Help talk:Notifications/New message indicator

3093:{ "query": { "userinfo": { "id": 141948, "name": "Amorymeltzer", "options": { "ccmeonemails": 0, "cols": 80, "date": "mdy", "diffonly": 0, "disablemail": 0, "disablesuggest": 0, "editfont": "default", "editondblclick": 0, "editsection": 1, "editsectiononrightclick": 0, "enotifminoredits": 0, "enotifrevealaddr": 0, "enotifusertalkpages": 1, "enotifwatchlistpages": 0, "extendwatchlist": "1", "fancysig": "1", "forceeditsummary": "1", "gender": "unknown", "hideminor": 0, "hidepatrolled": 0, "imagesize": "0", "justify": 0, "math": 0, "minordefault": 0, "newpageshidepatrolled": 0, "nocache": 0, "noconvertlink": 0, "norollbackdiff": 0, "numberheadings": "1", "previewonfirst": 0, "previewontop": 1, "rcdays": 7, "rclimit": "100", "rememberpassword": 0, "rows": 25, "searchlimit": "30", "showhiddencats": "1", "showjumplinks": 1, "shownumberswatching": 1, "showtoc": 1, "showtoolbar": 1, "skin": "vector", "stubthreshold": 0, "thumbsize": "0", "underline": "1", "uselivepreview": 0, "usenewrc": "1", "watchcreations": 1, "watchdefault": "1", "watchdeletion": 0, "watchlistdays": "7", "watchlisthideanons": 0, "watchlisthidebots": 0, "watchlisthideliu": 0, "watchlisthideminor": 0, "watchlisthideown": 0, "watchlisthidepatrolled": 0, "watchmoves": "1", "wllimit": "500", "useeditwarning": "", "flaggedrevssimpleui": 1, "flaggedrevsstable": "2", "flaggedrevseditdiffs": true, "flaggedrevsviewdiffs": "1", "vector-simplesearch": 1, "vector-collapsiblenav": 1, "usebetatoolbar": "", "usebetatoolbar-cgd": "", "aftv5-last-filter": null, "wikilove-enabled": "", "echo-subscriptions-web-page-review": true, "echo-subscriptions-email-page-review": "1", "ep_showtoplink": false, "ep_bulkdelorgs": "1", "ep_bulkdelcourses": true, "ep_showdyk": true, "echo-notify-show-link": true, "echo-email-frequency": 0, "echo-subscriptions-email-system": true, "echo-subscriptions-web-system": true, "echo-subscriptions-email-other": false, "echo-subscriptions-web-other": true, "echo-subscriptions-email-edit-user-talk": true, "echo-subscriptions-web-edit-user-talk": true, "echo-subscriptions-email-reverted": "1", "echo-subscriptions-web-reverted": true, "echo-subscriptions-email-article-linked": "1", "echo-subscriptions-web-article-linked": "1", "echo-subscriptions-email-mention": "1", "echo-subscriptions-web-mention": true, "variant": "en", "language": "en", "searchNs0": true, "searchNs1": "1", "searchNs2": "1", "searchNs3": "1", "searchNs4": "1", "searchNs5": "1", "searchNs6": false, "searchNs7": false, "searchNs8": "1", "searchNs9": "1", "searchNs10": "1", "searchNs11": "1", "searchNs12": "1", "searchNs13": "1", "searchNs14": "1", "searchNs15": "1", "searchNs100": false, "searchNs101": false, "searchNs108": false, "searchNs109": false, "searchNs446": false, "searchNs447": false, "searchNs710": false, "searchNs711": false, "searchNs828": false, "searchNs829": false, "gadget-teahouse": 1, "gadget-ReferenceTooltips": 1, "gadget-HotCat": 1, "gadget-DRN-wizard": 1, "gadget-charinsert": 1, "gadget-Notification": "", "gadget-mySandbox": "", "gadget-CommentsInLocalTime": "1", "gadget-PrettyLog": "1", "gadget-RegexMenuFramework": "1", "gadget-ShowMessageNames": "1", "gadget-Twinkle": "1", "gadget-addsection-plus": "1", "gadget-contribsrange": "1", "gadget-metadata": "1", "gadget-modrollback": "1", "gadget-revisionjumper": "1", "nickname": "~ <font color=\"#F09\": --> 1273:

This morning, we met as a team to review our options and your feedback. After careful deliberation, we decided that going back to OBOD would be counter-productive, because it would unnecessarily confuse users by re-enabling it as a temporary solution, only to replace it a few days later with something else. We expect to have a better solution in coming days, based on your feedback and on our evaluation of tomorrow's user scripts -- which will let us all respond to interactive prototypes rather than static mockups. As many of you have pointed out, the OBOD option provides an inferior user experience, which will need to be replaced by a better option -- one that can provide similar functionality without violating design conventions and turning off users. We aim to identify this better option in collaboration with the community -- and plan to deploy it as soon as practical. I hope this answers your questions, and look forward to reviewing our new options with you tomorrow, once the user scripts are ready. Thanks for your understanding.

2261:

reason I don't use Vector on this project, because it's loaded with javascript, and when I'm on a slow computer I regularly crash out on it whenever I load a big page. Now that I'm spending more time at Meta, and editing bigger pages there, I'm probably going to have to move to monobook there too, just to avoid the same problem. And that's here in North America, with fast internet. Sure Echo only uses a little bit, and another UI element is a bit more, and a third adds more, and someone keeps using those funny little elements on a page that crank it up a bit more each time. It all adds up. Sometimes I think you guys should all be required to write your code on 5 year old computers using dial-up, then you'll be darn sure to make the minimal impact on load times.

3868:

the use of garish color throughout WP, but that's another discussion.) I'm talking about a temporary fix--certainly once it's returned we can properly consider alternatives that will have the same key virtue, and improve on it.The error was in implementing one without testing or consensus. The reason to return it immediately rather than discussing alternatives first is that its virtue of noticeability was so critical, that we should take our time to evaluate others. Having made the error of removing it, it may not have been wrong to discuss others for a day or two just in case everyone did like something suggested, but as this is about to enter the second week, it's clear we have no immediate alternative agreed solution and we need one, while we discuss it.

2809:

click the new notification, and all it does it tell me to go over and look at the red pipe notification. It doesn't even tell me what kind of notification this is - talk page, or something else. There's no link therein to click. Then I click the new notification to make it go away (maybe some offered above automatically dissolve on their own). Then I go over to the red pipe and click it to find out I have a talk page message, and have to click again to get to the talk page. So, at minimum, that 1-step process has become a 3-step process, and maybe a 4-step process, just to know I have new messages and to access them. Appreciate what you're trying to do, but please simplify.

2637:! Red in small quantities is a color that is known to trigger activity. Danger is probably a strong word in the web world, red is more suggestive of something that needs attention and hence should be used in small quantities only. It is also a spot color that is effective in your peripheral vision. There is a solid amount of color theory and research to back us up here. This is also evident from the usage of red in other systems such as IOS and other web applications. I'm not sure I understand the iconography comments and their relationship to the red, we have also not heard concerns in this vein from any other user. 322:; big hat-tip to him) are spending today coding several different options; D, in two forms, one which is persistent and one which is not, E, and F. Hopefully we'll have these for release tomorrow as user scripts; people will have the opportunity to play around with them and use them in practise, which I've often found is far more useful for identifying kinks in the workflow or how noticeable they are than simply presenting people with static, contextless mockups. I'll drop everyone a note with the relevant user JS scripts tomorrow, if they get done, 455:: there are a few reasons why the team is not redeploying it; they are first, that they can't just declare a time period to be a deployment window and throw something live on the site: Engineering has controls around what gets deployed and when to ensure that things are possibly tied up. Realistically, the earliest deployment time they could probably get is Thursday, which isn't that far off when they hope to have an enhanced talkpage notifications bar deployed (if it's far off at all - depending on how things go they may deploy 4248:

about improving the software without getting a lot of people upset. I think it's important to have a clear agreement from all sides on what has happened, including why the EE Team considers itself empowered to make that decision. Do you have any suggestions about how to get there? I'd be willing to read the analysis of a qualified and independent Wikipedian, which might help my own understanding of what has happened; and it sounds like Fabrice is willing to, as well. To me, that seems like a strong step in the right direction. -

3314:

comments are most helpful today, so we can start development in a timely manner, at least for the basic feature set. The objectives remain prominence, persistence, clarity (disimbiguate messages from other notifications) and consistency (with our UI goals and best practices). If you haven't already, we recommend that you turn off the 'Red Badge of Doom' gadget during testing, so it doesn't confuse your user experience with two similar gadgets appearing at the same time. To do this, simply go to

2429:

interwikis. It is the same as if the pages were protected, you always have to ask another editor to change or remove interwikis. Or if you want to add any, you put them into a related article in another language version and let the bots add the interwiki (or ask another user to do so). But you haven’t any chance to change any interwiki yourself at all. You would have to revert an interwiki that was added before (to remove it) and then add another interwiki in a related language version.

4183:

agree on (prominence, persistence, clarity, consistency and compatibility), and see if we can arrive at a solution that addresses these goals more effectively. Look forward to continuing this next discussion after we receive more guidance from neutral but experienced observers. I want to re-iterate that we are not married to any specific solution now, and want to find the solution that best meets our shared goals, regardless of our individual views.

2603:

critical. We could have different colours or different "ooh, look here" stylings (icons?) for different kinds of notification. If we weren't rushing to fix the talkpage message problem (which we could so easily do by bringing back OB for a month or two max), we could explore ideas more broadly that might be better for the system overall. Even if that exploration led to the exact same outcome, we'd collectively be surer we had a good outcome.

3891:

Interface elements need to do their job and get out of the way. We removed the orange bar because we want to build a more cohesive system, where the orange bar or something like it was connected to the 'Talk' link in the top right nav. Why? Because thats the right thing way to design and build. We lost prominence of the talk notices because of this and we are trying to fix it, but we want to make sure that it is still a hollistic solution.

