251:, are comprised mostly or almost entirely of these analyses, which, in general practice in most scholarly music writing and Knowledge (XXG) editing, would be only a few short paragraphs or sentences long. Also included for each are full chart trajectories, showing where the song was on the Hot 100 during each week it charted, and, in another instance of mild point-of-view editing, "#1" positions are always bolded (I was told by one of the anon contributors that this was done to "show recognition to the achievement of the performer", which is an acknowledgement of point-of-view writing).
297:, were written before and in the stead of information on the original and more notable versions of the song, which were instead given a passing mention. Attempts to merge the articles are met with resistance, and attempts to nominate them on AfD in order to get a consensus result in the editors in question banding together to add "keep" votes, sometimes without valid reasoning for the articles' retention in the encyclopedia (reasons offered have included "it's part of Mariah Carey's official discography" and the threat of "you
359:. Beautifulstranger became angry upon being informed by several editors that his edits were against policy (reverting infobox colors, which are set to follow a certain scheme based upon the type of album being covered, to his own colors, and writing POV articles on Madonna songs), and quit the Knowledge (XXG) as a result. The articles are being cleaned up, at the hands of
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the same time, I don't think that the authors and defenders of the articles have made a case for inclusion, or for retention of their full length, but have simply been reverting. I see a disregard for discussion and so for the consensus process by a few editors who want to preserve the large amount of material that appears to be fancruft.
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705:- similar to the above. OmegaWikipedia reverts attempts made to introduce a single infobox to the article, trim a ten paragraph long section describing two live performances of the song, remove U.S.-centric POV, fan-gush, unsourced weasel terms and speculation, correct spelling, grammar, wikilinks etc.
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Knowledge (XXG) can and should provide as much information as is relevant to a subject. If enough information can be written about a subject, then it is worthy of an article. However, the quality is most important in my view, and the focus should not be on the notability of an article's subject, but
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Create a special cleanup project for all of the articles that still have issues. These articles should be labeled with a custom template, which is to be removed after the issues within them (POV writing, facts that need referencing, long discussions--more than two paragraph--of chart performance, any
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contain extended discussions about why a song did or did not succeed on a specific chart. At times these analyses venture into mild cases of point of view writing: speculation, judgment of song performance, etc., as far as referring to songs as "relative flops", "great successes", and the like. While
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is 45 kilobytes of information that could easily be trimmed down to a more concise length. There is no question to be posed here; the articles simply need to be reduced in length. The article on Carey herself will likely surpass the 32 K limit, but as long as the information included is concise, that
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No one is certainly begrudging coverage of these artists in the
Knowledge (XXG), but that coverage has to be consistent with the coverage throughout the rest of the Knowledge (XXG), needs to follow the Manual of Style, and does not need to resort to detailed analyses of statistical information (which
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I have not researched the details. I see three main issues. The first is an issue of the amount of material. That is basically a sort of inclusionist-deletionist dispute. As a moderate inclusionist, I can see the philosophical argument in favor of providing more information rather than less. At
69:, although not entirely restricted to articles relating to these persons. As such, it is not a direct call for analysis on any one user's edits, but for those of an entire group as a whole, and a call for improvement/dispute resolution / guideline consensus in reference to the articles in question.
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Merge any and all articles about different recordings of the same composition to one article. In the case where a song has several notable versions and the main article is already long *this primarily would only apply to covers of national anthems, Christmas songs, and the like), make a page called
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Also neccessary are consistant standards for infobox formatting (and length). Currently, all manner of different infoboxes are used, with incosistency in formatting and content provided. It would probably be best to make a compromised template for infoboxes on singles (as there is one for albums),
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One side maintains that not all songs, not even all singles, are inherently notable enough for their own articles (which is shown when the articles consist almost completely of catalogue information--that is, the persons involved, the method and dates of release, and the level of success of the
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The second issue is an issue of standards. Manual of Style edits by
FuriousFreddy and Mel Etitis have been systematically reverted and ignored. If the authors and defenders of the articles think that the standards should be revised, they should use the policy process rather than ignoring the
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In addition, although the previously established precedent was to have one article per song, these persons began creating separate articles for covers of songs, and then protested the merging of both articles into one. This results in a multitude of articles on a singular pop song, which is
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keep this article"). While notable covers of songs are certainly worth mentioning, separate articles for covers of songs do not seem necessary, and often could be very easily merged with another article. Note that this issue is currently directly in dispute with the separate article on
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dedicated himself to attempting to format and clean up the articles' grammar, capitalization, and wording, only to have one of the persons in question go back and revert them repeatedly. For such reasons, both parties and others have been blocked several times for violating the 3RR.
678:- OmegaWikipedia insisted upon adding unverified and unfactual information to article on music genre, including an entire paragraph dedicated to summarizing the careers of Mariah Carey and Jennifer Lopez. Only through moderator assistance was a sense of credibility restored.
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In general, I would prefer to see more material in
Knowledge (XXG), even if much of it is trivia. After all, one of the virtues of encyclopedias is to be repositories of interesting trivia. However, I think that the underlying issue is proprietary interest in articles.
