Knowledge talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/More macrons discussion

2412:

all. Why don't we spell his first name Ἀπόλω and his second name Антон while we're at it? Then reromanize his name from all three different languages--or maybe we should first put it in Thai or Swahili, then translate that to English. Did his mother have ancestors from some place where they use either the Greek alphabet or the Cyrillic alphabet? It doesn't matter any more than his father coming from some place where they speak Japanese. Apolo is an American-born, American-raised person whose name (speculation, but...) was likely recorded on his birth certificate in English only, and that's the spelling he has used since. Even if he were to start spelling his name differently, that would be a change of the English spelling, not something that needs romanization from Japanese.

1175:

location, on the other hand, such as Tōkyō does not have an officially registered English name and no entity has the authority to decide one either. While 九州 recently became Kyūshū, Kyushu University did not change. The university decided upon that, and I can not change that. Japanese (people) names are officially registered in koseki (family register), in Japanese. You can confirm someone's koseki at their nearby city hall (区役所 etc). A person may go by a nickname, as I do, but that does not make it the official name. All of these things have been discussed already, so it should not be relavent to repeat all of the issues. If there is a possibility of confusion, pages can be redirected.

1816:. English is non-normative in Japan. Japan can not dictate English spelling. I short my name for daily use. It is my body and mind and while I should be able to dictate official policy for myself, my name is in fact officially and legally defined on my birth certificate, in English. My webpage does not change that. I do not have a Japanese koseki and therefore my official name in Japan must be written in Latin script. Again, my preference and webpage does not change that. English is not an officially, legally recognized language (公用語) in Japan. Therefore, it can not define an official English spelling. Tōkyō / Tokyo is officially 東京. The English rendition is not theirs to decide. 588:. Now back to . This matter has nothing to do with "what is part of the Japanese language" and instead has everything to do with what's informative and otherwise helpful for the reader of en:WP. Some people interpret the latter to mean what's less likely to cause initial confusion to the reader of en:WP who knows very little and has a short attention-span. However, since the justification for illustrations of human naughty bits in articles about sex is that they're informative and their viewer/readers can be presumed to be adult, articles using Japanese names can also assume maturity in their readers. Maturity implies, 1501:"official names"? Officially, the location is 東京, not Tōkyō or Tokyo. We can not expect the average reader to be able to read the official name, so we choose to transliterate it. The same issue is true for names. Note that there is a section in the linked article about not over doing it, too. There is also a Precise section. How are words such as Ōita, Kyūshū, and Kantō more "common" than Oita, Kyushu, or Kanto? Be consistent. If you will recognize macrons for some words (such as above), then accept them for all words. If you insist on removing the macrons, then remove them from 4436:

squiggles of various sorts in other languages, and quite capable of producing them when they desire to do so, quite legitimately and properly choose not to do so in the ordinary course of business. And if I run across something like that in a newspaper, a magazine, or on television, and go look for more information about it on Knowledge and can't find it right away, I'll just assume it is something that isn't here. So all your hard work in prettying up all those letters will go for naught, because I won't see it. That's a pretty screwball way to go about things.

1295:(b) while systematic, will give the appearance of chaos because articles with associated names (like Osaka City and Osaka Gas above) will be shown differently in their respective articles. Edit: I see you have noted this above in the case of the current system, when you said that "At present, pages use a mixture of macrons and no macrons. This seems inconsistent and only invites confusion and misunderstanding by readers." However, I believe the current standard is straightforward. Readers are unlikely to be surprised to see an obscure article have a macronned title. 415:

the length or insert an "h" in its place (ie, Ōno, not to be confused with Ono, becomes Ono or Ohno). If you base your decision on passports, then all names, past and present, as well as place names, should be stripped of macrons without exception. At the very least be consistent. Scholarly texts, as opposed to general newspaper articles, will often use the macron form, both for people and place names. We can debate people's names without end if you like, but without resolve. Therefore I am trying to focus on places. Both exhibit the exact same macron issue.

2534:

though. But, it should be his official name. Etymologically, that name may, and probably does, trace back to a Japanese that can be written in Japanese. But that should not be relavent. I have consistantly pushed for (legally recognized) official names. In places where official names are written in a foreign script (such as kanji, kana, or even Cyrillic), a close transcription is necessary, which may or many not contain macrons. It should not be relavent to English Knowledge, but Japanese Knowledge writes his name entirely in katakana with no kanji.

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reason. Bendono, I see you know lots of arguments for the cause of using macrons. I was wondering if you would happen to know why Knowledge prefers to use it's own romanized version of a name as opposed to the officially romanized name or the most commonly used romanized names. Official names and commonly used names are usually used in articles not related to Japan. By the way, I finally figured out how to type in the macrons. I made a page to help others learn to. Articles in the Knowledge namespace don't have to sound formal, do they?

3338:

counterintuitive, etc; but, it doesn't change the fact that a user can type in the un-macron name to google, click the first link, and end up on the page where they should be (with macrons) without ever being the wiser. I don't know if Google found the page from the Allpages links, or from What links here; but, in any case, the page was found, indexed, and reported in the search terms. I was on the fence considering macrons in titles for this very reason, until the google experiment concluded.

1005:*I just rexamined the list of cities and realised most of them are not sensible. The key difference with the macronised version of Tōkyō instead of Tokyo compared to Moskva and Moscow is that macrons can be ignored completely by the lay reader and still get the spelling they were expecting. Not so with Moskva which looks like a completely different word. Comparisons of macronised Japanese with the romanisation systems of other languages doesn't seem very helpful to this debate to me. 2065:

in any form at all in English. Now all we have to do is think about what the most common form is. We can take this (1) case-by-case, or (2) as a whole for consistency. If (1), we have the situation as it is now. Tokyo is more common than Tōkyō (see the Google results higher on this page). Shigejirō Matsuda is just as well known as Shigejiro Matsuda in the English-speaking world, so take your pick. If (2), we are forced to discard all macrons because they are not common in English.

4202:, of course, is not true. The vast majority English speakers would never even suspect that the word could be written with macron so there is something else that could be tried. Furthermore, looking only at the small number who do suspect that, the vast majority of them wouldn't know which letters have macrons, which have some other diacritic or no diacritic at all, and hardly any would have the foggiest idea how to get letters with macrons into the search box. 35: 200:

makes the sound of "a" as in "cake," that "Ī" makes the sound of "i" as in "time," that "Ū" makes the sound of "u" as in "lute," that "Ē" makes the sound of "e" as in "Pete," and that "Ō" makes the sound of "o" as in "tone" will have trouble pronouncing them. I used to have a hard time with macrons until I learned that they are pronounced completely different then what I was taught in school, except for "Ū" and "Ō," which are similar.

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page. The number of pages linking to an page is very important for Google pageranking. Links from higher-Google-ranking sites are more valuable than links from lower-Google-ranking sites. Other sites will be more likely to link to thee article as opposed to the redirect page. The importance of the terms use in the article is also important in page rank. More instances of the term in the article will help its page rank for that term.

2960:? Did you use a Basic Search or an Advanced Search? Do you have it default to a particular language, or explicitly specify language? Include or exclude either the word "Knowledge" or the site "wikipedia.com"? All those things point out other difficulties in basing decisions on "Google results", in addition to the fact that there are a zillion other search engines out there besides the entire Google family of search engines. 801:

me pronounce the words in English. It is just part of the spelling and something to memorize, or at least understand when you come across such words. I note that I can read and understand the words, without special knowledge of the etymology, both with and without the diacritics. However, if the diacritics were not there in the first place, I would not be able to infer the correct diacritics from their absence (ie, data loss).

2080:(1) Case-by-case is nothing more than one person's opinion over another. The arguments will never end. I argue for Tōkyō and every other word; others argue for the non-macron version. So, that leaves option (2). It is not my preference, but given the two choices, at least it is consistent. I do not wish to re-hash the same argument as above, but there is also one more choice to consider: (3) Accept macrons. Even if this was 2238:, and macrons are unnecessary to them. Since this is the English Knowledge, I believe macrons are added as a reading aid for the English users. This is fine as long as the word is not in any common usage in English. If, however, the word is in common usage in English, the common form should take precedence over the macronned form. I believe this is the point where many people disagree, and we should take a poll on this. 814:"Macrons, and diacritics in general, are just a matter of orthography (spelling)." --This, I believe, is simply wrong. The correct spelling in English is Tokyo, not Tōkyō. What you are trying to do has some value, but it is not accepted English. And since it is not accepted English, if it was the case that this is simply a matter of spelling, there would be no reason to make the changes. 4790:. A long time ago, I set up a uniquely named userpage, with macrons. I also created a redirect (without macrons) to that userpage. No pages linked to the non-macron name. After some time, typing in the macron-free name into google resulted in the page being found. This does not address all of the searchability issues, but, it is still something to consider. 2035:"I do not argue for macrons for phonological reasons." All right. Maybe we're making progress. The American Heritage Dictionary says that a macron is "a diacritical mark placed above a vowel to indicate a long sound or phonetic value in pronunciation." Macrons are phonological and thus Tōkyō represents the Japanese pronunciation. But let's set that aside. 805:

other such spellings. Same with "karate". We do not spell it "kuraty" or "carraty". Spelling and pronunciation, especially true for English, are two different concepts. Spelling may be an initial hint at the pronunciation, but it can not replace IPA. Macrons, and diacritics in general, are just a matter of orthography (spelling).

3502: 3226: 3186:. But it doesn't stop at the redirect page unless it is a double redirect; normally, it follows the redirect, and then it indexes the page it gets to from the redirect. Guess what appears right on top of that page, right there in the visible text? It will say, right under the page name Gōofīernāme, "(Redirected from 295:

unambiguous and automatically round-trips between scripts. The spelling Tokyo, on the other hand, does not automatically round-trip. It is not possible to infer the long vowel in the non-macron version. Ride a train to Tōkyō station. The first thing you should notice upon arrival is the spelling, in big letters: Tōkyō.

1628:"Tōkyō is not known in English to me as Tokyo." This is the problem in a nutshell. "We can not expect the average reader to be able to read the official name, so we choose to transliterate it." Certainly not. The intention here is not to transliterate the source language. Despite the fact that the English word simply 483:

providing English translations over the next few years. However, it has been clarified that these English translations are non-normative and that the courts will only rely upon the original Japanese. The English versions, even if produced by the Japanese government, are not official and are merely informative.

760:, for example, is now an English word with an English pronunciation that differs from the Japanese, and that is okay! English speakers don't seem to have any qualms about slaughtering Latin, French, and German stems on a regular basis. Conversely, Japanese itself doesn't have any qualms about calling the 4259:

words, multiple spellings on the same page will only result in confusion. "Why are they spelled differently?" "Are these two words the same thing?" "Maybe these are two different concepts..." How it may help search engines, the intended reader is human. Consistent spelling and style should be a given.

597:. ¶ To my mind, the problem is that both existing approaches (Kunrei/Nippon, Hepburn) to the romanization of Japanese suck, but at least readers of en:WP can be presumed to be familiar with the oddities of English spelling, so I suppose that the heavily-English-influenced Hepburn isn't so bad here. -- 4755:

Yes there is a work around. In order for the redirect pages to show up in Google, Google needs to be able to find them. Hyperlinks to the redirect pages need to be placed where Google can find and crawl them. This will allow the redirect pages to show up in Google, but for best visibility it would be

4512:

The term used in the article's title and throughout the body of the article will have an advantage over the other terms in a Google search because that page will have more pages linking to it and have more instances of the term being used throughtout the article than an alternate term on its redirect

2504:

The thing is, it would be unnecessary instruction creep to state the obvious. No "exceptions" are needed here. When you don't have a romanization in the first place, there cannot be any argument about the best romanization for Knowledge to use. That applies to tofu, as well as to Apolo Anton Ohno.