2148:

the user experience for people with old slow computers and slow, expensive internet connections. Pages are taking longer and longer to load (I'm even having trouble on large pages with a lot of .js on them when I'm editing from an older, slower computer), and time is money for our colleagues in the less developed world or who can't afford the latest technology or the high-speed connections that are common in North America and Europe.

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almost complete newbie when she started the class. She had a general inkling of how things fit together, but this was her first time adopting the mantle of "Wikipedian" and putting a solid effort into learning something about the site. At times she encountered things that are familiar, at times she encountered things that were not familiar. And her learning process accelerated in the former cases, and slowed in the latter.

4318:+1. (a) this whole thing has become just too depressing that I want to be involved any further right now and (b) I've no idea to what extent my input to this process would be valued and (c) the discussion has become a bit messy and unstructured. The initial page laying out the prototypes was very well laid out, but now it's wandered off into IRC and messy free-flowing comments and I don't know what. Mostly (a) though. 3340:- anyone who's followed these discussions is likely to find that assertion mindboggling. Tell me again why going back to OBOD was and is not a viable temporary solution, allowing more time to get the long-term solution right without interim skips and jumps, more time now to fix bugs with other aspects, and not working developers to death? On the upside, the "separate badges" idea looks promising. 1947:

solution that better accomplishes our objectives (prominence, persistence, clarity, consistency and compatibility). We believe that some of the options below could better serve these goals and add more value to the user experience. Therefore, we would recommend that once we replace RBOD with that solution, as soon as we select an option that is generally acceptable to stakeholders. Repectfully

2359:

far more likely to run into browser compatibility issues when using JavaScript (and it is impossible to test with every browser out there). On Knowledge (XXG) we often have problems where scripts stop working for some users due to glitches in user scripts, gadgets and old scripts stuck in browser caches. Hence, core functionality such as talk page notifications should not rely on JavaScript.

3319:… and uncheck this first preference for RBOD in the Appearance section: ' Display a popup when you receive a notification. (Documentation)'. Click 'Save' to disable RBOD. Note that whatever version we select, there will be opportunities to tweak it in coming weeks. Also, this is intended to be a 'temporary' solution, until we have time to develop a longer-term solution, such as 2473:- I'm late to this debate, but it's not only developing countries that are adversely affected. Many of the more remote parts of the UK (which includes where I live) have either unreliable or inconsistent connections/connection speeds, or barely have broadband at all. And I'd imagine that a similar issue exists for some parts of the USA and most other developed countries as well. 2706:

Even if we were to make the element larger, we dont have any space on top. Margins in the top right nav are tight if not non-existent. We will have more people missing the badge with a color that doesn't work in spot amounts for your peripheral vision. This has been adequately tested and unless we have a huge visual element, both an orange and a yellow will not work.

671: 4164:

of break from addressing the specifics, as it has been a rather tense experience. I still believe it is important to get the site back to a point where it functions in a way that is familiar to tens of thousands of users, while those few of us in this discussion get our story straight and take whatever time is needed to agree on an acceptable path forward. -

2308:

editors click the "edit" button, they're pretty unlikely to stick around for 5-10 second load times for pages with lots of code and templates. We don't lack for readers. We need editors, in every language. VisualEditor is a step in that direction, but it's still pretty slow in my experience. I suppose rewriting Vector is out of the question?

1292:

still does not solve the really huge issue of diffs, which are present in the OBOD. I've actually stopped looking at the little red number, because it's usually wrong, and it doesn't take me anywhere - and I'm a supporter. The OBOD is not the only problem. You should take two weeks and return with at least the functionality we had a week ago.

111:

would be fine for those more experienced editors who have trouble seeing the red spot, but that it isn't in your face enough for beginners. Believe me, it's not easy getting through to them at times, even when you know they've seen a message. When you don't know if they're ignoring you deliberately or just not knowing, it's nigh impossible.

2291:

broad base with the need to utilise that base properly; one requires instantaneous load times ideally, the other requires the neatest and most perfectly calibrated features possible. There's a middle ground we have to find: I'm not disputing that. If you read what I wrote, you'll note I never denied you were bringing up an important issue.

2617:(pinging) is the person to talk to. I would note that it risks creating endless permutations - there will, in the long term, be a lot of different kinds of notifications - and the headache of 'what to do when someone has multiple kinds of notifications waiting for them' is one I'm glad won't be my responsibility if this idea is explored. 1379:

of our requirements. From a clear cut denial of almost every other statement critical of Echo, we are at the current status quo of trying to find an alternative to the OBOD quickly. We wanted this discussion quick, and the only way you were ready to have them was with guns on you. I'll be ready to accept any other way, provided it works.

1102:

thinking clearly. I would point out that, again, the attitude people bring to these discussions has an impact on the efficacy of people working to solve for the problems. 'you should be focused on solving the problem, not pointing out we're hurting your feelings' is only valid if you assume that people do not become more fallible

4376: 470:

monkey' ads do on every other site, and internet users tend to be conditioned to ignore things like that), and that the very nature of having it as an opt-in thing causes problems; it's going to be yet another possible interface permutation that has to be taken into account in future design work and products.

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non-noticeable colour (and has some additional disadvantages; it's probably not the sort of thing we want to go with long-term, for example, and I don't want to waste everyone's time by having this conversation now only to have to have it in ~3 months again). F is persistent, but not particularly noticeable.

1419:. It is not something that requires "guns on me". It is not something that is "the only working way to make the WMF aware of the urgency of our requirements". I've been a volunteer for six years; you're genuinely telling me that you don't think anyone would be listening if people didn't shout and scream? 946:

do not become more likely to get you way in the long term. What becomes more likely is that those people will become even fewer and further between, will consult you less, and will listen to you less, because every legitimate criticism and suggestion is surrounded by a dozen comments assuming bad faith.

1525:

of the users who thinks that the Orange Bar should be re-enabled and kept in place, not replaced a few days later with something else. Yes, forever is a long time, and maybe in the long run there will be something better than the Orange Bar. But in the short run, the Orange Bar is the best solution. --

4277:

Alright, having tried them again my money's still on E; specifically, in order, E3, E1, E2 (though the text for the "docked" versions should be black, not white). E1 is too messy/hidden up there with the logo and stuff. D and F aren't noticeable enough. And, again, I am concerned about the JavaScript

4070:

Thanks, Kaldari! For those of you who want to test these, be sure to clear your caches after you install a gadget. You will also need to send yourself a message from a separate account. As long as you don't click on the message indicator, you can switch between different gadgets and still see the new

3909:

I'd like to suggest that someone be selected to review and summarize the discussion on these various pages about notifications, to help us all develop a shared view of what has been said, and where there has or has not been consensus. This conversation was unmanageable and difficult to follow several

3890:

A humble opinion: From reading this thread, I feel like we have lost objectivity on the user experience problem here. What are the core issues that we want to fix? Do we really need to be so attached to an existing solution or a new one? Do we feel like this is the best use of so many people's time?

3574:

I share Rd232's puzzlement that you are bothering to spend time and effort developing a temporary fix when reverting to OBOD until you had a permanent solution seems a simpler way to avoid all this fuss; but I can tell that we can ask for that until we are blue (or orange) in the face without result,

2705:

Issue 1 is the state of the navigation, the text is really small and hence the badge cannot be much larger than the type size of the links. I would love to make these larger, but that is a separate micro design project 2. Orange is small chunks is less saturated than red and is far less prominent. 3.

2602:

message, which is not really appropriate. Once we have a way of getting people's attention for things that are likely to need rapid action (esp talkpage messages, which need reading), is that colour actually appropriate for the range of other notifications? Pagelink notifications are nice, but hardly

2581:

Please test them and give any feedback you have; as said, I'm particularly interested to see the reaction to option D when it has persistence (option 2 above). I'll be honest with you and point out that direct user feedback from you, while an important factor in the teams considerations, is not going

2362:

Personally, I browse with JavaScript disabled because there are so many websites out there that use JavaScript in annoying ways (I include Knowledge (XXG) in that category). Furthermore, there is a security advantage to disabling JavaScript since many browser security vulnerabilities involve JS. (On

2323:

The VisualEditor itself uses substantial amounts of JS; it's very difficult to efficiently implement some of the things we need in any other way. I'd argue that, actually, a lot of our changes have been focused around editing: Notifications is intended to provide additional functionality for editors,

1378:

Finally, I agree that pressurizing you guys to work 12-hour days to find a solution is not at all conducive to actually getting close to one. Finding a good solution requires time, patience and lack of pressure. But unfortunately, that seems to be the only working way to make WMF aware of the urgency

1327:

The boat on "unnecessarily confus users" has sailed. Further confusion will be caused not by going back to the status quo ante (which is familiar, and many users who don't log in regularly won't even have noticed the OB absence yet), but by trying to do new things quickly and quite possibly having to

927:

The team is focused on finding a solution; you'll note that the person defending the team is primarily me. When I'm not doing that, I'm in meetings with the designers, the developers, the product managers trying to work out the fastest way to get something deployed that does the job (is prominent, is

185:

I also really appreciate your overall recommendations to not rush this process, and work deliberately to find the right design, while restoring the orange bar of doom temporarily, until we have a better solution. We are taking that advice very seriously and will post an update soon on our next steps.

