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contentious area controlled by a large group of heavily biased partisans. I have no chance of making a dent in the worldview they are promoting full time. I believe that this one-sided domination of the issue and lack of access to objective information about the
Mideast in almost all US media contributes to Americans remaining largely uninformed and misinformed about Mideast issues - and this is why people bewilderingly asked, "Why do they hate us?" when the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated. Thanks to the open source records here on Knowledge, we can actually trace the edits and watch this insidious process of censorship and information manipulation as it occurs. I enjoy writing Wiki articles in general and I am quite capable of making NPOV edits to Mideast articles despite my strong convictions. Even Jayjg has admitted this (although he automatically reverts them anyway about 90% of the time). I understand Mideast history and the current controversies from all sides. I am not trying to push a simplistic one-sided POV but I also dislike seeing injustice and unfairness and I think Knowledge's pages about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are very biased and unfair.
726:
Jewish friends, and was dating one for a few years) that it is very difficult for even very bright people to *see* the other side. I can see that you and Jayjg both seem, to varying degrees, to be unable to see the other side, nor accept POV. Please try harder, and listen to what people are telling you -- there are people on here who put effort into being very fair, and they can help you both in battling people who arn't, and in helping you learn to be so. --
431:. That's actually a pretty good idea (as long as it is done in an NPOV way, i.e. referring to it in the present-day politics and media context, minimizing the disambiguation entry and pointing down into that article, where a more elaborate description, along with the "Occupied territories"/"disputed territories" term dispute is already given). Once you do it, you'll find yourself that a delete or a redirect of the
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to whatever other article on the topic or delete"), in the end we'll have trouble reaching formal consensus again, and the fork will remain (to the delight of the forking minority! (because technically they might not be in a significant minority if you consider all the various options to redirect as a separate vote) May I thus suggest to expand your vote to "Delete or
Redirect"?
427:. I agree that in the modern day world when someone reads "Occupied territories" as a media term, there's an overwhelming chance that it's Israel whose occupation is implied. If I understand correctly your statement on that article being "neutered", you feel that a disambiguation type entry stating that should be placed near the top of the
1084:- either way Knowledge is POV in that it is taking a side in the conflict and saying which side has rights to the land. Third, this article really doesn't have very much in it, in fact most of the article is just a list of links to other articles. Why not put this list of links in an article with at least a neutral title, like
725:
people on
Knowledge who admit that the entire reason they're there is to "present the Israeli perspective", or "present the Arab perspective", or similar, because when they take that tack, they almost never understand NPOV. People care so deeply about these issues (and I should know -- I have lots of
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existing. If this were the 1st article on the topic, you would have enjoyed much stronger support, although even then the title is POV (just hold your breath and imagine somebody else starting a new article now, "Disputed
Territories under Israeli control" – wouldn't you try to VfD it ASAP? Mind you,
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I am very dissatisfied as well. I believe that the fray of those younger articles written by those who proved unable to reach a consensus using the regular
Knowledge means – either because of a lack of patience or because of a lack of arguments to work towards an NPOV – should really belong in one's
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as a redirect (BTW, even that my vote was "Redirect and protect" there, I believe that you making a good admin decision there, and, at least in interpreting my vote, you were 100% correct)? Unless the voters with the anti-POV-fork feelings unite and cast an accomodating vote each (such as "redirect
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I agree with the VfD nomination annotation completely, and I doubt the sincerity in creating an NPOV encyclopaedia of anyone trying to work on this article while the other two exist. To
Alberuni: before going and labeling others (Jayjg and those who vote delete) and their actions and trying to make
733:
Thanks for your note. You are right. I know that my efforts won't make any difference on
Knowledge's pro-Israeli bias because the pro-Israeli perspective is well-entrenched and dominates this media outlet, just like most others in the US. I am only one person trying to bring a few NPOV edits to a
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As Improv has noted already, your beef with him and his agenda has nothing to do with the VfD per se. Don't be insulted by the VfD vote being posed by someone you don't like – try to read the others' reasons supporting the nominator. If you feel insulted by the nominator's language, address the
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and build an NPOV page; The term "Occupied
Territories" is used generically in the media and by the UN and can be found in textbooks to refer to the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967. When Knowledge users search for the term
958:. Side notes: please keep personal attacks and hate-speech out of WP. BTW, "Hasbara" and "Zionism" are not cusswords and there is nothing wrong with being pro-Israel and at the same time wishing peace and prosperity to the Palestinians.
411:, they find it has been neutered and redirected. There is a concerted effort to eliminate reference to the Occupied Territories because the Israeli position is that the phrase "disputed territories" should be used instead of Occupied.
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It's not for lack of patience. It's because every effort to add balance to
Misdeast articles is thwarted by a gang of stubborn propagandists who revert anything that doesn't fit their pro-Israeli perspective.
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and improve. There are already million articles in this area, so short of a major cleanup action, 1 more or less won't noticably change the clutter; and, who knows, it might even add something useful.
33:
Since it seemed like I would be able to execute the vote, I took the liberty to tally myself even though I'm not an adminstrator. Below are not real votes, of course, just copies of signatures.
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epithets you find insulting, maybe you'll even get someone's excuses (if you do it, you might try to edit your own emotional remarks to more calm language and towards being more to the point).
771:), it seems to me that one limiting factor would be to have the ones who oppose it to vote consistently with each other. Remember when you were bashed for interpreting the VfD outcome on
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pages. As it stands its just a POV dictionary definition, and
Knowledge is not a dictionary. Any additional information belongs in the aforementioned articles. It should be
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and then suggested for inclusion into the corresponding main articles, maybe as a standalone more-POV-ish sections, counterbalanced by the other side's POV-ish sections.
