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often be different; I'm not sure how many situations there are where these differences could not be supported with sources, but the differences certainly exist (e.g. according to the guide "Tuen Ma Line" should be written "Tuen Mun- Ma On Shan Line" if no sources proving common usage otherwise existed). These formatting rules are currently largely centered around
Mandarin Chinese and it would perhaps be prudent to at least note different standards exist for sources in different Sinitic languages and, where possible, also list any such formatting standards in other languages. (As a hopefully uncontroversial example, I have added the name hyphenation rule to the relevant section.)
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which honestly sounds more Korean than
Cantonese. Given even pronunciations of certain words within the language aren't really standardised, I think the follow the sources approach for the actual pronunciations themselves is the best we can do; this discussion would more be about things like formatting as mentioned above, or of when to translate instead of transliterate, etc (e.g. in HK "University Road" vs in the Mainland "Daxue Road"; I haven't checked the latter exists but you get my point.) Moreover, it would be good to acknowledge that the Sinitic languages are not just Mandarin even in written form, in principle.
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used for different people: our coverage of Taiwan and people connected to it uses at least (simplified) Wade-Giles, Gwoyeu
Romatzyh, Hanyu pinyin and Tongyong pinyin). Knowledge should not invent standards that are not used by the majority of sources. Better to stick to the sources than to surprise people by "standardized" article titles that are different from everywhere else. —
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Isn't that what we do? We prefer Hanyu pinyin (our "one system") unless sources do something else, which is a fairly common occurrence when talking about people or places not in
Mainland China. Sources about Taiwanese politics do not use consistent romanization systems, but they typically all use the
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The problem with moving to
Jyutping is that it would match virtually none of the already commonly used names. To take the above example: Kwok Fu-shing becomes Gwok Fu-sing, which is still recognisable to an HKer who knows who he is; Sai Yeung Choi South Street would become Sai Joeng Coi South Street,
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Therefore, I feel like an alternative description of
Cantonese or Hakka transliteration scheme also deserves a place in the guide. And if someone knows sufficient Taishanese, Shanghaiese, etc to make a separate transliteration guide for that, that would be very welcome too. Alternatively, I feel like
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The native word used to differentiate
Traditional and Simplified character forms is usually 字體 (character form), although typically encountered in the opposite order, as in 繁體字. The word differentiating clerical script and regular script, in contrast, is 書. I'm not sure if any of this is helpful, or
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is the standard placename in
English for 油麻地 although it is not any of the commonly used romanizations of Cantonese nowadays. There seems to be even less of a standard for non-Mandarin than for Mandarin (where Taiwan and Singapore commonly use other systems than Hanyu Pinyin, with different systems
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There are definitely standards out there, although none have an overwhelming majority usage and one of the bigger problems is that the majority of speakers don’t know it. But it’s not exactly like the majority of
English speakers follow MOS either, so I feel like that could be worked around. At the
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of names that should be romanised with each language (which is still a constantly ongoing tug of war because of the inherent hyperpoliticisation), I don't see any real discussion about the standards of such, the way
Mandarin transliteration is elaborated on. Even aside from the raw pronounciation,
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The article heavily focuses on the use of Mandarin to romanise Chinese characters and phrases, but there is no real guideline (aside from "follow what the sources say") as to the romanisation of other Sinitic languages. While there has been ample and lively discussion on this talk page and others
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I agree largely with what you said. As noted above, however, this is not really about the standard of romanticisation, which as you say is close to nonexistent. Other aspects covered in this MOS, such as word ordering and grouping, hyphenation, when to translate and when to transliterate etc can
1071:
I'm fairly surprised there haven't been more RfCs over this and related topics, given the ire it usually attracts. As I said above, I don't think a full standard like there is for Mandarin is achievable or within our scope, but for one the claim in the project page that all written Chinese is
1132:). Macao placenames are a wonderful mess (using various degrees of Portuguese-ness). Basically I would not bother trying to write a convention covering all of Greater China; Hanyu pinyin can be standardized, but anything else has local rules that aren't easily generalized. —
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are generally known by adopted English names. Recognizable names (people won't recognize the names Ma Yingjiu, Li Denghui, Cai Yingwen, Song Chuyu, or Tang Feng) are generally better than internal consistency that won't be visible to the casual reader anyway.
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Mandarin Chinese is patently false. Admittedly, I do not have any examples of it causing problems, so I could possibly be guilty of having a solution that needs a problem here. I would appreciate it if anyone had any examples to make a case however.
1467:, changing "the Republic of China" to "Taiwan". What is the appropriate word or phrase in this situation? If it matters, it's about a government action to adopt a modified Gregorian calendar, not primarily about the geographic location.
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I still think it would be a good idea to define a default system for each Chinese language, even if there are major exceptions. Maybe we should focus on in-article standards rather than titles? Perhaps we should move this discussion to
1496:
I agree. In this context, "Taiwan" is clearer, more natural, and more widely understandable than "the Republic of China". Similarly, the same sentence refers to "North Korea" rather than "the Democratic People's Republic of Korea".
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A writing system includes orthographic rules and conventions, in this case relating to semantics and phonology in various spoken languages. a set of characters with expected meanings and pronunciations is an array of conventions as
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is suggesting is to decide on a standard for each of the other Chinese languages (Cantonese, Hakka, etc.). These languages don't follow the same rules of pronunciation, so it doesn't make sense to use Hanyu pinyin for them.
