1801:. (a) This box is far smaller and less obtrusive than the War on Terrorism template, and it serves a different purpose. (b) I think the attacks in Indonesia and Iraq are very much related as part of a larger set of 21st century Islamic terrorist attacks. Just because they're not 100% directly attributed to al-Qaeda doesnt mean they're not relevant or related. In any case, if you really don't like those there, you can remove them without deleting the entire template. (c) The London and Madrid attacks which you said were absent have been added.
2553:: Nothing is wrong with this template. This template provides a nice way to organize attacks by Al-Qaqeda. If there are issues with the template itself, please discuss them separately on its Talk page, but dont nominate it for deletion just becuase of some other reason. And there's a link to the Madrid Bombings now. It seems you have an issue with Al-Qaeda gettinbg more exposure. The fact is that this template is organizing Al-Qaeda related articles - this is seperate to and in addition to the War on Terrorism template.--
2672:
case here. If you are now saying "Look, the links are gone now" - well, if the links were the problem, why did you not raise this issue on the Talk page of the template? I dont see how its oversimplification. The template is simply giving links to different al-Q attacks at various locations. Anyone can see that. Anyway, this is going to be a "no consensus" probably. Please focus on improving the template later if you have issues with it. Read the last line from
Blackfalcon above, its worth repeating: "
1917:. In response to your criticms. First, the "links with" section simply can and should be be removed (it implies links between al-Qaeda and the governments of Iraq, Indonesia, and Russia (or the regional Chechen government) that do not exist or between al-Qaeda and other distinct terrorist groups). Second, the Madrid and London bombings may be justifiably excluded as they were not perpetrated by al-Qaeda itself, but al-Qaeda inspired groups. Third, the
2599:
2) Is it wrong to make a template that organizes these attacks into a small box? I dont think so and therefore, its not wrong for this template to exist. The name of the countries are not there to give the impression that those countries have something to do with the attacks - it is becuase they were a victim of the attacks. You should have taken this issue on the Talk page of the template, instead you nominated it for deletion. --
1478:. I find the opinion expressed in this template rather unfortunate (as the removal of all fair-use images would reduce the quality of the encyclopedia), but I don't think it's particularly disruptive. It expresses an opinion on a matter, but does not call for disruption by saying "Removes all fair use images!" However, as noted above, it belongs in userpace. --
2182:(no vote): In principle, there is a useful idea behind the template, but there is really no consensus as to how cohesive Al Qaeda is or to what degree it is involved in each incident. "Campaign" certainly seems like too strong a word. The 'War on Terror' is a US political slogan which is not directly related to terrorism.
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almost any country in the world. This template seems to define a sharp border for countries with more and countries with (you might think) no foreign relations with
Germany? (Not to mention: lining them up like i dont know what! I can t see that anything than deleting this template can resolve this issue.
2671:
Indon, every article for that matter is prone to POV. As
Blackfalcon said above that this is not the reason to delete something becuase its prone to POV issues. If your deletion nomincation was appropriate, it should not be effected by whether some links are deleted from it or not but this is not the
2598:
Indon, as I said: this doesnt mean the template should be deleted. If you think there's an issue with the template, it should be fixed, not deleted. I saw the talk page now, yes, so? Those links were taken out now. Answer this question: 1) Are there a group of attacks done by the Al-Q? Yes there are.
2282:
This is in the Al-Q article(thats how I found it), its in excusable for it be over looked, if I had thrown PAL343 in 1994 then maybe being over looked would be reasonable. This is just another example of why the box has and will continue to have POV problems that cant be resloved hence its reason for
1755:
Chechnya/Russia links to an article on war crimes and terrorism in the second
Chechnyian war. The Indonesian link to terrorism in indonesia has a false attribution of all JI activities to Al-Q yet JI formed 20 years before Al-Q, The Iraq link is to a list events done specifically by AL-Q which should
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How can the foreign relations of a country be pindowned to a handful of nations? Especially when the country in questions has numerous direct neighbours, a touching history with even more countries and these days bilateral aggreements from culture, politics and trade to legal and social issues with
2515:
Petercorless, I'm not sure if your comment was made in response to me, but I will reply just to be sure. I certainly agree that the infobox should appear on each of the articles on the respective terrorist attacks. My point was that the "Links with" section is not necessary in this infobox, whose
2612:
Wohoo, slow down. Perhaps because you are late on this discussion that you see the current state of the template is different than when I nominated for deletion. I'll answer your questions: (1). You have answered it, why did you ask me? (2) It's wrong. It's oversimplification of a complex event in
1943:: THe 'links with' section is in my opinion the worst part. Perhaps there can at least be some agreement on its removal or major modification. I made an attempt to change for example 'Indonesia' to 'in Indonesia' but it was changed back almost immediately. Perhaps another suggestion could be made.
