Knowledge talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/August 2015

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Icelandic ones, where Hans Jensson is the son of Jens Eriksson (excuse errors: I do not actually speak Icelandic). I think the convention for Chinese names is more or less universal that they are not messed with; what proportion of the population thinks that Mao Tse Tung was Mr Tung I do not know. But the fact that Chinese names have the family name first is common knowledge, and having discovered it, the problem is conquered. With Japanese names, the principle is different: just planned confusion: names are or are not written backwards, and only an expert can tell. That is why, I believe, WP should provide explicit help on every relevant article.

2558:, in this case the changing of the definition of "first name" and "last name" on the fly to present an absurdity we can all see through. Everyone here, I think, knows full well that "first name" and "given name" are, in English, synonymous, and "last name" and "family name" and "surname" are synonymous. No one could seriously believe they refer to the order in which they appear even when we know that a particular culture uses the opposite ordering used in Western cultures. Even most school children probably would figure that out, and I see no evidence that actual WP editors are too confused to use the parameters correctly. 2869:; though I know from my own memory and bookshelf that he was more often referred to as Soryama Hajime until comparatively recently (and his earlier-edition art books gave his name this way), most coverage I can find via Google today now uses Western name order. WP:COMMONNAME would require us to use this Western order for both subjects. That doesn't make it a default for everyone. News sources are not the only reliable sources, either. If we don't settle on the native Japanese name order of family-first, then we probably should have no convention at all, especially not one cut in half by an arbitrary date. Simply follow 3449:). Since these games were only released in Japan, and my grasp on the language is still quite basic, I was wondering if anybody at this WikiProject would be able to help me (I'm assuming there's quite a few people here that speak the language quite fluently). If you can find any information regarding the development, or some of the reviews, please let me know. Similar development/reception information regarding the Japan-exclusive Nintendo DS version of the game ( 35: 2321:

COMMONNAME "Shinzo Abe", because that's what the vast majority of widely-read newssources use (and thus what most readers will expect)? Or is it "Abe Shinzō", because that's what the vast majority of specialized articles (and thus RSes) use? And repeat for every single Japanese bio article—and it's guaranteeed to be fight after fight as each figure has a different balance of newssources vs specialized sources.

3673:, the last Shogun. There is a corresponding entry in the infobox of Yoshinobu's article. I do not agree with the articles saying that the two subjects preceded/succeeded each other. The main reason being that there was a period of almost 20 years in between them during which time other groups of people were de facto rulers. But before deleting the two entries, I would like to hear the opinion of others. Thanks, 1994: 2893:) what the "true" common name may be by further weighing and constrasting various sources that are themselves trying to figure out what they should do. The clear fact of the matter certainly seems to be that the two forms in English-language sources are in flux (even "transition" is a stretch, since it implies that the trend toward given-first will be permanent, a 2365:. The rationale for the name order has nothing to do with the rationale for including the diacritic; they're totally severable arguments. We wouldn't have "endless talk page battles" over this sort of thing if people would actually pay attention to RM and AT discussions and their results. The entire purpose of 3276: 2937:

It's not only the news, but also the vast majority of non-Japanologist/non-Japan-specialist publications use Western order for modern Japanese people. Remember that Knowledge's audience is the average person, so the naming order should reflect what one would expect the average Joe to see. If there is

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There's no irony involved. I was speaking of editors, but the same applies to readers. If we are providing both names, it doesn't matter which order they are in as anyone who spends an hour or even less looking into topics about a Japanese person will be able to figure out pretty quickly which is the

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what is followed. There is no made-up convention here. It was established because that's what academic articles and other reliable sources were doing at the time it was created. It was vetted by those who knew what was going on at the time it was created, so there's no need to say it has no standing.

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where he says: "However, Japanese almost invariably give their names in the Western order when using Western languages. This practice, also universally followed in Western newspapers, magazines and most books, became established in the Meiji period (1868–1912), when Japan was opened up to the West."