2174:

I would argue that macrons should be used for all place names, including Tōkyō, Ōsaka and Kyōtō because these are the forms used in academic texts (which I believe Knowledge should strive to be) and because readers who don't understand macrons can just ignore them and still get the spelling they were

1906:

Established English, including professionally published sources, has both forms: Tōkyō and Tokyo. This is the English version of Knowledge. As such, it is not the appropriate forum to decide upon the Japanese Knowledge. However, I will note that ピザ was borrowed from Italian, not English.　And I should

1763:

It's unavoidable that when words move between languages the spelling and pronunciation will change. Even if we're trying to prevent that from ever happening in the case of Japanese figures who are currently obscure in the Western world, the macron is not a solution. The "Sigezirou Matsuda" article is

1745:

Both Ōita and Oita are established in English. Even the "official" Ōita webpage spells it as Oita, just like the "official" Tōkyō webpage spells it as Tokyo. Oita is probably more common. Preferrably, I would like macrons for all words. However, if that is not an option, then for consistency, I would

1294:

Orthographic merits and demerits aside, the fact remains that the current system is much cleaner. If a city is known as Tokyo in English, we write Tokyo. Since Ōita is unknown in English, we write Ōita. Your system, while verifiable, (a) is much more difficult to maintain than the current system, and

1174:

Company names are officially registered and decided upon by the company. That includes English orthography. ソニー in English is Sony, not Sonī. These official registrations can be looked up at appropriate official locations (city hall, etc.). The English names do not even have to be remotely similar. A

4660:

Of course, this is one of the cases where the sort key hasn't been fixed either, though it is less likely to actually result in it being out of order when you have to get to the sixth letter before there will be any problems. Nonetheless, there are many cases, especially when things get into heavily

4502:

The point on making Knowledge articles invisible to Google searches is interesting, and, it seems to me, very important. Considering that Knowledge directs users to find articles through search engines when normal searching fails to yield results, I think this is something that has to be considered.

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article, but, if you search without the macron, you won't find this combination). This is more widespread than Japanese, and it is not something we can solve for Knowledge by deciding whether our articles include macrons or not. As long as there is a Knowledge policy supporting unicode characters,

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in its name nor anywhere in the article, and it is highly unlikely that it ever has (if you want to wade through every difference, let us know what you find). Furthermore, it doesn't have any redirects leading to it which use the "color" spelling. Granted, if I get to the page and use my browser's

2673:

Response: Every edit page includes the required diacritics. If that is still too difficult, then do not use them. Let others come alone later to fix the spelling as appropriate, just like all other misspelled words. No one is forcing you to use them. However, the current guidelines restrict my usage

2411:

If you want to see the tide turn towards a consensus to outlaw macrons entirely on Knowledge for romanizations from Japanese, keep up those specious arguments. After all, not only are the macron letters not part of the English alphabet, but there are legitimate Romanizations which do not use them at

2064:

The other points raised sum up the argument for using the most common form: (a) English is non-normative in Japan, i.e., there are no words officially written with or without macrons in Japan; and (b) English is non-regulated in English-speaking countries, i.e., there are no words officially written

1728:

and, when included, will be glossed over by uninformed readers until Oita becomes standard usage. People who know Japanese will also know its Japanese pronunciation. Therefore, if you have to choose for complete consistency (and we don't!) I'd be forced to say that using no macrons at all is better.

1727:

We can use the macronned orthography for Ōita because the word is not established in English. However, it is undoubtably the case that if Ōita becomes famous, it will lose its macron and start to be pronounced differently. That is because the macron is simply not used in standard English orthography

800:

Macrons are not only for pronunciation. It is a matter of spelling. English has words with diacritics as well: café, cliché, communiqué, naïve, première, piñata, résumé, smörgåsbord, jalapeño, and many more. Of course, some people choose to not write the diacritics though. The diacritics do not help

707:

Tangentially, as I sit here at this Japanese computer with a Japanese keyboard in Japan, I am utterly unable to find a way to type a macron on a Japanese keyboard, and I have been cutting and pasting throughout my participation in the discussion. By the way, of the three train lines I use, none uses

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and any number of German and Scandinavian articles would use non-English letters, and that any number of articles would use accent marks. This is the English Knowledge, and things should be rendered in English. But, you know what? There is no need to dumb things down for the English-language reader,

121:

4435:

Actually, to most readers of the English Knowledge, anything other than those spellings are misspelled and grating on the eyes. There is no error in using the English alphabet to write in English. Many English publications, especially newspapers and magazines, though well aware of the existence of

3812:

Equivalence is less relevant than accessibility. Inputting the string that uses actual keyboard keys does not yield the desired search results. This means that the macron requirement is reducing the usefulness of the (general-use) encyclopedia, and therefore, that adding redirects is not "doing the

3113:

A non-macron search will still be successful as long as there is a redirect page that Google can find. Many redirect pages on Knowledge are like remote islands with no roads coming into them from the mainland. Unless Google is aware of the redirect pages, they will not show up in search results. In

2441:

I don't think he was trying to say that we should actually change the spelling of the name. I think he was using it as an absurdist example of how the breadth of the macronning needs to have expressed limits. His example of macronning tofu was better. The previous guidelines dealt with that well by

2115:

By that argument, common usage would require Kyushu, Oita, Kanto, Hokkaido, etc. While not as well known as Tōkyō, these places are hardly "obscure topics". Realistically, out of a random group of 10 people, how many do you think would know that the current prime minister is Shinzō Abe, or that the

2093:

To the comment a bit above, but also to this, my reply is that I am not ready to give up on (1) for the sake of consistency. "Simply put, all or none" is not a decision that we are forced to make. I agree that this has become a matter of opinion. You can disagree with the style guide, but it is not

548:

I don't know what is required, but several years ago, I had a very long discussion with the passport people at the prefecture office when they tried to dictate the romaji spelling of my wife's new last name based on the katakana. After a few kachos and buchos were brought into the discussion, they

486:

If Abe chooses to spell his name as Shinzo, fine, but that is a nickname. Daily, I go by a nickname as well (I shorten my first name and ignore my middle name). In Japanese, I write my name in kanji. However, as has been pointed out to me many times, none of that is my official name. Therefore I am

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are what matters.) So in essence, we cannot look to any Japanese language sources. We can only look to English language sources, such as English dictionaries and/or any other official English spelling provided by the person/organization in question. Plus, if the un-macronned spelling is much more

3979:

Okay, so just for the sake of argument, let's assume that sometime today you (either Bendono or Jecowa, I don't care which) wake up and smell the coffee, get off your duff, and get out there and create the missing redirect I have already pointed out in two previous posts (including a previous link

3866:

If diacritics truly did hurt Knowledge accessibility, then I would expect Knowledge to issue an official policy regarding them. Instead, they actually provide many common diacritics below the edit box. As a general-use encyclopedia, do you suggest removing them from every article? That surely goes

2187:

Just as a clarification; while points 8, 9, and 10 are new, and were updated by me a few days ago as a result of the discussions above (where consensus was reached on the cities in question), that particular discussion was framed in the context that "macrons are ok, except in special cases", which

1343:

What is it that you wish to say? Let me match your Tokyo with the one found at Tōkyō station. As already established, multiple forms exist. The official name is 東京. As English is non-normative in Japan, it's not even legally recognized, no individual, whether it is the state, JR or otherwise, has

720:

Unless you have modified your keyboard, macrons are not directly available. There are many ways to enter them. However, for Knowledge, please notice that all edit screens have all of the diacritics available right below the "Save page" button. Scroll down just a little more and you should find it.

482:

A website, even run by the Japanese Government, does not make it the English official. English usage in Japan is non-normative. Look at the situation with laws. There have been several English translations of Japanese laws available. The Japanese government recently announced that they would start

414:

As for living people, people generally do not want diacritics in their name. Japanese names are officially recorded in a koseki (family registry). This can not contain a Latin spelling. Thus, there is no official Latin spelling. Japan does not issue passports with macrons. You may choose to ignore

166:

Consistency would be nice. Macrons don't help out so much when they aren't consistently used on all articles because in a title without macrons you wouldn't know if all the vowels are all single-length vowels or if some are double-length and it was decided to not use macrons in that title for some

3919:

Searching for one term works fine in our model. But, as Gene pointed out above, searching for that same term in conjunction with another term may result in missed hits. Google does voodoo magic on their links and our redirects, (Search for "Oita takasakiyama site:wikipedia.org", and the article

3459:. Why would you expect a search for either words to return the same results? Just as a search for "color" and "colour" (even though they mean the same thing!) will yield different results, so will the case with diacritics. How do you propose fixing color / colour? Google doesn't help there either. 2944:

So, what results did you get, then? Did your (Ichijōdani chess) search actually find that .ja article? Or did it find nothing at all, not even the 16 my search found? Or merely a different number of hits? What did you mean, you were not able to "produce the same results"? What results did you

213:

I am completely in support of Bendono's assertion. For the sake of consistency, accuracy, and professionalism, I would love to see macrons on everything. At first I was annoyed by the various diacritics in other languages that I don't understand, recognize, or know how to pronounce. I was annoyed

199:

I was just thinking about the macrons. Using them in every page would help people pronounce those names correctly, but only if they understood the way that macrons are used in words from Japan and as long as they know that word is from Japan. Other people that were taught in grade school that "Ā"

4732:

issue. We need these articles to reach people through search engine hits. Is there any way to make a workaround? In his original post here, Bendono said that, "Even if the entry title does not use diacritics, the main text should be allowed to use them when appropriate." Should we go back to the

3923:

But, if you search without macrons for a (normally macron'd) word which is not in the title of an article, Google will not find it. Compare the google results of "Ōhira Oshika site:en.wikipedia.org" with "Ohira Oshika site:en.wikipedia.org" and, you'll see the problem that Gene was pointing out

3588:

No link from anywhere else is going to put the word "color" on the Knowledge page, so that Google can index it, as it would when Knowledge's software does put that word on the page if it gets there through a redirect. And there is no Knowledge redirect to this article which contains the "color"

2818:

Redirects are of little help in finding the article in a search on Yahoo or AltaVista or Google or whatever. You see the results above, where people are able to claim, though it really doesn't have the accuracy they claim for Google searches, which vary a lot depending on many different factors

2214:

In my own English articles aimed at general readers I prefer to use macrons sparingly only to emphasize Japanese pronunciation when that is relevant to the article's subject. Macrons reduce readability as a distraction to those unfamiliar with the notation and by being undisplayable on platforms

1924:

Of course I don't actually want to make the change or dictate policy to the JA Wiki, and I meant to talk about borrowed words in general, not just those from English. I am simply making the parallel point that the Japanese page states "イタリア語: pizza、ピッツァ" and thus recognizes an alternate form but

1530:

I didn't mean to say that Ōita, Kyūshū, and Kantō are more "common" than Oita, Kyushu, or Kanto. I meant it the other way around, except for Kyūshū, which is a little more common that Kyushu, but Oita and Kanto are very much more common than Ōita and Kantō. Overall, however, I believe the macron

1473:

The history book I was just reading last weekend, with text written in English, used "Ōsaka", "Tōkyō", "daimyō, and other terms. As far as I noticed, it used macrons for all words where appropriate. I did not author or edit the book. They did not even ask me for my opinion. But I must say that I

804:

Words like karaoke and karate are now English words with their own pronunciation. That is not a problem. English has borrowed much from Latin, French and other languages, but of course pronounce them differently. However, we consistently spell "karaoke" as "karaoke", and not with "carry-okee" or

624:

As above, I'm in favor of macronless Tokyo, Osaka, etc; but, I'm becoming less sure of the reasons why... LordAmeth's views of consistency and accuracy certainly raise good points. As far as relying on common dictionary spellings, though, what are we going to do when wikipedia starts embedding

592:

the ability to tolerate initial unfamiliarity. Helpfulness is not limited to what will contribute to making the reader feel immediately at ease. And I don't see the teaching of idiosyncratic phonetic symbols in some grade schools (why the hell didn't they use IPA?) as a reason not to use Hepburn

428:

The "Shinzo Abe" seen on the Japanese Government website is, not in any way, unofficial. Authors choose how their names are romanized on Western editions of books. If the said individual has knowledge of English or Western languages, he or she can choose his or her own romanization. I.E. look at

149:

There are so many exceptions. And what one person considers common English often others will not. A dictionary helps sometimes, but people and place names are just not possible. To me, Shinzo Abe and Tokyo are simply misspelled, period. It is extremely grating on the eyes and makes me think that

4258:

Yes, I recall you writing that. However, I do not think that is a good idea. Being inconsistent with multiple spellings of the same word suggests that the page is poorly edited and reflects poorly on Knowledge. A reader my understand for common English words. However, for foreign transliterated

3261:

The macron'd word is MācrōnName. Searching Google without the macrons yields two hits. The original page I set up without any incoming links, and a second page in the mediation discussion where the results were mentioned. To be honest, I was a little surprised when google picked it up. I was

2877:

information from English speakers doing search engine searches. More than 99.99% of the time, those searches are going to be done for the version without macrons. In many searches on many search engines, that means that at least some of the pages using only the version with macrons will not be

2533:

Now, for a change of pace. I actually agree with Gene about Apolo Anton Ohno. I do not know anything more about him than what I read in the Knowledge article. But, if he was American-born (Seattle, WA), then he should have a birth certificate spelling out his name. Of course I have not seen it,

4079:

I will be doing more of them myself. Of course, my preference is to do it the easy way, fixing both problems at once, just a click on the tab at the top of the page, replace a letter or two, save. Probably not five seconds. Redirect created automatically, and only need to tweak indexing if

835:

Evidence? Is there an offically registered English spelling that you can refer me to? I am sure that you can find examples of Tokyo, but I can also find examples of Tōkyō, too. Neither Tokyo or Tōkyō may be officially "correct", but in the absence of an officially registered spelling, a close

4345:

Using a mixture helps people understand that they have found what they wanted to find--it equates the version that they know (whether with or without macrons) to the other one. That factor ought be obvious to all the people who insist that changing a diacritic can change a word's meaning or

3409:

article as it stands now, because that article doesn't contain the word "chess". People do searches all the time. Much of the time when I search for something, I'm not looking for a Knowledge article which has any or all of the words I'm using in its article name; I want to find what fits,

298:

Human beings are lazy. They will try to get away without writing macrons if they can. In the past, before Unicode, there were many competing character sets and encodings. This often limited what people could write or exchange. During the days of typewriters, while not impossible, it was more

294:

The English spelling is most certainly based on the Japanese (kanji, kana). For example, in Japanese there is 東京 or とうきょう. In English, it is not given an arbitrary name such as Sarbaxia (choose anything that you like). Instead, the spelling is a close approximation: Tōkyō. Such a spelling is

2442:

the "non-macronned form in use in a major English dialect" criterion, but some commenters wish to override that convention. I wouldn't be entirely unhappy to see the tide turn - the macronned form would be shown in all nihongo templates anyway. I still think there are 26 letters in English.

538:

However, I believe that there's no choice of romanization method when it comes to obtaining a passport. A Japanese linguist friend of mine is probably not alone in detesting Hepburn but grudgingly using it as it's what appears in his passport: it's just too laborious to have to explain that

2889:

I have only experiemented a little so I may not be correct. But, it would seem that Google normalizes text and returns results both with and without macrons. Thus, entering a search term with macrons will also return results without the macron. The opposite does not seem to be true though.

1206:

This is English Knowledge. マツダ has officially registered their company name in Japan as マツダ, and as Mazda in other countries. That is their prerogative. One can confirm those registrations at appropriate institutions. Personal names are also officially registered. Names differing from that

103:

In my experience, texts written for the lay person often do not include macrons, while more professional texts do use macrons. You gain a level of credibility by applying diacritics where appropriate. I would hope that Knowledge would strive to be as professional and detailed as possible.

1235:

It does not always come down to romanization. It is about officially registered names. For the US, it is defined in a birth certificate. For Japan, it is in a koseki (family registery). I can not speak for other countries. Company names are officially registered at appropriate government

2175:

expecting. I would also like to see this extended to the names of people as well. But I realise that this is a contentious issue and one that is hard to achieve consensus on without pages and pages of circular arguments (see above!). So for now, I'm just going to go with the status quo.

683:'s argument about information loss. It's not difficult for a reader who doesn't understand what macrons mean for them to ignore them and read the word anyway. But for a reader who does understand the meaning, if only "Tokyo" is written then they are unable to infer correct pronunciation. 3337:

Right; so, Google found the redirected (with macrons) name from a non-macron search. I never claimed that Google was doing magic; but, that if the pages are set up correctly (with non-macron redirects, like the MoS states), then searches find the correct page. That can be surprising,

2849:

in finding anything other than the page they redirect to, unless they are used (rather than just sitting there after someone has gone and changed the spelling in all the articles which did use the redirect). They are also of no use if the search is for the article they redirect to.

4240:

go back and look at my response to your complaints that "pages use a mixture of macrons and no macrons". I did point out, didn't I, that "Using a mixture greatly increases the chances of information being found on either a search-engine search or on a find-on-this-page search."?

3858:

Nevertheless, Knowledge allows diacritics. How accessible are the articles that these redirects point to: Category:Redirects_from_title_without_diacritics ? (Internal link not working; please enter manually) There are a lot there. I looked at a few of them, and I can not type them

3303:

is likely how Google got there, from the link it contains. Special:List redirects is likely another page with a link Google could use to get there. Neither of them, of course, appears on the What links here list of the article you created, your redirect page, nor any other page.

2094:

wrong. You think that "most common usage" creates inconsistency and reflects one person's opinion over another. I think that it reflects reality, in which the city is most commonly known as Tokyo and obscure topics about Japan are mostly known by professionals who use diacritics.

4447:"most readers"? Please, only speak for yourself. As for not finding the information, it works the other way as well. When the macron is missing when it should be there, I may assume that the information is merely not there. When in fact it may really be there, just "misspelled". 410:

Not only JR. All of the train lines that I am aware of use macrons. It is simply the more correct, formal, spelling. All other forms are abbreviations, short-hand. Over my many years in Japan, I have noticed an increasing amount of signs switching to the macron version for

3562:

I am not Pete, but I have tested it. If Google treats "color" and "colour" the same, then the results should be the same. A search for "color" returns 864,000,000 hits. A search for "colour" returns 177,000,000 hits. That is a very big discrepancy. Thus, my conclusion.

1236:

institutions. International businesses still need to re-register their company name in foriegn companies. These fillings are freely available for confirmation. As godzilla / gojira is not a location or person, I do not have any strong feelings on the issue either way.

2122:

I have tried to argue in favor for macrons because I think it is more professional, accurate, and consistent. By removing macrons in their entirety, we can at least be consistent, while losing professional and accurate. It is a compromise, but it at least has merits.

2758:

Response: Knowledge has a great redirect system. This can, and often is, used to help people find specific articles even if they do not get the spelling exactly right. Even if the entry title does not use diacritics, the main text should be allowed to use them when

136:

2834:. How does this make finding the entry difficult? As you pointed out earlier, redirects are not automatic. Of course not. And misspelled words are not automatically corrected either. Fix a spelling or add a redirect as you see fit. That is the nature of Knowledge. 625:

audio clips to pronounce each word? I think that the "popular" English pronunciation of karaoke, karate, geisha (maybe), and some other words are not correct. These words all have common pronunciations... and, don't say that we should rely on the dictionary:

549:

finally relented. I don't think I would have been able to explain to the US immigration people why Naiya and Neier were equal. (People familiar with Japanese will also appreciate the strange looks I get whenever I respond to a request for my last name) ;-)

4219:

Assume that the page regularly uses macrons in the title and in the main text. As a reader, it should be clear, especially from the title, that the word is spelled with a macron and there would not be a need to search without the macron in the first place.

2768:

We have lots of them now, when people have moved articles without diacritics to articles with diacritics, because the software leaves a redirect behind when the move is made. Redirects are woefully lacking in articles that were new after going to Unicode.

2861:

If you are dissatisfied with current redirect or even a lack of one, then fix it. If you have any specific examples in mind and would like to discuss them, raise the issues here or even on my user talk page. I want Knowledge to be the best that it can be.

369:

Usually, when Japanese people or groups uses Latin script for personal or company, they tend to be sans macrons (i.e. Junichiro Koizumi, Chieko Nohno or Noono, etc. JR uses macrons, but for the train station names. "Tōkyō Station" is used that way because

4557:

article due to other pages linking to it using the term "Hokkaido," but this would probably take a while to occur naturally (naturally meaning without Google bombing). Google does indeed consider "Hokkaidō" and "Hokkaido" different words. Currently the

772:. Adding macrons will not stop English speakers from slaughtering Japanese, anyway. Unless we are going to get much more in-depth about naming articles after their pronunciation, no one will be able to tell the difference in pronunciation between, say, 1307:

Tōkyō is not known in English to me as Tokyo. Professionally edited, scholarly texts do often use the macron version. If you insist on Tokyo, then Ōita and Kyūshū should also become Oita and Kyushu, respectively. Be consistant and remove macrons from

490:

As for author's choosing their romanized name, 大野晋 (Ōno Susumu) uses several forms in his published books. I know of at least Ohno and Ono. (I can give specific book information tonight.) Regardless, his name is still Susumu Ōno (in English order).

2806:

We will have to disagree on that. There is no "English alphabet". It is a script, one of several used to write the English language, as well as other languages. As for "26 letters", do not forget about upper and lower case, as well as punctuation.

2419:

were to become notable enough to warrant a Knowledge article of his own, you would have the barest whiff of an argument. He, after all, was apparently born in Japan. Nonetheless, it is still no contest; the type of thing that would be given

4552:

redirect page will fall from its number one position for the "Hokkaido" query on Google once Google reindexes that pages and discovers it has become a redirect page. Also in time I believe that a Google search for "Hokkaido" will turn up the

1819:

A distinguishing between "Tokyo" and "Tōkyō Station" implies that they are not related to each other. It must be a fluke that "Tōkyō Station" just happens to be in "Tokyo". Actually, the English sign merely says "Tōkyō", not "Tōkyō Station".

2713:

So is trying to second guess the inconsistent guidelines that currently exist. When a macron should be there, I expect to find it. Having to search a second time by special casing it without the macron is time consuming and not very useful.

3052:

as the first hit, but that's because the article was only moved to the macronned form yesterday. The question is what happens to the search results when Google recrawls. The answer is undoubtedly that the redirect will fall down the list.

3410:

according to the way I've broadened and narrowed my search with exact phrases, with and/or/not options, whatever. Being able to find the same wikipedia article by doing a one-word search for the article's name, with or without macrons

2529:

Gene Nygaard wrote: "not only are the macron letters not part of the English alphabet". Sorry to nitpick, but we had this conversation earlier. What "English alphabet"? The Latin script, one of several scripts used to write the English

3162:

No, that isn't plausible. It only indexes the page itself, else every article in Knowledge would be a hit for "Toolbox", for example. In fact, it has already been proved wrong with my (Ichijodani chess) example. Google did find the

1195:

for an example of how a Japanese person writes a Mazda article (I know, I should fix it up instead of just complaining). And the fact that we would be changing Osaka to Ōsaka, but TV Osaka, Osaka Gas, and others would remain the same.

3375:. Your conclusion does not follow from the premises. Many Boolean searches which would never find the target of the redirect, searching without macrons, will also not find Knowledge articles which would be relevant. Google finds 3118:

redirect page, are already known by Google because they were once the main article page and had many links to them. Redirect pages like these Google already knows about and can be found in a Google search. If you were to create the

4690:

Of course, most of our searches aren't for a single word. Let's assume further that I'd read about some place called Ichijodani where an archaelogical dig found some Japanese chess pieces, so I search for Ichijodani and chess on

2340:

There is no Japanese word to be romanized in the name of Apolo Anton Ohno. I don't care how you might japanize (whatever the term is), there is no place for then taking japanized version and romanizing it back into English.