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Several of these articles also contain original research/point-of-view synopses of the songs themselves and/or their music videos, written in language that reads less like an encyclopedia article and more like a fan site. Examples include the descriptions of the videos for
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Does the
Knowledge (XXG) require separate articles on different recordings of the same composition? If it does, should every major hit version of "The Star-Spangled Banner" and "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" be given Knowledge (XXG) articles, or just those of certain
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In what level of detail should a song's sales and airplay performance/charting statistics be covered? Should there be an upper limit? Is it necessary to list positions for all
Billboard charts on which a song appears, or should there be a limit on the number of charts
944:: several of these editors have, as shown above, repeatedly reverted changes by certain editors to their preferred versions of the articles. When articles are listed on AfD, they band together to add "keep" votes to the AfD tally. Winnermario explicitly stated that
908:: although encyclopedic articles can be written on most of the persons, songs, and albums in question, many of the articles contain subjective terms, slang, a poit-of-view towards (or against) the performer in question, or show the point of view of the writer.
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Many, nearly all, of the articles on singles by Mariah Carey, Christina
Aguilera, and others include lengthy discussions of chart performance, with extended chart listings and extended remix listings (marked as "official" without any source). For example,
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is, at 61 kilobytes, nearly twice the recommended article length, and loaded with excessive trivia, quotes, and other information that needs to be summarized and rewritten. I have begun work in several sections of the article. Similarly, the article on
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should not be a problem. However, it does not appear that an article on an album that was released less than a year ago needs a
Knowledge (XXG) article of this length. On a related note, separate articles exist for several characters from the film
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Have administrators activly monitor edits to these pages to make sure that policies or guidelines are not violated. If problems with any particular user persist, then that user should be dealt with on a personal basis (up to and including
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single--or of analyses of chart performance for songs whose chart performance was not peculiar or unusual enough to warrant extended coverage, of chart position tables, or of remix lists. This issue has already begun discussion at
170:, and some work has been done on trying to bring it up to a higher standard of quality. Some work has been done on some of the Mariah Carey singles articles, but the albums articles are still in poor conditions. The article on the
839:. With the exception of "The Christmas Song" and "Pump It", all resulted in "no consensus" (default keep) partly due to the same aforementioned group of editors voting "keep" on all of them, often without justifying their vote.
374:. I myself know little in-depth information on these disputes, although I have seen instances where one or more of the editors in question will revert any changes by Mel Eitits that they contested, leading to edit/revert wars.
263:, at which an attempt to cleanup such writing was reverted. Instead of presenting clear, professional descriptions of the videos, such articles instead delve into colloquial writing and a shot-by-shot description of the video.
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As has been suggested several times, the Mariah Carey articles as they stand now can be moved to a Mariah Carey fan Wiki at WikiCities, so that persons who wrote them can have their work preserved in proper context.
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1321:. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.
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Winnermario declared the article "her baby", and proceeded to inform Mel Etitis that he should leave the article alone and allow her to fix it up, essentially telling him that he was "not welcome" at "her"
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I see that this RfC was posted about two weeks ago and there has been no response. Have the endorsers placed proper notice on the talk pages of the editors who are charged with conduct violations?
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While much of the information is indeed helpful, the articles tend towards biased and POV editing, and then reverting/protesting when anyone else tries to fix their work. Several editors, among them
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The third issue is an issue of proprietary interest in articles. This may be the real reason why the authors of the articles in question are stubborn and revert them rather than discussing them.
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920:. At times, these articles contain unverified speculation. Some of the editors in question have at times insisted upon adding innacurate information to articles (for example, what hapened with the
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289:, were written as detailed separate articles, instead of merging and incorporating data into one article or discussing song covers on a relevant album article. Some of them, including
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629:(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)
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722:. Comments of his on the relevant talk page include "Your edit has bastardized the chart performance section" and "EXCUSE ME?! Can you not read?". The dispute was listed at
960:: many of the articles' text venture into speculation on why certain events happened, on goings-on in songs and music videos, on why a song was or was not a hit, and more.
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coverage of minor component charts--Hot 100 Airplay, Hot 100 sales, etc., long lists of "official" remixes and versions, etc.) have been removed and cleaned up.
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and myself. I am not filing this RfC so that the users in question will quit the
Knowledge (XXG); there simply needs to be order brought to this whole issue.
335:, although little new discussion has occurred as of recent. This discussion needs to be carried out and followed through to establish clearly defined policy.
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be kept", with no other reasoning than that. This user has also displayed, at several times, unapologetic incivility towards other users (see her comments at
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The "respondents" were notified of this RfC five days ago and have not responded. I have no reason to think that they are trying to resolve this dispute.
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unnecessary. This established a dangerous precedent among other inexperienced editors, and now we have separate articles for two versions each of "
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401:) has already put in a request to start such a Wiki there. A pop music fan wiki in general should also be started for the rest of the articles.
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article or related articles on her songs or those of other pop artists. Such articles were therefore filled with biased POV writing. Admin
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contains entries for twenty charts in the United States alone (some of which are component charts used to calculate the larger ones),
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most of the edits (including basic spelling and grammar fixes), declares "the article is fine", and says "dont ruin the article".