1850:
its hard to say which attacks are al-Qaeda related and which aren't. To fix this problem people are suggesting renaming the templates to
Islamist terror attacks. This is a very slippery slope, since Islamist attacks overlap with regional conflicts such as the Chechen wars, Arab-Israeli conflicts,
2029:
I don't have any history/contacts/disputes with editors in question, so no need to go for dispute resolutions. I just want to show you that this small box is highly prone to POV issue. If you believe the presentation is not good enough, then please improve it to avoid false accusations and false
1599:
I renominate again this template for deletion after my withdrawal due to several template nominations at once. Here again, I state that the template is really prone to POV issue (criterion #4) because of oversimplification fitted in the small box. It cannot be solved by a simple edit as has been
2641:
Indon, I agree that the "Links with" section and the 6 unrelated attacks should not be on the template. But that the template is "prone to POV issues" is not a reason to delete it, but rather one that requires it be monitored. I have added the template to my watchlist, intend to remove the 6
2369:
Now you're back to the same problem again. By puting "links to", "links with", "see also", "see more", "further", or anything to suggest readers to click unrelated or even worst that you said unproven terrorist attack or other
Islamist attacks (heck I hate that!), it is a false association and
2355:
Agreed. If the template remains, we need to have links to only attacks where there are provable Al Qaeda associations. However, there might be an "Also see" for other unproven terrorist attacks, or other
Islamist attacks. Though that is something to be discussed more in the talk page for the
2577:
section has been removed. However the false association problem is still there in the template, as has been kindly asked by BlackFalcon in the template talk page (6 links have no relationships with Al-Q!). Again, POV is one of the TfD criteria, the only reason I took this template into TfD
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of
Indonesia, for instance. Secondly, it is a template on al-Qaeda terrorist attacks, not the al-Qaeda organization itself. Links between terror groups are relevant to templates about such groups, but not to templates about the attacks perpetrated by such groups. --
2158:
read again the nomination. The problem is not simply fixing it. Somebody has tried to fix the POV issue, alas it has been reverted to the POV one. Deleting it is much better because there is already much better presentation template to avoid POV and false association. β
1771:. Oversimplification and dumbing-down of connections between sometimes unrelated attacks. To group them all as Al-Qaeda instigated and part of the 'Al-Qaeda terror campaign' is at least misleading the reader. From my reading of it, there is no evidence at stage that
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the very small box. It's prone to POV issues. It can contain false association because of the small tiny box. It's too bad that you cannot see the previous version of this template when there is the "Links with" section and it gives a false impression to a reader of
1865:
I oppose the existence of any template titled "Islamist terrorist attacks", "Christian terrorist attacks", or "Buddhist terrorist attacks". This ascribes religious motives to terrorist attacks, where such an assumption can usually not be substantiated. --
2427:
Fails the closure test, effectively. There is theoretically no end to the growth of this userbox, and the links of some of the attacks to the "Al-Qaeda terror campaign" as opposed to local or other causes of terrorism means there are elements that may fail
2916:
Why is China mentioned but not Italy? Or the
Netherlands? The average author (not to mention readers) dont understand that you can modify a template. Just for the sake of reaching articles the template is not the right medium as it suggests a FIXED group!
2505:
I respectfully disagree. This would be an infobox on the page of each of the pages mentioned, so that one could follow the progression of events from incident to incident. It is inert as a navigation aid if it only appears on the AQ page itself.
2929:. The nomination is based on the fallacious reasoning that the template is unexpandable, or that even if it is that nobody knows how. Deleting a valid navigational box based on people being ignorant of how to get to template pages is absurd. --
1979:
as how POV the editor is and how POV the template can be. I would've stop my nomination after my withdrawal if the editor didn't insist his POV section. Thus, I believe deleting is better and use the other more better presentation template. β
2526:
was created, a "Links with" section would be relevant, but I don't think it's necessary in a campaignbox (especially given that it can be misinterpreted and is itself the subject of controversy). I hope this clarifies my comment. Cheers,
2872:- If one set of bilateral relations are important enough to Germany's history, there will be an article made for it. Since there are evidently several of these articles, I see no harm in a navbox. If there is enough info on, say
2642:
unrelated attacks in a few days unless valid objections are raised, and will continue to monitor it. However, the template provides a timeline of major al-Qaeda attacks and aids in navigation between articles on such attacks. --
2310:, THe creator has now added Philippines. That links section is the worst. Can we at least first get agreement to modify or remove that section. POV guilt by association. Serious dumbing down of complex and uncertain issues.