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I don't think I am knowledgeable enough to comment on best practices here; but as an intelligent reader/editor who is semi-literate in Japanese and Japanese topics and could conceivably stray into these articles -- I have on my desk a book on early Japanese art I was considering working from when I

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a WP:COMMONNAME case to be made, without question, for the subject at hand, then use the native name order. Very simple solution, nothing to argue endlessly about. Apply a basic principle: Go back to what we know is a certain fact. We know what Japanese name order is. We may get conflicting hints

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that erstwhile guideline. It appears to be based on an arbitrary date, and is not even being used consistently. On top of this, it's leading to cases where different styles are being used in the same article based on the birthdates of the persons to whom the names apply. I have to strongly suggest

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is to do precisely that, and codify as best practices some standards based on observation of what WP has been deciding via consensus and why. I appears to be failing in this regard, and is instead codifying whatever is wanted by whoever yells the loudest and longest on insular talk pages like this

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for any naming. I think the current guideline is very clear, and gives preference to the most commonly used in reliable sources, even if it is someone born prior to 1868. If it can be established in reliable sources that the 1868 divide no longer exists (it did almost 10 years ago when this MOS was

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There is an international standard (if only I knew the name for it) where surnames are capitalized in citations. It seems pretty common in parts of Europe, and I've seen it with some frequency in English documents from China and Japan. I doubt it would gain traction in running prose on Knowledge,

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Yes, "mixed" articles are obviously inconsistent and confusing. The MoS should be a "Manual of Style", and the first rule of style (George Orwell, I think) is "Break any of these rules rather than commit a barbarity". The guideline of pre/post 1868 is not necessarily one I like, but it is clear and

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Thanks. The two newspaper sources do indeed have significant coverage of the Rio school, and neither of the authors are named, so we should assume that the sources were both written by the newspapers' journalists and are therefore independent. The other source is primary, as the author is a former

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The irony appears to have passed you by, but we are not concerned with the problems of editors, but with the problems of readers. A passing Icelander who sees that Hakuei Ishii is described as the son of Ishii Teiko might reasonably be excused for the misunderstanding that Japanese names work like

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Then the obvious answer is to give the names in the order they really are in real life for these subjects, the native family-first order of Japanese, since the English-language sources are so inconsistent that they even contradict each other from sentence to sentence. This conclusion appears to be

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I believe that something should be added to the MoS stating that uniformity of name order within an article is preferred, with the order used for a given article determined by its primary subject(s). It wouldn't be a perfect rule (I'll admit that seeing "Ieyasu Tokugawa" would be a little jarring)

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The hatnote should say something like: "In this article Japanese names are written in Family-Given order" (or vv), with a link to an article that explains the source of confusion. This is not a question of putting emphasis on a convention, it is about letting the intelligent but not Japan-informed

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The sentence would work without "which is also the name of a specific sect within the branch". The fact that Nichiren-shū is also a sect could be mentioned in the "Major Nichiren Buddhist schools and organisations" section. Alternatively, this clause could be put in a footnote: 日蓮宗 Nichiren-shū

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That's not entirely consistent, though. It appears to done more frequently by some English-language publishers than others, done more today than it was a few years ago, and done for some subjects more than others – possibly because the subjects favor it themselves, or because some publishers feel

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is unequivocally the other way around and be done with it. We have simple templates for the latter kind of case so that we can construct lead sentences of the form "Givenname Familyname (Japanese: Familyname Givenname) is...", thus obviating any confusion of the "This person is Japanese, so that

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I've long had a problem with the "|last=" and "|first=" parameters' names, myself. While something like "family" and "given" should be aliases to them, it's still really obvious what their purpose is, and they do their job adequately. The objection to the parameters on the basis of their names is

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without any fallback. The current wording is meant to catch anything not covered by COMMONNAME. As for naming order differences within an article, does it really matter? If people are interested in someone whose name order might be opposite that of the article topic, they can go to that entry and

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I too would support a Knowledge decree of one or the other across the encyclopedia, but as long as the order differs from one article to another, I think it ought to vary within an article as well. The reason is that the rule appears to be one not of writing style, but of naming style. The idea

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The Shingikai mentioned allcaps for FN, and you see it sometimes in bibiliographies and on meishi. If we did that I agree that it could get annoying in body text. Maybe only the first instance in a biographical article? And if we did that we should use a template (ultimately a CSS style) because

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more to the issue than you're aware, and I think eveyone here will assure you that using COMMONNAME for evey single last article will result in thousands of endless talkpage battles over what's "really" the COMMONNAME for any particular figure: for isntance, the current prime minister. Is his

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myself. You're no doubt unfamiliar with the endless talkpage battles over name order that already occur with Japanese names—taking away a default will only multiply and lengthen those—and I doubt you'll find a WP:JAPAN regular who disagrees with that assertion. COMMONNAME utterly fails with

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Many of us would like to see it go all FAMILY-GIVEN (especially those of us who live with that style day-to-day), but (a) there's much opposition to that (which is how we got here in the first place); and (b) it seems to fly right in the face of COMMONNAME, as newssources overwhelmingly use

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I can agree with you. In the article, it says "On November 9, 1867, Yoshinobu tendered his resignation to the Emperor and formally stepped down ten days later, returning governing power to the Emperor." Following year, on Junuary 3, 1868, Meiji government abolished the position of shogun

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To get back to what User:Imaginatorium said earlier, the very problem here appears to be that we are doing something consistent with Chinese (family name first, followed by give name), but not doing this for Japanese. The result is confusing to readers, and to editors not steeped in

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So every Japan-related article would have a hatnote that explains the 1868 issue? IMO, that would put an absurd amount of emphasis on a convention that only Knowledge follows. Other encyclopedias use family name-given name across the board. In my view, we should do the same.

