Knowledge talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/archive9

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why they chose the name. It can therefore be reasonably inferred that nearly all players of the game know of the Tolkien creation and consider it the primary meaning, since in the real world unless a namesake becomes overwhelmingly more popular than the original this is how most people would decide which is primary and which is not. But absent that, there are many other people who have read Tolkien's work who have not played or have not heard of the game. (No citation is needed to prove this, as the inverse, that everyone who has read Tolkien's work has heard of the game, would be the extraordinary claim requiring evidence.) For these people, the original meaning must necessarily be the primary since they either don't know or or don't care about the other.

3147:. WP:Me is of course not "the most objective" project, but Angband is not "a minor aspect": it is of vital importance, since all history of the First Age is connected to and resulting from it. Compare for example the number of articles linking to game and to fortress pages. Many articles mention Angband (game) only as a parent version of ZAngband etc. It is also to be noted that current version of Angband (M-e) is more stub-like, but can (and hopefully will) be greatly expanded in future. Moreover, it seems to be the current tendency in Knowledge to give major M-e articles without disambiguation, compare 4010:. The only people that would be aware of it would be the cooperative 'active community' that plays it. If this were a copyright hearing, there would be a cease and desist order slapped on the game's creators. To argue what should be the precedent is a laughable endeavor. We are talking about literature that predates modern computer science, let alone a game made by some coding junkies with an excess of free time. If anyone wants numbers of how many people know about The Silmarillion versus this game, perhaps we could submit a query to 3623:, and no textbook or reference on dramatic structure would be complete without mentioning it. So let's see how many online resources there are, according to Google, for the HTML anchor tag compared to the inciting incident. If there is no bias online against literary subjects in favor of computer-related subjects, we have no reason to expect that one would dominate over the other, as they are both elementary and vital parts of any "how-to" guide in their respective fields. 3577:.) Many of those who do not, offer online sales/downloads as an an alternative distribution channel. This is an extremely broad market, and there is no clear dominant player. Books are also sold online, but I shouldn't have to prove that the market is overwhelmingly dominated by Amazon. And far fewer e-books are sold than physical books, so the online files where literary references might be present are less common. Tolkien's work isn't available in electronic form at all. 31: 175: 131: 1402:, or whether GA is separate from it. As of right now, 9 articles are rated A-class in this WikiProject, usually just to distinguish them from B-class articles, and none of these are Good Articles. We really need to create a well-defined system for classifying these articles. I really don't know much about the inner workings of assessments, so I'll try to help, but I'm leaving the experts to nitpick about this issue. -- 867: 213: 4041:. What may be in 20 years time is a matter for us to consider in 20 years time and not before. None of the points Ryecatcher773 raises are especially pertinent. That the game is "low-fi" does not affect its notability, nor the alleged status of its creators and maintainers as "coding junkies with excess free time" (which clearly qualifies as a personal attack). Our conventions call for the article " 3460: 3471: 3076:

as Knowledge is concerned) a "pretty unique word", because it clearly has two quite different meanings. I don't mean this as a criticism, but I am not convinced that WikiProject Middle-earth is likely to be the most objective group for determining primacy in cases like this, where there is one Middle-earth topic and one basically non-Middle-earth topic.

1514:) The Commons people and us should have advertised it here more widely, but mybe it was (I can't remember). One of the problems is that the discussion actually took place several months ago, but a technical problem meant it went un-noticed for about 6 months and was only closed recently. Also, things have been slow around here anyway I also believe 3861:

the name on Knowledge knows of Tolkien's Angband, while the reverse cannot be said. Although we cannot verify it, it is reasonable to assert that the majority of those coming to Knowledge and looking up Angband, will expect to find Tolkien, but not necessarily a video game article. This is particularly relevant in light of the recently released

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but Knowledge does. Rather than having a map on every location page it might be better to link specific locations to a few regional pages with maps. Of course, we have also talked about making alot of the small location pages into lists - which would help to consolidate things and cut down on the number of 'fair use' images needed. --

3117:. Tolkien's works have been read by hundreds of millions worldwide who therefore know what "Angband" means, but the computer game "Angband" is known only to a relatively small group of geeks. "Very popular" in this context doesn't mean much even to the wider audience of gamers. "Massively dominant"? Oh, please! 2562:); the template familytree hasn't been translated, so you can also use it on your wiki... there are some links that are different, but they can be corrected in a few minutes (and some words: figlio=son, figlia=daughter figlie=daughters continua=continues Re=King etc.). I guess it'd be useful for you ;) 3313:

This is incorrect reasoning, and you have not corrected sufficiently for Internet bias. If it is at all popular, the name of a computer program distributed solely over the Internet -- or for that matter, the name of any computer-related subject -- will always show up more in search engines regardless

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Derived status is not an issue in article naming. The only question is "What will the average reader expect/desire when typing in 'Angband'?" If no answer is overwhelmingly dominant, then that suggests that a disambiguation page is called for. To respond to Eruhildo, "Angband" is not (at least as far

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Obviously, I can neither control nor actually stop anyone from using what imagery of mine they decide to use on a site, but as I am generally dealing with people who appreciate the illustrations, I have run into few problems. (Most of the more amusing ones have been honest enough site owners who were

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I took part in the discussion also, and posted a notice here months ago that the maps were likely to be deleted. In anticipation of that I copied them all locally and could thus re-upload them to Knowledge under fair use guidelines if we want to go that route. Commons doesn't allow 'fair use' images,

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Knowledge's guidelines on this are fairly simple. If one usage is vastly more likely to be intended by a person typing the term in a link or search box then the term should go directly to that usage. Otherwise it should go to a disambiguation page. There are currently 61 pages linked to the computer