2111:
It is chronological in that it begins at the earliest attack and the rest are serially listed in chronological order. It is not explicitly or verbosely listing the dates. This is common for milhist infoboxes for campaigns.
2487:
and removed the "links with" section. In addition to being highly controversial, it seems to imply that al-Qaeda has links with those governments. Also, it is not necessary to have in an infobox that lists al-Qaeda
2687:
Believe me, if there is no criterion #4 (POV issue) of TfD, I didn't want to nominate this here again. Read the last line of TfD criteria above, its worth repeating: The template isn't a
Neutral Point of View (NPOV)
1490:; I'll take it as the creator. Of course I disagree with Black Falcon, since I believe the removal of all fair-use images could only improve the quality of the encyclopedia, as well as increasing its credibility. β
1851:
Islamic-Christian conflicts in Indonesia, etc. Are we going to include each of the 100's of Palestinian suicide bombings? Trying to distill all these subtilities down into these little infoboxs is impossible. (
2395:: This ridiculous infobox not only tries to assert many attacks are al-Qaeda without any evidence, it also tries to make a connection with other unrelated attacks in different regions around the world. (
1635:
The selection of three countries is really POV. If the template editor is really honest about the link, why is there no link to countries like Spain (Madrid bombing), to England (London bombings), etc.?
2892:. As more articles on "Germany-X relations" are created, they will be added to this template. I don't quite understand what the problem is with how they're lined up: it's alphabetical. --
1894:- I didn't say that London and Madrid attacks are absent, but the link to terrorism in England and terorism in Spain are absent, and those are just examples of how POV the template can be. β
2445:
Note: that is the case with many infoboxes on our military history pages, considering many conflicts are still ongoing. It does not mean we need to not put infoboxes on those pages. --
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1959:- I believe in editing to improve content, not deleting useful navigational elements. If there are changes, they should be made to the template. Don't make hasty TfD requests. --
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If this template serves as a navigational template, then there is already a much better template for this specific issue with a better description to avoid false association:
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2000:
If you indeed believe the editor to be POV (I've not checked the edit history so as not to bias my comment; thus I don't know whom we're writing about) and thus violating
1554:. Please remember that POV can often be re-written and thus should only be a reason for deletion in extreme cases. Changes made during discussion illustrate this I think.
2091:
No, it's not the chronological list (where is the date?), but your POV section below and worst now you have added Phillipines into a country related with Al-Q attacks. β
1756:
be part of this box. The use of country names is also implying that these countries are the same as Afghanistan, why isnt there any links to events in Afghanistan.
2432:. I agree with others regarding the countries at the bottom, although that isn't in and of itself a reason for deletion (should be cleaned up if kept though)
2322:. I fully support the removal of the "Links with" section. Firstly, it's unexplained and can be misconstrued as implying that al-Qaeda has links with the
1574:
2266:
Thanks. In explanation, the first WTC attack was committed before most people ever heard the term Al Qaeda. However, it is now mentioned. Good catch. --
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I'm not so sure that it's such a good idea to have users campaign against existing policies or guidelines on their userpage. It sounds rather divisive.
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2621:(Look carefully at the presentation of the country name and the link to it, tell me if there is a relation of either two to the bombing???). β
2569:-- Matt57, please read again the nomination before you gave this opinion against me. I don't care about Al-Q attacks, as long as this template
1779:
were A-Q. And as for describing the Saudi bombings as '1st Khobar' and '2nd Khobar' presumably for compactness is just ghastly. And what has
1722:
has served the purpose you mentioned much better, and most of the link there are Al-Q attacks. So I think there's no need to restructured. β
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2341:: if kept, this template needs to be ruthlessly trimmed of anything that doesn't actually have material supporting a connection to al-Qaeda
2210:
read again the nomination notes. It's not the Al-Q attacks are in question, but the POV issue it brings and with the worst Links section. β
2760:, which was an attack on a military target (therefore not terrorism). Listing it under "terror campaign" is either incorrect or POV. --
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template, though well-structured, uses a highly controversial and US-centric title. It is not a good replacement for this template. --
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or is intended to be disruptive. Expressing an opinion on Knowledge (XXG) policy seems legitimate, but it belongs in userspace. β
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Note to Petercorless, read again the nomination that there is no bearing to other campaignboxes or "your" military infoboxes. β
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for consensus established at previous discussions and the reasons that continue to be true. Could be speedily deleted under
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It appears to just be a spoof of the one displayed half way down the main Page, there seems no need for a duplicate.
