1187:, whether certain beliefs about the nature of homosexuality lead to greater acceptance or not. The conclusion seems to be that it doesn't matter much one way or another. But I don't think any of that is relevant here: Knowledge (XXG) isn't meant to be the propaganda arm of a social justice movement, righting great wrongs. What opinions one should express, what content one should add to articles should be based on what the sources say, not what is beneficial to the social justice movement, or what "plays into the hands of rightwing movements" etc etc.The essay seems to call for disallowing anyone to express something that is now widely recognised in academia: that there's a social and personal component to sexual orientation. This kind of ideological rigidity and gaslighting of anyone who doesn't want to fall in line ("fringe!!!") in the face of obvious evidence cannot possibly be good for something that is meant to be an encyclopaedia.
1373:. And this isn't about anyone "going around telling other editors they are LGBT by personal choice", it's about someone putting generic opinions on one's own user page. It's hardly a "well-known queerphobic trope", as something accepted by LGBT people themselves now and even in the past; nevermind that "trope" usually implies something is false, which this isn't established to be. At last, one can hardly believe these attempts at enforcing some kind of restriction on expressing an opinion that even many LGBT people or "allies" would agree with is about "collegiality"; it can and has only resulted in the opposite, as is clear from the talk page of the original essay. regards,
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will share them anyway. When I grew up in the 1970s, gay men and women would often marry and have families with straight men and women because they were forced to hide for their own safety; this was also the only way they could have children at the time. It wasnât until the late 1980s in the US that people started coming out of these marriages, and it wasnât until the late 1990s that it was accepted. By the 2000s, the right wing began formulating their aggressive attack on gay people to force them back into the closet. Your argument, whether you intended it or not, appears to support this position.
1307:, instead of asking "why would you want to express such an opinion" after trying to get it tabooed with false assertions of "decades of evidence", "fringe", "queerphobia", one should ask what's the point of enforcing these political narratives and trying to ban dissent. Protecting people? From what? Other people's beliefs and opinions? An encyclopaedia ought to be the last place where poltical expediency is privileged over truth, the party line over intellectual diversity. regards,
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eyes. He argued this point with Sartre, but Sartre was adamant. In Saint Genet he even had the effrontery to comment, of Genetâs more essentialist opinion, 'we cannot follow him in this'. Many people now favour Genetâs view over Sartreâs, considering that regardless of other factors that may enter the mix, some of us simply are gay, or at least have a strong propensity in that direction. Sartre seemed to feel that, if we do not completely choose our sexuality, we are not free.
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220:, and a wide assortment of conversations on- and off-wiki. Opinions varied on the content and tone of the essay, and the essay itself changed quite a bit during the process of these discussions (including the addition and removal of material, as well as a retitling of the page itself, and a move into and back out of userspace). Ultimately, a consensus was reached that it did not merit deletion from projectspace.
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1328:. As I said, noting that society can play a factor in someone's gender ID in no way logically justifies saying "trans people choose to be that way", because just like genetics it's not like people have much conscious choice in the society that they grow up in either. In other words, even if "gender = nurture" is not fringe, "being LGBT is a conscious choice" very much is.
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1081:"Possible manifestations" include "userboxes or userpages expressing anti-LGBT sentiments" and an example of these sentiments is the belief "that being LGBT is a conscious choice"? Apparently everything in this world is socially and personally determined, except sexual orientation, which is purely biological and an innate, intrinsic characteristic of a person.
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1204:. I donât see anything in the essay saying that, and the social and personal component you pointed to in the paper is not the one we are discussing. Not sure if you are intentionally misreading and misunderstanding or if this is on purpose to push a POV as others have said. Maybe take a step back and review the recent literature.
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attraction might be socially determined, such as liking larger or smaller body types, there isn't evidence that the gender of who one is attracted to is socially influenced. There is literally decades of scientific research showcasing this. So, again, not sure what sort of fringe nonsense you're arguing for here.