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When it comes down to it, 20 years from now the game will only appear in computer history books, but people will still be reading the Silmarillion. At least that's my prediction. I don't play that type of game very often so I don't really have a feel for exactly how popular it is these days, but I

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I second Fang Aili's motion. Angband was (and is) first and foremost a creation of Tolkien. Not only is the game's name derivative, I would question the validity of it's copyright and/or permission to use the name Angband -- if it (they) even exist. By right of primogeniture, Tolkien's Angband holds

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OK, another suggestion. Are dab pages really needed when there's only two articles to disambiguate? If it is present, then when a user types Angband in search or somewhere, he will need to look through a dabbing page no matter what he wished to find; while if one of pages in question is placed under

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It seems to be that there is a strange derivation between the image and text (article) fair use policy. I mean this is just clear -- people made maps of areas that the book's didn't even have maps of... and they are deleted because they derive from copyrighted works. I dunno -- all the articles that

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He seems to be asserting that the process must take 5 days -- no such requirement exists in reality -- and it seems that notwithstanding my original post was made back in April and that the original supporting comments were made starting 3 July, he's setting the time for the start of the process to

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The relevant point isn't priority, it's that the game was named for the Tolkien creation for which the priority of the latter is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition. The origin of the name is acknowledged in the game's documentation: the game's creators were themselves Tolkien fans, which is

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Tolkien's Angband, as well as the Knowledge article about it, came first. The article on the game itself states that it is based on Tolkien's work, so where's the argument? Being that Tolkien is credited in the game article, and on the game's website, it is obvious that most everyone who who search

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quantified so precisely and is subject to interpretation. I think the argument that most people searching on the game know of the existence of the fictional location in the stories is accurate - and thus that they would not be surprised to get the location. However, again neither destination seems

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You're correct, and that's partially the point, Eruhildo. The game itself isn't even a licensed or commercially viable product. It's a low-fi game put together along the same lines as the stuff that was around in the early to mid 80's. We aren't talking about a legitimately product licensed by the

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After re-reading your comment above, I see you really are trying to assert that the computer games are a more prominent use for those words than their common English dictionary definitions. I'm sorry, but you have obviously lost all perspective. I think you may need to turn the computer off and go

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lists a Tolkien book at the top. The next two are about the game, the one after that Tolkien, the next the game, and the last three on the first page Tolkien. On the next page, only one book mentions the game; the rest are all Tolkien. You can browse through more of the first few pages: guess what

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As I tried to convey before, primary usage is not determined by earliest use. No-one has ever doubted that the game is named after the Tolkien creation. The question is only which is the more prevalent usage now. Searching the Internet (with all the provisos to which that is subject) suggests that

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itself a bare majority seem to be intended for the fictional location and about a quarter each for the game and those actually intended for the disambig page. Thus, the location is clearly more frequently linked, but not overwhelmingly so. Which term users are more likely to search for cannot be

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Last but not least, that the use of the image be in accordance with the image itself. This is perhaps hard to make clear, but I would refuse, for example, use of one of my pictures to promote ideas, concepts or undertakings with which I disagree, or for which the image's prime purpose is only to

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Who remembers that song that Pippin sings for Denethor as Faramir is riding out to try to retake Osgiliath? Well, it's called The Edge of Night, and it's up for deletion. If any of you feel strongly about it's being kept, then it (or deleted), then it would be great if you could visit here:

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that those who watch this talk page (and, by extension, those who post comments here) are likely to have a considerable pro-Tolkien bias and to express it. This is why I have been trying to find independent sources to compare the two; very few individuals will be qualified to compare them

3865:, in which the place name 'Angband' appears frequently. Being that the game article cites Tolkien, we can go ahead and assume that Tolkien's Angband needs no disambiguation. Everything derived from Tolkien's creation, however, necessitates disambiguation. The original article does not. 1314:

page and have added my link to the progress of my work on the character called "A Defense of Character: Boromir" and it is NOT spam. I have in the past edited the main section about Boromir including the passage from "The Departure of Boromir" along with other useful information. -

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I just had to bring it to attention to two WikiProjects. It's a vote about moving "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (film)" to "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King". Just click the link, note I'm a member of neither projects I brought this attention to.

3200:. Disambiguation pages are not necessary when there is one primary topic and one (or two) other topics; these can then be linked with hatlinks. Where there are two topics of roughly equal importance, a disambiguation page can be necessary. The first examples I could find are 1632:

and noticed several recent deletions. What should be done about these, if anything? I think expired prods can be contested, but ones deleted via AfD will be more problematic. These are also a mixed bunch, some are rubbish articles, while some are worth saving, in my opinion.

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the game is actually more significant than the fictional location. Trying to de-skew those results to compensate for the inevtiable computer bias towards the computer game probably leaves the two about equal. Certainly, there is enough doubt about primacy to warrant

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By the same token, a bunch of people sitting in front of computers are not the most objective group for judging whether a computer game or a literary reference is more prominent in general. Nor is Google the best criterion for deciding between something that exists

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came first, but that doesn't matter. Chronological order is not relevant. Derivative status is not relevant. None of these things is relevant. Primary usage is not determined by age. The section on "primary topic" does not mention age, because age is not relevant.

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I have to agree with TCC here... I'm inclined to believe Tolkien's Angband is better known simply because it chiefly appears in print and it predates the game by decades, but I could be wrong. If you ask me, both are somewhat obscure to the "general public"...

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First of all, there is no actual primogeniture rule per se, and it is also matter of common sense. The Angband article, as it relates to Tolkien, was in existence both in literature and Knowledge first. Being thus, it doesn't require a dab subtitle. The game

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created the maps, and was the one that nominated them for deletion. If you want, you can try over there to see if they will allow the debate to be reopened. The map creator also pointed out they are now in use on the lotr wikia (see link at the debate).