4866:

I do not think it would be a stretch to say that you can always find a non-macron version of a word, and it will most likely be used far more often than the macron version. It is just easier to type. And yet we are changing

3500:

Oh, for Pete's sake. Don't just make things up out of thin air. Did you do any testing at all? Google handles it. Try this advanced search for the word "color" in that spelling plus the exact phrase "given the number

223:" was just plain wrong; misspelled. The same goes here. "Kyoto" without the macron is truly just as much a misspelling as is Kioto or Kiouto. Sumo and daimyo, without macrons, are just as wrong as is "pinata" instead of " 4853:

I realize that some of these points have been discusses ad nauseum in the interim, including the ones for cities that are most under discussion here, but it's obvious that a lot of thought went into those bullet points.

2432:. Correctness isn't the criterion there. We go by how he is best known in English, and in most cases that is going to be the very same way the subject himself anglicizes (somewhat distinct from romanizing) his name. 1207:

registration are nicknames or pseudonyms. I have a preferred spelling of my name (both in English and in Japanese). While I use it about 99.9% of the time, I can not use it for official documents. It is not my choice.

4526:

on Knowledge turn up in the search results? Or will Google consider them different words? Will someone who only knows the name "Hokkaido" but nothing about macrons be able to find the article through a search engine?

3005:

You can also see it in the fact that an advanced search on Google for all of the words Ryūkyū but without the words Ryukyu gets 12,400 hits. If Google always treated Ryūkyū as including Ryukyu, that number would be

4879:

and related changes fit into the above bullet points? "Kyushu" is listed in my Merriam-Webster dictionary. I definately prefer the macron version. However, I do not think that it properly reflects the given points.

2795:. The English alphabet has 26 letters. It is not incorrect to write in English using those 26 letters. We have every bit as much right to establish our own identity in the language we use as does anyone else. 3813:

best that we can." We know already that it won't be cleared up by creating redirects, for precisely the reasons stated in Gene Nygaards 1:00 comment. This is not color/colour. Mandating the macrons is a choice.

3929:

the use of them in titles doesn't seem to me to have drastic negative effects. The overall issue of whether that policy is good or not is one which may need to be reopened (but, not necessarily on this page).

975:

I think that some of the examples you mentioned are company names and therefore would not be changed to their macronised versions. However a company wishes to spell its own name in English is its own business.

3101:

A non-macron search will still be successful as long as there is a redirect page. Yes, I know they do not always exist. Adding them where needed is part of our job. As always, Knowledge is a work in progress.

235:; they're not even in the same clan. In order to be more professional, academic, accurate, and sensitive to global multiculturalism, I think we truly need to move away from Anglocentric ideas of spelling. 184:

Why does there need to be a page explaining what's found below every edit box on Knowledge? That's all you need to know in order to use macrons if you don't know the alt-code off the top of your head. ···

3782:

As Knowledge editors, we do the best that we can by providing redirects where possible. If you think Google could do a better job indexing, then perhaps you should take it up with them. A reader of the

1603:

are two separate articles, two separate things, and therefore require two separate approaches to naming conventions. For the former, we choose Tokyo because it is official (the Metropolitan Government

962:

It's excessive. It's not really English. You've got to draw the line somewhere. Let me know when you want to seriously discuss where to draw the line. Knowledge is not a diacritic encyclopedia.--

3062:

I'm speechless; all I can think of, Bendono, is "duuuhhh"! Note further that, until yesterday at least (and even so far today), and for over a year prior to that, the article itself had included,

2979:

A Google search for all the words and including the macron: Ichijōdani chess. This gets 16 hits (only 2 of which are originally displayed, both going to , one directly and one from the redirect at

836:

transcription of the source language is the best that can be done. Either be consistant and put macrons where they belong for all words, or remove them all in entirety, including Ōita and Kyūshū.

3517:

Find search, I won't get any hits, but you've consistently dismissed that as of little importance. At least in this particular search, I have the title itself showing me the variant spelling.

4838:

In all cases, redirects should be put in place for the form(s) not used in the title to make sure people can easily find (or link to) the article no matter which form of the word they use.

4756:

more effective to use the more commonly-used term as the article title and to use it throughout the article as opposed to using it in the title of a redirect page pointing to the article.

3719:? A search for "color" will give more than 75 times the number of results as a search for "colour." Also, a Google search for incoming links will not necessarily show them all. Consider 629:

does not list the correct pronunciation in any of the four options. When I consider that, then, I have a hard time endorsing dictionary references and common usage over "correctness".

2084:

accepted for only place names and / or people, it would be a great advancement. I still wish for consistency; however the issue could be re-evaluated for other cases at a later time.

487:

forced to spell out my full name on many occasions, both in the US and in Japan. My official name is defined on my birth certificate. Abe's name is defined on his koseki, in Japanese.

4562:

article can very easily be found with the query "Hokkaido" on Google as the redirect to it is the number one hit. I am curious to see if its position will after Google reindexes it.

4817: 4139:. Your redirect won't change anything, and wouldn't do so even if it were piped through your new redirect, as long as what is visibly displayed is the Ichijōdani with a macron. 4406:

That's rather disingenuous, because you know that if it is put that way, you and others will simply say that it is always appropriate and go change every appearance you can find.

2156:

9. Likewise, prefecture names should include macrons in all cases, except for Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto. The capitals of these three prefectures are well-known around the world already.

2119:

It is not merely common usage that creates inconsistency. It is Tokyo lined up next to Kyūshū. The common usage would make both without macrons. This is what I find inconsistent.

21: 324:

While the macron spellings may be based on the Japanese characters, they are not actually the "Japanese spellings" because the Japanese language does not use Roman characters.

4179:

True. However, the reverse is also true. When I go to find words with macrons and they are not there, I can not find them. The lack of macrons hides that information from me.

539:"Nisikawa" is merely his preferred version of what the state dictates is written as "Nishikawa". I believe that the state disallows macrons in the required pseudo-Hepburn. -- 156:

I really hope that something can be done to improve this situation. I see so much untapped potential for Knowledge. Please do not let this continue to hold it back any more.

2725:

Yes, the guidelines quite legitimately restrict your use of them. How much we should to do so is, of course, debatable; the fact that it is proper for us to do so is not.

2276:

Also, we have a disagreement on the criteria to determine the more common form for personal names. I believe we should clarify why the following are NOT to be macronned:

433:- Also, do not worry about readers not understanding romanization/and or pronunciation; it will always be their fault on Knowledge. Along with non-standard romanizations, 4905:

I also favor non-macronned form over macronned form for all articles unless macronned form is more common than non-macronned form or non-macroned form creates ambiguity.

2702:

I don't have macrons on my computer keyboard, and finding and distinguishing all those dinky little squiggles cluttering up the edit box is difficult and time-consuming.

574:

While macron spellings may be based on the Japanese characters, they are not actually the "Japanese spellings" because Japanese language does not use Roman characters

4647:

However, even if the redirect did exist, the Google search would only find that article redirected to from the redirect page with the Ichijodani spelling. The search

4487:

Nothing comes for free. Knowledge is a work in progress. If you think that a redirect, sort key, or some other information is lacking, wrong, or missing, then add it.

3920:

redirect to Ōita still comes up) so articles titled in macrons seem to be the least of our troubles... (and, ironically, the fuse which set off this whole discussion).

3870:

What about redirects do you not find sufficiently accessible? When I search for "Kyūshū" or "Kyushu", I end up at the same page. I think that is more than accessible.

3405:. Note also that it doesn't matter if your Boolean search in Google is for (Ichijodani AND chess) or for ((Ichijōdani AND chess), those searches will never find the 1699:

The intention of a macron is to convey pronunction. However, it will be lost upon many people. The same is true of other diacritics. Look at this very partial list:

4377:

Knowledge is in the business of providing information. It makes gather up all this information, and then deliberately hide it from view, keep it from being found.

1674:

I'm sorry, but it is. What is the point of adding macrons at all if they are irrelevant to pronunciation? In that case, we may as well discard all macrons forever.

4597:

Put "Ichijodani" (without the quotation marks) in the box on your Knowledge page, and hit the "Search" button (or the "Go" button, for that matter, in this case).

4503:

I don't know enough about how the search engines work to discuss it constructively, but it raises alarm bells and I'd like to hear what other people have to say.

4313:

Being able to create the characters usually isn't the problem. To what extext it is proper to use non-English characters in English writing is the real issue.

4697:

Notice the domain name? Good to see that some people in the .jp domain know how to write in English, even if English Knowledge often has difficulty with that.

4429:

To me, Shinzo Abe and Tokyo are simply misspelled, period. It is extremely grating on the eyes and makes me think that Knowledge is not a serious encyclopedia.

1505:

Japanese words, without exception. I do not desire non-macron versions, but I prefer consistency by remove them from all than the current mix. Be consistent.

1429:

You are conflating society's "common usage" with what is "common usage" to one person (yourself). The naming conventions are not asking you for your opinion.

1191:

when you talk about companies. Despite what the page says about gods, no Japanese person will know what you're talking about unless you call it Matsuda. See

65:

I'm sure some of you are getting tired of the issue. Please bear with me. I am extremely dissatisfied with the current style guide. I started with a post on

1785:

Macrons are part of the spelling. Actually pronunciation is a separate issue. That is what IPA is for. I do not argue for macrons for phonological reasons.

424:"Japanese names are officially recorded in a koseki (family registry). This can not contain a Latin spelling. Thus, there is no official Latin spelling." - 4628: 4136: 3800: 3792: 3788: 3406: 3402: 3397: 3164: 3114:

order for Google to be aware of the redirect pages, Google will need to have found a link to the page at some point in time. Some redirect pages, like the

1380: 1706:

Quote: "we may as well discard all macrons forever". Are you of an opinion to completely remove macrons from all Japanese words? Put simply, all or none.

107:

It is easy for a reader to ignore a macron. However, it is much more difficult to infer a macron if it is not there altogether. This is information loss.

4694:

I get four hits (only two displayed without hitting display all of them, because three of them are the same thing). None of them are from any Knowledge.

4198:

if you search for a word on a page with a macron and don't find it, you ought to have enough sense to next try to search for it without the macron. The

1968:

I realize I'm getting a bit testy and I don't mean to offend. I hope we're still in the realm of useful debate, but if I've left the arena, let me know.

366:

If you are talking about numerals, those are Hindu-Arabic - The rare times Roman characters are seen are borrowed words/expressions/names from the west.

219:

to Anglo-centrize them. Even when I disapproved of accents, essets, and that C-with-a-curlyque thing, I knew that a word like "quinceanera" instead of "

994:

Also, all the city names you quoted look fine to me. As long as the non-diacritic versions redirect to the correct place, then I don't see the problem.

2604:

Correct. She was born in LA. She is American. The case seems clear to me. Go with whatever her official (passport) name is. I assume it is Yuna Ito.

4933: 4884: 4858: 4846: 4794: 4781: 4770: 4760: 4737: 4712: 4665: 4566: 4531: 4517: 4507: 4491: 4481: 4451: 4440: 4421: 4410: 4392: 4381: 4365: 4350: 4331: 4317: 4289: 4263: 4245: 4224: 4206: 4183: 4172: 4143: 4084: 4028: 3987: 3981: 3933: 3874: 3817: 3807: 3796: 3735: 3654: 3593: 3583: 3567: 3521: 3463: 3422: 3342: 3308: 3266: 3232: 3194: 3157: 3148: 3131: 3106: 3070: 3057: 3043: 3014: 2964: 2927: 2910: 2894: 2882: 2866: 2854: 2838: 2823: 2811: 2799: 2784: 2773: 2743: 2732: 2718: 2706: 2695: 2684: 2643: 2608: 2575: 2538: 2518: 2509: 2475: 2446: 2436: 2394: 2345: 2331: 2219: 2208: 2192: 2179: 2127: 2098: 2088: 2069: 2051: 2039: 2013: 1972: 1929: 1919: 1869: 1824: 1789: 1772: 1750: 1732: 1710: 1678: 1657: 1640: 1615: 1564: 1535: 1509: 1478: 1433: 1408: 1387: 1362: 1353: 1328: 1316: 1299: 1284: 1259: 1240: 1226: 1211: 1200: 1179: 1165: 1111: 1028: 1009: 1000: 966: 840: 818: 809: 792: 742: 725: 712: 694: 662: 633: 601: 553: 543: 495: 441: 419: 377: 361: 328: 303: 277: 239: 204: 190: 175: 160: 4417:

Absolutely. I think it is unprofessional, inconsistant, and plain wrong. These are topics that I care a lot about. And I want to make them better.