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and implied that any assertion otherwise is "fringe". The essay seeks to smear as "queerphobic" and thus disallow this, or at least the more specific assertion that being LGBT can be a choice (at least for some people). But the scientific evidence does not support this claim. My opposition is to this
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In some polls and studies of heterosexual people's attributions for homosexuality, it has been demonstrated that when individuals believe that homosexuality is a matter of personal choice, their attitudes toward gay men and lesbians tend to be more negative, whereas more positive attitudes toward gay
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As Jane Ward notes in Not Gay: Sex
Between Straight White Men, whatâs interesting about many of these claims is how transparent their speakers are with their political motivations. âSuch statements,â she writes, âinfuse biological accounts with an obligatory and nearly coercive force, suggesting that
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I was born the way all of us are born: as a human being with a seemingly infinite capacity to announce myself, to re-announce myself, to try on new identities like spring raincoats, to play with limiting categories, to challenge them and topple them, to cultivate my tastes and preferences, and, most
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No, there isn't "decades of evidence" to show that sexuality is "inherent". There's evidence to show that there's a genetic *component* to it, but you wouldn't argue that gender is something inherent to one's biology simply because it's highly correlated with one's biology? Yelling "fringe" seems to
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Not sure what nonsense exactly you're pushing here. Plenty of personal characteristics are inherent and biological in nature. Hence why they are frequently protected characteristics in legal systems around the world. Sexual orientation and attraction is inherent and while some amount of specifics of
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Anti-LGBT editors frequently disrupt
Knowledge (XXG) by promoting misinformation or pushing fringe viewpoints (particularly dangerous in medical articles), and create an unwelcoming environment for other editors. Editors who are unable to set aside their beliefs about the LGBT community when editing
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One major point of disagreement between Sartre and Genet concerned Genetâs homosexuality. Sartre interpreted it as part of Genetâs creative response to being labelled a pariah â thus, a free choice of outsiderhood and contrariness. Instead, for Genet, it was a given fact, like having green or brown
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why would you want to make a "this user thinks some queer people are that way by choice" userbox in the first place? whether there is or isn't an environmental or social factor in being gay (which still doesn't mean being gay is a choice), what purpose does such a userbox serve except to be pointed
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Sexual orientation and attraction is inherent and while some amount of specifics of attraction might be socially determined, such as liking larger or smaller body types, there isn't evidence that the gender of who one is attracted to is socially influenced. There is literally decades of scientific
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Youâre confusing multiple topics to try and make your argument. The social component of attraction is obviously separate and quite often maladaptive to the individual, so the argument youâre making is having the opposite result of what you intended. Nobody wants to hear personal anecdotes, but I
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I agree with the essay and don't understand the arguments in favor of deletion. Essays aren't required to reflect consensus, and as far as I can tell no one is specifically being accused of being queerphobic (at least without evidence). It's not a matter of politics, it's a matter of respect and
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Sure, if they edit without engaging in any hate speech or hateful conduct (which includes self-identification with hate movements). While this will be impossible for many bigots, presumably some number do manage this, people who write articles about botany without letting on that they think the
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Anyways, that is mostly irrelevant to the main problem with such userboxes - an editor putting up such a userbox is using a well-known queerphobic trope with absolutely no context, whether they are actually being queerphobic or whether they're "just asking questions" or "just stating facts" or
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The flip side of this is true too: If someone uses a bunch of racial slurs because they think it's funny, or posts an edgy statement about gay people on their userpage as a "social experiment", they are engaged in disruptive editing, even if they don't personally harbor hateful views.
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If an editor consistently and chronically disrupts the encyclopedia by promoting queerphobic opinions/viewpoints, you should collect relevant diffs and report them. If an editor was already made aware of the GENSEX topic restrictions, then you can request enforcement at
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anyone who describes homosexual desire as a choice or social construction is playing into the hands of the enemy.â People who challenge the Born This Way narrative are often cast as homophobic, and their thinking is considered backward â even if they are themselves gay.
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Thanks for publishing this. I have mixed feelings about the essay ignoring the role of religion and right wing politics in creating queerphobia. Itâs pretty obvious where itâs coming from and who is disseminating it, yet we arenât allowed to say it. Strange times.
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should not be going around telling other editors they are LGBT by personal choice. This harms collegiality, which is detrimental to a collaborative project - which is why I will ask you to stop justifying such userboxes further, and get back to editing articles.
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If in the past the scientific interest revolved around the question of ânature or nurture,â the current theories of sexology, which are placed in a sociological, biological, psychological, and social perspective, recognize the multifactorial nature of sexual
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o'Connor, Aoife M.; Seunik, Maximillian; Radi, Blas; Matthyse, Liberty; Gable, Lance; Huffstetler, Hanna E.; Meier, Benjamin Mason (2022). "Transcending the Gender Binary under
International Law: Advancing Health-Related Human Rights for Trans* Populations".