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and protect if necessary. If the majority decides to redirect to another page, count my vote towards that. Second option: make into a disambiguation page (pointing to
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What are you proposing to merge? and what to reduce in size? the article right now is looking like a stub... May I suggest changing your vote to "Delete or Redirect"?
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because, I'm afraid, that your current wording serves your "Keep" point not the very best, frightening people that would otherwise want to support your 'Keep' ideas.
519:. Duplicate article. "Occupied" is POV. Please don't let VfD turn into a battle over Israel-Palestine history/politics. This goes out to you, Alberuni. --
414:. The reasons are political. Israelis want to deny that there is an occupation so that they can deny that resistance to the occupation is legitimate
347:, and has existed here for 2 years now. It's hard to see how this article, with simply one capitalization difference, should exist on its own.
793:— For the sake of Knowledge as a whole, NPOV needs to be maintained even for difficult issues, if necessary with a drastic reduction in size.
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1068:- First, we don't need yet another article regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict. Second, if we were to have such an article,
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1088:? Oh wait, that article already has a comprehensive list of related articles without links to a bunch of POV articles (e.g.
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the VfD nominator guilty by association, if you really want to make a point try explaining why this article should exist
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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to this page. He created a duplicate article to avoid working towards agreement on other pages. --
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is the most logical thing to do, and also will gain satisfaction from improving the quality of the
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Then what makes you think your new article would be any different? I am disturbed too, when I see
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
277:, much less bad blood was spilt and the reduction in Wikilove was smaller. Thanks everybody.
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seeking to score ideological points (see his diatribe/s above) without adding anything new.
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The nominator has a political agenda that goes far beyond keeping clutter out of Knowledge.
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1112:. These territories are currently occupied by Israel but in the future this may change.
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Having read the above, I don't find a reason why you need a separate article given the
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657:. The more redirects we make to that, the fewer parallel/pov articles can be made.
894:. Hard to justify a different treatment for large-case "T" and small-case "t". --
647:. This information is stated many times over in other articles and in the media.
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I cannot resist adding a personal note. I think this VfD went much better than
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1027:. I agree with those above who have said that "occupied" is a loaded term.
439:. As it is, your statement can be understood as "having given up on the
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385:; the existing articles are surprisingly good, this adds nothing. —
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VfD tally, I explicitly state that one can count my vote as either
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How long is this POV forking phenomenon going to continue for?!?
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Knowledge:Votes for deletion/Occupied Palestinian Territories
1054:) and protect if necessary. If no consensus on either, just
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Both of you, can we please keep the insult wars elsewhere?--
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To prevent the vote-counting dispute that happened on the
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page overlaps several others with no additional content.
637:. Of course there will be another POV fork next week.
886:- I have just noticed there exists presently a page
297:). No further edits should be made to this page.
802:NPOV needs to be maintained? Where can I find it?
746:and my attempt to calm it all down moved over to
466:Please *answer* the questions above when you can,
366:Ensuing discussion on that article moved over to
1155:). No further edits should be made to this page.
505:. Alberuni is not serious about contributing a
875:written in boldface in its second paragraph. --
975:Here was a heated personal discussion between
312:An attempt to get around various disputes on
8:
809:In articles on less controversial subjects.
368:Talk:Definitions of Palestinian occupation
343:article already exists, as a re-direct to
302:The result of the debate was - redirected
916:as this "article" is just a repetitious
871:, which precisely contains the phrase
1031:would be better for a NPOV policy. --
357:Definitions of Palestinian occupation
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1076:might work, but an article title of
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934:Ensuing personal discussion with
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873:occupied Palestinian territories
564:. Discuss the occupation there.
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597:I'd support that VfD as well.)
396:, because I'm in a pithy mood.
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
836:Thanks for the understanding!
1:
767:As for your question proper (
742:Further personal comments by
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655:Redirect anywhere, or delete
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566:—No-One
394:Zionism
241:—No-One
207:Zionism
197:--style
142:—No-One
1120:Delete
1066:Delete
1056:delete
1033:Josiah
999:Josiah
989:BACbKA
952:Delete
944:BACbKA
838:BACbKA
824:BACbKA
778:BACbKA
752:BACbKA
728:Improv
704:BACbKA
645:Delete
618:BACbKA
610:Delete
599:BACbKA
580:Delete
539:BACbKA
521:Improv
517:Delete
503:Delete
493:Gwalla
470:BACbKA
445:BACbKA
383:Delete
372:BACbKA
360:BACbKA
322:Delete
260:Josiah
223:Gwalla
179:Josiah
130:Gwalla
75:BACbKA
51:Improv
1096:). --
570:Jones
381:Yes,
349:Jayjg
330:Jayjg
324:d or
245:Jones
239:(6):
218:(2):
209:(1):
146:Jones
71:Jayjg
16:<
1130:Keep
1092:and
1050:and
1011:Keep
979:and
967:Talk
926:IZAK
858:T@lk
688:Ambi
663:siro
592:and
553:. -
507:NPOV
497:Talk
404:Keep
387:Bill
328:ed.
227:Talk
175:IZAK
166:T@lk
157:Ambi
134:Talk
96:siro
86:Talk
43:Bill
1108:to
1072:or
1042:to
1023:to
867:to
853:JFW
628:to
612:or
549:to
484:to
161:JFW
1058:.
987:.
911:or
855:|
616:.
495:|
491:—
488:.
316:,
266:,
262:,
258:,
254:,
250:,
229:,
225:|
221:—
195:,
191:,
181:,
177:,
173:,
169:,
163:|
159:,
155:,
151:,
140:,
136:,
132:|
128:—
125:,
115:,
111:,
77:,
73:,
63:,
57:,
53:,
49:,
45:,
965:←
961:←
675:o
669:χ
660:—
233:,
108:o
102:χ
93:—
84:←
80:←
26:)
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