3228:

899 hits. Pretty obvious, isn't it. There aren't 899 articles that have both words from any other way. What is your secret word, anyway, Neier?

1161:

So how exactly will you draw the line, Bendono & others? What is your criteria, and how do you propose to change the rules? I'm all ears.--

357:. English as used in Japan (en-JP), such as Tōkyō Station, does use macrons. Tōkyō is not the "Japanese spelling"; it is the "English spelling". 3724: 146:

At present, pages use a mixture of macrons and no macrons. This seems inconsistent and only invites confusion and misunderstanding by readers.

4339:

At present, pages use a mixture of macrons and no macrons. This seems inconsistent and only invites confusion and misunderstanding by readers.

3299:

which Google indexed, the one you go to if you click on the Google results. What's that first sentence, right under the article's name? And

1746:

prefer no macrons at all. May I interpret your statement ("I'd be forced to say that using no macrons at all is better") as support for this?

1043:

and other company names are not macronned? ALL company names? So you're NOT going to macron everything any more? How about personal names?

4324: 1700: 708:

macrons in the names of train stations. I think the argument above about JR should be put aside for now and we should concentrate on others.

686:

Also, can somebody summarise the argument for using the macronless versions for Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto, sumo etc? I'm slowly being convinced by

3035:

as the very first hit. What is the problem? With or without the macrons, it finds the same article. A properly placed redirect redirects to

2153:

8. City names should include macrons in all cases, except for Tokyo, Osaka, and Kyoto. These cities are well-known around the world already.

4372:

Using a mixture greatly increases the chances of information being found on either a search-engine search or on a find-on-this-page search.

1404:

What is common for one person is not for another. To me, Tōkyō and Shinzō are both common and the only forms that I would expect to find.

4773:

on the Knowledge page, that wouldn't make a Google search for Ichijodani find this article; that will only happen if people actually see

2830:

I do not know what you mean. When I search for Kyushu in Google, the first hit is . There is an automatic redirect to the real article:

1312:

Japanese words. It is not my preferance, but at least it is consistant. Many publishing houses have similar policies for no diacritics.

996:* Anyway, we're just talking about the policy for Japanese articles so let's not expand this discussion any wider than it needs to be. 2188:-is- a long standing policy here. (for better or worse). The new additions simply clarify the dividing point of the special cases. 2923:

I read it. And tried an example to see if I could reproduce the same results. I could not. Below I will try both Ryūkyū and Ryukyu.

3144:

page. I don't know what kind of rating it would end up with; but the information goes into Google somehow (see my comment below).

1703:. How many of these help you with pronunciation? It may help some people, but I doubt it would mean too much to the average reader. 2116:

previous one was Jun'ichirō Koizumi? I can only speculate, but I would guess they are about as well known as Kyūshū or Hokkaidō.

252:

The argument is superficial, because the romaji (and hence macrons) are not part of the Japanese language at all. (In Japanese,

3716: 690:'s argument that using the macroned versions across the board would be a good idea. What we have right now is a bit of a mess. 3867:

beyond the scope of the Japan MoS. If you propose it elsewhere, please let me know so that I can be part of that conversation.

3712: 72:

I would like to advocate macrons in all context -- including names and places -- where appropriate. Thus, I would like to see

51: 17: 4841:

We should use generally-accepted print and online dictionaries to determine if a word is "generally accepted" in any of the

4617:

Now, try an advanced search on Google for that word, limiting it to site:en.wikipedia.org (Ichijodani site:en.wikipedia.org)

572:(with my insertions of "" and ""). Putting aside for a moment, is certainly true (however, keep reading). And secondly: 1861:

why the city page needs to be at Tokyo instead of Tōkyō. Romanization does not equal English. Established English should

4906: 3650:

and of those three are on Knowledge (none containing "color") and one outside Knowledge (also not containing "color").

2429: 3190:)", will it not? That's what Google indexes, and gives great weight because it is the opening paragraph of the page. 1768:

now. If you're a defender of pronunciation, honestly, it would be better off ending up at Shigejirou than Shigejirō.

3383:

the redirect has been created, and iff other parts of the search do not exclude that article. Like I said before, "

748:

As for the others, I am looking over Neier's comment above, and the fact that none of the English pronunciations of

4285:. The find-on-this-page search is something to be concerned with; but, I think the google problem is much larger. 42: 1531:

forms are less common than the macron forms, and I think we could spell Kyūshū as Kyushu for consistency's sake.

570:

The argument is superficial, because the romaji (and hence macrons) are not part of the Japanese language at all

4361:

article, his name is spelled "Shinzo" 7 times, while "Shinzō" 11 times. That's not saying much for consistancy.

4466: 3505: 2241:

The use of an English dictionary is obvious, or else you end up adding macrons such as in the following words:

580:, etc., either. Rather, it happens that L1 writers of Japanese usually do so with what is largely a mixture of 1560:

I can accept that logic. May I take that a vote to remove macrons from all Japanese terms, without exception?

4708:, which Google will find only if you put the macron on the word. But that search doesn't find the .jp hits. 2691:

True. But that will not help you find Kyūshū, Ōita, or any of the other many places currently using macrons.

2204:(Kōbe was added recently. Please add other major/internationally renowned cities if there are any others.)-- 910:

Indiscriminate use of diacritics and local romanizations in city names would perhaps require you to do this:

4661:

populated categories, where things won't be found even when the indexing problem is that far into the word.

4076:

This one was, of course, a test—to see if you had any real interest in making Knowledge better. You failed.

985: 734:

You have to change your keyboard layout to enter macrons. There is a page explaining how to type macrons at

354: 3098:

If a page includes macrons, whether it is title and or full text, Google will pick it up given enough time.

2906:

about four hours before you posted this reply; you probably just hadn't gotten that far down the page yet.

2077:

Thank you for the mini summary. I think it generally reflects some of the points that I have tried to make.

4835:

English dialect in a non-macronned form, the non-macronned form should be used in the title and body text.

3504:

The first hit I get, right at the top of the four displayed out of 19 found, is the Knowledge article at

3262:

careful when setting up the experiment. The only link from my user page was to the MācrōnName article.

3456: 2780:

Knowledge is, and always will be, a work in progress. If you think a redirect is missing, then add one.

3225:

Here's something that should make my point perfectly clear. Do a Google search for (Kyōto Redirected)

735: 576:(my insertions of "" and ""). Again, putting aside , is right. And the Japanese language doesn't use 168: 4540:

article on Knowledge within the first 1000 hits, but the number one hit for "Hokkaido" is the former

4168:

that information from a browser's "find on this page" search if that search is done without macrons.

3372: 3127:, Google would not index the redirect page unless another page provided a link to the redirect page. 3036: 2471:

I agree with Gene. My examples are meant to show that they are BAD candidates for macronizations.--

3863:

from my keyboard. However, I can type in the non-diacritic version and be redirected automatically.

232: 3153:

Oh, good point. I didn't think of "What links here" link. That should get it into Google's index.

3124: 3120: 4199: 3179: 2171:

place names are to use the macronised equivalent, if applicable. This is the current status quo.

1908: 2374:, and his father Yuki Ohno ("correctly" romanized as Yuki Ōno) is Japanese. This is similar to 756:

seems to be a good indicator of why we shouldn't be using the macronned forms indiscriminately.

153:

I would like to simply all of these exceptions by simply allowing diacritics where appropriate.

4400:

I would like to simply all of these exceptions by simply allowing diacritics where appropriate.

3728: 3711:

If a search for "color" will also search similar words such as "colour," wouldn't a search for

3187: 3175: 2984: 2416: 2301: 1076: 430: 4778: 4709: 4662: 4478: 4437: 4407: 4378: 4347: 4314: 4242: 4203: 4169: 4140: 4081: 3984: 3925: 3651: 3590: 3518: 3419: 3305: 3229: 3191: 3067: 3011: 2961: 2907: 2879: 2851: 2820: 2796: 2770: 2729: 2703: 2681: 2506: 2433: 2387: 2379: 2371: 2342: 1765: 1653:

Tokyo is no more English than Tōkyō. Spelling and pronunciation are entirely separate issues.

1636:, it seems you will never accept it since no one is regulating the English name for the city. 866: 299:

difficult to type diacritics. There are a lot of old policies that are not relevant any more.

97: 3418:

have in fact been made, doesn't show anything of any real relevance to real-world searches.

3183: 2564: 2421: 2383: 2367: 2277: 2146: 1612: 1344:

the authority to establish an official English rendering. Here is another link for thought:

1325: 1046: 659: 438: 374: 325: 262: 228: 4327:. What makes them "non-English characters"? They are being used to write words in English. 2163:...and in the "Prefectures and macrons" discussion above the consensus was reinforced that 143:

Knowledge is Unicode-based. There should not be any technological reasons holding it back.

4303:

Knowledge is Unicode-based. There should not be any technological reasons holding it back.

3174:

The actual explanation is much more mundane. Let's assume Neier created a redirect from

1865:

take precedence. Do you think the Japanese Knowledge should move the ピザ article to ピッツァ?

2728:

It isn't necessarily "fixing" the spelling if someone comes along later and changes it.

4637:. Doing that search, I'd just assume Knowledge doesn't have anything of interest to me. 3577: 3049: 3032: 3028: 2980: 2176: 1595:

uses macrons for Tokyo Station doesn't mean macrons should be used for Tokyo. Bendono,

1592: 1006: 997: 871: 761: 691: 687: 236: 220: 1607:

as official as you can get) - We chose macrons for the latter becasue it is official (

953: 4930: 4855: 4821: 4734: 4528: 4504: 3814: 3795:(thanks to a recent redirect by Jecowa). Give it a day or two for Google to process. 3572:

I think there must be a page somewhere (not necessarily on Knowledge) linking to the

3054: 2680:

I don't have an edit screen up when I want to type something into the Go/Search box.

2640: 2515: 2443: 2293: 2285: 2095: 2066: 2036: 1969: 1926: 1866: 1769: 1729: 1675: 1637: 1430: 1296: 1197: 1066: 1056: 886: 815: 789: 709: 185: 4929:

I don't expect general audience to know much about Japanese romanization scheme. --

4024:

Done. Feel free to add them yourself, too. It is easy and takes less than a minute.

3803:. What else do you want done? Surely you could have added these redirects yourself. 948: 4881: 4652: 4488: 4448: 4418: 4389: 4362: 4328: 4260: 4221: 4180: 4025: 3871: 3804: 3564: 3460: 3103: 3040: 2983:). None of the 16 hits are even in the .ja domain; in particular it does not find 2924: 2891: 2863: 2835: 2808: 2781: 2740: 2715: 2692: 2661:

My response to Bendono's arguments (in italics here) from the top of this section:

2605: 2572: 2535: 2472: 2428:

one and only "correct" romanization is of no relevance whatsover when it comes to

2391: 2328: 2205: 2124: 2085: 2048: 2010: 1916: 1821: 1786: 1747: 1707: 1654: 1633: 1561: 1506: 1475: 1405: 1350: 1313: 1281: 1237: 1223: 1208: 1176: 1162: 1025: 989: 963: 837: 806: 722: 680: 492: 416: 358: 353:

Actually, to a limited extent, Japanese does use the Latin script. Please refer to

300: 274: 157: 4876: 4872: 4765:

Google, and many other search engines, only indexes the text in Knowledge that is

2831: 2149:(which is the written on the basis of long-term consensus) currently states that: 923: 4757: 4563: 4537: 4523: 4514: 3732: 3580: 3154: 3128: 2321: 2317: 1532: 1384: 1359: 1256: 1101: 1096: 928: 739: 658:

article starts "Tokyo (東京, Tōkyō..." I think the bases are covered well enough.

