are not donut shops, traffic lights, or telephone books, they're where we spend a large proportion of our waking lives, where we learn to be adults, gain skills and make friends. They play a large part in determining what kind of society we have. Schools are also community gathering
696:
For many jurisdictions, a school may be inside the physical boundaries of multiple school districts (operating in parallel), but is operated by just one, and many people (even some locals) will not know which is appropriate. Many merge or redirect proposals. mistakenly link a school to the wrong
629:
Counter argument to "don't merge argument about redirects do not work with categories": categories are not used in some sites to which
Knowledge (XXG) articles are re-destributed such as answers.com. Categories should not be used as the exclusive way of organizing information, making this a weak
399:
You may say "it clutters the recent changes list". Knowledge (XXG) does indeed have a problem with that. Many articles are deadweight and should get deleted. But a school article is a living part of our political environment, written and viewed by enough people who care. (Again, a mere technical
260:
10. In a mobile society parents frequently move to another community for employment or other good reason. When they do so they often have a choice of neighbourhoods within that community. An important factor in making that choice is the school to which they will send their children. Developing a
209:
From the historical view, that fact about a headmaster's appointment can be recorded as a historical detail: "In 1961 Jeff Smith was appointed head of
Portnoy Boys." A later editor may add that in 1971 Jeff Smith retired and Veronica Spice replaced him. In any case this is verifiable information
661:
Grouping by ownership or management avoids the problem of associating schools with political jurisdictions such as cities when the schools may serve multiple jurisdictions or with districts when charter, special, or private schools may occupy their own districts regardless of their geographical
645:
A group of schools with which individual schools are obviously identified probably should be written up in a single article; whereas a group of schools with which individual schools are only subtly identified could be written up either in a single article or, for each school that is notable, in
129:
2. b. Rather than striving for an elusive consensus to delete a given school article, some feel it is always preferable and usually takes much less energy to merge the text of the article into an article about a suitable habitation or administrative unit: a city, county, or state, or a school
130:
district of local education authority of other school system, while taking care not to delete the information contained in the article. The article itself should be replaced by a redirect. (This particular argument for merges is not supported by all who favor keeping school articles, see
541:
6. a. There are approximately 6 billion human beings on earth. Conservatively, estimate that 1 billion of those are of primary or secondary school age. Again conservatively, estimate that only half of those actually attend school. If every school has 1000 students, then that presents
681:), and these articles can list schools and school groups. This concept can be extended to other nations and other school types. If a list grows to be too long to keep within such an article, lists can be separated onto their own pages and linked to from articles on types.
711:
player started playing at, but not know or care about the school's district. They may be interested in that school's football program, and other alumni who turned pro, but won't find such information in a school district article (or update such information, if they have
733:
school name to the district article). A person interested in old school, newly apart of a new district, may not be able to find it (as its still in the old district's article), and may even add it to the new district's article, without removing it from the old one.
657:
Redirects can be added from the name of each individual school, allowing categories that are limited to schools to be assigned to the redirects, while categories appropriate to the schools group as a whole would be assigned to the article about the group.
510:
4. d. An inadequate and inaccurate school article does not introduce young people to the virtues of an encyclopedia. It invites them to belittle the encyclopedia. It is hard to regain the credibility lost on one insignificant subject a new reader knows
566:
9. If the school is largely unheard of outside its own district, all our article does is give the school free advertising. Other types of "free advertising" articles for local individuals, clubs, and businesses get deleted in AfD without question.
376:
cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right... and a desire to know; but besides this, they have a right, an indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of
331:
of facts, truths or information gained in the form of experience or learning (a posteriori), or through introspection (a priori). Knowledge is an appreciation of the possession of interconnected details which, in isolation, are of lesser
477:
2. d. The pro-schools case attempts to blur the distinction between primary, secondary, and higher education. Traditional encyclopedias include universities and equivalent institutions. Only primary and secondary schools are subject to
456:. Every donut shop "affects thousands of lives", as does every phone book, every traffic light, etc. Rows of things performing identical functions are not responsible for nor creditable with the individual experiences of that function.