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And again, it has only been asserted that there is a computer bias. Who is to say that in this computer-dominated world, a computer-related topic might not actually be more prominent? There is also another sort of bias, which I mentioned briefly above,

1712:, and after looking through it, I'm taking this to deletion review. There needs to be a longer discussion on this. I'll post a link here once I've started the review. Actually, first, I'm discussing with the closing admin and the original AfD voters. 1783:""The Cultural Phenomenon." In this chapter Rosebury examines the "afterlife" of Tolkien's works and attempts to bring Tolkien criticism up to the present moment by considering the "cultural afterlife" of The Lord of the Rings in popular culture." 1372:

but still need fair use rationale, source, and copyright information. Is there any way to generate a list of images under our WikiProject that have been flagged so that the appropriate free use rationale can be added to each page before they are

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I am petitioning to have this page altered to rmeove the restriction against using succession boxes for fictional characters. I think this group has an interest since several related pages for fictional characters are already using these boxes.

4243:. Which is original and derivative is not important for disambiguation. There are two things called Angband, a place in a fictional world and a computer game in the real world, and I don't think the former has 'clearly dominant usage'. -- 3512:

Game Programming With Python, Lua, and Ruby - Page 322 by Tom Gutschmidt - Computers - 2003 - 500 pages. Angband has been around in one variation or another for quite sometime. Its predecessors include Mona (1985) and Rogue (late 1970s).

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As I said above, the Tolkien creation is certainly known to the vast majority of players of the game, and is certainly known to many more besides that. This alone, even absent other considerations, guarantees its greater prominence.

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I agree on most of the moves, though I'm against changing the Ents category since Ents are, to my knowledge, Middle-earth specific. I can't find anything about Ierleaf in the Encyclopedia of Arda so I assuming it is vandalism.

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logged in to a Google account, you might need to check if you have any preferences or filters in place that would affect the results. Click through the first few pages of results anyway, and see what the subjects are overall.

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Games That Sell! - Page 247 by Mark Walker - Computers - 2003 - 550 pages If you die in Angband, you have to start all over again, which makes it massively challenging. Plus, it offers just the right balance of entertaining

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I agree that ME in popular culture should be looked at again. At least, I think that an encyclopedia article could certainly be written about it, without resorting to lists of "when Gandalf was mentioned in XYZ sitcom".

1777:. Please feel free to help out with writing it. In fact, we should have a page in the WikiProject to place pages (as subpages) for rewriting. Does that sound like a good idea? Also, one of the sources I want to use is 2969:

If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no

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Tolkien). The first few results all refer to the game, and thereafter it remains mixed (perhaps leaning towards Middle-earth). This, again, argues for there being no primary topic. Finally, just because gamers have

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computer-related technical organizations have an Internet presence, or so close to all of them that it makes no difference. Most everyone who produces software has a web presence, and many offer their product

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Any tendencies in the naming of other articles are entirely irrelevant. I didn't mean to downplay the importance of Angband to Middle-earth, but the game is also important, and having a disambiguation page at

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should be looked at my someone with knowledge of these games; I cannot tell if the article is talking about fan-created stuff or actual notable games. The other articles were rubbish and should stay deleted.

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would work for all pages. Infoboxes are almost always at the top of the article while portal links are often found at the bottom - though preferences differ and they are sometimes placed at the top as well.

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of the real-world prominence of other meanings of the word. For example, by your logic, the primary uses of the words "doom" and "quake" are for the series of computer games, which is absurd on its face.

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is very popular, and the core around which dozens of derivative games are based. Do a Google search for "Angband" and you'll find that the game is massively dominant, and may even deserve to be moved to

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I'm getting really sick of this whole argument. Can we just make a decision and act on it? From what I can tell, there seems to be one vote against and several votes for a move. Let's just come to a

1665: 2984:), and the current disambiguation page ensures that links can be correctly piped and all links will eventually go where they are supposed to go. If necessary, please direct any further questions to 3987:

believe Tolkien's works to be quite a bit more prominent right now - especially with advent of Jackson's movies. And I believe that it will remain that way in the future. So I still vote for a

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To put it in a nutshell, there are four conditions for use of any of my imagery on a web site (not including of course photos by other persons; in that case their permission must be requested).

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got deleted! :-( From memory, it was unsourced, but it was the beginnings of an article on the subject, and contrary to what the people at the AfD said, there have been studies on this topic.

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is the reason we don't have articles on the more common meaning of "doom" and "quake", not because the computer games are more prominent. You even get the dictionary definition at the top of

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the beginning of his own involvement. Why that should necessarily be the case I don't know. I'm not sure where the 0651z time comes from; it doesn't correspond to anything in the foregoing.

4045:" to host the topic which the majority of readers would expect to find at that title. So far, the only evidence to have been provided that that majority would expect the place featured in 2338: 3231:

Tolkien's is better-known almost as a matter of logical necessity. The origin of the name is no secret to aficionados of the game. They tell you about it right on the index pages of

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If the Eiffel Tower had a game named after it, do you honestly expect that there would be a need to put a dab subtitle like this: Eiffel Tower (Paris)? The answer is a resounding

2310:- I've recently reverted some (obvious) vandalism, but I doubt all the information in there is correct - for instance, I've never heard of a hobbit called "Andwise "Andy" Roper"! 1472:

If the articles seem uninteresting without the maps, then improve the writing! Not all articles are about the geography of Middle-earth, and images other than maps are possible.

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You obviously haven't digested a word of what I've written, I am quickly beginning to realize that you are not a reasonable person. I have nothing more to say to you. Good day.