54:

The main pressure point seems to be that "new editors do not know they have new messages" because the red badge is too obscure, and that the Orange Bar Of Doom needs to be re-enabled as soon as humanly possible. Dispite the fact there is a solution available (my gadget), people just don't want to let

39:

implementation of Echo, it can always be disabled (it takes a matter of a minute or two to turn it off). I don't think it's fair to the editors here to make them feel as though they need to feel pressured to act simply because the Wikimedia Foundation has erected arbitrary and artificial deadlines. --

4163:

At the moment I don't feel comfortable participating in the IRC discussion or evaluation of the options presented. Judging from their sharply reduced participation, I think that several other previously active participants feel the same. I believe that Oliver may not be the only one taking some kind

4123:

We will aim to summarize our options in the next few hours, and propose some steps towards resolving this issue together in coming days. I also think that Pete's idea of getting an uninvolved and experienced community member to do the same would be helpful, towards a shared assessment of the current

3933:

I believe this step will help bring a discussion that has become scattered and heated back in a direction that is useful, and to a point where those whose wishes are not reflected in the final outcome will respect the decision nonetheless. This is something we all have experience with as wiki users,

1946:

As Steven points out, the popup helped our two testers see that they had notifications, but they were both were confused by the red in the popup, and thought it indicated there was an error or problem, rather than a neutral notification. Going forward, we would recommend replacing this gadget with a

1524:

No, actually I was being sincere. I was alluding to Fabrice's comment earlier in this thread that "going back to OBOD would be counter-productive, because it would unnecessarily confuse users by re-enabling it as a temporary solution, only to replace it a few days later with something else". I'm one

1291:

Sorry to hear this, Fabrice. I think the Wikipedians here were being very truthful when they said "take a couple of weeks, get it right and then come back". We meant it. I like the underlying concept here. But even putting in Kaldari's potentially okay solution (which might or might not be workable)

945:

Dismiss this as "me worrying about your feelings" if you wish; that is your prerogative. But, here's the rub: when you, and other users, use those developers and product people who choose to interact with the community (which isn't all of them) as anger outlets, and flay them for being fallible, you

941:

to actually finding a solution. That you would do so while simultaneously describing yourself as a highly experienced Knowledge (XXG) instructor - someone whose role is, similarly, to provide a shield for people from the less sanitary parts of the community I've been a part of since 2006 - leaves me

928:

persistent, is unambiguous) that both sides can be, if not happy with, at least not actively infuriated by. Everyone else is focused on that goal for a far greater proportion of their time. I'd join them, but the primary purpose of my job happens to be listening to and interacting with the community.

861:

Let me give you an example -- an anecdote. I recently finished teaching a 6 week class on Knowledge (XXG). My most productive student had edited Knowledge (XXG) a handful of times over the last 6 or 7 years, with a couple different accounts; but by her self description and anybody else's, she was an

4182:

to get his advice on your proposal. I appreciate that we are all feeling a bit burned out by this long discussion, and understand your reasons for not participating in the IRC chat. We will aim to structure the next round of wiki discussions a bit more, to focus more on the general goals we seem to

3867:

I gather most people see it as orange; so do I, but I seem to think of it as red. We mean the same thing. It has at least the one virtue that it is thought by everyone here to be noticeable. the stridency has in fact often annoyed me, & I agree we can do better. (and I think fwiw that we overdo

2358:

Reliance on JavaScript also has other issues: What you end up with is almost always usable by fewer people. Web developers need to think more carefully about how blind users will use the site when using JavaScript, else the page becomes hard or impossible to use with screen reader software. You are

2290:

I totally agree that it adds up; I get that. I'm not, to be honest, entirely sure how we're going to address it, although it's something I've been thinking hard about for a couple of weeks now - I can't promise a solution right now. But I'd argue we ultimately have to balance the need to maintain a

2151:

It's time to stop and really rethink all of this. Making things pretty for us here on Enwiki is probably not worth the longterm harm that is starting to show in projects from smaller language groups and the less developed world. I really would like to see our developers focusing on building in ways

1308:

Risker, while there are certainly some who oppose the new notification framework outright, I think it's safe to say that most people in this discussion are "supporters" of an improved notification system leveraging what has been built. I certainly am. The challenge is not whether or not we forward,

1086:

for reinstating the orange bar instead of the best arguments. The fact that you are now asking me for a software transition plan, as though such a thing were an impossibility, is further evidence. You guys are simply not thinking clearly. It happens to everyone, it does not make you bad people, but

853:

better if WMF had done a better job of predicting where this discussion would go and made a move to reinstate the orange bar right away. But relative to 8 or 9 years of the orange bar, it is still the norm that needs to be returned to while we sort out a transition. Even if the engineering concerns

792:

I should clarify; by 'user' I meant 'editor'. Frankly, Rd, your commentary here ("give it a rest") smacks of bad faith. While I understand that there are heightened tensions (trust me, when you spend 10 hours a day working on this problem you get to know there's stress involved) it doesn't aid your

765:

Because from the point of view of most users - I think it's worth remembering that we are not the stereotypical user - that's not aiding ease of transition. First they had A. Then B. Then, very quickly, A and B. Then just B. That's complicating the process even more. At the same time, if what we're

469:

When it comes to turning it on again permanently, as an opt-in, those concerns have primacy; they are that the design itself violates UI guidelines, that the team has no grounds to believe it's particularly effective (as previously said, it occupies the same space on Knowledge (XXG) that 'punch the

201:

Could you clarify 'persistent' and 'goes away'? I take it that 'goes away' means evaporates whether you do anything to it or not - but I'm not certain whether it reappears on a subsequent page and evaporates there (like the morning dew each day...). Does persistent mean that it stays on that page,

3313:

Hi folks, thanks for taking the time to test some of these user scripts, we really appreciate it! Based on overall feedback, we would like to develop one of these scripts as part of the Echo extension, and aim to deploy a first version by the end of the week (or early next week), if possible. Your

2227:

All of the Javascript for Echo is bottom-loading. It has virtually no effect on the render speed of pages (for rendering the actual page content). And the JS that loads the red badge (after the page content has loaded) is absolutely tiny. It's 511 bytes. Not kilobytes, bytes. Javascript has been a

2147:

I know - I really do know - that all of the folks at the WMF are really trying to make the user experience better by creating a lot of these changes. However, they're developing for Western users with big, fast, expensive computers and excellent internet connections. All this javascript is ruining

1440:

I'm simply looking at the facts, and reading them. On the day Echo was released, there was not a single statement from any of the developers barely hinting there would be any change, forget re-instating the OBoD. Any and every statement we said were simply dismissed as workflow problems and fringe

964:

Oliver, I accept that this is all emotionally challenging for you, and I respect it, and I do not want it to be that way. My very simple request is that we (all) keep the very strong focus on what is best for the stakeholders -- the editors and readers of Knowledge (XXG) -- not the feelings of the

936:

will change his mind. They may be right; I don't live inside his head. But whether they're right or wrong, I am frustrated to hear you belittle the experience of participating in this conversation, full-time, every single day, and indeed the work I have done to run between the two sides and find a

923:

those more prominent changes is the departure of the orange bar. That it didn't is something that frustrates me, with this frustration being directed at both my bosses for not attaching me more closely to the team, and at myself for not spotting what is, in hindsight, a fairly serious issue in the

865:

Is that hard statistical data? Of course not. But it is genuine experience, it is consistent with common sense, and it is consistent with my experience with countless other students in both online and offline scenarios. Moreover, I would hasten to point out to you that there are very few people on

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Thursday). At the same time, for the vast majority of users (who are not going to be plugged into this discussion) it will be confusing at best - something being switched off, and then switched on again a week later, and then switched off a few days after that. There are additional reasons why the

131:

Well said, MZMcBride. This entire rollout appears to be dominated by a sense of urgency that, as far as I can tell, is wholly arbitrary. A process based in the broad consensus that notifications need improving would (will?) likely be successful; one that starts off by dividing users into "pro" and

4433:

Please let us know what you think. We hope that this temporary solution will work for most of you -- so we can get it deployed and resume work on the next features for Notifications. Rest assured that we will continue to improve the user interface based on community feedback, but we would like to

4247:

need anything special to establish this basic point. But the fact remains that nobody from the Editor Engagement Team has acknowledged/asserted that there was a decision to ignore clear consensus. As long as there's disagreement on that point, we're going to have a really hard time doing anything

3822:

run some tests and see what the community thinks. I could explain why all over again, but if what has already been said multiple times by multiple people has not convinced those responsible for this fiasco I think we will have to discuss how to get the community decision to be effectual. I made

2653:

Well these kind of issues of how to get the best out of the new notifications system is why I was so totally taken aback that the talkpage messages (the only old notification, if you see what I mean) was put in there as well at this fairly early development stage. Instead of delight with new toys

1272:

Hi folks, I would like to clarify any confusion about our earlier statements regarding the new message indicators and OBOD. For the past couple days, we have indeed been considering all options listed in this special discussion page, including a possible 'temporary' re-deployment of the the OBOD.

1101:

Not in the slightest; I was looking for ideas I hadn't thought of. Finding a software transition plan is easy; finding one that does not, even temporarily, exacerbate the very problems it's meant to solve for is a harder proposition. I accept the (not insignificant) possibility that we may not be

931:

In doing so, in these discussions in particular, I've noted myself becoming more and more aggrieved by the discussion. Perhaps it's just because I've been spending such a large proportion of my workday (and it's a long workday) dealing with this issue, combined with the justifiable anger from the

542:

Agree, this does not strike me as hyperbole. This is a very serious issue, and most WMF staff commenting on these pages are consistently missing the point -- which leads to the rather obvious conclusion that they are listening to each other, and not paying attention to the very basic things being

4301:

I have not gone away, but I am not going to comment on options until we reverse the basic error, because to do so gives some degree of legitimacy to the procedure. Possibly others feel similarly & have stopped commenting--or perhaps they have stopped in disgust at the unresponsiveness of the

3584:

Definite first preference: D, no fade. If the D-fade option is chosen, the delay should be slightly longer, 8 - 10 sec vs. the present 5 or so. I don't like the colour and would much prefer the same orange as the late lamented OBOD, as both more conspicuous (I think the people who complain of it

2827:

a link to the diff of the change. If I recall, if you're using option D, clicking the blue bar will take you to your talk page. No diff on that one, though. Same for clicking the words in option F. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say that there's no link or way to get to your talk page in

2808:

Is it possible to develop this so it actually has the links it's notifying us about? See, here's my thing - the OBOD was a one-step process to accessing the talk page. The red pipe took it to a two-step process. Adding this nifty new notification now makes it a three- or four-step process. I

2725:

Oh, totally, on the complementary front. On continuity, I'm not sure what the point of that would be from a UI perspective - unless we're taking the attitude that people are more likely to associate orange with messages - in which case that's perfectly correct, but people will eventually have to