506:
4. c. Many schools have identical names. There are literally hundreds of schools called "Washington
Elementary School" in the United States. Knowledge (XXG) disambiguation is not well suited to distinguish a great multitude of similar
194:
audiences of reasonable size. Instead of removing material, technical means can be found to make general topics more prominent to researchers, such as rating more obscure pages "of little general interest" and demoting them in search
724:
Links work with merged district articles, but poorly. A link to an individual school article can be made from several places, the town or neighborhood article, the school district article, articles on a special type of school (like
177:, and by providing readers with a way of finding out about individual schools, including what independent or government inspectors have to say about their teaching standards, Knowledge (XXG) performs a useful encyclopedic function.
490:
4. Articles are very difficult to maintain, e.g. a change of headmaster needs reporting in order for it to be kept up-to-date. Since there are a vast number of schools in the world, no one will actually do this maintenance. See
202:
6. It has been said that school articles are not maintainable because, for instance, every time a school headmaster or principal changes it should be edited to accommodate the change. There are two counters with that argument:
546:
for the schools category alone. This number is equal to 8.6% of the total current
English language articles (5,802,000 as-of February 2019) or 33% the entire Spanish language Knowledge (XXG) (1,504,000 articles as-of February
573:
9. b. Conversely, it would be an inconsistent policy to reject for-profit school articles as advertisement while keeping equivalent articles about nonprofit schools. Therefore there need to be notability standards for all
503:
bleachers in their football fields, etc.). One does not consult an encyclopedia for information about a school; if they need to know more about it, they can call or visit the school, consult the school's website, etc.
439:
Its students might perform outstanding charity work. Its walls might feature beautiful student murals. There are many forms of noteworthiness. Knowledge (XXG) inclusion should be something a school can aspire to
403:
Knowledge (XXG)'s mission statement is "Knowledge (XXG), the 💕." If you look at the translation into other languages, you'll find that this does not (primarily) mean "free of charge", but "free" as in
126:
2. a. Presently people do create school articles containing neutral, verifiable information and it is difficult to delete them, even though many think these articles are too trivial for
Knowledge (XXG).
604:
Arguments in favour of merging most school articles into the city, town, village, borough, or neighborhood they lie in. If that is impractical it is preferable to merge them with the school district.
463:
2. b. Most human beings will master basic literacy and arithmetic in any adequately instructive setting. An institution that only imparts such routine information, while laudable, is non-noteworthy.
357:
You may ask: "But is it relevant for the readers of
Knowledge (XXG)?". This school has probably had some 10,000 students in its history. Add their parents, and you'll see that it shaped and touched
425:
1. Individual schools are not inherently encyclopedic and there is nothing to distinguish insignificant schools like this one from thousands of nearly identical schools around the world.
435:
1. b. A school may become noteworthy if it distinguishes itself in some way. Its academic performance might be exceptional. It could win sporting championships. It could earn a place in
586:
11. Simply being a school grants no special consideration. There is no guideline or policy on articles which is specific to schools, as a result each article on a school must adhere to
448:
2. Unless the article demonstrates that this particular school is significant among other schools, it has no unique identity and can be adequately covered by a general article like
587:
429:
states "Knowledge (XXG) is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia."
617:
The small amount of attention most school articles gets make vandalism towards them more difficult to detect since fewer people, if any, have such articles on their watchlists.
721:, which lets people pick a school, by knowing the approximate article name (but not typing it exactly). They needn't know which district it's in, or even if it has a district.
487:
about them, or maintaining schoolwatch pages distracts our editors from writing about, or improving articles on, topics that would actually be found in a printed encyclopedia.
432:
1. a. Granting inclusion to non-noteworthy schools is like handing students a passing grade just for showing up to class. Minimal standards encourage minimal accomplishment.
336:
This is true for this article, at least potentially. This article is an encouragement for students to consolidate their knowledge, as defined above, and to interconnect it.