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I assumed this is the point you were trying to make: that implying homosexuality can be a choice is akin to wanting to force gay people "back in the closet". If this isn't what you meant, I apologise.The first response to my comment asserted that
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Comments here are likely to repeat some arguments from previous discussions about the essay. Not sure if there is a good summary available somewhere, but one starting point might the "endorsers" (currently 15) and "non endorsers" (currently 13)
427:, never bring it up, and solely contribute to articles about entomology and highways, you have nothing to worry about and your contributions to Knowledge (XXG) are welcomed. This essay isn't about you. If you try to change the first sentence of
1294:). And/or perhaps they themselves are homosexual, and want to affirm their own freedom, refusing to give into the narrative of preset, unchanging humans born to be a certain way; as Brandon Ambrosino wrote in the aforementioned BBC article:
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This essay outlines common queerphobic beliefs, popular misinformation about the LGBT community, and groups known to spread and support it, so that administrators and editors may recognize them, address them, and show queerphobes the door.
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For a new editor, understand that they are likely ignorant of
Knowledge (XXG) systems and standards. Point them toward relevant guidelines and policies. If they are editing material related to gender identification, make them aware of the
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lay out more specific guidelines for those forms of bigotry; this essay specifically serves to outline common anti-LGBT beliefs, disruptive manifestations of them, and the systems of recourse on
English Knowledge (XXG).
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The nature of science and understanding are constantly in flux. Our understanding of biology, psychology, neurology, etc are continuing to develop -- they are still rather nascent, despite our confidence. How should
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This essay is based on that underlying principle, put succinctly as "your right to swing your fist stops where my nose begins". If you believe LGBT people are amoral deviants who need conversion therapy, but practice
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It's not clear to me what you're trying to say, if you want to make a point, just go ahead and say it. The 2007 paper is investigates the connection between the etiology of homosexuality and public acceptance of it.
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on a noticeboard. They have the potential to permanently damage reputation, especially when the accused's account is publicly tied to a real-world identity. As such, unsubstantiated aspersions are a form of
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In light of this volume of discourse, it seems condign that it should be made available to all who are interested. Here, the version posted has been adapted and slightly abridged from the full version at
872:"APA Policy Statement on Affirming Evidence-Based Inclusive Care for Transgender, Gender Diverse, and Nonbinary Individuals, Addressing Misinformation, and the Role of Psychological Practice and Science"
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342:(formerly "discretionary sanctions"), meaning that editors contributing to articles and discussions about these topics must strictly follow Knowledge (XXG)'s behavioral and editorial guidelines.
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templates. If they are arguing against the guidelines, make it clear that you can't change the guidelines in an article discussion and direct them toward where such discussions can take place.
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addresses how to handle these in articles (we don't include them in articles on the broader topic, but if notable we can discuss them in their own articles while making clear they're fringe).
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guidelines to discipline editors for behavior indicative of queerphobia. This essay lays out common queerphobic beliefs and how to handle users who consistently express and advance them.
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1202:"The essay seems to call for disallowing anyone to express something that is now widely recognised in academia: that there's a social and personal component to sexual orientation."
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That the open or subtextual presence of LGBT people or acknowledgment of them is inappropriately sexual or political and should be kept from the public square, media, or education.
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with homosexuality as a choice, and "social factors" and "choice" are nowhere conflated. I brought up "social factors" only in response to
Silverserene's false claim that
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is somewhat/largely social determined, or that it is a purely social concept. This is absurd a priori, before any "scientific evidence" needs to be called upon. Oh well.
1090:. One would hope this harebrained "essay" remains that instead of being used as a catechism to root out heretics, but that's not how these things work out in the end.
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Why might one? Perhaps they're an existentialist and want to affirm radical free will (cf. Sarah
Bakewell's The Existentialist Café, chapter 9 (Life Studies):
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I've seen you bring this up a few times, with a very obvious flaw (I will charitably assume you are not intentionally trying to be intellectually dishonest).
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Knowledge (XXG) policy does not concern itself with people's private views. The disruption caused by hateful conduct lies in the expression, not the belief.
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I think you misunderstood the 2007 paper you cited. I donât see how it has anything to do with this subject. Regarding the essay in question, you wrote,
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That transgender people should be unable to change their legal gender, should be invariably excluded from gendered spaces, or should be legally denied
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My head boggles at the idea that someone could argue that the gender one is attracted to does not have a social component, while also arguing that
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It can be very tempting, especially in article talk pages, to debate or rebut anti-LGBT talking points on their own merits. However, remember that
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Overlapping with the narratives and beliefs above are more medically-related pseudoscientific/unevidenced proposals and typologies. The guideline
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Many people are drawn to edit
Knowledge (XXG) in order to promote anti-LGBT views, mistakenly believing that their beliefs are protected by the
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be the theme of this essay, but much of it's not supported by any actual evidence. Pulling up
Springer, the first result on the subject I got:
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That LGBT people should be forced to undergo medical or psychological treatments, procedures, or testing on the basis of their identity.