2428:

There’s no way at all to add, change or remove interwikis at Wikidata except for removing the revert button (if anyone has added the interwiki before that you want to remove), because it isn’t possible to edit the pages directly there and there’s also no special page for adding/removing/changing

1482:

Here is my recommended transition plan. 1. Restore the Orange Bar. 2. The people who took away the Orange Bar learn from their mistake and realize that they shouldn't take away or hide important functions of the site. 3. The rest of us forgive the people who took away the Orange Bar and agree to

889:

you will figure out a way to do it pretty quickly. If not -- hire somebody with expertise in the field. I will be happy to give you a general plan of attack, but really, you should not be looking to someone like me. You should also be paying somebody to do it. Every software maker in history has

473:

I appreciate that a lot of people feel strongly that the OBOD should return, either temporarily or permanently - as I hope I've explained (although you may not agree with me) Product are fairly fixed in their position that this will not be happening. My attitude to this is that if the OBOD isn't

314:

When we look at non-OBOD options, people seem fairly equally divided; each option has its disadvantages and advantages. If we go with C or D, which are fairly similar in design, we have an issue with persistence - it fades out quickly and so will quite probably get missed. E is persistent, but a

110:

For new editors, the orange banner is the most obvious to the eye that I've seen so far - and it should be able to be turned off by non-new editors now that the red thingy is up and running. I'm not suggesting that we have it as the sole indicator. Based on what I've seen of Edoktor's gadget, it

4366:

Together, we reviewed proposed designs for message indicators, and discussed how each option serves our goals (prominence, persistency, clarity, consistency and compatibility). We then brainstormed a new version combining the best of options E and F -- using the orange background from E and the

3445:

My favorite is E (not animated), provided the font size can get beefed up in Modern and Monobook. I especially like that it follows you down the page, can be dismissed, and then comes back on next load. And that it shows up even if you load halfway down the page! E is definitely The One for me.

2260:

Kaldari and Okeyes, you're missing my point. I have completely empty .js and .css pages, and one of the reasons I wiped out all the scripts is the noticeable effect on load times. (The other being how they tend not to work properly with each other.) Yes, I can tell the difference. It's also the

2307:

I think the problem is that this website has two possibly quite conflicting goals: it wants to look good for readers, and it wants to be easy to edit. Over the last few years, the focus has been on making things look good, which has cost a significant amount on making it easy to edit. When new

2201:

Totally agreed; I think it's a conversation that needs to be had (about how we go about providing our editing experience). Having said that, I'd note that enwiki itself is not representative of MediaWiki, and that a lot of the damage is likely to be caused not by Foundation changes but by user

932:

community, but I've noticed more and more that the focus a lot of people are bringing seems to be less on finding a solution the team will implement and more about venting their outrage at the nearest person (which happens to be me) in the hope that if they just hurl invective fast enough, the

602:

for an example of how it could look. The orange bar would co-exist with whatever new system the team comes up with for a week or two (or until dismissed by the user), advertising Echo the whole time (or until dismissed by the user). Then it would go away, except for those of us who'd keep Writ

1106:

of assumptions of bad faith and relentless attempts to steamroll the outcome of the discussion. On the 'not listening' - point me to what you see as the best arguments for temporarily restoring the orange bar that I, at least, have not replied to. I will try to address them if I can (although

905:

Pete, I am listening to you. You seem to be confusing "not doing what you want and being persuaded by your arguments" with "not listening". While I appreciate the anecdata provided by you, Andy and DGG, it's just that - anecdata. Anecdata based on a very small number of samples. Your relative

342:

a fan of. I'd like to make the argument that, actually, we probably want whatever form of notification we settle on to interrupt users' workflows; we want them to have to stop paying attention to something because, oh! They have a talkpage message. They should check that out. In that regard,

290:

will post an update about this plan shortly. And yeah, I too love this ability to mention each other by linking usernames -- it seems really effective for supporting collaborations of all sorts on Knowledge (XXG), and is bringing us closer to each other in a really productive way :) Onward!

38:

Just prior to the release of Echo here, there was a big rush to have this tool ready by Tuesday, April 30. And now there still feels like there's a lot of pressure to act quickly and move forward as soon as possible. I don't understand what the rush is. If people are unhappy with the current

3605:

After further tests I hold the same opinion as before. Any will work for me but IPs and new users should have something much more conspicuous and no "How to disable this popup" option. Before I block someone that could possibly be informed and helped, I would like them to have a chance to

949:

This post will undoubtedly provoke strong responses; have fun making them. It's 2am (or, to put it another way, I've been consistently part of this conversation for 12 hours). I'm going to sleep. Those users who have, throughout this, remained positive or posted critiques that avoid ABF and

4197:

The refusal to restore the orange bar, as a temporary measure, while we calmly discuss alternatives, with no time pressure, is the worst case of clear consensus being ignored that I have seen in ten years as an editor. It shouldn't need an independent reviewer to point that consensus out.

1728:

Edoktor, thank you for your very timely efforts; I know many people really appreciate it. Unfortunately, I'm not finding this is working for me, and wonder if there is an opt-out. I don't want to sound ungrateful, and I really do appreciate that you've taken the bull by the horns here.

2445:

add something to your watchlist (so better than Wikidata interwikis). But if you turn an old JS version on, then you even can’t add anything to or remove anything from your watchlist, then you can only do this, if you edit the page and press the button „Watch this page“ or vice versa.

2883:

Well...everything is working fine now. The short of it - I prefer F. The reason nothing was happening, is that the alert wasn't showing up. I was just looking at the default now in play. Don't know why. But I just tried again, and everything is fine. Yes, it was very strange.

3999:

As you can see from the discussion further up, there was an option G on the last page; like at the RfC, it was the overwhelming favorite; like at the RfC, that made no difference to the WMF team (despite their having said that it would). This section is for testing and discussing

650:

As someone who was in the meeting where the team discussed this, the primary rationale would be that it would create an additional period of inconsistency and uncertainty. It's not being rushed: the team has spent pretty much the last week doing nothing but working on this issue.

4389:

made live changes to our prototype gadget for Option F2. After testing that revised gadget, we reached consensus that this would be a reasonable solution to integrate in the Echo extension -- which we aim to do next Tuesday, May 14. We think this solution meets all of our goals:

4375: 717:

Also a good suggestion, for products generally, but I'm not seeing how we can apply it here. The change has already been made; reversing it would effectively be precisely the same problem (although I note that's now what Edokter is doing, for perfectly understandable reasons).

1148:

Update: On review, after some rest, I agree that after the decision to not restore the orange bar was revealed, I went a little off the rails. I've struck a phrase I definitely should not have included, above; and in general, I probably should have taken a little more time to

2791:

Ok, having played around with these, I'm officially a big fan of option 3 (aka Option E, no animation). D is sort of awkward the way it covers tabs, and F is just godawful (its animation deployed at glacial speed across my top bar. 'Ne *pause* New *pause* New m *pause*"...).

3017:

I am getting that conflict, so at the moment I cannot really judge the different versions. Actually I am fine with the honking red gadget, but I can see experienced users would not want something so loud and for new users it needs greater persistence that I am seeing at the

4368: 918:

I agree that this situation is a big deal; do not doubt that. I have several regrets about the development and deployment process for Echo, and this is one of them - the team should have done a far better job socialising the more prominent changes, and the most prominent

4434:

move on to other important tasks, such as supporting HTML email notifications. Thanks again to Edokter, Ignatz and other community members for their creative suggestions -- and for helping reach a compromise that meets our shared objectives. Tomorrow, I will update the

2263:

Growth areas for Wikimedia projects are outside of the western world where we have top technology and excellent internet. If the WMF is to continue to grow, you need to be building in a way that makes the interface work well in the absence of the latest technology.

2907:

Just received my first talk page notification via the new script and, for my own use, I have no problems with it. If IP and new user notifications are being discussed elsewhere then disregard the following; talk page notifications for IPs and new users need to be

2058:) be a reason to consider making the popup persistent, though that would be a very heavy-handed solution. You said you could make it persistent, but you couldn't change the time until it vanishes? Seems to me ~15-20 seconds might be better than the ~6 it is now. 1366:

What the general editors do not like or understand at all is why those involved in finding the solution are unwilling to understand the urgency and importance of the above point. You don't want the OBOD at all - Point noted. But why don't you understand that we

2436:

and edit it directly which is more difficult and time comsuming, and you also have to know this way first which is described and explained nowhere. There’s no way to edit easily anymore, so you won’t do translation edits normally very much, cause it’s just too

2152:

that will minimize the time that it takes to load pages, and with an eye to expecting that, outside of a few "big" projects, most editors will be using technology that is at least 5 years old. Editing Knowledge (XXG) shouldn't be the bailiwick of the rich.

3847:, What do you think the RBOD solves for? Its got two critical issues. 1) red in such large amounts makes is look like an error. 2) It disappears before anyone can read it. If it persists it obfuscates content. Can you outline the merits of the RBOD? Thanks 488:

This is probably the single most annoying thing I've read from anyone at the Foundation, in ten years of editing. If you have already made up your mind not to return it, why was the orange bar in the options presented for consultation on this project page?

2612:

I'm not sure how any of that relates to the thread, but: we do have different iconography within Echo, certainly, for different kinds of notifications. In terms of showing different icons in the general UI when different kinds of messages have appeared,

2417:

first before going on with developing anything else anymore which always relys on JS. There’s so much on Knowledge (XXG), that can’t be used anymore with old browsers and old JavaScripts (because it’s just not compatible anymore with newer JS versions).

3768:

immediately after "default" and before the closing bracket in the popup's line (first under Appearance), that would keep it from loading for IPs, who wouldn't see it anyway. Quicken up their load times just a little tiny bit. Keep it all on one line!

2340:

I'm vaguely aware of all kinds of tech efforts to get things loaded only when needed by the user, and as late as possible (after page content). That's probably the only way to square the circle. Suggestions for where to move this discussion to ....?

