2606:, so for a "full solution", one necessity seems to be some sort of acculturation into the practice of double checking code output rather than blindly trusting it.As to the other issue we appear to have differing perspectives on – the hypothetical future usefulness of / annoyance with potential Edit Check cases – I'm not sure if we actually disagree or if we're not understanding each other's prior assumptions.I feel like I would derive value as an editor from a script that warned me if I e.g. left a date or copypasted superscript numeral in an author name field, similar to the thing that prompts me if my edit summary is blank (which doesn't function in Minerva). And I would derive value as a patroller from a process that prompted people e.g. not to change a shortdesc manually set to
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1413:. If I'm rescuing a dead article with all the contributors long gone the first thing I'm doing is upgrading the refs with templates so that the short citations are followable to the long citations. I've never had a problem with this from other users. If we followed that rule, nearly every page created before ~2010 would still be using the legacy citation style (and we'd have a lot more dead links that the bots normally take care of when the refs are formatted as templates.) If I'm more comfortable adding citations by template then I should be able to do that.
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Edit Check might help eventually, as would surfacing CS1 maint messages within the VE interface, as would additing a translation layer on top of Citoid, adding lots and lots of special cases, etc. I personally find that automatically generated citations typically require so much tweaking that it's generally not a timesave even to begin with them unless there are more than eight or nine authors.
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2133:: thank you for your comment. Is there is a decription of what is suitable for wikidata and what is not? Also, am I the very first wikipedian, who wants to share a searcheable database (with or without full texts) with others? I would think, that many wiki-articles (or topics) would have such databases by now (especially, if they are created using no-restrictions sources like
2635:
maybe the idea of warning for impending 3rr violation, although a warning for 1rr on affected articles would probably be more valuable), but most of the things I'm envisioning should probably display once, create a moment of education, and then not be triggered again for the same user unless they are disruptively editing against consensus practice, in which case we should
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2498:. The first "check" is encouraging new editors to add citations, if they are adding a new paragraph. (Of course there are other times when adding a citation would be appropriate, but it's an easy-ish thing for the software to detect, and it's almost never a bad idea to add a citation if you write, e.g., a whole new paragraph.)
905:, cites ten or more separate articles from the same news website. The citations cannot be combined using a single reference name, because each one links to a different URL. Must the publisher and location information be repeated for every single citation, or is it sufficient to include it in the first reference to that website?
2561:
modals at rookie mistakes that established contributors tend over time towards becoming increasingly frustrated and bitey about.Our documentation is... not really presented in a way that minimises common errors for newer editors. Presenting applicable guidance on an as-needed basis feels like it should be mostly positive.
2601:
I agree (I think you're advocating this; please correct me if not) that improving Citoid's output (in addition to that of scripts like reFill and
Citation bot) is probably a more fruitful avenue for raising the quality of citations added across experience levels. I think this starts with some sort of
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The page already says that style should be consistent, and already included under "Generally considered helpful" is "making citations added by other editors match the existing style (if any). Do not revert someone else's contribution merely because the citation style doesn't match. If you know how to
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English" template, or something similar, although the likelihood is low.Having thought on it a bit instead of getting ready for work, I suppose the initial Edit Check message about adding a reference to new uncited paragraphs might be encountered frequently enough to generate annoyance in users (and
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One of the lessons from the original Clippy was that newbies appreciated its assistance only for a very brief period of time. When you had just bought your first-ever computer, at a cost of almost a month's income, any friendly-looking help was appreciated, especially if you'd never used a computer
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That's probably true without a lot of postprocessing, and the initial algorithmic citations are still pretty bad. I'm not sure what all can be done to make it clear that any citation generation script is a first-pass tool that will almost always produce output requiring manual adjustment. I'm hoping
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could be valuable to people of any experience level. It would be easy to figure out cases where it obviously shouldn't trigger (e.g., 0–4 edits have been made to this page during the last 24 hours; your first edit to this page during the last 24 hours; the most recent edit was made by you; nobody
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trust visual editor/citoid to auto-magically create correct citations; they are dependent on the quality of the metadata that can be scraped from whatever online source. Sure, use ve/citoid to fetch some of the source's metadata but you must check and correct each and every citation that the tool
1427:
In general you shouldn't change referencing styles, unless you are making extensive changes or rewriting the article. As ever "shouldn't" isn't the same as "mustn't", but if anyone objects you will need to find consensus to make the change before continuing. The issue is less one of absolutes, but
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In many articles references are removed or replaced with better ones. If that replace reference happened to be the one that contained the complete set of source details then they are lost for all the subsequent references from the same source. Of course, they are still in the article's history, so
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have advantages and disadvantages. They provide machine-readable meta data and can be used by editors who don't know how to properly order and format a citation. However, they are intimidating and confusing to most new users, and, if more than a few dozen are used, they make the pages noticeably
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On the flip side, the cost of putting full the details in every reference from that source is just a copy/paste operation, so it is quite minimal effort. In fact, I often build up one in full by hand, then copy it many times and then alter the specific details - much quicker than typing it all by