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for details of why this "use academia-approved names and styles" approach is irrational when applied to Knowledge. And if most sources give the name order as Shinzo Abe, but we know the first part of that properly has the diacritic, then the article title here should be

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reader know what is going on. If there have to be some names one way, others the reverse, then this really should be clarified. Incidentally, a much simpler approach really is to do something like underlining the family name (a passport convention at least at some time).

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signed in today -- my thought is just that the more clarity, the better. If this requires a hatnote so be it. If the date is arbitrary perhaps this should be addressed. If the practice was brought over from articles about Chinese topics, this may be wrong. That is all.

3250: 1331: 1327: 1323: 2653:). I think that would actually be a good idea since there is less of a problem with installing Japanese characters now than there used to be (most modern OSes have Japanese enabled by default, as far as displaying the characters when browsing). ··· 1306: 1973:

but I think it would be an improvement over the status quo. I suspect that incremental improvement is the best that can be aimed for; so long as the MoS calls for using different orders in different situations we'll always have edge cases.

3194:. 13 March 2008. Retrieved on 8 May 2015. "リオデジャネイロ日本人学校（藤内博校長）は小学部と中学部の２部構成で、それぞれ６学級の児童11人、１学級の生徒２人の計13人。同校は60年、石川島播磨重工がイシブラス造船所に派遣された社員の子弟の企業内教育施設（日本語補習校）を開設したのが始まりで、生徒53人で授業が行われた。80年代には創立最多の約４００人の生徒数となった。しかし、94年に同造船所が閉鎖されたのを機に減少していった。" 2424:: I made no such supposition—I presented both POVs as an example of where this will quickly boil down to endless "discussions" about which name order is best for each article, depending on the mix of newssources vs academic sources 1392: 1720:

Should MoS-JA be amended to allow uniform name orders in cases like this? And how far should this be taken—should an article on Japanese history have both "Tokugawa Ieyasu" and "Shinzō Abe"? How broad should the grey zones be?

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You're making the frequent but serious mistake in supposing that, for COMMONNAME purposes, news sources are not reliable, or at least are less reliable than specialist ones. The exact opposite is the case. The very point of

2873:. It can usually be determined through an n-gram search. For unusually new subjects (e.g. newly notable young actors) the sources cited in the article should be enough to figure it out. If there are hardly any to cite, cf. 2130:

appears to be that the writer doesn't choose a person's name, the person or the society in which he lived does. Saying what we call a person depends upon who else is mentioned in the same article seems pretty odd to me.

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that a student who attends an "unauthorized school" can still get into a Japanese university if he/she gets an IB diploma and/or Cambridge certification. Is there a reference/source which states this to be the case?

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But let's be realistic: If, as Curly Turkey suggests above, this solution is not actually tractable, because too often the sources are about evenly split, and any given English-language source may even contradict

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template and give basic instruction there. That is found on almost every article about a Japanese topic, so it would require minimal effort getting it into articles since it's already there. Right now, it links to

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I wrote the section on naming in English for the Japanese names article. The sources I used say explicitly that the common naming of Japanese people in English is different from those of Chinese and Koreans.

3540:. The previous wording was both technically inaccurate and insufficient, but the new wording is probably unreadable. Since I wrote it it's kind of difficult to be objective (obviously it's not unreadable to 1378: 3632:) disagrees. If I am indefinitely banned from "Japanese culture" -- the only topic area I have ever shown any interest in editing -- I'm probably going to leave Knowledge, except to maybe appeal the ban. 1256: 3111:

Is the person who wrote the book independent of the school? Did the school have any role in producing the book? In other words would this count as a reliable, independent secondary source on Knowledge?

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If you don't know enough about Japanese names to know which is surname and which is given name, perhaps you shouldn't be working on article about Japanese topics? It's really not hard to figure out. ···

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read up. If there isn't currently an article for that person, they will still be able to find the info on the person as they will have the full name. I don't see that it's a huge cause of confusion. ···

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article involving Japanese names should have a headnote explaining what is going on. If there is an article about Shinzo Abe's comments on Tokugawa Ieyasu, well, again the headnote should explain.