914:

likely to be helpful than data from actual use, be it quantitative or qualitative: you're trying to generalise what people are paying attention to in a driven, scoped session with a leader figure to what people pay attention to browsing on their own

2597:

Just to illustrate the "why are we rushing forward instead of taking a step back and surveying the path ahead" issue: are we even sure that red is the best colour for the Echo number badge? Red (particularly that sort of shade) indicates a sort of

2697:, I agree with you here in terms of continuity. I even proposed the orange, but the context and space available must be taken into account. The issue here is two fold. ( First lets note that on a color spectrum orange lies between red and yellow ) 2228:

standard technology of web browsers since 1996. I'm not sure I understand how Westerners are more likely to have JavaScript than non-Westerners. Indeed, I strongly suspect the opposite is true since there are far more old computers in the West.

848:

Indeed. We have been disrupted for several days, and from what it sounds like now it's likely we will be disrupted for several more due to engineering concerns beyond the control of this team. This is all a big deal, and yes, it would have been

2746:

I think this is probably the same "doesn't dismiss" bug you're already working on, but just in case it's not: using no-fade Opt D, my red speck doesn't go away even after I click on the blue bar and land on my talk page (using firefox, fwiw).

1929: 1909: 1351:

The first problem we have is the distinct lack of planning from the designing team, both in preparing a viable alternative, as welll as to notify other users of this change. Nothing can be done about it now, so its best to leave this point

1803:... and, sorry, but I'm having the same problem as Risker - it won't dismiss. It works on my laptop (FF19) but not on my work desktop (IE9). (Yeah, I know the fix, just move to FF - except we're locked into IE on our work machines :-/) 1537:

I agree, the "…only to replace it a few days later with something else" part of Fabrice's statement is hugely problematic, because it presupposes that the same mistake would be made the second time through that was made the first time.

4428:

and scroll down to the "Testing and development" section, then select 'Talk page alert prototype F2'. Be sure to clear your cache after you save your preferences (and uninstall any of the earlier user scripts from your '<username:

2726:

learn to pay attention to notifications (and it sort of undermines the "this is necessary for newbies" argument - which is a good argument, but one that speaks more towards building something prominent, I think, than anything else).

983:

a solution could be achieved. Your attitude is now that you 'respect' how 'emotionally challenging' this conversation is for me. Does that translate to seeking to alter your behaviour to take into account its impact on other people?

3349:

Because, if they switch back, people might decide they actually prefer the old feature, and then how will the Foundation employees look good on their performance reviews if they don't have any highly visible changes to point to?

998:

I'm going to disengage with the emotional aspect of this. I don't understand this last question, and I'm not sure where it's going. I am genuinely sorry if I have hurt your feelings, that is not the intent of anything I've said.

2978:

Cool :). Yep, we wanted to get feedback on as many options as possible before settling on one, to make sure we weren't missing anything. One possible conflict is that people are now getting the honking red gadget by default :/.

2202:

changes. I think we all have our common.js or .js pages, which adds to loading time, and this is true of not just us as individuals but the site as a whole - user contributions to the javascript load for enwiki currently total

1152:

I do still feel WMF is making the wrong decision, both in terms of what is best for Knowledge (XXG) editor recruitment and retention, and in terms of evaluating the consensus of people who have participated in this discussion.

3424:

Keep in mind these are prototypes. They work best in Vector for testing purposes. I'm sorry I didn't have time to debug in the other skins yet :( Whatever we end up implementing, I'll make sure it is usable in all the skins.

866:

the planet as well qualified to comment on newbies' experience editing Knowledge (XXG) than David Goodman and Andy Mabbett. The fact that they are (with no offline coordination, at least that I'm aware of) saying things that

366:. You say "when we look at non-OBOD options", as if it doesn't matter that the orange bar got the most support. Do we seriously have to have this whole argument over again, or can you just turn it back on for the meantime? 2850:

I tried E and F, and just now tried it again to make sure I wasn't imagining this. I'm in Modern Skin. Maybe it's how it reacts with Modern??? There is absolutely nothing in the message except that it tells me I have a

2440:

If you press the watch button, then the whole page disappears and a text appears instead that the page has been added to the watchlist. Then you have to load the page again. That’s not very comfortable, but at least you

1934: 1933: 1930: 1915: 1914: 1911: 1910: 890:

wrestled with this question as they seek to guide users towards new, different, and better features; there's no point in asking somebody like me, with little experience in software development, to reinvent the wheel. -

1935: 1916: 2244:

It's a fair issue to raise, but this isn't the place for it, especially as Kaldari has now pointed out the low impact of Echo. Unfortunately, there's no obvious good alternative location - which is really part of

558:

The whole point is to come up with a smooth transition, the likes of which could and should have been easily planned by WMF from the beginning. The sudden shutoff is precisely the problem we must, can, and will

1900:

ran two initial tests, which are included in video format below. They suggest that users are confused by this gadget, which is disconnected from the red badge and doesn't appear to add much value to their user

3087:*I've got absolutely nothing from any of these. I'm normally in modern but went to vector and monobook to test 'em so there'd be no other scripts imported, and nothing in either skin. Will it only work for 518:, why in the name of any deity or devil you care to name did you include the orange bar in the page you created last night if there was no chance of it coming back? That's not just annoying, that's downright 4350:

I'm happy to report that we had a very productive conversation in today's office hours chat on IRC about the new message indicator. Many thanks to community members who joined this discussion -- especially

2213:(although to be fair, it's worth noting that (1) kb is a poor way of measuring performance and (2) some of those scripts do include contributions from WMF devs, albeit, I think, in their personal capacity). 701:

features, so people get used to them, and then eventually get rid of the old interface element for existing features (migrating to the new) some time later, when people are already well used to it. See also

1568:

major concern is noticability of notification for new editors, in whatever shape or form. I do believe that is a valid concern. But while the community and the WMF continue to battle, the problem persists.

811:

nor accusation of bad faith against you personally - but your individual efforts to defend an untenable collective decision (i.e. refusal to reinstate OB temporarily) are at times sounding quite desperate.

337:

Another thing people have brought up as an advantage/disadvantage of various options is whether or not they obscure or interrupt article content - "does obscure article content" being the thing some people

2246: 1867:

That's what I just came back to say - yes, it does. So this is an Echo glitch. I can't dismiss the red "1" by any means (well, I can, by clicking it, but it merely comes back as soon as I change pages).

1121:

I am not confident that me repeating myself will lead to an outcome that is better by anyone's measure. My suggestion would be to ask an uninvolved administrator to assess and summarize the discussion on

333:

One of the issues with options C and D is persistence; they fade out after a few seconds. What would people think of them if they needed to be actively closed, either by clicking on them or going to your

2279:

I'm not entirely sure how your argument addresses what I said at all. My argument was not, primarily, that your common.js page was the issue; it was that site JS was a substantial issue (although you

1932: 1913: 1821:

To be clear, it does dismiss itself after a short time - then when I navigate to a new page - any page - it appears again. Actually, the red "1" comes back as well - so is this an Echo glitch?

874:

votes against Echo if you find it entertaining, but please spare us the repeated responses to those bad arguments. Please remember that in evaluating consensus, a closing Wikipedian's job is to

766:

looking for is to overwrite muscle memory and have people learn to look to the top right for incoming messages, this doesn't solve for that at all; in fact, it means they don't have to adapt.

3589:

to be conspicuous!) and providing continuity of user experience from OBOD. I don't like E or F, and I didn't observe any animation about E-animated except that it was rather slow to arrive.

1757:

But perhaps the wording linking to the documentation does need to be changed. If anyone can come up with something better (like, "Don't want to keep seeing this?" maybe?) an admin can edit

1068:

That's fine; apology gratefully accepted :). I of all people understand how frustrating interface changes can be (I'm still on Monobook) particularly when they're not very well socialised.

1359:. Its terribly hard right now to communicate with them, and removing OBOD unleashes a plethora of problems for the ones trying to talk to them. Every day wasted in discussions like these 1328:

change them repeatedly because they're still not right. I don't know if this is sophistry or groupthink, but this argument of causing confusion by temporary reversion just doesn't wash.

1021:

be hurtful may not have been your core motivation for posting it, but it was so obviously going to be the case that that's hardly a defence. In any case, back to the actual issue we go.

460:

team considers the OBOD a sub-optimal solution (its positioning, its lack of efficacy, etc) but those are somewhat secondary when it comes to the conversation about turning it on again

474:

coming back (regardless of my personal feelings on the design) it's probably most efficient to engage in the conversation about what will replace it, and test the different designs.

576:

Can you give an example then, of how we could smoothly transition between two interface elements in this case? Note, of course, that temporarily re-enabling the OBOD would itself

160:'goes away after a few seconds'. That error has now been struck out - this option would be persistent, and stay on-screen until clicked (or until the user visits the talk page). 1205:

I also really appreciate your overall recommendations to... restor the orange bar of doom temporarily, until we have a better solution. We are taking that advice very seriously

3934:

and it's important that we have an outcome like that here. If anybody knows a different path to it than reflection on the merits of what has been said to date, I'm all ears. -

2823:

Can you clarify what you mean here? I'm using option E (on vector), and when a notification comes through that, it includes (inside the notification) a link to my talk page

783:- give it a rest. The stereotypical user is blissfully unaware of all this, because they've either yet to create an account, or yet to log in again with their existing one. 2109:

Y'know, if it was dismissible by clicking that might be okay. Though like someone said a while ago (forget where) it's useful to have an X or something so they know they

885:

As for how it may be accomplished, honestly, it is not rocket science, and there are multiple paths to doing it. If your team can genuinely focus on finding a solution,

4435: 1127: 157: 286:! Our goal is to provide user scripts for the most promising options tomorrow, so we can try them out for ourselves without being forced to deploy just one idea. 3669: 3320: 2504: 1048:

I (guiltily) realize I haven't been the coolest regarding this issue, and I apologize. I realize you personally have had little to do with the mess it became.

