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that as a good precedent." The same goes for the
Esperanza barnstar, only awarded to good Esperanzans. This simply sets the Esperanzan community further apart from the rest of us, for no reason. It works by who people are, not what they do, which goes utterly against Knowledge (XXG)’s principles. The Tutorial drive is creating and keeping helpful information that would be easier to find if it were placed in the Help articles for the rest of us. This highlights a perennial and worrying problem about Esperanza: that they constantly set themselves apart. They say they give Wikipedians hope – but who has any interaction with Esperanza who isn’t Esperanzan? ... Esperanzans, at least the active ones, see themselves as Esperanzans first and foremost. We have to delete Esperanza for their own good, to show them what Knowledge (XXG) is like outside the wall of their sub-culture.
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wikipedia. Some people in it have particularly aggressive attitudes toward it, but
Esperanza is not built on anything malicious. ... I want to say that I really like what Esperanza has done, and I still like the idea, despite the thoughts put out here. There have been a lot of good ideas, like coaching, support, and recognition programs which reinforce the community. In my mind, the only reason these programs were really that lacking was because we didn't expand them beyond the members. If anything, us members should be the ones managing these programs, and we should reach out and help those who deserve it but haven't specifically asked it. It will be quite a loss when esperanza disappears because it has done a lot of good for people.
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meetings on IRC that made binding decisions about
Esperanza. Any contentious decision was to be passed up to them. There was no consensus building, no discussion, nothing. This has been a problem from Esperanza’s founding, and it seems to be a intrinsic part of Esperanza that cannot be removed. When these points were raised in the overhaul, it was repeated over and over again by virtually every Esperanzan that they needed the leadership, that bureaucracy was needed and that Esperanza would collapse into a mess without it. ... One person even said "I just believe that we cannot all decide policies, we need leadership."
287:. I see this as the only viable way to minimize the pain between all parties involved, and understanding that this MfD will have wider, serious implications for other similiar organisations in future. What do I mean by decentralization? The one main concern brought up in this MfD is the membership, the structure of this organisation. Its programs are good-intentioned, and they are supposed to be avaliable to any editor on Knowledge (XXG). This is also the cause of the perceived "better than thou" and "cabalism" claimed by members, and the lack of consensus building. This means as from now, the
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nessecary. Messedrocker
Solution will be applied to the rest of the pages; deletion not required. Esperanza is too big to be deleted without leaving many red-links and making newcomers wonder. A new essay page describing its history, philosophy and its fate is to replace the existing main Esperanza page. Its talkpage and archives should be clearly marked that its subsequent discussion is only about the essay only. I do not expect the organisation to revive, but hopefully this result will be something that is progressive and less controversial.
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community-based. Without wishing to discount the nominator(s) for their reasons for requesting deletion, I do think
Knowledge (XXG) seriously needs a group of editors whose goal is to promote harmonious editing and community. In an ideal world, both Wiki and real, if everyone was warm and helpful to other users, there would be no use for Esperanza.
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noted, "I think this is a bad idea. Knowledge (XXG) does not need a cabal." In response, a message was posted on the
Esperanza page: "One of the most brought up reasons for not joining Esperanza is that there's too much bureaucracy. Please note that most of the government things are for fun- it's not
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Several users have pointed out that
Esperanza has useful programs, like Collaboration of the Month. To quote Quadell, "The Esperanza CotM is a marginally good thing, I suppose, but it's the only collaboration type that is defined by who edits the article, not by what article is about, and I don't see
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noted that despite reform proposals introduced after the first discussion, "as I had predicted, the momentum of change died and many of the overhaul discussions have been effectively abandoned without ever reaching a consensus. Little reform of the kind promised at the MfD has happened, and now seems
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The debate weighed overwhelmingly toward closing the organization, with many current and former members and leaders endorsing its end; however, much of the debate was about how the closure should take place. While some favored outright deletion of all
Esperanza pages, others felt that simply marking
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Discussion has since now intensively focused on the creation of the new charter. This brings up another impetus for my nomination for deletion: Esperanza is thoroughly unwikipedian in its desire for endless bureaucracy. At the time of the MfD, Esperanza has a seven member council who held closed
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All programs will be migrated to its associated projects and shall be open to every editor on
Knowledge (XXG). The existing program pages should be redirected to its new project page rather than Esperanza itself. ... They are allowed to survive in their new forms and may be MfD-ed seperately if
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Esperanza is a collaboration to help and motivate users. Their goal, to make
Knowledge (XXG) a friendly and helpful place, is not impossible, simply hard to reach and forever growing. While it will never be gained, their one small effort works wonders for our encyclopedia, which is essentially
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I agree with the central reason of this MFD, which condemns the cabalistic attitude of having a members-only club on Knowledge (XXG). It is frusterating to see so many beliefs that this program is out to perfect or destroy wikipedia. There is nothing in Esperanza which could possibly destroy
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They will be salted. This is a warning to all editors that existing projects must be open and transparent to all editors at all times, not to be overly hierarchical lest they are to meet a similiar fate as
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The discussion attracted a flurry of editors, and generated 313 kilobytes of discussion on the MFD and its talk page. Among those who believed the organization should be kept were
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with an explanation of the organization's history and demise, while retaining most of its pages per the Messedrocker solution. In his closure, Mailer Diablo wrote:
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Dev920 also attempted to rebut the common objection from the first MfD discussion, that Esperanza's programs made it worthy of inclusion:
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the organization as inactive was enough. A compromise that gained steam was the "Messedrocker solution" (named after its creator,
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Esperanza organization disbanded after deletion discussion: The destruction of the Esperanza group. A follow up to its creation.
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unlikely to, with many members of Esperanza now having left." She further noted the bureaucracy of the organization:
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really a true authority." After internal struggles, and continued questions over the group's intended goals, it was
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for historical analysis. One year and two months after the piece ran, Esperanza was closed for good. The following
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Esperanza did have some positive contributions; pages split from Esperanza to their own project pages included
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as "no consensus", members of Esperanza began examining the group's projects. Some, including the
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for deletion in November 2006; while the discussion was closed by
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302:The organization was founded in August 2005 by
71:New group aims to promote Wiki-Love (Follow-up)
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764:Knowledge (XXG) Signpost archives 2019-03
18:Knowledge (XXG):Knowledge (XXG) Signpost
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478:"New group aims to promote Wiki-Love"
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536:"From the archives" →
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204:a deletion discussion
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665:To follow comments,
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506:user page award MfD
660:Discuss this story
595:Arbitration report
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45:← Back to Contents
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557:31 March 2019
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