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intruding into their editing interface all Comic Sans "Looks like you're populating an infobox! Do you want to navigate away to a tangentially related Help: page instead?" I'm conceptualising the feature I've done exactly zero work on as more like a fully automated
Twinkle, dropping boilerplate
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With that in mind, it's possible that we should design for universal use (e.g., autogenerated refs, because even though they're imperfect, they are very popular with editors of all experience levels), or for bots that autofix the rookie mistakes (e.g., we don't have to revert newbies dropping
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Different academic disciplines use different styles because they have different needs and interests. Variations include differences in the choice of information to include, the order in which the information is presented, the punctuation, and the name of the section headings under which the
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Not really clear what you are asking, if you are asking anything. Presumably, you have read the source linked by the url. You have actually consulted this source, right? The page number is in the bottom left margin. If you have not, then you shouldn't be using that source in an en.wiki
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I don't remember what the config plan was for
Reference Check, beyond it only being shown to people with less than 100 edits. So that puts an absolute maximum of 100 encounters, though there was some talk about a maximum number of times it could be displayed, which could be set as low as
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says, either should be fine, so I don't see a reason for a change. "Actual location" doesn't really apply, since the quoted text should be present in both locations. And the "CITED first" order had the advantage of crediting the original/actual author first.
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as the location of the publisher's headquarters. I find that this provides important information about the publisher's "institutional perspective", for lack of a better phrase, by showing the publisher's proximity to centers of political and economic
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When in doubt, leave a note on the talk page. In practice, I don't remember ever being challenged when I have proposed changing citation style on an article. Also, many pages that have more than a couple of references already have a mixed style.
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For the clipping, I'm not doing whatever they did. If someone wants to create a clipping using my ref, they can, because I did fix the link. I'm waiting until I can create a clipping myself without doing something exceedingly complicated.—
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I think the fact that exceptions exist (e.g. for substantial rewrites, merges etc.) should be made more obvious. Overall, the admonishing against updating references is just spelled out too strongly. What about something along these lines:
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they could be recovered but at extra cost of editor effort - which often doesn't happen. Or sometimes the order of cites is changed, making a middle cite fuller then both preceding and following cites from the same source - weird looking!
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On the other hand, many articles have a real mess of referencing, and a project of just cleaning up citations and creating a consistent style is justified. It is best to engage with regular editors on the talk page, if possible (see
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I tried to imagine the perspective of a reader that is completely unfamiliar with the article's topic, or with any of the sources cited. I would not expect the reader to know or assume that, for instance, the Polish-language website
573:. You may also cite works of art, videos, music album liner notes, sheet music, interviews, recorded speeches, podcasts, television episodes, maps, public mailing lists, ship registers, and a wide variety of other things that are
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are popular with scientists. Editors on
Knowledge (XXG) may use any style they like, including styles they have made up themselves. It is unusual for Knowledge (XXG) articles to strictly adhere to a formally published academic
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Consistent citation styles are preferred. That being said, use whatever citation style you feel comfortable with. No one is required to know how to use your preferred citation style. If inconsistent citation styles bother you,
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urls. To do so, does a disservice to readers who aren't editors because they will never get beyond the
Knowledge (XXG) Library banner page. Use the correct newspapers.com url. There is some discussion about clipping at
2311:, but these are all too old for that.) After they're generated, you can edit it to change anything that you think it got wrong. If you've not tried the visual editor, then this link will probably work for you:
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is a citation listed at the end of an article, without any system for linking it to a particular bit of material. In an article that contains more than a couple of sentences, it is more difficult to maintain
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is published by a completely different company, which should mean that it can be used to cross-check information from
Defence24. I would not have known this, nor would any reader, if I had not looked up the
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requires citations based on the content rather than the grammar. Sometimes, one sentence will require multiple inline citations. In other instances, a whole paragraph will not require any inline citations.
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I didn't mean to get into the issue of how to link to newspapers.com. The problem is not that, but how to make it clear what the page number refers to. It looks like it is the page number of "TV Media".—
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If untemplated references are preferred, take special care to maintain a consistent citation style throughout the article. Similarly, avoid changing templated citation styles without seeking consensus.
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last night. Since I intend to continue adding content and citations to the article, I prioritize reader convenience and robustness in the face of a changing set of references. I will also investigate
2280:
Once you have the URLs, here's an example of what you can expect as an autogenerated ref in the visual editor (though you'll have to switch to wikitext to remove the ref tags), using the first book:
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I have high hopes for future extended functionality that can provide realtime feedback about mistakes and problematic edits. Something a bit more nuanced and informative than edit filters.