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the part of the scenario that is within the control of all involved in the discussion -- WMF and concerned volunteers alike -- and presupposing a boneheaded,

3323:, which would provide separate flyouts for notifications and messages. Thanks again for getting back to us so promptly with your thoughts on these options! 1483:

treat this situation as a learning experience. 4. The Orange Bar gets left in place forever and is never removed again. This avoids any future confusion. --

3412:. It splits into three lines as it spools out, then eventually settles on two. In addition, there isn't enough contrast between the dark and light blue. 1843:

is 0 or not-0, and that variable is determined by Echo. So I'm thinking it's an Echo problem. Probably. Does it still happen if you turn off the gadget?

1576:

measure until a final solution has been decided on. There should be no interference with testing the WMF prototypes, as the gadget is easily turned off.

1082:

re: "not listening" -- the thing that leads me to that conclusion is not the outcome, but the fact that numerous WMF staff have repeatedly addressed the

3579:" I get the vibe that minds have already been made up on this one, too. However, you did ask us, so I've tried them all (even NerdAlert), using Vector. 3185:

importing the js. I already had a talkpage from Okeyes when I posted the above, and now I have Ignatzmice's sitting tight as well. Still nada. ~

362:

I would like a pony, please! BUT. I see nothing in the above notice about restoring the orange bar temporarily, only opt-in scripts of the various

2914:

If there is discussion regarding notifications for IPs and new users is taking place in another location, could someone please direct me? Thanks.

1017:

is a worthwhile concept; from my perspective, a lot of your commentary has been very helpful. Some of it has been merely hurtful. That some of it

4457:. I've already replied there. To avoid this discussion becoming further fragmented, I suggest responses to Fabrice's update go there. Thanks. – 1130:, and summarize what has been said, where consensus has been reached, and where it hasn't, in a short piece of text that we can all review. The 3099:", "pagetriage-lastuse": "20130314032414", "userjs-curationtoolbar": "hidden", } } } } 386:

There is overwhelming support for returning the orange bar, at least temporarily, if not as a permanent, opt-out, device. Please do so, ASAP.

979:

I'm confused. A second ago you were arguing that it was essentially black and white; that the heat around this discussion could be addressed

4227:

I endorse what Andy said. I'm curious--presumably any dev could restore it if they wanted it, and not all of them work for the foundation.

1448:

Also, you fail to look into my other points. I've tried to make sure you got our viewpoint that re-instating OBoD or equivalent alternative

3544:

be an option! You know, since these prototypes only differ in presentation, I predict there's going to be a whole wikiproject dedicated to

3351: 937:

solution that works for everyone, as "worrying about whether the criticism is hurting feelings" - and that you would characterise this as

3818:

and arguing about the details is not constructive. There was unambiguous consensus about what to do, which is to revert to the RBOD, and

4469: 4214: 2378: 2017: 1234: 505: 402: 101: 1252:]; in the intervening time, a poll has been launched, and the results of the poll have strongly supported that as the better outcome. - 4160:

Thanks for addressing my suggestion, Fabrice. Are there any steps you can take to reach out to somebody to review the discussion here?

3295: 3261: 3200: 3118: 2517:

We've now got the user scripts that prototype various replacements/enhancement for the OBOD and the Echo flyout finished (credit to

267: 2654:

that need improving but are already useful, we've much pain (for users and developers!) about the issues of replacing the old toy.

1761:. Change ONLY the text way over on the right that currently says "Why do I see this pop-up?"—no other code or text surrounding it. 1363:

having an interim alternative is a very dear cost for us, especially since a solution does not seem likely in less than a few days.

4285: 4011: 3776: 3733: 3679: 3527: 3487: 3453: 3381:. It puts my username and talk links on a new line above all the other links, and I can barely see the tip of the blue triangle. 3233: 3164: 2210: 2188: 2120: 2065: 1850: 1768: 1708: 1646: 1608: 1055: 752: 610: 529: 373: 3129:

Yes, you will only see these if you actually have a new message. Use an alternate account to post something on your talk page.

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I'll cross-post to the main notifications talkpage; comments, replies to my discussion points, requests for ponies welcome :).

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OK. So looking at the timeline, Option G was there when this section was posted, but Okeyes left it out. I'm not surprised. --

2421:

No notification bars anymore (you don’t see new messages, if you don’t go and look for them yourself or regularly look at the

2305:

Good grief, more bloody pages where .js and .css hide? I thought I'd got them all eons ago. Thanks for the pointers, Okeyes.

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obviously, if I find one that totally stymies me I can't promise that will change the outcome from the team's point of view).

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Hey all :). Quick update; so, we spent this morning looking at the various options open to us, and processing your feedback.

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You can’t use at all the new translation interface, so you have to go round and look for the right translation message with

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and scroll down to the "Testing and development" section. Be sure to uninstall any of the prototype user scripts first :)

2030:

commented on the red popup. They are not associated with any other test group that is testing any MWF-sponsored solution.

4412:: it differentiates messages from other notifications, and is combined with the 'Talk' link so you know what it's about; 4333: 4032: 3984: 3957: 3761: 3480:

Understood they're prototypes, but I still think E (animated or not, doesn't particularly matter) has the most promise.

1198:

We are aware that the most expedient option would be to re-enable the OBOD, and we are seriously considering that option

23: 2582:

to be the only data point. It's plausible that users could come out in favour of one particular option and not get it.

132:"con" and leverages the WMF's unique ability to turn things on and off at its discretion has, predictably, resulted in 4419:: it integrates with the main nav bar and 'talk' link, and conforms with user interface guidelines and best practices. 2207: 1758: 436: 48: 3672:. It was turned on for all users (though IPs don't see it) to make sure they REALLY notice the Notifications system. 3648:

The notification messages I received contained a link with that message. I did not click on it to see where it led.

882:

arguments. When highly experienced Knowledge (XXG) instructors speak with a unified voice, you should be listening.

3706:

I suppose my vector.js history is visible to you. Maybe I borked copy and paste. Pray for me if that's the case.

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Known and respected by several active participants in this discussion, including both WMF staff and non WMF staff

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Hi folks, we'd like to make you aware of some usability tests conducted by our E3 team on the popup gadget which

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Sure. While there's no non-jarring way to turn it back on (the WMF team axed that possibility a few days ago by

3355: 1683:

I clicked the badge, got the dropdown, went to another page and it came up again. Windows 7, Firefox 20.0.1.

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server editions of Windows, Microsoft disable JavaScript by default in Internet Explorer for security reasons

1344:, as one of the editors involved in escalating this issue, I would like to provide my perpective on this issue 1083: 871: 4430:/vector.js' file). You may also need to post a message on your talk page from a separate account to test it. 2085:, which makes it persistent (but dimissable by clicking on it), otherwise it will disappear in five seconds. 4465: 4210: 3823:

some comments last week about doing it, but people kept assuring us that it would be fixed by Tuesday...

3338:

Also, this is intended to be a 'temporary' solution, until we have time to develop a longer-term solution...

2912:

more conspicuous and the notification needs to stay on the user's screen until they visit their talk page.

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It has always been the intention to remove the popup the instance a suitable replacement has been deployed.

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It's not being rushed: the team has spent pretty much the last week doing nothing but working on this issue.

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That's not my understanding of the situation at all. Let me be clear; I've been working long hours on this

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It is better then nothing. Note that I am not 'siding' with anyone, but I cannot stand by and do nothing.

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the team is not redeploying ... Product are fairly fixed in their position that this will not be happening

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gave myself a new notification. After that, all of them worked with no further pingage. Hope this helps.

1087:

in this case the impacts are very broad, and I am eager for you to snap out of your collective reverie. -

598:), we can have a little bit of text in the orange bar for a week or so saying it'll be leaving soon. See 329:

A couple of things I would like to raise, both before and after that conversation, as discussion points:

4253: 4169: 3939: 2485: 2280: 1625:

Well, it's not dismissing even after I've cleared the number, so I'm not sure it's better than nothing.

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Just posting here 'cause there's an ongoing conversation involving admins: If someone could update the

3401:

Is smaller in Monobook and Modern, and in addition the X-circle is covers up part of the "last changes"

2681:(ec) Purely on a colour scheme level, orange is more complementary to blue than red... And keeping the 906:

experience as instructors is irrelevant, unless you can use that to state with certainty how newcomers

623:

Except, again, there isn't (assuming things don't go terribly wrong) going to be a week-or-two period.

4405:: it shows up each time you load a page, and stays on until you click on it (or go to your talk page); 4398:: the orange background makes it stand out on its own, and the animation further draws your eye to it; 2764:

I think he may already be taking the nap, at least ;p. Yep: known bug, hopefully to be fixed soon :/.

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Is pretty easy to overlook in Modern, as it's similar in color to the two sections directly above it.

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viewpoints. Now we're seeing marginal improvements in what your responses are, and other options are

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or anything, in what is at this point clearly a face-saving "we said we wouldn't go back!" exercise.

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The former, although we're experimenting with the latter (about to post an update on the matter!)

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days ago, and it's only gotten worse. I'd suggest picking somebody with the following qualities:

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Gadets. They should not conflict in functionality; you only run the risk of getting two popups.

887:

as opposed to defending itself or worrying about whether the criticism is hurting your feelings,

1785:

Um, now it says "How disable this popup?" - presumably should be "How do I..."? or "How to..."

870:

mirror my views is not something you should dismiss lightly. Go ahead and keep reading all the

781:

the stereotypical user ... First they had A. Then B. Then, very quickly, A and B. Then just B.

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The gadget determines whether or not to show the popup based on whether the element/variable

4336: 4249: 4165: 4035: 3987: 3960: 3935: 3594: 2313: 2269: 2157: 1734: 1688: 1630: 1539: 1495:"Forever" is a long time... I see no reason to think the Orange Bar can't be improved upon. 1310: 1297: 1253: 1154: 1135: 1088: 1000: 966: 891: 563: 422: 261: 137: 4386: 4356: 4280: 4051:

You can now try out the prototypes without having to install any user scripts. Just go to

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It's plausible that users could come out in favour of one particular option and not get it

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Also, someone get Kaldari a beer and a long nap for hacking these all together so quickly!