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rather than allowing broad variations in infobox use. *Some of these articles do not conform to the standards set at
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is then redundantly reprinted in tables) for content. This material can be written about in an encyclopedic manner.
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article); the information is proven to be innacurate when the user cannot provide reliable references to use.
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coverage of chart performance is important, many of these articles, including the "Sweetheart" article and
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This is a request for comment covering the edits of several users and a multitude of articles based upon
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Establish clear, defined, and agreed policies and guidelines for artisles on musicians and their works.
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Several separate articles have been written on covers of songs. Some of these articles, such as
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to reinclude speculation, original research, point of view, and unencyclopediaic writing:
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These are the primary persons whose behavior, edits, and/or contributions are in dispute:
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Infobox formatting and article formatting; Manual of Style/scholarly writing conforming
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signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to
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All discussion belongs at the bottom of this page. Please do not edit this section.
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how important must a song be to warrant having a
Knowledge (XXG) article about it?
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Extreme inciviilty, homophobic attacks, over a disagreement in chart placements:
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The
Christmas Song (Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire) (Christina Aguilera song)
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Do You Know Where You're Going To? (Theme from Mahogany) (Mariah Carey recording)
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being a minor work, all of its characters are to be covered in the main article.
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Do You Know Where You're Going To? (Theme from Mahogany) (Mariah Carey song)
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Music/Notability and Music Guidelines/Songs
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There was a very brief issue with the articles relating to the entertainer
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Amount of information/trivia included; chart performance analyses, synopses
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Responding personal attacks from user whose talk page had been vandalised
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done for no other reason but to keep the article at his preferred version.
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was to be " baby", and that she wanted Mel Etitis out of "her" article.
914:: Knowledge (XXG) is not an indiscriminate collection of information
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Knowledge (XXG):Don't disrupt Knowledge (XXG) to illustrate a point
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also have similar legnth issues and repeated reverting/POV issues.
976:: relating to OmegaWikipedia's attempts to edit the guidelines at
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Charmbracelet World Tour: An Intimate Evening With Mariah Carey
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See also Mel Etitis' discussion and links he has provided at
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Applicable policies towards article content and user conduct
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Editors involved with the issue from the other side include
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album alone is 45 kilobytes, and the article on the single "
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There have also been issues with the guidelines set by the
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rather on the quality of the writing contained within it.
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Seperate articles on different recordings of the same song
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Editors who endorse this outside view should sign below:
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These Boots Are Made for Walkin' (Jessica Simpson single)
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Music/Tables for charts
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at OmegaWikipedia's own will, undoing Mel Etitis' work.
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There is also an issue of song notability, as far as
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Santa Claus Is Comin' to Town (Mariah Carey single)
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805:Santa Claus Is Comin' to Town (Mariah Carey song)
1070:Knowledge (XXG): Requests for comment/Mel Etitis
793:The Star Spangled Banner (Whitney Houston song)
310:. A similar issue exists with the articles for
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670:Category:Billboard Hot 100 number one singles
666:Category:Billboard Hot 100 number-one singles
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912:Knowledge (XXG):What Knowledge (XXG) is not
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906:Knowledge (XXG):Neutral point of view
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809:Joy to the World (Mariah Carey song)
18:Knowledge (XXG):Requests for comment
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115:The Star-Spangled Banner
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689:Talk:We Belong Together
607:Category:Britney Spears
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771:Can't Let Go
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1256:standards.
1211:Monicasdude
946:Cool (song)
456:Winnermario
361:User:Jkelly
273:performers?
135:Winnermario
37:Description
1310:Discussion
1162:Μελ Ετητης
1157:Mel Etitis
538:Mel Etitis
424:blocking).
106:Mel Etitis
1301:Terrafire
1234:Responses
43:pop music
1183:say what
1128:Volatile
685:article.
651:original
590:contribs
576:contribs
562:contribs
552:Volatile
548:contribs
534:contribs
514:contribs
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482:contribs
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450:contribs
399:contribs
378:Proposal
231:covered?
145:contribs
98:contribs
84:contribs
936:Glitter
932:Glitter
813:Pump It
697:reverts
655:cleanup
472:Anittas
353:Madonna
210:Glitter
1288:Jacqui
1279:Jkelly
1136:Calton
1120:Jkelly
785:WP:AFD
285:, and
86:) and
1203:Qirex
1175:sleep
566:Hoary
16:<
1173:keep
1140:Talk
1027:and
966:and
817:Sylk
617:and
584:talk
570:talk
556:talk
542:talk
528:talk
508:talk
492:talk
476:talk
460:talk
444:talk
393:talk
314:and
306:and
299:will
293:and
259:and
242:and
217:and
155:and
149:will
139:talk
121:", "
117:", "
92:talk
78:talk
1315:All
1177:ing
1006:and
668:to
578:),
564:),
550:),
536:),
416:or
131:AfD
1155:--
1148:eo
1138:|
1076:--
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