468:. Their inclusion here alone is not necessarily an accusation of bigotry, a restriction on editing, or a consensus-backed judgement on
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I obviously do not anywhere say that a "social factor" alone would mean that homosexuality is a choice. Both of the above quotes deal
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Discussions have raged on for decades about how
Knowledge (XXG) should write about LGBT people and topics. Gender and sexuality (
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people. Queerphobes commonly believe that LGBT people and identities are deviant, and should be denied rights and protections.
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These beliefs may manifest in various ways that damage the encyclopedia. Below is a non-exhaustive list of possible ones.
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lays out why denigrating minorities is not allowed on Knowledge (XXG) and results in blocking and banning; others such as
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847:. Stick to source-based and policy-based discussions which serve to improve articles. If a conversation is blatantly
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Supporting "nurture" in the nature v. nurture argument is not the same as saying being LGBT is a conscious choice
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Holocaust was a hoax, or fix lots of typos and never mention that they think it was a mistake to let women vote.
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reconcile inevitable conflicts between science and your anti-LGBT list? What if at some point in time
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Editors brazenly vandalizing articles or using slurs may be immediately blocked. Knowledge (XXG) has
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article subjects, or arguing against using their current pronouns in violation of Knowledge (XXG)'s
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men and lesbians are associated with attributing homosexuality to something people are âborn withâ.
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Denigrating comments about the LGBT community in articles and talk space, often through the use of
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Friendly reminder that everyone is also allowed to work on creating and improving content instead.
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for such behavior. If an edit is grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive, it may be subject to
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contain the most up-to-date guidelines for writing about transgender people on Knowledge (XXG).
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face a common criticism: "we should sanction editors for their behaviors, not their beliefs".
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by way of editing behaviors and POVs widely considered disruptive, hateful, insulting, or
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should reflect RS and should thus neutrally present the nature v. nurture arguments, but
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and cannot write or speak neutrally about LGBT-related topics because of their identity.
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That LGBT identities should be cured, treated, or suppressed - commonly referred to as
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there isn't evidence that the gender of who one is attracted to is socially influenced
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aspersions) should not be used as a trump card in disputes over content or a
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That recognizing same-sex marriage is a slippery slope towards legalizing
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I hate getting into the specifics of a gender theory argument but....
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This is discussed at length in the BBC article in the first post and
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All LGBT people are amoral deviants who need conversion therapy...
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This is not an unfair argument so it bears exploration. The essay
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that reached nearly two hundred thousand characters of text, a
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transgender subjects is necessary to preserve "neutrality", "
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This essay was recently the subject of quite some debate â a
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Sexuality and Sexual Orientation in the Twenty-First Century
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That LGBT people overall have greater societal power than
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Queerphobic editors on Knowledge (XXG) frequently think:
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This is an essay, not a content or behavioural guideline.
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Userboxes or userpages expressing anti-LGBT sentiments.
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tells a story that by your definition is anti-LGBT?
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and controversial? userboxen should be for info about
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and may justify it in scientific or religious terms.
1069:If your comment has not appeared here, you can try
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That being LGBT is a conscious choice or unnatural.
306:viewpoints and drive away productive LGBT editors.
623:That pushing anti-LGBT narratives is protected by
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765:process difficult to go through and may create a
821:. Otherwise, request administrator attention at
575:or other strange or disfavored sexual practices.
525:, predatory, pedophilic, or otherwise dangerous.
439:a behavioral issue and the focus of this essay.
393:addresses the issue like this (emphasis added):
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1322:"Preset, unchanging humans born a certain way"
677:viewpoints about the LGBT community, commonly
538:That the LGBT community or a subset of it are
460:This section provides a working definition of
1382:Do you understand the purpose of a userpage?
568:should be restricted to heterosexual couples.
528:That LGBT people cannot know their identities
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1234:part of the essay. I hope I'm being clear.
787:our social policies are not a suicide pact
1579:Knowledge (XXG) Signpost archives 2024-06
1297:importantly, to love and to receive love.
18:Knowledge (XXG):Knowledge (XXG) Signpost
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773:What to do if you encounter queerphobia
615:or have it otherwise made inaccessible.
514:Frequent anti-LGBT narratives include:
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653:That LGBT editors have an inherent
491:is the fear, hatred, or dislike of
256:It is well within the scope of the
71:Wiki thĂ nh viĂȘn LiĂȘn minh há»i (WTL)
722:Knowledge (XXG):Casting aspersions
391:Knowledge (XXG):Hate is disruptive
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1054:These comments are automatically
370:Beliefs, expressions, and actions
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323:Knowledge (XXG):No Confederates
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801:Contentious topics/alert/first
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298:are not welcome here. They
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603:gender exploratory therapy
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315:Knowledge (XXG):No racists
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1397:07:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
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1371:research showcasing this.