614:
However, it is conceivable that a person reading about the location will be interested in any institutions of education based there, and that includes the local schools.
611:
At a local level schools may well be a notable public institution, but on a larger scale most people have not heard about them and do not care much about them either.
608:
Most school articles are short, and will remain short. In most cases there is not much to say about the school either, so it is doubtful they need a separate article.
470:
to establish some standard of noteworthiness for keeping a school article. Such standards exist for churches, businesses, clubs, and other institutions. It is rather
737:
novice is unlikely to know how to undo a redirect. A vicious circle is created: the merge prevents expansion, and the lack of expansion is used to justify the merge
707:
Most people interested in a school, simply don't care about the district. For instance, a football fan might be interested to know about the high school a famous
400:
problem: I think Knowledge (XXG) should allow users to filter their recent changes lists intelligently, e.g. by excluding every school outside of their county.)
623:
It is easier to verify articles when merged with common links. Many of the sources used to verify schools such as Ofsted reports in the UK cover many schools.
240:
7. Jimbo Wales said people should relax and accommodate those who write high school articles, as long as they're not mass-inserting a ton of one-line stubs.
620:
It is easier for users to add information about a single school to a merged list because one does not need to create a whole article about a school.
453:
166:
758:
642:
Charter, parochial, private nonparochial, and public noncharter schools may be organized so as to have common ownership or shared management.
633:
The school district, unlike most school articles, particularly those on elementary and middle schools, is likely to meet notability guidelines
245:
8. There are multitudes of US city articles which could be said to be "trivial", and one may say "well, those cities usually have more people
531:
393:
187:
550:
6. b. Keeping such a group updated would require 685 editors each verifying and editing one article every day without holiday for two years.
56:
It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Knowledge (XXG) contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of
693:
While there is no consistent approach to school mergers, the most common suggested approach, is to merge to the school district, however:
57:
704:
School district boundaries are often very different than municipality boundaries, and it's easy for people to look to the wrong district.
718:
92:
meant as a debate, but as a convenient place where people can read about and try to understand the opinions on both sides of the issue.
650:
534:, but our resources are still finite. Bandwidth, disk space, and server speed are all limited at some point. The time of Wikimedia's
570:
9. a. Some schools are for-profit enterprises. To grant them free advertising creates conflict with other Knowledge (XXG) policies.
384:
273:
186:
4. It is argued that wikipedia is a general encyclopedia, and that school articles only serve a narrow, local audience. However,
181:
points, where many students and former students can share common experiences and knowledge – a central theme to Knowledge (XXG).
748:
Ultimately, if information about a school is worthy of having, its worthy of having in a place that can be found and updated.
143:
3. Those who advocate the deletion of schools sometimes use an argument to the effect that a school that doesn't have some
162:
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673:
are the subject of one article, it has been suggested that articles be created on charter schools in each U.S. state (
257:
objective measure upon which to weigh its inclusion or exclusion. All rules or laws should be consistent and unbiased.
523:
value. If information on a school is verifiable, people who want it can get it without our help. Otherwise, it fails
580:
524:
678:
745:
school is added, it's added redundantly, in various places, and is left in an out-of-date or inconsistent state.
538:
is limited. We could not have articles on absolutely everything even if we wanted to. Prioritization is needed.
396:. Even if every school in the world had an article, I don't see any problem that couldn't be solved technically.
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147:
attribute – apart from being an institution of learning – has no identity and shouldn't be in Knowledge (XXG).
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77:, and stop arguing the point. A failed attempt at compromise is archived for historical purposes at
17:
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Within an article on a group, individual schools can be listed, and should be if sourcing provides
250:
49:
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about the school (school head appointments are public information) and also has historical value.
443:
1. c. Schools that feel motivated to strive for Knowledge (XXG) inclusion become better schools.
261:
series of good articles about all the schools in a community helps parents to make that choice.
421:
In the debate, arguments used by those who oppose keeping or merging school articles include:
74:
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253:, for example, has a population of only 9 people. So why include small cities over schools?