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the template provides a timeline of major al-Qaeda attacks and aids in navigation between articles on such attacks.
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2888:. This template aids in navigating between articles on Germany's relations with another country,
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associations, and make sure that it won't happen again. Otherwise, it is better to be deleted. β
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below.
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1882:: Agreed - and it gets back to the 'slippery slope' User:Caniago is talking about.
2573:. You see the template now that has been boldly modified by BlackFalcon in which
2016:. The deletion of the template itself, if it can be fixed, is not necessary. --
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nothing is wrong with this template. It serves a very legitiment purpose.--
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It's a list of the major notable attacks of Al Qaeda and it should be kept.
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I am sure that those who frequent TFD remember vividly such discussions as
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an impression that the countries listed there have relation to the attack.
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is admittedly A-Q related but some isn't - ie independence struggles. β
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This is useless - it is just a replica of the one on the main page. --
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Why do you think the template cannot be edited to make it less POV? --
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This template provides a good way to show attacks by Al-Qaqeda. --
303:. Therefore, I am pleased to present more templates deprecated by
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per nom and precedent established by previous TfD discussions. β
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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It seems you have an issue with Al-Qaeda gettinbg more exposure.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
2492:. If an infobox on the al-Qaeda organisation is created, it
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purpose is to provide a chronology of such attacks. If a
2876:, someone can make an article and add to this template. β
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Right. Sorry about that. A mere oversight, I assure you.
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be relevant there, but this is not that infobox. --
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It's just a chronological list of notable attacks --
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2483:. I favour keeping the template overall, but was
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2370:clearly proves how POV this template can be. β
2233:If its a list of notiable Al-Q attacks why is
257:More templates deprecated by S-rail and S-line
2756:This is highly POV. As an example, includes
2235:World_Trade_Center#Bombing_of_February_,_1993
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2408:as with previous points (not answered) re
154:works fine there and is more up to date.
1781:Second Chechen War crimes and terrorism
2777:but reword "terror campaign" for NPOV.
18:Knowledge (XXG):Templates for deletion
1566:Template:Campaignbox al-Qaeda attacks
1527:Template:Campaignbox al-Qaeda attacks
142:Main Page alternative (Italian-style)
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1817:A better term is I can suggest is '
1552:no consensus, leaning towards keep
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2653:Thank you, I value your help. β
2571:does not give false association
107:Template:Wikipediasisteritalian
68:Template:Wikipediasisteritalian
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1:
2481:Comment: "Links with" removed
2356:template. Not part of TfD. --
929:Template:Capitol Corridor box
317:Template:Start Intermodal box
37:
2004:, you may take the issue to
1462:- I don't think it violates
895:Template:Capitol Corridor IM
691:Template:BART Orange line IM
2890:for which an article exists
1031:Template:MuniMetro six line
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2615:2004 Madrid train bombings
1783:got to do with A-Q? Some
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419:Template:BART Blue-IM line
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2291:00:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
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1932:17:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
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1830:16:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
1806:16:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
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1748:15:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
1734:15:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
1707:15:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
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1675:15:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
1615:False association of the
1559:01:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
1502:17:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
1483:17:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
1471:17:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
1454:17:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
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1350:22:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
1326:21:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
1298:17:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
1284:21:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
1133:Template:VTALR Green Line
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233:04:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
221:18:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
200:04:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
185:22:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
164:18:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
100:01:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
2949:Please do not modify it.
2818:Please do not modify it.
2792:Please do not modify it.
1538:Please do not modify it.
1512:Please do not modify it.
1386:Please do not modify it.
1360:Please do not modify it.
1099:Template:VTALR Blue Line
1065:Template:Start VTALR box
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267:Please do not modify it.
243:Please do not modify it.
79:Please do not modify it.
1821:' terror attacks, not '
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2410:terrorism in indonesia
1785:Terrorism in Indonesia
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2521:Organisation al-Qaeda
2343:in the article itself
1683:- as the nominator β
1611:. More specifically:
1270:comment was added by
2253:I have added it. --
1658:other campaign boxes
1201:Template:VTALR Line
144:, and the standard
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2894:Black Falcon
2889:
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2869:
2861:72.144.218.5
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2817:
2814:
2791:
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2644:Black Falcon
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2508:Petercorless
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2010:WP:Mediation
1975:please read
1972:
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92:
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2837:The ikiroid
2779:Proabivouac
2762:ChrisRuvolo
1977:the history
1617:Links with:
1408:The ikiroid
1400:userfy per
1310:PSUMark2006
194:John Reaves
45:February 28
2904:- Concur.