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1312:16:42, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
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30:No queerphobia: An essay.
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1420:15:44, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
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809:Contentious topics/alert
403:So bigots can edit here?
319:Knowledge (XXG):No Nazis
254:This page in a nutshell:
662:Possible manifestations
655:WP:conflict of interest
354:or who seek to promote
270:policy. Expressions of
1062:. To follow comments,
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542:youth into being LGBT.
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720:Further information:
644:the historical record
629:neutral point of view
330:Context of this essay
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1384:Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI
1343:Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI
1303:Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI
1254:Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI
1058:from this article's
908:10.1017/jme.2022.84
443:Queerphobic beliefs
311:WP:HATEISDISRUPTIVE
214:deletion nomination
1049:Discuss this story
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777:You should always
763:dispute resolution
727:Casting aspersions
648:biological reality
613:medical transition
599:reparative therapy
595:conversion therapy
480:Anti-LGBT rhetoric
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358:viewpoints may be
258:disruptive editing
45:â Back to Contents
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1073:purging the cache
989:News from the WMF
974:Technology report
834:revision deletion
779:assume good faith
679:civil POV-pushing
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340:contentious topic
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228:WP:No queerphobia
50:View Latest Issue
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1494:Choose wisely.
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1045:+ Add a comment
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979:Deletion report
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1515:The Signpost
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1128:orientation.
1008:
984:In the media
962:all comments
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709:MOS:GENDERID
705:misgendering
692:dog whistles
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640:misgendering
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551:heterosexual
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376:WP:NORACISTS
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344:MOS:GENDERID
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196:, and others
182:RoxySaunders
108:PDF download
74:CC BY-SA 4.0
1561:Suggestions
1476:. Regards,
1446:Wikipedians
1410:dignity. --
1056:transcluded
956:8 June 2024
785:. However,
711:guidelines.
625:free speech
523:fetishistic
505:transgender
489:Queerphobia
462:queerphobia
380:WP:NOCONFED
348:MOS:GIDINFO
296:queerphobia
284:transphobia
276:lesbophobia
158:X (Twitter)
57:8 June 2024
1496:Polygnotus
1366:explicitly
1185:this paper
855:References
716:Aspersions
701:Deadnaming
636:deadnaming
573:bestiality
484:LGBT slang
478:See also:
470:due weight
384:WP:NONAZIS
360:restricted
309:The essay
272:homophobia
194:0xDeadbeef
96:Share this
91:Contribute
22:2024-06-08
1555:Subscribe
1429:Viriditas
1412:Xacaranda
1206:Viriditas
1167:Viriditas
1088:BBC, 2016
1060:talk page
935:"Essay" â
838:Oversight
675:WP:FRINGE
584:WP:FRINGE
566:parenting
547:cisgender
356:WP:FRINGE
336:WP:GENSEX
304:WP:FRINGE
292:acephobia
288:arophobia
1573:Category
1550:Newsroom
1545:Archives
1527:Mastodon
1523:Facebook
1455:Tonymetz
1391:my edits
1350:my edits
1334:articles
1261:my edits
925:Previous
783:civility
562:adoption
558:marriage
501:bisexual
425:civility
280:biphobia
148:Facebook
138:LinkedIn
128:Mastodon
20: |
1519:Twitter
1450:WP:NPOV
1338:editors
1034:Concept
994:Opinion
927:"Essay"
646:", or "
631:policy.
627:or the
553:people.
493:lesbian
300:disrupt
268:WP:NPOV
186:Raladic
1470:!votes
1375:TryKid
1309:TryKid
1236:TryKid
1189:TryKid
1153:TryKid
1136:TryKid
1107:Silver
1092:TryKid
1029:Humour
823:WP:ANI
795:GENSEX
738:-phobe
466:FRINGE
382:, and
321:, and
168:Reddit
118:E-mail
1540:About
1299:But,
1112:seren
1024:Comix
1009:Essay
875:(PDF)
819:WP:AE
811:|gg}}
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634:That
564:, or
556:That
509:queer
190:Some1
82:Essay
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1500:talk
1482:talk
1478:HaeB
1472:at
1433:talk
1416:talk
1210:talk
1171:talk
933:Next
732:-ist
482:and
429:LGBT
1525:or
1517:on
1250:you
904:doi
805:or
735:or
703:or
638:or
601:or
497:gay
431:to
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