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Nihonjoe, your humour chips appear to be deactivated—the "irony" is the suggestion of using the "|last=" parameter for the part of the name that comes first (the parameter is not "|surname=").

1412: 1338: 1488: 1483: 1478: 1276: 1289: 1458: 1453: 3227:) are well known Japanese papers in Brazil. I think the authors are independent of the schools, but I'd like to know whether they give significant, non-routine coverage to the topic. 3211:, Japanese Chamber of Industry and Commerce in RJ (Câmara de Comércio e Indústria Japonesa do Rio de Janeiro/リオ・デ・ジャネイロ日本商工会議所). 特集リオ・デ・ジャネイロ日本商工会議所50周年記念誌「創立50周年－更なる未来へ」. p. 33-35. 1233: 1168: 1103: 1038: 973: 908: 843: 778: 713: 648: 583: 518: 453: 388: 323: 258: 193: 128: 1990: 1473: 1468: 1463: 1198: 1183: 1178: 1133: 1118: 1113: 1068: 1053: 1048: 1003: 988: 983: 938: 923: 918: 873: 858: 853: 808: 793: 788: 743: 728: 723: 678: 663: 658: 613: 598: 593: 548: 533: 528: 483: 468: 463: 418: 403: 398: 353: 338: 333: 288: 273: 268: 223: 208: 203: 158: 143: 138: 3743: 2371: 1448: 1193: 1173: 1128: 1108: 1063: 1043: 998: 978: 933: 913: 868: 848: 803: 783: 738: 718: 673: 653: 608: 588: 543: 523: 478: 458: 413: 393: 348: 328: 283: 263: 218: 198: 153: 133: 1625: 1621: 1617: 1613: 1609: 1605: 1601: 1228: 1163: 1098: 1033: 968: 903: 838: 773: 643: 578: 513: 448: 383: 318: 253: 188: 123: 1527: 1208: 1203: 1143: 1138: 1078: 1073: 1013: 1008: 948: 943: 883: 878: 818: 813: 753: 748: 688: 683: 623: 618: 558: 553: 493: 488: 428: 423: 363: 358: 298: 293: 233: 228: 168: 163: 103: 98: 2422:

You're making the frequent but serious mistake in supposing that, for COMMONNAME purposes, news sources are not reliable, or at least are less reliable than specialist ones.

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from different kinds of sources what the "preferred" rendering is in English (but preferred by whom, according to whom?), and this is indeterminate, so we should not

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Another user and I are up for a mutual topic ban from "Japanese culture" because our mutual interaction ban has been an absolute failure. I and at least one other (

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The current MoS-JA specifies we should use the FAMILY–GIVEN name order for those born before 1868, and GIVEN–FAMILY for those born 1868 or later, unless trumped by

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on conflicting sources that don't agree on a matter that ultimately devolves to a form of POV pushing about how Japanese names "should" be rendered by Westerners.

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inescapable. If there is no determinable common name , then using the native name form, which is to be found in reliable sources and is consistent, must, per

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It's been what's used for almost 10 years, so (if nothing else) it's the defacto standard since everyone is using it as a basis for such decisions. ···

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on the same page, then the obvious solution is to do what the native language does (family first), and dispense with any attempt to try to figure out (

3330: 3280: 1541: 1523: 3391:, some Japanese universities will accept IBs only, but most also require the National Center Test of University Admissions. That's also backed up by 1655: 21: 1818:

Both of your examples are items that were added recently, I believe as part of the 2014 supplement. Otherwise, I think they are pretty consistent.

2650: 2642: 1577: 3693:), so Tokugawa Yoshinobu is the last shogun of all time. In regards to the governing power, Emperor Meiji is the one who succeeded in 1867.-- 1679: 1533: 1709:. This leads to situations on the edge where, within a single article, certain figures will be FAMILY–GIVEN and others GIVEN–FAMILY—as in 1587: 3628:) believe the TBAN proposal is too broad and should be changed to "new religious movements based on Nichiren Buddhism". The proposer ( 3368: 2357: 1687: 3029: 2922: 2810: 2570: 2530: 2474: 2400: 2254: 2234:). Thereafter, use a consistent format within the article. And, no, don't use small-caps or all-caps. In reference citations, use 2729:

You know, the real humour of the situation is that no matter how many times it's explained to you, you still don't get the joke.

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uses that name order officially in English-language publications of the Japanese government, including his own official website.