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But after the first jitters wore off, most people learned how to use their new computers quickly, and they equally quickly wanted to get rid of anything that treated them like a newbie.
1110:. I'd argue that the publisher and location of these websites are unnecessary in every case, including the first references to these sources.It's almost never helpful to include both
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While you should try to write citations correctly, what matters most is that you provide enough information to identify the source. Others will improve the formatting if needed.
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that will happen if we tell people that they must use the style preferred by scientists in articles about history or the style preferred by artists when writing about science.
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community configured functionality that hooks into Citoid or VE somewhere, which there was a subthread about at the recent VPR thread on Edit Check.As stated above,
2433:. No autogenerating system is going to turn bad metadata into perfect citations, and I think this is the level of imperfection that you can realistically expect.
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2137:. If no such option exists today, how can I post it for a discussion? OR would you be willing to do it, since you may know better how such thins work here?
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The only place we centrally share structured citation is as wikidata items and I don't think there's an easy way to import from those libraries to wikidata.
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and other databases. I would like to share these libraries with interested wiki-editors, and I wonder if
Knowledge (XXG) has a mechanism for such sharing.
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is the diff. Notice that when you look under references, the page number from the newspaper makes it look like it is a page number in the original source.
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Why doesn't
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Can someone please make a series of YouTube videos going through and verbally explaining, with examples everything on the
Knowledge (XXG) help pages?
822:, a collaborative effort to improve Knowledge (XXG)'s help documentation for readers and contributors. If you would like to participate, please visit
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for the BBC's website. It always surprises me that the visual editor doesn't recognize it as a news site, and can't pull most of the information.)
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That said, I wonder if the community is ready to be done with the idea that "The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged".
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Yes, signs, including gravestones, that are displayed in public are considered publications. If the article is using citation templates, then use
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I agree, making each citation self-contained seems best, as it is probably easiest to follow for the reader and robust in view of future changes.
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I'm too lazy to check, but I think that both options used to be present. Personally I prefer the one that is given now, but both are acceptable.
1797:. If you have questions about clipping, you should ask at the WP:Newspapers.com talk page. If the current url cannot be translated, remove it.
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without using inline citations, but general references can be useful and are not banned. However, they are not adequate if the material is
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into a vacuous / pleonastic synonym of the article title because they think having no short description is erroneous and are unaware of
2263:, there isn't an automatic way to do that correctly. You will have to look up each one of them manually. The convention is to use the
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2380:– don't do that; the name of the institute that contributed the source to Internet Archive is irrelevant and may mislead our readers
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It seems to be saying not to add templated citations to already cited pages, which is absurd. Further down the page it says
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1380:(Note that templates should not be added without consensus to an article that already uses a consistent referencing style.)
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except you has edited this page during the last 24 hours) but impossible to detect all the cases where it should trigger.
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where the values for those parameters match to a large degree, as they do in these cases. It's also rare to include the
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I don't know if it will help in that case, but I did something like that in citing several sub-pages of a web site in
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What's the easy way for a new user to generate citations from archive.org or google.books for the 25 books listed on
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Is this saying that I should not add citation templates to an article that does not already use citation templates?
2618:, or altering era styles from BCE/CE to BC/AD or vice versa because they have feelings about it and are unaware of
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are now required in new articles, although some older articles may still use the now-deprecated citation system of
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1484:, if there isn't one then imposing one style is considered helpful per 'Generally considered helpful' point 3 in
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an article should not be switched between templated and non-templated citations without good reason and consensus
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of
Knowledge (XXG)'s policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.
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slower to load. Editors should use their best judgment to decide which format best suits each specific article.
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would be welcome, but there are a few things that could be handy (e.g., pre-warning about URLs that are on the
1679:. But if you look at the ref, it looks like it is a page number in TV Media, which provided the article to the
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I followed the bot directions and did get the URLs converted. So is the page number all right the way it is?—
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695:(MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.
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The first is archive.org and the second is books.google.com. (You can also generate citations from an
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Wikidata has citation/bibliographic information for a large number of scientific papers. I think that
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Thank you for reminding me about WikiData. I do not think I need to export anything from my libraries.
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procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Knowledge (XXG)
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rather about stopping editors from wasting their time arguing about what reference style to use. --
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I think I'd put the source that you personally read yourself first, but either is probably okay.
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970:, the editors at the article are welcome to set up whatever system they think is sensible. See
691:, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the
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Why doesn't Knowledge (XXG) require everyone to use citation templates in every single article?
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I'm not sure how to convert the newspapers.com URL because of the problem that I linked to.—
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Isn't everyone required to use clickable footnotes like this to cite sources in an article?