261:

commmon in English, we honor it. At least that's what I believe it says in the

201: 172: 110:

There are a few counter-arguments that I have heard and would like to reply to.

50:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

3647: 3171:

in its "What links here" page. Yet that search did not find the Shogi article.

853:

Indiscriminate use of macrons and romaji would perhaps require you to do this:

4791: 4522:

Well, what I was asking is, if I type Hokkakido into Google, will the article

4286: 3930: 3589:

spelling. This is just some synonym built into Google's complex algorithms.

3339: 3263: 3145: 2313: 2297: 2289: 2216: 2189: 1091: 1071: 1061: 913: 881: 630: 598: 550: 540: 215: 93: 66: 4655:

which visibly displays the word Ichijōdani in its piped link to that article.

1912: 3048:

Look at Jecowa's comment below. The Google search returns the redirect from

2751:

Diacritics in entry titles make it difficult for people to find the article.

2305: 1081: 861: 129:

Diacritics in entry titles make it difficult for people to find the article.

3379:

the article which is the target of the redirect, and it finds that article

3182:

Google can easily get to the redirect page Neier created—for example, from

2258: 1137: 943: 891: 224: 4849:

can be used as a secondary source, but should always be verified as above.

3296: 1458:

Just like you, I am also a part of society. Common usage is usage that is

4644:. Maybe Google would have found this article if the redirect did exist. 4541: 4280:

Sometimes using the browser search function, I cannot find words spelled

3115: 2996:

A Google search for all the words (Ichijodani chess) does find that page.

2568: 2390:

from this Japanese romanization, macronization, and over-correctionizm.--

2375: 2309: 2281: 1219: 1086: 1051: 876: 738:. It's being deleted in about a week, so read it while it is still here. 266: 85: 4469:

so that people can find the information when they go look in a category

626: 2167:

Tokyo, Osaka and Kyoto are to be written on Knowledge without macrons.

2047:

I replied to this point in the previous comment. Please refer to that.

1040: 981: 977: 918: 856: 3980:

that still appears red on the page as this one does when I post it):

4868: 2262: 2254: 2250: 1321: 1273: 1142: 1132: 1127: 938: 933: 901: 3095:

Ryūkyū / Ryukyu was your example that I tried. My observations are:

2819:

including the number of terms in the search and the type of search.

2359: 4536:

As of writing a search for "Hokkaido" on Google will not yeild the

1345: 4132: 3784: 3393: 3168: 2386:. What it is, is you need to make a rule, specifically excluding 2231: 1277: 1252: 1188: 655: 270: 253: 89: 77: 73: 4627:

Yet the English Knowledge has, for six months, had an article at

435:

standard romanizations always follow the nonstandard romanization

4284:

in English without macrons, such as meter/metre </levity: -->

2424:

in a court of law. Your warped notion of which romanization is

2270: 2266: 2246: 2242: 2235: 1152: 1147: 1122: 1117: 896: 257: 81: 4323:

Here is a very small list of "English" words using diacritics:

721:

That is probably the easiest way to enter them for most users.

4640:

Of course, this is one of those cases where a redirect didn't

4622:

Any hits? Of course not, or I wouldn't be using this example.

4346:

pronunciation, but all too often it seems to be lost on them.

4127:

a Google advanced search for all the words (Ichijodani chess)

3576:

article with the linking word(s) containing the term "color."

3388:

a Google advanced search for all the words (Ichijodani chess)

3380: 2009:

This is a heated discussion. I do not take offense so easily.

1470:

common. I thought that we had covered this discussion earlier.

1379:

I thought we were to title our articles with consideration of

29: 4728:

Regardless of my personal views on the diacritics, this is a

3646:

Furthermore, Google itself shows only four pages linking to

2985:

https://www.city.fukui.lg.jp/lang/english/kankou/ichijo.html

1349:

Why honor Tokyo, but then choose Ōita? That is inconsisant.

4733:

drawing board and allow macrons in text but not in titles?

2202:

Please vote on Kōbe above. Point 8 may need to be revised.

1358:

Why not honor both Tokyo and Oita with sans macron titles?

4831:

If the word in question is in general or local use in any

4700:

There is, of course, a Knowledge article containing both

3720: 2957: 2666:

Argument: It is difficult or annoying to type diacritics.

2571:

and any other non-Japanese person with a Japanese name.--

114:

Argument: It is difficult or annoying to type diacritics.

2987:

which does include both words, if you remove the macron.

2953: 2949: 3300: 1192: 4818:

Knowledge talk:Requests for mediation/Japanese Macrons

4080:

changing word order or dropping part of article name.

3027:

I just tried it. A normal search for "Ryūkyū" returns

1925:

dismisses its use in the title as a foreign language.

3031:

as the very first hit. A search for "Ryukyu" returns

4911:

names of Knowledge articles should be optimized for

265:, based on what we decided before. Therefore, it's 3791:link. Searching for "Ichijodani" now redirects to 3455:The strings "Ichijodani" and "Ichijōdani" are not 1857:"Japan can not dictate English spelling." This is 269:(not Kōdansha), based on official spelling. It's 3715:yield the same number of results as a search for 3648:http://en.wikipedia.org/Queen%27s_Colour_Squadron 3039:. That is the expectation that I would have had. 4769:. Even if you were to use a piped link such as 4607:Now, just try a Google search for the same word? 4357:There are better examples, but look at . In the 3578:term only appears in links pointing to this page 1024:I am in complete agreement with Bobo12345 here. 2159:10. Island names should always include macrons. 1907:also note that there is already a redirect for 4816:A lot of these issues were also considered at 4582:(edit conflict, not bothering to indent more) 3123:article and create a redirect page to it from 1466:of that society. If there is variation, it is 4820:. The proposal that was accepted (written by 2639:Everyone is agreeing here, so let's move on. 8: 4828:Macrons should be used in article body text. 4786:Google will apparently index pages from the 3924:(Ōhira and Oshika are both mentioned in the 1383:and official names, not of scholarly texts. 4388:I have no idea what you are trying to say. 4135:article, even though that article links to 3401:AND you have now created the redirect from 3396:article, even though that article links to 3066:both the Ryūkyū and the Ryukyu spellings. 2358:You are wrong about that. See the article 4457:Oh, and one major omission by Bodono. It 2139:Just to summarise the current position on 4069:Half done. What's that other thing that 2873:In other words, using macrons needlessly 150:Knowledge is not a serious encyclopedia. 4847:List of English words of Japanese origin 4771:Ichijōdani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 4635:foolishly, needlessly hidden information 4629:Ichijōdani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 4137:Ichijōdani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 3982:Ichijodani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 3801:Ichijōdani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 3797:Ichijodani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 3793:Ichijōdani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 3789:Ichijōdani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 3407:Ichijōdani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 3403:Ichijōdani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 3398:Ichijōdani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 3165:Ichijōdani Asakura Family Historic Ruins 3140:I think that Google will index from the 4651:, even if the redirect did exist, the 4548:article. Over time I believe that the 69:. There are a few relevant responses. 48:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4325:List of English words with diacritics 1701:List of English words with diacritics 627:http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/karaoke 273:(not Tōkyō), based on common usage.-- 7: 4875:, to name but one example. How does 4473:, and most of the time it is simply 1218:Absolutely, and it's supposed to be 4544:article which now redirects to the 1222:, not godzilla if you use romaji.-- 984:. For this reason I did not rename 3787:article can click on the provided 2948:Which Google did you use? Was it 1322:http://www.metro.tokyo.jp/ENGLISH/ 28: 2230:Japanese users know the words by 1272:Redirects already exist for both 4602:Any hits? I sure don't get any. 2791:The spelling without diacritics 1112:English words of Japanese origin 33: 18:Knowledge talk:Manual of Style 1: 4612:Any hits? I get 387 of them. 2956:or something else other than 1251:Maybe we could also move the 4934:07:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4907:Knowledge:Naming conventions 4885:13:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4859:13:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4795:12:05, 15 October 2006 (UTC) 4782:13:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4761:08:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4738:07:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4713:07:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4666:07:02, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4567:08:03, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4532:06:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4518:06:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4508:05:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4492:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4482:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4452:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4441:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4422:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4411:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4393:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4382:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4366:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4351:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4332:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4318:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4290:12:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC) 4264:22:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4246:20:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4225:22:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4207:20:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4184:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4173:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4144:18:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 4085:07:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC) 4029:22:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 3988:18:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 3934:07:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3875:06:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3818:05:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3808:03:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3736:21:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3655:13:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3594:13:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3584:13:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3568:11:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3522:11:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3464:03:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3423:01:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3343:00:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 3309:23:20, 15 October 2006 (UTC) 3267:22:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC) 3233:20:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC) 3195:20:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC) 3167:article. That had long had 3158:14:14, 15 October 2006 (UTC) 3149:12:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC) 3132:18:13, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 3107:17:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 3071:16:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 3058:15:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 3044:14:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 3015:14:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2965:15:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2928:14:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2911:14:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2895:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2883:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2867:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2855:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2839:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2824:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2812:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2800:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2785:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2774:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2766:Redirects don't just happen. 2744:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2733:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2719:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2707:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2696:10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2685:05:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 2644:13:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 2609:13:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 2576:13:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 2539:13:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 2519:13:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 2510:13:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 2476:12:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 2447:12:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 2437:12:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 2430:Knowledge:Naming conventions 2395:11:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 2346:22:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC) 2332:16:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 2220:07:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 2215:without Unicode support. -- 2209:17:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 2193:08:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 2180:07:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 2128:05:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 2099:05:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 2089:05:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 2070:04:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 2052:05:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 2040:04:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 2014:04:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1973:04:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1930:04:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1920:04:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1870:04:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1825:04:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1790:04:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1773:04:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1751:04:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1733:04:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1711:04:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1679:04:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1658:04:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1641:04:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1616:03:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1565:04:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1536:03:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1510:02:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1479:06:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 1434:06:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC) 1409:02:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1388:02:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1363:03:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1354:02:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1329:00:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1317:00:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1300:23:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 1285:22:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 1260:21:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 1241:22:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 1227:17:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 1212:00:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 1201:17:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 1180:22:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 1166:15:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 1029:09:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 1010:09:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 1001:09:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 992:to the macronised versions. 967:08:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 841:00:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC) 819:17:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 810:07:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 793:06:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 743:07:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 726:07:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 713:06:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 695:04:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 663:00:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 634:00:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 602:05:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 554:06:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 544:05:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 496:05:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 442:04:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 420:02:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 378:02:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 362:01:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 329:01:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 304:01:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC) 278:18:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC) 240:11:40, 10 October 2006 (UTC) 205:09:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC) 191:07:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC) 176:07:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC) 161:04:57, 10 October 2006 (UTC) 4777:when they go to the page. 4633:So all that article is, is 3064:visibly on the page itself, 4962: 231:is not the same person as 2567:, you must also agree on 4471:also doesn't just happen 3731:cleary does link to it. 2366:IS a Japanese surname. 1632:Tokyo, pronounced as in 654:Since, for example, the 3574:Queen's Colour Squadron 3506:Queen's Colour Squadron 2739:Those can be reverted. 986:Oita Asahi Broadcasting 355:Japanese_writing_system 61:Yet again on diacritics 4125:six months from today, 3457:canonically equivalent 3386:six months from today, 3295:Sure, and this is the 2958:http://www.google.com/ 22:Japan-related articles 3960:Arbitrary division 2a 3512:contain the spelling 2954:http://www.google.ca/ 2950:http://www.google.fr/ 1255:article to "Nippon." 568:I read above, first: 46:of past discussions. 4649:still would not find 4459:isn't just redirects 4309:Arbitrary division 3 4192:Two things, for now: 3727:link to it, however 3723:. Google shows that 3414:the redirects which 2378:who is just as much 2308:(Ami "Jane" Ōnuki), 2060:Arbitrary division 2 703:Arbitrary division 1 4071:doesn't just happen 2280:(Apolo Anton Ōno), 214:that articles like 4845:English dialects. 