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I explained why your reasoning was incorrect. You didn't properly adjust for Google bias, and I explained why. And I don't know what Google Books search you did, but this one:

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You assert that my reasoning is false, but without giving details. Yes, there's a computer bias involved, but the whole point about that sort of systematic bias is that it's

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We have this exception for good reasons. That said, perhaps the best way to deal with this would be to have a note with a link in our talk page banner, explaining this. -

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in particular. This is a matter of which came first, and as someone before me already argued, what would reasonably be expected to find under the heading. Tolkien's work

4565: 2281: 3470:, Tolkien's US publisher, which publishes a very wide variety of subjects, yields 8210 results, that's a much smaller proportion of the 31217 titles listed for them at 1142:

Just joining up here. My HS graduation is in a couple of weeks, so I may have a couple papers to write, but other than that I'm willing to help wherever I'm needed. --

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pointed out to me that the usage of the A-class is rather ambiguous. It's debatable on this WikiProject about whether GA is part of the B-A-FA sequence, which would

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Incidentally, the two titles you mention from the Google Books search are the second and third results I see. I'm performing the search while not logged in. If you

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in a subpage of my user pages, but I've never found the time to see whether it is worth salvaging or not. As for my views on ME in popular culture, see my comments

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Still around, but distracted, as seems typical these days. However, notices about any Middle-earth -related or Tolkien-related discussions are more than welcome. -

4500: 4637: 1399: 3878:. The game, Angband, was professedly taken from tales written by him. Knowledge clarifies what protocol for an original topic is and the naming convention for 2230:

I think that merging stubs to lists (allowing a more fully developed section to be split from the list as its own article) seems to be the current "trend". -

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who I'm guessing is the owner of Tolkien-Online.com, the links don't seem to say anything that the Knowledge article doesn't already cover. Anyone oppose? --

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Also, having discussions on multiple project talk pages are a bit awkward if we're not as active as typical forums are; anyway most of it goes here nowadays.

116: 3886:, is known to both the readers of Tolkien and the gamers. Tolkien's Angband article needs no subtitle. Angband, the game, does. Period. End of discussion. 3474:. Considering that at least some of Random House's books are also on computer-related subjects, and there's plainly a very heavy bias toward that subject. 3374:? That source is presumably more or less free from the computer bias because it lists only printed works (and might therefore even have a systematic bias 4673: 4344:

being for the fictional location as that seems overall the more widely known/linked, but practically I think the 'most proper' result is likely to have

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of Tolkien's stories and can therefor only be used under fair-use guidelines... and Knowledge does not allow fair-use images to be used in templates. --

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I disagree that people should be able to delete images from commons that are referenced in WP, without first discussing it on the relevant talk pages.

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the Tolkien creation, that doesn't mean that they think of it first when they hear "Angband", or that they expect to find it, rather than the game, at

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How do you figure that we should discuss until the 15th, Stemonitis? I wouldn't mind discussing until then; i'm just curious where you got that date.

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This seems to me to make a mockery of many of the articles which are relatively uninteresting if they cannot be seen in the context of middle Earth.

96: 3791:"Right of primogeniture"? Where in the naming conventions does this appear? As I have stated above, historical precedents or chronological order are 1906:- not sure if this is going too far - we don't want articles on all the books, but this could definitely be merged with other books later if needed. 2890:, and the choice is between two of Christopher Tolkien's arbitrary spelling decisions. Leave it at the simple spelling and document in the article. 607: 570: 465: 434: 106: 101: 91: 4622: 4519: 2411:

Ergo it should only be linked from here (which I've done), and the license should be changed to give a fair-use rationale (which I haven't done).

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You're not too far wrong, by the way. I can't now recall if "Angband" was ever mentioned in LotR, but Sil was published in 1977 which gives us a

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more likely to be searched for... a substantial number of people will come to Knowledge looking for information on each. I wouldn't object to

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are only referenced by the material itself should all be delete now as well? That seems very extreme. I know that Wikimedia common's didn't

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Apologies for not updating this myself. Hyarion's Tolkien Gateway can, however, since it doesn't have such a policy (not bashing them).

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Why is there a dab page? The subject of this article is the primary meaning of "Angband", and any other use is likely derived from it.

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is a simple, unsourced assertion. Moves requests are, critically, not votes, but rely on the arguments presented, in the light of the

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already. I am willing to go along with whatever decision is made even if I don't agree with. Please, let's just finish this. --

2490:'s talk page: Unfortunately because the "strictly non-commercial" license is not "free", we can't use the images per Knowledge's 681: 517: 512: 502: 412: 407: 375: 3222:

if there's no concrete way of showing which one is more well-known, then both should stay where they are. Back to square one...

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tell the WikiProject about the deletion but its a very significant one and well worth talk about in this location especially.

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article is about the guy who got shot by arrows. There are other Boromirs but that guy is much more prominent. Same goes for

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for now, until it will be merged. I've already come to oppose moving Nienor myself. Someone with administrative rights, move

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Let's do a little test. HTML is the computer language used to author web pages. A very common HTML-related topic is the <

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meaning is given most often. But there's still a bias toward computer-related meanings even there. For example, this search

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When there's no primary topic, the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)" per

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A couple of categories could be renamed to follow common naming conventions (Middle-earth prefix before main subject - cf.

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all maps for the middle earth entries have been deleted yesterday, and the CommonsDelinker removed them from the articles.

1610: 1115:, deleting lots of superfluous material. I've also recently expanded some stubs, especially those related to the Shire. -- 2246:

Since the list of participants at front needs to be updated, why not just have the signing-up/roll call here? (or there?)