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a style that they believe is appropriate for the individual article in question and should
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creates. Be responsible and don't create a mess that other editors will have to clean up.
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Auto-citing a source using the visual editor – look for the "Cite" button in the toolbar.
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The page number is not the page number of Sunday TV Magazine, but the TV Magazine of the
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guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Knowledge (XXG) policies
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Thanks. I looked at an article that used notes and it didn't make sense what was done.—
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Have you searched YouTube? There are a whole bunch of solid introduction videos there.
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Sure! Whatever works best for your own editing flow and job satisfaction. I said above
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Repeating publisher and location information for different articles from same website?
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is commonly used by historians and in the fine arts. Other US style guides include
2630:, and could be the valid result of a talkpage discussion, conformance with a "Use
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2395:– don't do that; omit corporate designations unless required for disambiguation:
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2353:: And like so, so, many automatically created citations, those are both flawed.
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of a website, unless it's the website of what used to be a physical news-paper.
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No autogenerating system is going to turn bad metadata into perfect citations
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I guess there is a reason why I just plod along building citations manually.
1465:
Talk:Joseph Conrad/Archive 2#Convert footnotes to Explanatory footnotes (efn)
1152:
In fact, I was going to leave out the publisher for the similarly named site
2516:, it's not currently implemented on English Knowledge (XXG) at all, and the
1793:
Apparently, others have solved the clipping issue. That is why I linked to
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471:
1082:, this reply will assume you're referring to the citations to the websites
601:. For talk archives from the previous Manual of Style (footnotes) page see
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For information on Knowledge (XXG)'s approach to the establishment of new
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Isn't there a rule that every single sentence requires an inline citation?
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to annoy them, which might help them stop without technical restriction.
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I can just post a Zotero file (or its archived version) on to WikiData.
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Source is not the newspaper, but it looks like source has a page number
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and see a list of open tasks. To browse help related resources see the
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are published by the same Polish limited-liability company, Defence24
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Thank you, I didn't know about that button, that will help. Cheers.
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names along with the page number and issue date. You could write a
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This is a relatively niche question. Let's say an article, such as
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Maybe this is really minor. Currently, WP:SAYWHERE has the order
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I'm used to the "cited in" order given in the example. And like
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I initially thought the same, but I eventually changed my mind.
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on Knowledge (XXG), and the community does not want to have the
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and I can't find any explanation of what I should have done.—
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2386:– don't do that; write the name as it appears in the source:
2368:– don't do that; write the name as it appears in the source:
2359:– don't do that; write the name as it appears in the source:
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1922:
That would place the actual location of the material first.
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libraries with detailed bibliography and full-text pdfs of
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https://www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/
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one of four types of content requiring an inline citation
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The first one also has the title in librarian-preferred
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1197:, which appears to have been incorrect. Happy editing,
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is the authoritative source. For American English the
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Sydney_Moseley?veaction=edit
2193:
Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
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Talk:Vaquita#Clean up needed - especially referencing
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which is used by sociologists and psychologists, and
2290:. Robarts - University of Toronto. London : Cassell.
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1736:
Use the page number as it is written in the source.
1328:No worries, learning is part of the experience. --
1162:" ("about us") page, just to be sure. Suprisingly,
1916:Smith (2009), p. 99, cited in Jones (2010), p. 29.
1090:, repeatedly cited with the respective parameters
2158:(For myself, I keep wishing someone will do some
1981:sharing Zotero libraries with other wiki-editors
1920:Jones (2010), p. 29, citing Smith (2009), p. 99.
996:I would make each cite stand totally by itself.
627:does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s
2284:Moseley, Sydney A. (Sydney Alexander) (1916).
1764:Look in the lower left margin. It gives both
8:
2576:before, and might not even know how to type.
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937:(Sneaking in here so this reply makes sense)
745:carefully and exercise caution when editing.
1039:, I came to the same conclusion as you and
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701:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Manual of Style
2094:Let me give it a try and see how it works.
1673:The page number is the page number in the
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2196:I look forward to hearing from you soon.
685:This page falls within the scope of the
597:To find archives of this talk page, see
2378:|others=Robarts - University of Toronto
1170:In the case of a web citation, I treat
939:A similar effect can be achieved using
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535:Aren't general references prohibited?
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738:. Both areas are subjects of debate.
704:Template:WikiProject Manual of Style
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2357:|first=Sydney A. (Sydney Alexander)
1105:|publisher= Altair Agencja Lotnicza
633:It is of interest to the following
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2719:Knowledge (XXG) Help Project pages
2587:does it faster than humans can).
2295:Moseley, Sydney Alexander (1916).
2155:has done some of the work on that.
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2287:The truth about the Dardanelles
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553:Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr.
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2397:|publisher=Cassell and Company
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2315:It works like Google Docs.
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