241:
101:
97:
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Encyclopedic? I don't think so — Why is this high school given a Knowledge (XXG) entry?
154:; there is no Knowledge (XXG) policy requirement that corresponds to this, it's just an
670:
170:
590:. This includes the requirement of significant coverage in reliable 3rd-party sources.
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449:
383:(This was originally in reply to deletion of some criticism. For more quotes see the
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64:. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints.
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of any school should be enough to establish this truism. Someone who looks up the
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2. Schools are important public institutions and should probably be written about
717:
Redirects do not work with categories. People find articles in categories, like
114:
88:
This page is a list of commonly used arguments for or against schools. This is
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3. b. Each school is different from every other school – a look at the latest
535:
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4. e. More than most articles, school articles are magnets for vandalism.
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went to a school does not mean that the school itself is notable either.
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Knowledge (XXG) is the Founding Fathers' dream come true. John Adams: "
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5. We don't need to have information in Knowledge (XXG) unless it has
354:. If this is what you were asking then the answer is: "Of course not!"
347:. A school should empower its students to become responsible citizens.
358:
155:
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information in a large table of schools they're not interested in.
315:
From Knowledge (XXG): "An encyclopedia is a written compendium of
499:
is an excellent place to put a brief description of its schools.
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condition constructed to justify opposition to school articles.
35:
123:, even when they cannot sustain an article on their own.
588:
Knowledge (XXG):Notability (organizations and companies)
460:
Its value must be measured by the results it produces.
408:". I don't see how anyone who shares this value could
381:, I mean the characters and conduct of their rulers."
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would not want to see a link to the report card for
600:Into political units, neighborhoods, and districts
304:Should it be tolerated? What if everyone did this?
227:6. c. Knowledge (XXG)'s editors are its readers.
311:has several senses. Let's look at each of them:
293:Actually, I think you're asking two questions:
24:Knowledge (XXG):Notability (schools)/Arguments
559:nor free web hosting to advertise the school.
8:
483:3. Creating articles on schools, arguing on
215:6. b. the rejection of a trivial argument.
759:Knowledge (XXG):Notability (high schools)
474:to exempt schools from common standards.
454:secondary education in the United States
58:Knowledge (XXG)'s policies or guidelines
7:
350:"Encyclopedic" can mean: similar to
345:encompassing, well-rounded education
719:Category:High schools in California
544:500,000 separate article candidates
412:tolerate an article about a school.
199:term involvement in a positive way.
62:thoroughly vetted by the community
31:
701:in, but not actually operated by.
274:Talk:Bishop Blanchet High School
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39:
33:Essay on editing Knowledge (XXG)
662:preference areas for students.
579:10. Many schools lack reliable
555:7. Knowledge (XXG) is not the
218:From the point of view of the
1:
525:Knowledge (XXG):Verifiability
220:rejection of trivial argument
532:Knowledge (XXG) is not paper
394:Knowledge (XXG) is not paper
188:Knowledge (XXG) is not paper
83:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Schools
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493:Knowledge (XXG):Maintenance
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679:charter schools (New York)
206:6. a. the historical view
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630:argument against mergers.
249:them than a school." Yet
709:National Football League
190:and can afford to serve
150:3. a. This is a case of
727:Alberta charter schools
437:Guinness World Records.
368:— I don't see why not.
366:Should it be tolerated?
352:Encyclopedia Britannica
175:Mount Tabor High School
79:Knowledge (XXG):Schools
18:Knowledge (XXG):Schools
775:Knowledge (XXG) essays
626:Merges are reversible.
406:freedom of information
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339:In my understanding,
167:HMI inspection report
60:, as it has not been
323:— "Knowledge is the
251:Perth, North Dakota
96:agree to disagree.
638:Into school groups
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361:of people's lives.
266:Exemplary argument
163:school report card
666:Into larger types
392:It doesn't hurt.
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75:agree to disagree
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132:#Merge
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