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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on computers and is distributed over the Internet, and something that exists primarily in print: I suggest you review

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I've started a draft on a rewrite focusing on the source (FOTR, Three is Company - "A Walking Song") on the article's

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Several images on pages which fall under the scope of WikiProject Middle-earth have been flagged for deletion because

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Busy elsewhere at the moment, but checking in and should be able to resume making more updates in a couple weeks. --

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Who is to say that in this computer-dominated world, a computer-related topic might not actually be more prominent?

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Snipped lots of stuff here that should really be resurrected from the archives and discussion restarted/concluded.

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As I always say: sometimes I get in the mood to assess; so perhaps that mood will strike this period, as well. --

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Trying to add IPA pronunciation to names I know I can pronounce right. Please check them if there is an expert.-

3395:, even if it is the source of the name. Incidentally, you might like to check what articles we actually have at 2687: 1459:

It also makes me wonder why the text content of the articles is ok, as they are arguably derivative works too.

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I just made the roll calls bi-monthly; okay with everyone? We're not very active as a unit anyway right now.

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is the underlying arrangement of plot elements in a story. A very common topic of dramatic structure is the

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The suggestion that the plain title should redirect to a "disambiguation" title is deprecated elsewhere on

1903: 789: 561: 4415: 3344: 3242:. Add to that all the Tolkien readers who know Angband from Sil but have never heard of the game, and QED. 3090: 3077: 2956: 2831: 2584: 2347: 2053: 1862: 803: 796: 782: 4313:

Whose idea was it to discuss this here anyway? How do we find someone objective to close this? I thought

2807:

I agree that 'Ents' is fine as the category name since usage outside 'Middle-earth' is extremely limited.

2626: 1463: 810: 354: 4391: 4349: 4016: 3904: 3428: 3388: 2981: 2915: 2818: 2800:

I went ahead and deleted 'Ierleaf' without waiting for the prod to expire - name was also inserted into

2567: 2403: 1919: 1649: 1530: 1431:), or at least one of them, enough to make GA status, and then carrying on from there. Well, all except 1172: 1157: 696: 530: 425: 385: 2907: 2772: 2616: 1481:

If the maps could be used under fair use, leave me a message and I will temporarily undelete the maps.

4317:

was the place for this sort of thing? Someone ask over there and get this request closed already! :-)

4071:

So far, the only evidence to have been provided that that majority would expect the place featured in

3781:

privilege over a recently invented computer game. It is the game that needs a dab, not the firstborn.

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where the relevant information has been added (ie. effectively the prod has been turned into a merge).

1451: 661: 249: 202: 164: 4586: 4348:

as a disambiguation page (as it is now). I can't really see a case for going directly to the game. --

2980:. Both entries are recognized as significant search topics (see in particular the final post here by 2895: 2861: 2817:

No strong opinion on the spelling issues so long as there are redirects from all likely spellings. --

2307: 2200:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7#The added (film)s in the film trilogy article titles

1994: 1515: 1482: 1071: 1034: 323: 286: 2638: 2580:

There's a couple of move discussions currently going or proposed on M-e talk pages. Any objections?

1316: 2683: 2380: 2130: 1971: 1181: 2911: 2630: 866: 4207: 4170: 4084: 4025: 3978: 3958: 3887: 3782: 3761: 3723: 3612: 3607:

element (the "anchor tag"). You can't write a website without it, since it's how you implement a

3540:

The guy with the degree in Computer Science, that's who. Should I start lecturing you on biology?

3481: 3327: 3266: 3124: 3040: 2992: 2985: 2776: 2768: 2612: 2314: 1922:

and its updated later edition - died last year and also known as a journalist in various fields.

1510:

Actually, some people from the WikiProject (including me) did take part in the discussion. (See:

1503: 1341: 1086: 1081: 1076: 1049: 1044: 1039: 974: 3619:: You can't write a story without it, since it's what sets up the main conflict that drives the 3449: 1778: 4537: 4491: 4014:

for how many editions they have printed (and sold) over the decades as well as the numbers for

1709: 3236: 2106:...perhaps it would be better to give way to the general guidelines... or leave it to a vote. 1698:. I don't remember it being as bad as the AfD says, so maybe it got vandalised at some point? 1655: 1361: 4485: 2765:. In any case we should add stuff about the variations of her name.; there are more than two. 2705: 4438: 4293: 4011: 3620: 3114: 2483: 2432: 2210:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7#Article assessment and importance (part II)

1890: 1152: 1001:

Sorry for the delay in updating the project talk page (again!). Please sign your name below

955: 943: 2559: 4579: 4541: 4527: 4455: 4318: 4220: 4121: 4054: 4038: 3909: 3804: 3529: 3456: 3404: 3301: 3209: 3170: 3094: 2891: 2857: 2848: 2633:, virtually for the same reasons as Beregond. Some disambiguating name must be present as 2412: 2399: 2293: 2221: 2169: 1947: 1943: 1935: 1923: 1907: 1866: 1854: 1786: 1758: 1713: 1699: 1634: 1566: 1520: 1473: 1436: 1391: 1284: 1262: 1244: 1125: 1066: 1029: 3509:

It must depend on IP or something, because following your link, the results I get begin:

3183:

Angband, we have at least 50% chance (or more) that a user finds the target immediately.

2555: 2547: 1865:- a new article on a Tolkien fan, collector and scholar. Thanks to PKM for writing this. 4437:(for as we know, he's quite significant/prominent in the original RotK, together w/ son 4292:

No-one agrees on which is the cleary dominant primary topic, but they all agree one is.

4228: 4203: 3352: 2742: 2738: 2729: 2563: 2126: 1931: 1829: 1825: 1728: 1374: 1253: 1234: 1143: 1134: 950: 3351:, with the hatnote to the video game). I remain open to further arguments, however. -- 3169:

is the logical outcome when neither topic is clearly dominant, as is the case here. --

1565:

Thanks. I've done a rewrite, and Tttom added some references. Let's see what happens.