1422:"Character set" makes sense when you're talking about computing, and maybe statistical analysis. "Character form" ("Simplified form", "Japanese form", etc) is probably the closest term for general linguistic description.
276:. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Knowledge's
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consistent. Why shouldn't Knowledge be the same? Not choosing a romanization system is itself a choice, and it's a bad one. It's really hard to read and understand a work that mixes different systems willy-nilly.
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a better option might be to split this article into a disambig that redirects to three or four different transliteration guides for the various Sinitic languages commonly needed to be transliterated.
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I am not convinced that a single standard for Cantonese makes sense. The "obvious" choice of Jyutping doesn't work for Hong Kong place names (a rather large set of examples) as demonstrated above. —
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However, I don't think Traditional and Simplified characters constitute separate writing systems per se, even though there are mergers in character variants from the former to the latter.
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Again, I suggest we pick one system and stick to it. The only exception would be if a clear majority (i.e., not just a plurality) of sources differ from whatever standard we pick.
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very least we could add something on identifying whether a source is in Cantonese, as opposed to an archaic name that might need to be changed to a pinyin transliteration.
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That's a good point. In retrospect this thread would perhaps be better suited over there. If one of you want to do a move/copy to the talk over there, feel free to do so.
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I think "Chinese names should be written in Hanyu Pinyin unless there is a more common romanization used in English" covers pretty well what we do and what we should do.
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Re Cantonese, as much as I don’t like it personally, the tendency is to move towards Jyutping, judging from its usage in dictionaries and language teaching materials.
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very helpful! i guess the default term for 'simplified' and 'traditional' might be 'character form', as opposed to 'writing system' or 'script' or 'character set'?
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I strongly support this suggestion. Even if there isn't a single majority usage atm, for the sake of readability Knowledge should pick a standard and stick to it.
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there are some differences in transliteration conventions in Cantonese and Mandarin (which is the example I'll stick to on basis of personal knowledge), e.g.:
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Actually maybe 字形 (character form) is more common than 字體 (character form). I'm probably a little mixed up in my modern technical vocabulary.
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Cantonese transliterations lean towards spacing by character (Sai Yeung Choi South Street) vs Mandarin spacing by phrase/word (Zhongshan Road)
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I wish we could call these character sets 'scripts', but that word is largely claimed by the systematic graphical (ish) styles such as
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Right. Spaces need to be addressed properly, and what you wrote makes sense. Hong Kong placenames usually have single syllable words (
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Are there any standards out there to recommend? Otherwise we should continue to follow the sources, as in the above examples.
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really what the question here is supposed to be, but I'd be glad to type more Chinese if the question can be clarified.
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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Kanji, for example, is a set of characters within the greater Japanese writing system, using Chinese characters.
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That's a good point. Do other Sinitic languages have similar large bodies of exceptions, or just Cantonese?
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I'm not very familiar with non-Mandarin romanizations and would really appreciate a guide.
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Given it refers to the current country, that seems a normal use for Taiwan.
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Pinyin is our standard for Mandarin, but I think what
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Project-Class China-related articles of NA-importance
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same romanization for the same person. Standard for
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1180:Tsai Ing-wen
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1172:Ma Ying-jeou
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30:This is the
1499:Mx. Granger
1244:WP:MOSCHINA
1188:Audrey Tang
1184:James Soong
910:/Archive 13
906:/Archive 12
902:/Archive 11
898:/Archive 10
858:/PRC vs ROC
814:WT:NC-CHINA
1524:Categories
1459:) made an
1314:characters
1262:Fermiboson
1207:Fermiboson
1150:internally
1126:Ang Mo Kio
1108:Fermiboson
1088:Yau Ma Tei
1074:Fermiboson
1036:Fermiboson
1007:Fermiboson
982:Fermiboson
970:Xi Jinping
955:about the
894:/Archive 9
890:/Archive 8
886:/Archive 7
882:/Archive 6
878:/Archive 5
874:/Archive 4
870:/Archive 3
866:/Archive 2
862:/Archive 1
529:...orphans
514:(5,425) •
228:designated
1424:Folly Mox
1394:Folly Mox
1376:Folly Mox
1362:Folly Mox
775:East Asia
738:East Asia
383:Hong Kong
374:Hong Kong
333:Hong Kong
241:, or any
94:if needed
77:Be polite
32:talk page
1509:contribs
1457:contribs
1410:Remsense
1346:Remsense
1312:Chinese
1021:Pentaxem
997:Kanguole
833:Archives
806:Shortcut
559:(390) •
274:disputed
105:Archives
62:get help
1390:WP:RD/L
935:60 days
769:defunct
743:defunct
563:(1,322)
518:(6,730)
493:(1,024)
476:(60) •
419:history
174:60 days
1469:Jc3s5h
1447:Ef5zak
1130:Yishun
846:/Names
502:(348)
447:(4) •
310:scale.
1324:such.
1226:Kusma
1193:Kusma
1134:Kusma
1093:Kusma
957:scope
704:China
695:China
654:China
620:Macau
615:Macau
590:Macau
480:(290)
440:(60)
429:purge
424:watch
302:This
110:Index
90:Seek
38:page.
1503:talk
1488:talk
1473:talk
1461:edit
1451:talk
1428:talk
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1398:talk
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451:(23)
414:edit
222:and
214:The
79:and
1484:CMD
1463:to
1186:or
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