2707: 2638: 2614: 2393: 2183: 2115: 2060: 1869: 1845: 1822: 1804: 1786: 1763: 1703: 1641: 1603: 1050: 747: 605: 524: 368: 182:, would you like to revise your comments accordingly? Sorry for this late-night error. :( 543:

said here. There is an egregious example of this in Oliver's message above -- the phrase

55:

go of the OBOD in the believe that this is the only option that new editors will notice.

3922:

Active Wikimedian whose primary focus is on a project other than English Knowledge (XXG)

3390:. Because the links are on the side, all I see is "new talk page" and then half an "s". 1134:

makes it difficult for any of us to look at outside the lens our own personal biases. -

1014: 933: 40: 2392:

summarizes most of my concerns succinctly and eloquently in their first paragraph.

240:

Whee, this ability to ping each other by linking usernames is sort of fun, iin't it...

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We will post another update soon. Thanks for your patience throughout this process!

3398:

Is very noticeable in Cologne Blue (especially, because of the contrast) and Vector

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turned on by default on May 7 (referred to here as the 'Red Badge of Doom' (RBOD).

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are likely to approach Echo. I would argue that, in fact, data from instructors is

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or that it follows the user to subsequently opened pages (until it is dealt with)?

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Once again, G is left out. If G is not an option, take it off the fucking page. --

3466:

Thanks for the feedback. Sorry I hadn't checked the font size in the other skins!

4004:

options, like it or lump it; and having decided not to lump it, I am liking it.

3590: 2512:

NOTE: Some of these prototypes may not yet work well in skins other than Vector.

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Talk page alert prototype F2 - inline toolbar message, animated, blue highlight

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While serious in my choice, I thought I was being silly. Now I see that There

3916:

Familiar with English Knowledge (XXG)'s policies and decision-making processes

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That's very strange. And clicking on it doesn't take you through to anything?

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testers? Steven claimed just a couple of days ago that my experience with two

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Familiar with English Knowledge (XXG)'s past implementation of the orange bar

1191:

We will either re-deploy the old OBOD to complement the current tool -- or...

808: 4359:, who made some invaluable contributions to move this project forward (see 4139:

Message indicator to replace Orange Bar of Death (review different options)

3181:, I wasn't clear. I meant maybe it only worked for notifications received 2521:. Add the lines of code in brackets to your common.js files, try them out! 2993:

I thought that might be a small problem. I'll add a note at the top here.

2324:

for example, not a prettier way of doing things that can already be done.

4304: 4229: 3870: 3844: 3825: 2364: 81:

I haven't seen anyone say that; but it does seem to be the only option

421:

to Andy. There appears to be a reality distortion field in play here. -

156:

I would like to make a correction about the earlier statement that the

2001:

the size of that sample, was too few from which to draw a conclusion.

670: 1248:

Further to this point, temporarily restoring the orange bar was also

1131: 133: 4107:

Persistence (users should be reminded if they do not check messages)

3585:

being "obtrusive" are missing the point of a warning template: it's

637:

Well thank God the design of this key interface element isn't being

1659:

It should clear once you click on the badge next to your username.

4423:

We encourage you to try out this new solution for yourself: go to

4104:

Prominence (users should be able to notice they have new messages)

965:

people involved in these discussions (you, or me, or any of us). -

3726:

No need to wikilink! That'd probably do it, though I'm not sure.

3421:

Is kinda jerky to animate in all skins, but especially Monobook.

2958:

Options. Goody. When I get home from work I'll get back to ya.

4101:

Let's all evaluate their respective merits against these goals:

2178: 3980:

the OBOD. Why wasn't that option listed? When was it added? --

3789:

Really, that would save less then a millisecond and 400 bytes.

343:

interrupting could arguably be a benefit, not a cost. Thoughts?

307:

Update: prototypes to be released on Tuesday 7 May (hopefully!)

4278:

aspect—but I'll limit my comments to the options provided.

4128:, where we can have a live discussion about our next steps. 4091:

Talk page alert prototype E3 - orange bar, docked to bottom

1355:

The primary reason for everyone's urgency is the fact that

326:

and you can pick and match which ones you want to try out.

3038:

You can turn of the honking red popup in Preferences : -->

4178:

Hi Pete, thanks for your response. I have reached out to

4124:

situation and our next steps. We also invite you to join

4113:

Consistency (with our UI design goals and best practices)

3506:

Just for fun: importScript('User:Kaldari/nerdalert.js');

318:

What we've decided is this; the developers (specifically

4088:

Talk page alert prototype E2 - orange bar, docked to top

4082:

Talk page alert prototype D2 - blue tooltip, dismissible

3925:

Does not and has not worked for the Wikimedia Foundation

3626:

Er. What disable option? Are you using the user gadget?

3280:

Got this working thanks to gadgets, thanks everyone. ~

24:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:Notifications/New message indicator

4381:

In collaboration with community members, our developer

2779:

Kaldari napping? That's a critical bug right there! ;)

1701:

getting that problem on with FF 20.0.1 on XP (VMware).

1309:

but moving forward in a way that works for everybody. -

1249: 257: 4079:

Talk page alert prototype D1 - blue tooltip, fades out

942:

frankly speechless. Although, evidently, not textless.

793:

argument to make your comments unnecessarily caustic.

739:

Why can't there be a week-or-two period in which they

4438:

to better reflect where we are in this development.

4076:

Here are the options that Kaldari has posted so far:

3218:, I noticed I didn't get anything until I'd imported 3157:

to generate a new notification, in case you want it!

3091:

notifications? Or maybe some other pref I have set?

2685:

of the Orange Bar at least would support continuity.

4085:

Talk page alert prototype E1 - orange bar, floating

1744:it's the first gadget in the Appearance section at 1128:

Knowledge (XXG):Notifications/New message indicator

324:

I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't, but.