1331:

Will do what I can when I can. Big fan, but not much on the languages, just the lore.

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to quantify. At least I was using some sort of source. As a second source, how about

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On Template:Middle-earth portal, I don't think that adding it into the infoboxes as

1773:

The 'Middle-earth in popular culture' article is being rewritten in my userspace at

1301:

Still lurking, mostly busy with other projects that have much smaller edit teams. -

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In summary: Angband is an invention of Professor JRR Tolkien. His creation existed

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If anyone wants to pull out or copy a previous discussion, feel free to to do so. —

3650: 2464:"sold" my imagery by someone less scrupulous, rather like the Brooklyn Bridge...) 2180:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7#Lists versus individual articles

4504: 4475: 4442: 4297: 4269: 4195: 4138: 3223: 3054: 3012: 2784: 2508: 2487: 2469: 2359: 2327: 2272: 2250: 2152: 2107: 2067: 2057: 2035: 2021: 2006: 1978: 1961: 1895: 1814: 1741: 1614: 1577: 1293: 1019: 1013: 938: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

2205:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7#Scale and scope of WikiProject

3289:

remaining a disambiguation page. Historical priority is not a valid argument (

3025:, the only other such article, certainly is. I suggest moving this article to 2100: 1998: 1958: 1915: 1749:

We should probably be careful about having too many people articles. I've got

4211: 3883: 3608: 3392: 3184: 3152: 2923: 2709: 2424: 2231: 2134: 2117: 2056:. Just not "Middle-earth universe" or "fictional universe of Middle-earth". 1556: 1323: 1103: 4536:

A mirror copy of the 'Middle-earth in popular culture' article can be seen

4053:

and other standard practices. Please restrict your comments accordingly. --

2762: 2754: 2648: 2133:. Hopefully this will help lessen confusion. Let me know what you think. - 1785:

Unfortunately, I don't actually have a copy of this book. Can anyone help?

1112: 1828:

deletion. You can object and have it restored immediately, if you like. --

4434: 4411: 4399: 4387: 4383: 4007: 3033:

in a hatnote. (Or directly to the other article since there's only one.)

2602: 2190:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7#Image copyright problems

1302: 4386:. But they both lived on Middle Earth. The current above suggestion is " 4426: 4345: 4341: 4332: 4260: 4130: 4042: 3384: 3348: 3317: 3286: 3166: 3086: 3026: 2960: 2588: 1311: 1261:

I've been tied up lately, but I'm available for some editing duties. --

3315: 3293: 2879: 2758: 2750: 2644: 4120:. The process is due to finish on the 15th at around 06:51 (UTC). -- 3259:. The game was first released in 1990, so that's 13 years at least. 3235:, which is still referenced in the online user manual hosted at the 2940:

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.

2267:

I wish we had more illustrations to balance film images - one thing

4251:

Though I believe the book one is dominant (and thus would prefer a

3343:

After reading the above arguments, I agree with the proposed move (

3240: 2757:- "Nienor" is the most commonly known name, similar to the case of 1757:. I'm waiting for a response there before I go to deletion review. 4360:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.

3400: 3148: 2195:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7#Barnstar proposal

1934:

is being expanded following the AfD of Baillie Tolkien's article.

1670: 1292:

Joined June 2007, as much a devotee to Silmarillion as to LotR. --

4163:

Meh. There are no deadlines here and there's no reason to hurry.

3947:

Now can you stop obsessing on "first" and say something to prove

4488:- According to this, C. Tolkien writes the Encyclopedia of Arda. 3396: 3205: 2634: 2398:

Unfortunately, any representation of the One Ring is perforce a

2215:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7#Combining stubs

1975: 4575: 3232: 1740:(PROD, see below) if you can... She's a published illustrator. 2827: 2804:

at about the same time by an anon with a history of vandalism.

2268: 1555:

I figure that people here might want to chime in at this AfD.

1283:

I've just joined. I'll look around and see what I can do. --

25: 4268:

for now. That way neither usage gets "primary" article space.

4331:

game and 103 to the fictional location. Of the 30 linked to

2185:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7#Terminology

1512:

Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Category:Middle Earth maps

4003: 2450: 1894:- very few or no other articles that link to this one. --- 1012:

May not be able to contribute for a while in the future...

4002:

Tolkien Estate, or through New Line Cinema. This isn't an

3431:-- do you really think there should be an article on that? 2550:. Some days ago we've done the complete familytree of the 2546:

Hi! I'm a member of the wiki Italian project dedicated to

1446:

All map images deleted: Should all the ME articles go too?

3611:, and no reference on HTML would be complete without it. 2433:

http://www.john-howe.com/forum/smf/index.php?topic=1910.0

4520:

Knowledge talk:WikiProject Middle-earth#Recent deletions

1060:

03:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC) and new categories regarding

3463:. On the other hand, although this Google Books search 2086:

Talk:The_Lord_of_the_Rings/archive_03#In_universe_style

1754: 1750: 982: 4020:. If this is to be a poll, then I cast my stone for a 3795:

irrelevant to page naming. Please read and understand

2728:

I agree with Eruhildo. Also never heard of Ierleaf. --

3882:

with regards to dab. Angband as a place in Tolkien's

1710:

a mirror version of 'Middle-earth in popular culture'

1874:

Russian writers who've published their fan fiction:

4610: 2077:

Present tense vs. past tense, and in-universe style

73: 4494:- not directly a Tolkien hoax article, but read... 3089:instead. Certainly, I can't see a case for moving 2457:attract attention to something entirely different. 2091:Talk:The_Lord_of_the_Rings#In-universe_perspective 2034:Perhaps we should start working on listification. 1550:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Middle-earth canon 861: 2282:Knowledge:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) 2096:Talk:The_Lord_of_the_Rings#synopsis_in_past_tense 1274:article (we could use some more help too ^_^). -- 3011:since the tag said it should be discussed here. 2101:Talk:Arwen#Past_tense_used_in_fictional_articles 1775:User:Carcharoth/Middle-earth in popular culture 1675:List_of_Middle-earth_weapons#Weapons_in_general 1252:I've got my Tolkien encyclopedia at the ready! 4501:Knowledge:Bad Jokes and Other Deleted Nonsense 3839:I think you are the one who ought to read the 2220:So let's not lose track of those discussions! 4587: 3080:is a fairly minor aspect of Tolkien's works; 2847:. I have no opinion on the other requests. -- 2164:Lots of stuff in archives (from last archive) 1400:Knowledge:WikiProject Middle-earth/Assessment 1364:. These images are all screenshots from the 8: 3062:I agree, Angband is a pretty unique word. -- 2020:Any updates on these? Fixed-pitch graphics. 74:Tolkien articles by quality and importance 4594: 4580: 4572: 4378:There are two Beregonds, one described in 3391:, but that's not what I expect to find at 2052:". I suggest making "legendarium" link to 2048:It seems the general consensus is to use " 1124:Busy, but checking in here occassionally. 70: 2066:Or why not just "Middle-earth writings?" 1310:Just joined this group, I often edit the 2524:I thought I'd ask here before reverting 2443:That the use be strictly non-commercial. 1690:The one I am most interested in here is 1018:Computer access severely restricted.... 864: 128: 1398:(but not always) put A above GA as per 105: 100: 95: 90: 18:Knowledge talk:WikiProject Middle-earth 3843:a bit more closely, the subheading of 2373:I would suggest you to use this pic ( 2326:Thanks for reverting the bogus stuff. 2151:- will entail rewriting whatever way. 1427:I suggest improving those 9 articles ( 60:Tolkien articles by quality statistics 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4227:Corrections and addendums welcome. -- 1673:- prod, now recreated as redirect to 172: 110: 7: 3903:It does not matter what came first. 3657:dramatic structure inciting incident 3208:, but there are plenty of others. -- 212: 210: 2963:, per the discussion below. As per 2446:That the work be properly credited. 115: 4129:As a compromise, I suggest making 2886:is probably better known than the 2679:Category:Mountains of Middle-earth 2003:Talk:Battle of the Pelennor Fields 1414:The Lord of the Rings film trilogy 1366:The_Lord_of_the_Rings_film_trilogy 24: 4674:WikiProject Middle-earth subpages 4075:is a simple, unsourced assertion. 2976:and would result in a listing at 2306:Could one of you perhaps look at 1370:Template:Non-free_film_screenshot 1270:I'm here. Mostly working on the 3803:before posting such comments. -- 2783:. C. Tolkien says "i" is wrong. 2708:page is a vandalism, I suppose? 2030:Lists versus individual articles 1724:Tolkien-based Warcraft III games 1681:Tolkien-based Warcraft III games 926:(22 Feb., 2006 – 24 April, 2007) 908:(23 Aug., 2006 – 29 Sept., 2006) 865: 211: 173: 129: 29: 4524:Middle-earth in popular culture 4499:Perhaps we should have our own 4077:That's false, and you know it. 3455:looking for books published by 2951:The result of the proposal was 2802:List of Middle-earth characters 2674:Category:Realms of Middle-earth 2375:Image:The one ring animated.gif 2337:There is a vote going on right 1692:Middle-earth in popular culture 1662:Middle-earth in popular culture 1233:Busy, but working as I'm able. 914:(30 Sept., 2006 – 7 Dec., 2006) 884:(25 Nov., 2005 – 02 Apr., 2006) 2826:"Ent" has other meanings: see 2669:Category:Hills of Middle-earth 2241:Streamlining Wikiproject stuff 1849:An article to keep an eye on: 1696:"After Tolkien" article series 920:(8 Dec., 2006 – 21 Feb., 2007) 902:(1 July, 2006 – 17 Aug., 2006) 896:(15 May, 2006 – 30 June, 2006) 890:(05 Apr., 2006 – 15 May, 2006) 1: 4190:as articulated above by TCC: 3468:Random House Publishing Group 2225:13:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 2173:12:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 2081:Due to recurring complaints: 1870:13:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 1858:19:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC) 1683:- recreated prod followed by 1383:ex. Image:Elvenruinswide.jpg 1340:Present and accounted for... 964:17:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC) 3880:a well-known primary meaning 2695:Template:Middle-earth portal 2663:Category:Middle-earth rivers 2423: 1694:, as that forms part of the 4503:? Is it against the rules? 3007:Talk:Angband (Middle-earth) 2845:Talk:Angband (Middle-earth) 1946:- created in January 2007. 1362:no fair use rationale given 4690: 3048:20:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC) 2843:Please see my comments at 2688:Category:Middle-earth Ents 2468:So can we use his images? 2276:17:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 2254:16:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 2235:09:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 2138:09:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 2121:09:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 2111:16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 2071:16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 2061:18:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC) 2039:16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 2025:16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 1982:18:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC) 1965:16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 1951:11:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC) 1818:16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 1628:I was looking through the 1570:11:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 1560:19:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC) 1120:22:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1107:09:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1098:04:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC) 1016:16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC) 972: 4459:09:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC) 4446:13:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC) 4419:08:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC) 4353:16:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC) 4322:01:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC) 4301:03:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC) 4288:01:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC) 4273:11:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC) 4232:14:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC) 4178:23:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC) 4142:11:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC) 4125:06:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC) 4116:This is not a vote; read 4111:05:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC) 4092:05:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC) 4058:21:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 4029:20:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 3996:20:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 3982:17:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 3966:23:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC) 3913:17:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 3891:17:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 3851:was around in the 1970's. 3808:16:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 3786:14:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 3769:22:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 3731:23:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC) 3533:06:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC) 3489:22:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 3408:14:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 