4467:indexing sort keys 4131:will not find the 3799:also redirects to 3392:will not find the 2904:Already disproved, 2847:no help whatsoever 2388:Japanese-Americans 98:Jun'ichirō Koizumi 4463:don't just happen 3926:Miyagi Prefecture 3416:don't just happen 2845:Redirects are of 2380:Japanese-American 2372:Japanese-American 1766:Shigejiro Matsuda 1193:Shigejiro Matsuda 595:let's use macrons 426:That is not true. 58: 57: 52:current talk page 4953: 4921:general audience 3508:. That article 3184:Special:Allpages 2565:Apolo Anton Ohno 2563:If you agree on 2422:summary judgment 2384:Apolo Anton Ohno 2368:Apolo Anton Ohno 2362:confirming that 2296:(Mitsuko Sōma), 2278:Apolo Anton Ohno 2225:Ἀπόλω Антон Ohno 1474:highly approve. 1082:Ami "Jane" Ōnuki 736:Knowledge:Macron 372:JR uses macrons. 233:Ōno no Azumabito 229:Ono no Azumabito 188: 169:Knowledge:Macron 37: 36: 30: 4961: 4960: 4956: 4955: 4954: 4952: 4951: 4950: 4788:What links here 4311: 4164:Use of macrons 3962: 3142:What links here 2320:(Eisaku Satō), 2227: 2062: 1609:JR uses macrons 1047:Apolo Anton Ōno 995: 768:instead of the 705: 593:macrons. Ergo, 186: 63: 34: 26: 25: 24: 12: 11: 5: 4959: 4957: 4949: 4948: 4947: 4946: 4945: 4944: 4943: 4942: 4941: 4940: 4939: 4938: 4937: 4936: 4890: 4889: 4888: 4887: 4851: 4850: 4839: 4836: 4829: 4814: 4813: 4812: 4811: 4810: 4809: 4808: 4807: 4806: 4805: 4804: 4803: 4802: 4801: 4800: 4799: 4798: 4797: 4726: 4725: 4724: 4723: 4722: 4721: 4720: 4719: 4718: 4717: 4716: 4715: 4698: 4695: 4692: 4677: 4676: 4675: 4674: 4673: 4672: 4671: 4670: 4669: 4668: 4658: 4657: 4656: 4638: 4631: 4625: 4624: 4623: 4619: 4618: 4614: 4613: 4609: 4608: 4604: 4603: 4599: 4598: 4594:So, try this. 4580: 4579: 4578: 4577: 4576: 4575: 4574: 4573: 4572: 4571: 4570: 4569: 4495: 4494: 4465:. Fixing the 4455: 4454: 4444: 4443: 4432: 4431: 4425: 4424: 4414: 4413: 4403: 4402: 4396: 4395: 4385: 4384: 4374: 4373: 4369: 4368: 4354: 4353: 4342: 4341: 4335: 4334: 4310: 4307: 4306: 4305: 4299: 4298: 4297: 4296: 4295: 4294: 4293: 4292: 4271: 4270: 4269: 4268: 4267: 4266: 4251: 4250: 4249: 4248: 4232: 4231: 4230: 4229: 4228: 4227: 4212: 4211: 4210: 4209: 4193: 4187: 4186: 4176: 4175: 4161: 4160: 4159: 4158: 4157: 4156: 4155: 4154: 4153: 4152: 4151: 4150: 4149: 4148: 4147: 4146: 4106: 4105: 4104: 4103: 4102: 4101: 4100: 4099: 4098: 4097: 4096: 4095: 4094: 4093: 4092: 4091: 4090: 4089: 4088: 4087: 4077: 4074: 4048: 4047: 4046: 4045: 4044: 4043: 4042: 4041: 4040: 4039: 4038: 4037: 4036: 4035: 4034: 4033: 4032: 4031: 4005: 4004: 4003: 4002: 4001: 4000: 3999: 3998: 3997: 3996: 3995: 3994: 3993: 3992: 3991: 3990: 3961: 3958: 3957: 3956: 3955: 3954: 3953: 3952: 3951: 3950: 3949: 3948: 3947: 3946: 3945: 3944: 3943: 3942: 3941: 3940: 3939: 3938: 3937: 3936: 3921: 3896: 3895: 3894: 3893: 3892: 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2687: 2677: 2676: 2669: 2668: 2659: 2658: 2657: 2656: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2652: 2651: 2650: 2649: 2648: 2647: 2646: 2624: 2623: 2622: 2621: 2620: 2619: 2618: 2617: 2616: 2615: 2614: 2613: 2612: 2611: 2589: 2588: 2587: 2586: 2585: 2584: 2583: 2582: 2581: 2580: 2579: 2578: 2550: 2549: 2548: 2547: 2546: 2545: 2544: 2543: 2542: 2541: 2531: 2527: 2526: 2525: 2524: 2523: 2522: 2521: 2514:And Tokyo...? 2489: 2488: 2487: 2486: 2485: 2484: 2483: 2482: 2481: 2480: 2479: 2478: 2458: 2457: 2456: 2455: 2454: 2453: 2452: 2451: 2450: 2449: 2413: 2402: 2401: 2400: 2399: 2398: 2397: 2351: 2350: 2349: 2348: 2335: 2334: 2325: 2316:(Shinzō Abe), 2300:(Hoshi Satō), 2292:(Midori Itō), 2274: 2239: 2226: 2223: 2212: 2211: 2198: 2197: 2196: 2195: 2161: 2160: 2157: 2154: 2137: 2136: 2135: 2134: 2133: 2132: 2131: 2130: 2120: 2117: 2106: 2105: 2104: 2103: 2102: 2101: 2078: 2061: 2058: 2057: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2033: 2032: 2031: 2030: 2029: 2028: 2027: 2026: 2025: 2024: 2023: 2022: 2021: 2020: 2019: 2018: 2017: 2016: 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3097: 3096: 3094: 3093: 3092: 3091: 3090: 3089: 3088: 3087: 3086: 3085: 3084: 3083: 3072: 3069: 3065: 3061: 3060: 3059: 3056: 3051: 3047: 3046: 3045: 3042: 3038: 3034: 3030: 3026: 3025: 3024: 3023: 3022: 3021: 3016: 3013: 3009: 3004: 3003: 3002: 3001: 2995: 2994: 2993: 2992: 2986: 2982: 2978: 2977: 2976: 2975: 2966: 2963: 2959: 2955: 2951: 2947: 2945:actually get? 2943: 2942: 2941: 2940: 2939: 2938: 2937: 2936: 2929: 2926: 2922: 2921: 2920: 2919: 2918: 2917: 2912: 2909: 2905: 2902: 2901: 2900: 2899: 2896: 2893: 2888: 2887: 2884: 2881: 2876: 2872: 2871: 2868: 2865: 2860: 2859: 2856: 2853: 2848: 2844: 2843: 2840: 2837: 2833: 2829: 2828: 2825: 2822: 2817: 2816: 2813: 2810: 2805: 2804: 2801: 2798: 2794: 2790: 2789: 2786: 2783: 2779: 2778: 2775: 2772: 2767: 2764: 2763: 2760: 2756: 2755: 2752: 2749: 2748: 2745: 2742: 2738: 2737: 2734: 2731: 2727: 2724: 2723: 2720: 2717: 2712: 2711: 2708: 2705: 2701: 2700: 2697: 2694: 2690: 2689: 2686: 2683: 2679: 2678: 2675: 2671: 2670: 2667: 2664: 2663: 2662: 2645: 2642: 2638: 2637: 2636: 2635: 2634: 2633: 2632: 2631: 2630: 2629: 2628: 2627: 2626: 2625: 2610: 2607: 2603: 2602: 2601: 2600: 2599: 2598: 2597: 2596: 2595: 2594: 2593: 2592: 2591: 2590: 2577: 2574: 2570: 2566: 2562: 2561: 2560: 2559: 2558: 2557: 2556: 2555: 2554: 2553: 2552: 2551: 2540: 2537: 2532: 2528: 2520: 2517: 2513: 2512: 2511: 2508: 2503: 2502: 2501: 2500: 2499: 2498: 2497: 2496: 2495: 2494: 2493: 2492: 2491: 2490: 2477: 2474: 2470: 2469: 2468: 2467: 2466: 2465: 2464: 2463: 2462: 2461: 2460: 2459: 2448: 2445: 2440: 2439: 2438: 2435: 2431: 2427: 2423: 2418: 2414: 2410: 2409: 2408: 2407: 2406: 2405: 2404: 2403: 2396: 2393: 2389: 2385: 2381: 2377: 2373: 2369: 2365: 2361: 2357: 2356: 2355: 2354: 2353: 2352: 2347: 2344: 2339: 2338: 2337: 2336: 2333: 2330: 2326: 2324:(Hideki Tōjō) 2323: 2319: 2315: 2311: 2307: 2304:(Mr. Ōsato), 2303: 2299: 2295: 2294:Mitsuko Souma 2291: 2287: 2286:Ichiro Suzuki 2283: 2279: 2275: 2272: 2268: 2264: 2260: 2256: 2252: 2248: 2244: 2240: 2237: 2233: 2229: 2228: 2224: 2222: 2221: 2218: 2210: 2207: 2203: 2200: 2199: 2194: 2191: 2186: 2185: 2184: 2183: 2182: 2181: 2178: 2172: 2170: 2166: 2158: 2155: 2152: 2151: 2150: 2148: 2144: 2143: 2129: 2126: 2121: 2118: 2114: 2113: 2112: 2111: 2110: 2109: 2108: 2107: 2100: 2097: 2092: 2091: 2090: 2087: 2083: 2079: 2076: 2075: 2074: 2073: 2072: 2071: 2068: 2059: 2053: 2050: 2046: 2045: 2044: 2043: 2042: 2041: 2038: 2015: 2012: 2008: 2007: 2006: 2005: 2004: 2003: 2002: 2001: 2000: 1999: 1998: 1997: 1996: 1995: 1994: 1993: 1992: 1991: 1974: 1971: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1964: 1963: 1962: 1961: 1960: 1959: 1958: 1957: 1956: 1955: 1954: 1953: 1952: 1931: 1928: 1923: 1922: 1921: 1918: 1914: 1910: 1905: 1904: 1903: 1902: 1901: 1900: 1899: 1898: 1897: 1896: 1895: 1894: 1893: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1888: 1871: 1868: 1864: 1860: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1853: 1852: 1851: 1850: 1849: 1848: 1847: 1846: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1842: 1841: 1826: 1823: 1818: 1815: 1812:Again, it is 1811: 1810: 1809: 1808: 1807: 1806: 1805: 1804: 1803: 1802: 1801: 1800: 1799: 1798: 1791: 1788: 1784: 1783: 1782: 1781: 1780: 1779: 1774: 1771: 1767: 1762: 1761: 1760: 1759: 1752: 1749: 1744: 1743: 1742: 1741: 1740: 1739: 1734: 1731: 1726: 1725: 1724: 1723: 1712: 1709: 1705: 1702: 1698: 1697: 1696: 1695: 1694: 1693: 1692: 1691: 1690: 1689: 1680: 1677: 1673: 1672: 1671: 1670: 1669: 1668: 1667: 1666: 1659: 1656: 1652: 1651: 1650: 1649: 1648: 1647: 1642: 1639: 1635: 1631: 1627: 1617: 1614: 1610: 1606: 1602: 1601:Tokyo Station 1598: 1594: 1591:Just because 1590: 1589: 1588: 1587: 1586: 1585: 1584: 1583: 1582: 1581: 1580: 1579: 1566: 1563: 1559: 1558: 1557: 1556: 1555: 1554: 1553: 1552: 1551: 1550: 1549: 1548: 1537: 1534: 1529: 1528: 1527: 1526: 1525: 1524: 1523: 1522: 1521: 1520: 1511: 1508: 1504: 1500: 1499: 1498: 1497: 1496: 1495: 1494: 1493: 1480: 1477: 1472: 1469: 1465: 1461: 1457: 1456: 1455: 1454: 1453: 1452: 1451: 1450: 1449: 1448: 1447: 1446: 1435: 1432: 1428: 1427: 1426: 1425: 1424: 1423: 1422: 1421: 1420: 1419: 1410: 1407: 1403: 1402: 1401: 1400: 1399: 1398: 1397: 1396: 1389: 1386: 1382: 1378: 1377: 1376: 1375: 1374: 1373: 1364: 1361: 1357: 1356: 1355: 1352: 1348: 1346: 1342: 1341: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1337: 1330: 1327: 1323: 1320: 1319: 1318: 1315: 1311: 1306: 1305: 1304: 1303: 1302: 1301: 1298: 1286: 1283: 1279: 1275: 1271: 1270: 1269: 1268: 1267: 1266: 1261: 1258: 1254: 1250: 1249: 1248: 1247: 1242: 1239: 1234: 1233: 1232: 1231: 1228: 1225: 1221: 1217: 1216: 1213: 1210: 1205: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1199: 1194: 1190: 1187:Don't forget 1181: 1178: 1173: 1172: 1171: 1170: 1167: 1164: 1160: 1159: 1154: 1151: 1149: 1146: 1144: 1141: 1139: 1136: 1134: 1131: 1129: 1126: 1124: 1121: 1119: 1116: 1115: 1113: 1109: 1108: 1103: 1100: 1098: 1095: 1093: 1090: 1088: 1085: 1083: 1080: 1078: 1075: 1073: 1070: 1068: 1065: 1063: 1060: 1058: 1055: 1053: 1050: 1048: 1045: 1044: 1042: 1038: 1037: 1030: 1027: 1023: 1022: 1021: 1020: 1019: 1018: 1011: 1008: 1004: 1003: 1002: 999: 991: 987: 983: 980:would remain 979: 974: 973: 972: 971: 968: 965: 961: 960: 955: 952: 950: 947: 945: 942: 940: 937: 935: 932: 930: 927: 925: 922: 920: 917: 915: 912: 911: 909: 908: 903: 900: 898: 895: 893: 890: 888: 885: 883: 880: 878: 875: 873: 870: 868: 865: 863: 860: 858: 855: 854: 852: 851: 842: 839: 834: 833: 832: 831: 830: 829: 828: 827: 820: 817: 813: 812: 811: 808: 803: 799: 798: 797: 796: 795: 794: 791: 787: 783: 779: 776:(bridge) and 775: 771: 767: 763: 759: 755: 751: 744: 741: 737: 733: 732: 727: 724: 719: 718: 717: 716: 715: 714: 711: 702: 696: 693: 689: 685: 682: 679:I agree with 678: 677: 676: 675: 664: 661: 657: 653: 652: 651: 650: 649: 648: 647: 646: 645: 644: 635: 632: 628: 623: 622: 621: 620: 619: 618: 617: 616: 603: 600: 596: 591: 587: 583: 579: 575: 571: 567: 555: 552: 547: 546: 545: 542: 537: 536: 535: 534: 533: 532: 531: 530: 529: 528: 527: 526: 525: 524: 523: 522: 521: 520: 519: 518: 497: 494: 489: 485: 481: 480: 479: 478: 477: 476: 475: 474: 473: 472: 471: 470: 469: 468: 467: 466: 465: 464: 463: 462: 443: 440: 436: 432: 427: 423: 422: 421: 418: 413: 409: 408: 407: 406: 405: 404: 403: 402: 401: 400: 399: 398: 397: 396: 395: 394: 379: 376: 373: 368: 365: 364: 363: 360: 356: 352: 351: 350: 349: 348: 347: 346: 345: 344: 343: 342: 341: 330: 327: 323: 322: 321: 320: 319: 318: 317: 316: 315: 314: 305: 302: 297: 293: 292: 291: 290: 289: 288: 287: 286: 279: 276: 272: 268: 264: 259: 255: 251: 250: 249: 248: 247: 246: 241: 238: 234: 230: 226: 222: 217: 212: 211: 210: 209: 206: 203: 198: 197: 192: 189: 183: 182: 181: 180: 177: 174: 170: 165: 164: 163: 162: 159: 154: 151: 147: 144: 135: 134: 133: 132: 128: 127: 120: 119: 118: 117: 113: 112: 111: 108: 105: 101: 99: 95: 91: 87: 83: 79: 75: 70: 68: 60: 53: 49: 45: 44: 39: 32: 31: 23: 19: 4926: 4922: 4919:; and for a 4918: 4914: 4910: 4852: 4842: 4832: 4815: 4787: 4779:Gene Nygaard 4774: 4766: 4729: 4727: 4710:Gene Nygaard 4705: 4701: 4663:Gene Nygaard 4653:Asakura clan 4648: 4641: 4634: 4581: 4559: 4554: 4549: 4545: 4479:Gene Nygaard 4474: 4470: 4462: 4458: 4456: 4438:Gene Nygaard 4428: 4408:Gene Nygaard 4399: 4379:Gene Nygaard 4358: 4348:Gene Nygaard 4338: 4315:Gene Nygaard 4312: 4302: 4281: 4243:Gene Nygaard 4237: 4204:Gene Nygaard 4195: 4170:Gene Nygaard 4166:always hides 4165: 4141:Gene Nygaard 4128: 4124: 4082:Gene Nygaard 4070: 3985:Gene Nygaard 3860: 3652:Gene Nygaard 3591:Gene Nygaard 3573: 3519:Gene Nygaard 3513: 3509: 3420:Gene Nygaard 3415: 3411: 3391: 3385: 3384: 3376: 3373:Non sequitur 3306:Gene Nygaard 3230:Gene Nygaard 3192:Gene Nygaard 3141: 3125:Osaka, Kyoto 3121:Ōsaka, Kyōto 3068:Gene Nygaard 3063: 3012:Gene Nygaard 3008:exactly zero 3007: 2962:Gene Nygaard 2908:Gene Nygaard 2903: 2880:Gene Nygaard 2874: 2852:Gene Nygaard 2846: 2821:Gene Nygaard 2797:Gene Nygaard 2792: 2771:Gene Nygaard 2765: 2759:appropriate. 2757: 2750: 2730:Gene Nygaard 2704:Gene Nygaard 2682:Gene Nygaard 2672: 2665: 2660: 2507:Gene Nygaard 2434:Gene Nygaard 2425: 2363: 2343:Gene Nygaard 2312:(Yuna Itō), 2284:(Yōko Ono), 2213: 2201: 2173: 2168: 2164: 2162: 2141: 2140: 2138: 2081: 2063: 2034: 1862: 1858: 1813: 1629: 1608: 1604: 1600: 1596: 1502: 1467: 1463: 1459: 1381:common usage 1309: 1293: 1186: 1067:Mitsuko Sōma 1039:Really? So 990:Oita Trinita 788:candy, etc. 785: 781: 777: 773: 769: 765: 757: 753: 749: 747: 706: 594: 589: 585: 581: 577: 573: 569: 434: 425: 371: 155: 152: 148: 145: 142: 137:appropriate. 109: 106: 102: 71: 64: 47: 41: 4925:specialists 4642:just happen 3180:Gōofīernāme 2322:Hideki Tojo 2318:Eisaku Sato 2251:head honchō 2142:place names 1613:WhisperToMe 1464:all members 1326:WhisperToMe 1128:head honchō 1110:What about 1102:Hideki Tōjō 1097:Eisaku Satō 902:head hanchō 784:(rain) and 754:in Japanese 752:is correct 660:Shiroi Hane 590:inter alia, 439:WhisperToMe 375:WhisperToMe 326:WhisperToMe 221:quinceañera 40:This is an 4775:Ichijodani 4702:Ichijōdani 4073:by itself? 2314:Shinzo Abe 2298:Hoshi Sato 2290:Midori Ito 2288:(Ichirō), 1092:Shinzō Abe 1072:Hoshi Satō 1062:Midori Itō 94:Shinzō Abe 67:Talk:Japan 4282:correctly 3729:this page 3188:Goofyname 3176:Goofyname 2530:language? 2417:Yuki Ohno 2306:Ami Onuki 2302:Mr. Osato 2177:Bobo12345 2169:All other 2147:WP:MOS-JP 2082:initially 1859:precisely 1764:stuck at 1077:Mr. Ōsato 1007:Bobo12345 998:Bobo12345 924:København 882:Apolo Ōno 862:New Ōtani 692:Bobo12345 688:LordAmeth 431:AQi Fzono 263:WP:MOS-JA 237:LordAmeth 4931:Kusunose 4909:states " 4856:Dekimasu 4822:Nihonjoe 4735:Dekimasu 4560:Hokkaidō 4555:Hokkaidō 4550:Hokkaido 4546:Hokkaidō 4542:Hokkaido 4538:Hokkaidō 4529:Dekimasu 4524:Hokkaidō 4505:Dekimasu 4475:not done 4200:converse 3861:directly 3815:Dekimasu 3725:no pages 3510:does not 3116:Hokkaido 3055:Dekimasu 2793:is right 2674:of them. 2641:Dekimasu 2569:Yuna Ito 2516:Dekimasu 2444:Dekimasu 2415:Now, if 2376:Yuna Ito 2310:Yuna Ito 2282:Yoko Ono 2096:Dekimasu 2067:Dekimasu 2037:Dekimasu 1970:Dekimasu 1927:Dekimasu 1867:Dekimasu 1770:Dekimasu 1730:Dekimasu 1676:Dekimasu 1638:Dekimasu 1431:Dekimasu 1297:Dekimasu 1198:Dekimasu 1087:Yuna Itō 1052:Yōko Ono 877:Kikkōman 816:Dekimasu 790:Dekimasu 710:Dekimasu 411:English. 267:Kodansha 122:of them. 86:Hokkaidō 20:‎ | 4917:editors 4913:readers 4882:Bendono 4824:) was: 4767:visible 4691:Google. 4489:Bendono 4449:Bendono 4419:Bendono 4390:Bendono 4363:Bendono 4329:Bendono 4261:Bendono 4238:Second, 4222:Bendono 4181:Bendono 4026:Bendono 3872:Bendono 3805:Bendono 3565:Bendono 3501:plate". 3461:Bendono 3104:Bendono 3041:Bendono 2925:Bendono 2892:Bendono 2878:found. 2864:Bendono 2836:Bendono 2809:Bendono 2782:Bendono 2741:Bendono 2716:Bendono 2693:Bendono 2606:Bendono 2573:Endroit 2536:Bendono 2473:Endroit 2392:Endroit 2329:Endroit 2206:Endroit 2125:Bendono 2086:Bendono 2049:Bendono 2011:Bendono 1917:Bendono 1909:ja:ピッツァ 1822:Bendono 1787:Bendono 1748:Bendono 1708:Bendono 1655:Bendono 1562:Bendono 1507:Bendono 1476:Bendono 1406:Bendono 1351:Bendono 1314:Bendono 1282:Bendono 1238:Bendono 1224:Endroit 1209:Bendono 1177:Bendono 1163:Endroit 1041:Tōshiba 1026:Bendono 982:Toshiba 978:Toshiba 964:Endroit 949:Nánjīng 914:München 857:Tōshiba 838:Bendono 807:Bendono 770:taigazu 766:taigasu 750:karaoke 723:Bendono 681:Bendono 493:Bendono 417:Bendono 359:Bendono 301:Bendono 275:Endroit 227:". 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