2324:government
2283:deletion.
2184:Peter Grey
1777:2006 Dahab
1773:Sinai 2004
1605:reversions
1304:Delete all
281:delete all
2906:LordAmeth
2849:Advise me
2734:Sefringle
2619:Indonesia
2237:ommited?
2012:, and/or
1838:LordAmeth
1803:LordAmeth
1624:terrorist
1420:Advise me
1335:WP:CSD#G6
2156:Comment:
2089:Comment:
1973:Comment:
1819:Islamist
1815:Comment:
1789:Moondyne
1630:articles
1464:WP:CIVIL
1321:contribs
1280:contribs
1268:unsigned
301:this one
297:this one
293:this one
20: |
2914:Comment
2543:Merbabu
2539:Comment
2490:attacks
2397:Caniago
2339:Comment
2320:Support
2312:Merbabu
2308:Comment
2280:Comment
2231:Comment
2208:Comment
2196:Top Gun
2180:Comment
2002:WP:NPOV
1945:Merbabu
1941:Comment
1880:Comment
1853:Caniago
1848:Comment
1827:Merbabu
1823:Islamic
1745:Merbabu
1741:Delete:
1607:to the
1602:several
1579:history
1292:Zzyzx11
1272:Zzyzx11
1248:history
1214:history
1180:history
1146:history
1112:history
1078:history
1044:history
1010:history
976:history
942:history
908:history
874:history
840:history
806:history
772:history
738:history
704:history
670:history
636:history
602:history
568:history
534:history
500:history
466:history
432:history
398:history
364:history
330:history
156:the wub
120:history
62:March 1
50:March 2
2931:tjstrf
2754:Delete
2746:Medule
2710:Matt57
2678:Matt57
2601:Matt57
2555:Matt57
2430:WP:ATT
2425:Delete
2406:Delete
2393:Delete
2006:WP:RFC
1769:Delete
1753:Delete
1700:Delete
1681:Delete
1627:attack
1488:Userfy
1476:Userfy
1460:Userfy
1402:WP:GUS
1331:Delete
1295:(Talk)
299:, and
226:Delete
216:addict
205:Delete
197:(talk)
190:Delete
170:Delete
93:delete
2878:Dgies
2699:reply
2694:Indon
2692:); β
2660:reply
2655:Indon
2628:reply
2623:Indon
2585:reply
2580:Indon
2494:would
2465:reply
2460:Indon
2377:reply
2372:Indon
2288:garra
2242:garra
2217:reply
2212:Indon
2166:reply
2161:Indon
2128:Keep.
2098:reply
2093:Indon
2037:reply
2032:Indon
1987:reply
1982:Indon
1901:reply
1896:Indon
1761:garra
1729:reply
1724:Indon
1690:reply
1685:Indon
1670:reply
1665:Indon
1587:watch
1583:links
1468:Dgies
1433:: -->
1343:notes
1340:Grace
1256:watch
1252:links
1222:watch
1218:links
1188:watch
1184:links
1154:watch
1150:links
1120:watch
1116:links
1086:watch
1082:links
1052:watch
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1018:watch
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980:links
950:watch
946:links
916:watch
912:links
882:watch
878:links
848:watch
844:links
814:watch
810:links
780:watch
776:links
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742:links
712:watch
708:links
678:watch
674:links
644:watch
640:links
610:watch
606:links
576:watch
572:links
542:watch
538:links
508:watch
504:links
474:watch
470:links
440:watch
436:links
406:watch
402:links
372:watch
368:links
338:watch
334:links
230:Wenli
211:Telly
178:notes
175:Grace
128:watch
124:links
53:: -->
16:<
2935:talk
2927:Keep
2902:Keep
2886:Keep
2870:Keep
2845:desk
2841:talk
2832:keep
2775:Keep
2742:Keep
2730:Keep
2702:) β
2676:" --
2663:) β
2631:) β
2588:) β
2551:Keep
2485:bold
2468:) β
2417:Suro
2414:Satu
2380:) β
2285:Gnan
2239:Gnan
2220:) β
2192:Keep
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2141:talk
2101:) β
2055:Keep
2040:) β
1990:) β
1957:Keep
1915:Keep
1904:) β
1799:Keep
1775:and
1758:Gnan
1732:) β
1704:Smee
1693:) β
1673:) β
1663:--β
1591:logs
1575:talk
1571:edit
1449:<
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322:edit
307:and
160:"?!"
132:logs
116:talk
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