4455:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Notifications#IRC chat update 3670:Knowledge (XXG):Notifications/Popup documentation 2539:importScript('User:Kaldari/bluealertdismiss.js'); 2505:Knowledge (XXG):Notifications/Popup documentation 2388:I've said much of the same in other threads, but 1371:OBOD or better as a suitable interim alternative 1357:We need to have an alternative for new users FAST 186:Thanks again for all your constructive guidance! 1250:identified as a legitimate option by Erik Möller 1200:" - Fabrice Florin (WMF) 21:10, 5 May 2013 (UTC) 1013:That it is not the direct intent, I accept, but 545:"… and then switched off a few days after that." 4367:navbar integration from F, as shown below (see 4110:Clarity (disimbiguate from other notifications) 2181:. It was a gift from the grandparents, okay?). 278:Thanks for updating your comments on Option E, 4116:Compatibility (with popular browser and skins) 2563:importScript('User:Kaldari/toolbaralert2.js'); 2531:importScript('User:Kaldari/bluealertfade.js'); 2081:is very limited; the only option available is 950:belittlement, thank you for your submissions. 555:sudden switching-off is completely ludicrous. 3606:understand that communication is imperative. 152:Update: Alert box near name (E) is persistent 8: 4136:Overall impressions about notifications tool 3246:FWIW I still haven't gotten these to go. ~ 2571:NOTE: these prototypes are now available in 3692:Yeah. It's not, however, part of the test. 1193:" - Fabrice Florin (WMF) 21:10, 5 May 2013 693:You can transition most obviously by using 4126:today's IRC office hours chat at 20:00 UTC 4053:Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets 3076: 2555:importScript('User:Kaldari/topalert2.js'); 1746:Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets 1207:" - Fabrice Florin (WMF) 17:14, 6 May 2013 2547:importScript('User:Kaldari/topalert.js'); 934:Head of the entire Engineering department 3097:''(] \u2022 ] \u2022 ])''</small: --> 1639:Browser and OS info? It works for me... 1214:" - Okeyes (WMF) 23:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 238:. I've updated my thoughts accordingly. 3976:an option G listed on the page, and it 1904: 858:mean it has to be another couple days. 3919:Has not followed this topic previously 7: 1460:priority for us. You don't get it. 1697:Sorry for the late response; I am 1559: 1124:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Notifications 31: 4453:Fabrice also posted the above to 2413:+ 1, every developer should read 2143:The bigger issue here: Javascript 1510:I'm guessing its sarcasm, right? 924:small amount of time I was given. 704:Knowledge (XXG):Interface changes 4374: 4133:Discussion topics will include: 1927: 1907: 1759:MediaWiki:Gadget-Notification.js 1185:What on Earth is going in here? 878:such arguments and focus on the 669: 2830:A fluffernutter is a sandwich! 2794:A fluffernutter is a sandwich! 2752:A fluffernutter is a sandwich! 243:A fluffernutter is a sandwich! 180:A fluffernutter is a sandwich! 85:that new editors will notice. 1: 3816:This is a useless experiment, 3790: 3549: 3416:Does not work in Cologne Blue 3388:Does not work in Cologne Blue 3130: 3040: 2994: 2086: 2031: 1963: 1660: 1577: 56: 4302:people who made the change. 3762:MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition 3095:<font color=\"#555\": --> 437:White House press conference 2507:) is not part of this test. 4491: 4436:new message indicator page 4047:Prototypes are now gadgets 2285:actually wiped out your JS 745:, for ease of transition? 4361:this more complete update 3379:does not work in Monobook 3321:Option H: Separate badges 2503:NOTE: The red popup (see 453:To address the OBOD issue 33: 2573:your Gadgets preferences 2544:Option E, not animated: 2491:08:52, 19 May 2013 (UTC) 2458:23:28, 18 May 2013 (UTC) 2177:(which I'm typing on my 1417:since issues were raised 4475:01:22, 9 May 2013 (UTC) 4448:01:12, 9 May 2013 (UTC) 4340:23:13, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4323:23:31, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4314:23:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4294:19:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4258:20:44, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4239:19:15, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4219:19:11, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4193:18:56, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4174:18:37, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4156:18:20, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4065:18:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4039:16:45, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 4020:16:44, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 3991:16:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 3964:16:28, 8 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MBP with Retina 2162:23:15, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 2129:20:04, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 2105:19:59, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 2074:19:43, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 2050:19:36, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 2022:19:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 1982:19:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 1957:19:15, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 1878:13:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1859:13:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1831:13:32, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1813:13:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1795:13:22, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1777:11:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1753:09:13, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1739:03:45, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1717:02:24, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1693:01:39, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1679:01:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1655:01:22, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1635:01:20, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1617:00:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1596:00:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1548:15:58, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 1533:14:37, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1520:09:33, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1500:09:16, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1491:06:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1470:04:37, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 1429:13:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1411:09:16, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1393:05:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1333:09:28, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1319:16:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 1302:03:06, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1283:01:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1262:00:57, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1239:00:20, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1163:15:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1144:01:46, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1117:01:28, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1097:01:20, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1078:01:11, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1064:01:08, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1031:01:28, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 1009:01:20, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 994:01:11, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 975:01:04, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 960:00:57, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 900:00:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 817:00:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 803:00:39, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 788:00:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 776:00:34, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 761:00:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 728:00:34, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 711:00:28, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 697:interface elements for 681:00:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 661:00:34, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 646:00:29, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 633:00:21, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 619:00:19, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 600:User:Ignatzmice/sandbox 590:00:14, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 572:00:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 538:23:49, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 510:23:45, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 484:23:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 448:23:04, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 431:22:50, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 407:22:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 382:22:19, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 357:22:10, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 301:20:56, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 271:18:21, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 251:18:19, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 226:21:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 212:18:02, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 196:17:14, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 158:alert box near name (E) 146:15:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 121:18:15, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 106:15:09, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 75:15:02, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 49:14:52, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 18:Help talk:Notifications 3410:barely works in Modern 3368:Okay, my observations: 2528:Option D, fading out: 2415:unobtrusive JavaScript 1560:I'm enabling the popup 2575:, down at the bottom. 2281:may want to make sure 435:This reminds me of a 4440:Fabrice Florin (WMF) 4369:this full screenshot 4185:Fabrice Florin (WMF) 4148:Fabrice Florin (WMF) 3546:custom notifications 3325:Fabrice Florin (WMF) 2552:Option E, animated: 2487:(tell Luke off here) 1949:Fabrice Florin (WMF) 1898:Steven Walling (WMF) 1275:Fabrice Florin (WMF) 1181:Conflicting messages 293:Fabrice Florin (WMF) 188:Fabrice Florin (WMF) 3668:That link leads to 3094:Amory</font: --> 2536:Option D, no fade: 2497:Prototypes released 2434:Special:PrefixIndex 2054:Still, this might ( 4180:Philippe Beaudette 3575:and from Okeyes' " 2204:17kb for common.js 2026:These two testers 580:a transition now. 258:You could say that 4425:Preferences : --> 3766:|rights=minoredit 3316:Preferences : --> 3309: 3308: 3300: 3266: 3205: 3123: 2915: 2786: 2750: 2524:Those available: 2176: 1993:of trainees, the 1936: 1917: 1406: 846:User:Okeyes (WMF) 807:There is neither 738: 603:Keeper's script. 420: 325: 273: 241: 22:(Redirected from 4482: 4473: 4378: 4283: 4217: 4208: 4204: 4009: 3807: 3804: 3798: 3774: 3767: 3731: 3719: 3711: 3677: 3661: 3653: 3619: 3611: 3566: 3563: 3557: 3525: 3485: 3451: 3284: 3283: 3250: 3249: 3231: 3222:of the scripts, 3217: 3189: 3188: 3162: 3147: 3144: 3138: 3107: 3106: 3081:Extended content 3077: 3057: 3054: 3048: 3031: 3024: 3011: 3008: 3002: 2971: 2963: 2928: 2920: 2913: 2778: 2748: 2564: 2556: 2548: 2540: 2532: 2483: 2480: 2477: 2456: 2397: 2382: 2206:, plus more for 2186: 2175: 2174: 2173: 2167: 2118: 2103: 2100: 2094: 2084: 2083:{autoHide:false} 2080: 2063: 2048: 2045: 2039: 2020: 2011: 2007: 1980: 1977: 1971: 1938: 1937: 1919: 1918: 1848: 1842: 1766: 1706: 1677: 1674: 1668: 1644: 1606: 1594: 1591: 1585: 1439: 1405: 1404: 1403: 1397: 1237: 1228: 1224: 1218:Please explain. 1053: 1047: 750: 732: 673: 608: 527: 508: 499: 495: 444: 419: 418: 417: 411: 405: 396: 392: 371: 323: 255: 239: 104: 95: 91: 83:presented so far 73: 70: 64: 34:What's the rush? 27: 4490: 4489: 4485: 4484: 4483: 4481: 4480: 4479: 4463: 4348: 4281: 4206: 4200: 4199: 4049: 4007: 3802: 3793: 3772: 3765: 3764:file by adding 3729: 3715: 3709: 3675: 3657: 3651: 3615: 3609: 3561: 3552: 3523: 3483: 3449: 3310: 3281: 3247: 3229: 3211: 3186: 3160: 3142: 3133: 3104: 3082: 3052: 3043: 3022: 3019: 3006: 2997: 2967: 2961: 2924: 2918: 2615:User:Vibhabamba 2600:urgent! danger! 2562: 2554: 2546: 2538: 2530: 2499: 2481: 2478: 2475: 2447: 2395: 2372: 2184: 2171: 2169: 2168: 2145: 2116: 2098: 2089: 2082: 2078: 2061: 2043: 2034: 2009: 2003: 2002: 1975: 1966: 1942: 1939: 1928: 1923: 1920: 1908: 1846: 1840: 1764: 1704: 1672: 1663: 1642: 1604: 1589: 1580: 1572:This will be a 1562: 1512:TheOriginalSoni 1462:TheOriginalSoni 1450:for the interim 1443:being discussed 1433: 1401: 1399: 1398: 1385:TheOriginalSoni 1226: 1220: 1219: 1183: 1084:worst arguments 1051: 1041: 748: 606: 525: 497: 491: 490: 442: 415: 413: 412: 394: 388: 387: 369: 309: 154: 93: 87: 86: 68: 59: 36: 29: 28: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4488: 4486: 4478: 4477: 4421: 4420: 4413: 4406: 4399: 4347: 4344: 4343: 4342: 4327: 4326: 4325: 4316: 4275: 4274: 4273: 4272: 4271: 4270: 4269: 4268: 4267: 4266: 4265: 4264: 4263: 4262: 4261: 4260: 4161: 4143: 4142: 4141: 4140: 4137: 4130: 4129: 4120: 4119: 4118: 4117: 4114: 4111: 4108: 4105: 4098: 4097: 4096: 4095: 4092: 4089: 4086: 4083: 4080: 4073: 4072: 4048: 4045: 4044: 4043: 4042: 4041: 4025: 4024: 4023: 4022: 3994: 3993: 3967: 3966: 3947: 3946: 3931: 3930: 3929: 3926: 3923: 3920: 3917: 3914: 3907: 3906: 3905: 3904: 3903: 3888: 3887: 3886: 3885: 3884: 3883: 3882: 3838: 3837: 3813: 3812: 3811: 3757: 3756: 3755: 3754: 3753: 3752: 3751: 3750: 3749: 3748: 3747: 3746: 3745: 3744: 3641: 3640: 3639: 3638: 3602: 3601: 3581: 3580: 3572: 3571: 3570: 3538: 3503: 3502: 3501: 3500: 3499: 3498: 3443: 3442: 3441: 3440: 3439: 3438: 3437: 3419: 3404: 3403: 3402: 3393: 3392: 3391: 3385: 3370: 3369: 3366: 3365: 3364: 3363: 3362: 3352:108.38.191.162 3307: 3306: 3305: 3304: 3278: 3277: 3276: 3275: 3274: 3273: 3272: 3271: 3270: 3151: 3098:</font: --> 3096:<small: --> 3084: 3083: 3080: 3075: 3074: 3073: 3072: 3071: 3070: 3069: 3068: 3067: 3066: 3065: 3064: 3063: 3062: 3061: 2951: 2950: 2949: 2948: 2936:Which script? 2903: 2902: 2901: 2900: 2899: 2898: 2897: 2896: 2881: 2864: 2863: 2843: 2842: 2841: 2840: 2806: 2805: 2804: 2789: 2788: 2787: 2743: 2742: 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1336: 1335: 1325: 1324: 1323: 1322: 1321: 1286: 1285: 1269: 1268: 1267: 1266: 1265: 1264: 1216: 1215: 1208: 1201: 1194: 1182: 1179: 1178: 1177: 1176: 1175: 1174: 1173: 1172: 1171: 1170: 1169: 1168: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1150: 1039: 1038: 1037: 1036: 1035: 1034: 1033: 1015:oblique intent 947: 943: 929: 925: 916: 872:WP:IDONTLIKEIT 842: 841: 840: 839: 838: 837: 836: 835: 834: 833: 832: 831: 830: 829: 828: 827: 826: 825: 824: 823: 822: 821: 820: 819: 730: 691: 690: 689: 688: 687: 686: 685: 684: 683: 471: 466: 465: 450: 433: 409: 384: 345: 344: 335: 308: 305: 304: 303: 276: 275: 274: 231: 230: 229: 228: 153: 150: 149: 148: 129: 128: 127: 126: 125: 124: 123: 35: 32: 30: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4487: 4476: 4471: 4467: 4462: 4461: 4460:PartTimeGnome 4456: 4452: 4451: 4450: 4449: 4445: 4441: 4437: 4431: 4427: 4418: 4414: 4411: 4407: 4404: 4400: 4397: 4393: 4392: 4391: 4388: 4385:and designer 4384: 4379: 4377: 4372: 4370: 4364: 4362: 4358: 4354: 4345: 4341: 4338: 4335: 4332: 4328: 4324: 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