3356:13:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC) 3335:23:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC) 3305:21:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC) 3274:00:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC) 3227:23:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC) 3213:10:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC) 3188:09:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC) 3174:09:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC) 3156:09:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC) 3132:20:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC) 3098:08:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC) 3016:23:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC) 2998:03:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC) 2927:13:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC) 2900:18:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC) 2866:18:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC) 2852:08:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC) 2835:09:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC) 2641:is likewise from M-e area 2571:13:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC) 2537:06:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC) 2512:00:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC) 2499:23:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC) 2478:For those who didn't see 2473:17:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC) 2416:14:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC) 2407:13:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC) 2297:18:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC) 1939:10:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 1927:10:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 1911:10:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 1899:12:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 1851:The History of The Hobbit 1839:Articles newly made/found 1781:which includes a chapter 1387:A-level assessment system 1327:18:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC) 1306:03:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC) 1297:12:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC) 1007:. Comments are optional. 851: 843: 831: 83: 78: 4603:WikiProject Middle-earth 4545:11:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 4531:09:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 4508:15:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 4479:15:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 4433:. I say he should go to 4363:Please do not modify it. 4265:Angband (disambiguation) 4135:Angband (disambiguation) 3067:17:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC) 3058:09:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC) 3031:Angband (disambiguation) 2943:Please do not modify it. 2822:15:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 2788:15:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 2746:20:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC) 2733:20:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC) 2724:17:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC) 2713:15:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC) 2554:(spread into two parts, 2393:02:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC) 2377:) as wikiproyect logo -- 2363:15:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 2351:01:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC) 2331:11:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC) 2318:10:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC) 2156:15:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 2010:15:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 1805:Articles already deleted 1790:09:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC) 1762:16:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 1745:15:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 1732:14:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 1717:11:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 1703:09:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 1644:Criticism of Neo-Eldarin 1638:09:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 1618:18:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC) 1590:The Edge of Night (song) 1440:00:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC) 1421:19:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC) 1407:00:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 1379:12:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC) 1368:and already contain the 1345:14:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC) 1336:22:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC) 1288:18:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC) 1279:21:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC) 1266:14:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC) 1257:13:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC) 4431:Beregond (Middle-earth) 4408:Beregond (palace guard) 4404:Beregond (Middle-earth) 4396:Beregond (Middle-earth) 4380:Beregond (Middle-earth) 3575:Angband (computer game) 3466:for books published by 3082:Angband (computer game) 3023:Angband (computer game) 2920:Beregond (Middle-earth) 2651:, the spelling used in 2599:Beregond (Middle-earth) 2271:has over our articles. 2001:; suggested by me (see 1833:02:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1800:Categories for deletion 1604:02:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC) 1581:16:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC) 1534:16:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1524:09:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1506:06:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1486:06:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1477:01:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1467:12:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC) 1248:12:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 1239:03:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 1229:13:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC) 1176:16:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 1167:22:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1147:15:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1138:02:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1129:01:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1023:12:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC) 997:Roll call: April - June 4402:. But I would suggest 3951:unsourced assertions? 3345:Angband (Middle-earth) 3091:Angband (Middle-earth) 3078:Angband (Middle-earth) 2957:Angband (Middle-earth) 2585:Angband (Middle-earth) 2466: 2460: 2050:Tolkien's legendarium 1863:Richard E. Blackwelder 1795:Templates for deletion 1322:When time permits.... 4017:The Children of Hurin 4006:game or something by 3905:Melbourne, Derbyshire 3863:The Children of Hurin 3429:Doom (disambiguation) 3389:Melbourne, Derbyshire 2653:The Children of Húrin 2461: 2449:That a clear link to 2437: 2054:Tolkien's legendarium 1920:The Tolkien Companion 1904:The Tolkien Quiz Book 1779:Brian Rosebury's book 1544:Articles for deletion 1416:is a good article. -- 1243:Hello! 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(e.g. 2916:Beregond (Steward) 2914:, and Beregond to 2908:Nírnaeth Arnoediad 2773:Nírnaeth Arnoediad 2769:Nirnaeth Arnoediad 2617:Nírnaeth Arnoediad 2613:Nirnaeth Arnoediad 1844:From last archive: 1650:Tolkien-based MUSH 1376:^..^< Nimfaelin 1236:^..^< Nimfaelin 4661: 4660: 4416:Anthony Appleyard 4382:and the other in 4176: 4090: 3964: 3767: 3729: 3653:: about 1,980,000 3617:inciting incident 3487: 3368:almost impossible 3333: 3272: 3237:new official site 3130: 3046: 2898: 2888:Children of Hurin 2864: 2832:Anthony Appleyard 2451:www.john-howe.com 2369:new logo proposal 2348:TheBlazikenMaster 2324:He's Sam's uncle. 2290:Please Vote Here. 1658:- speedy deletion 1180:I'm available... 1164: 971: 970: 967: 859: 858: 68: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4681: 4596: 4589: 4582: 4573: 4410:, and let plain 4365: 4169: 4083: 4073:The Silmarillion 4047:The Silmarillion 4012:Houghton Mifflin 3957: 3849:The Silmarillion 3760: 3722: 3480: 3472:booksinprint.com 3461:booksinprint.com 3387:. 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