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tactic. This is the very crux of the LOCALCONSENSUS problem, and it's why more and more style discussions are centralizing at

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for the title (it's policy, and trumps any made-up 1868 "convention" that only exists on WP and hasn't even been vetted by

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Having said that, I'm not opposed to changing the MoS to FAMILY–GIVEN across the board, but that should be determined in a

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I added the citations to the page. If there's something saying the Japanese accept Cambridge exams that would help too

2325:"solution" to this problem is "wrong" in some important way, and we're trying to figure out the most workable solution 1713:, where Hakuei Ishii is described as the son of Ishii Teiko. Such an example consciously follows the guidelines, but 3755: 3720: 3702: 3682: 3651: 3605: 3586: 3558: 3523: 3507: 3464: 3419: 3405: 3381: 3357: 3342: 3316: 3300: 3277:

pt:Wikipédia:Páginas para eliminar/Associação Civil de Divulgação Cultural e Educacional Japonesa do Rio de Janeiro

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a split with any subject on how many sources use Western naming order versus Japanese naming order, consider the

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Not to mention the obvious irony of using LAST= and FIRST= to clarify, um, which is last and which is first?

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and he identifies "scholarly publications" and especially those by Japan specialists as the main exception.

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it's become conventional in specific contexts (e.g. for government figures and for actors). As an example,

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reasoned, but it should be used to determine the name order used within an article. I also think that

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Yes, please ping participants in this and related discussions when you introduce that as a proposal.

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first-occurring name is the family name, right?" variety. No problem, all fixed, please move on.

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If it's okay, Mr. Stradivarius, there's three other sources that I'd like for you to evaluate:

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Yes, it's this topic, although the issue is actually an AFD on the Portuguese Knowledge:

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In the case of the Ishiis mentioned above, neither yet has an English Knowledge article.

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in the crcumstance I gave above: Where Hakutei ISHII is given as the son of ISHII Teiko.

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surname. Regarding providing help for people, we can co-opt the little ? created by the

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that names (at least modern ones) should usually have an order hatnote. In most cases

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Thank you all for your help. I will evaluate what can be done in the voting page. --

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That's bizarre. It's not like that on the DVD. Everyone is given family name first.

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the feelings of involved editors as to which deserves more weight. You'll notice

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we are not in a position to prove). Far too much weight is being given to what,

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That's not ironic. That's just bad design on the part of the template makers. ···

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It looks like the requirements vary from university to university. According to

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Associação Civil de Divulgação Cultural e Educacional Japonesa do Rio de Janeiro

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

3711:. Since it's been a week and nobody else has spoken up, I'll make the changes. 3437: 3281:

wants help in determining whether the sources meet the criteria for notability

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Japanese names, as both configurations are typically very common—sometimes

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actual allcaps would mess up the metadata. About the order, I agree with

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But seriously, like I said, this is not the place for this discussion.

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Some input from other WikiProject Japan members would be appreciated.

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1. Nichiren-shū also the name of a specific sect within the branch.--

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But unfortunately I couldn't find any information about development.--

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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 August 28#New army sword

3395:. There should be quite a few other sources available in English. — 3512:

Thank you for finding those! I'm sure they will be very helpful. –

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Oh, we could easily solve that by adding |下= and |上= parameters.

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books, 46）日本貿易振興会, 1998.2. NCID: BA35636978. ISBN: 4822408108.

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name in English usage, not the "most favored by academics". See

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Just made a super-messy edit to an article lead -- any advice?

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that this whole idea is a dismal failure and must be abandoned

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trump a WP-invented "convention" based on an arbitrary date.

63: 3003:

Interesting proposal—I look forward to seeing it proposed.

2867: 2747:

at humour, but I just didn't find it humourous myself. ···

3363:

IB and/or Cambridge eligibility for Japanese universities

3619:

Knowledge:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposal

3435:

Hi there! I'm looking for some references regarding the

2793:. Just use family name first, except in cases where the 3734: 3662: 3537: 3068:

Unarchived so that an editor can assess the consensus.

1664: 3477:, mostly about the background of relationship between 2372:

Knowledge talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles

2052:

is taken—that's be the easiest template name. Maybe

2901:

various news sources are doing. If the there isn't

3453:) would also be greatly appreciated. Thank you! – 1701:RfC: How strict should MoS-JA be about name order? 2316:this is not a LOCALCONSENSUS issue, and there is 2384:, and naming discussions not involving style at 3088:I have some questions about the book about the 1911:but I think it would be an elegant solution to 1684:talk:Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (manga) 3544:). Any thoughts on how it could be improved? 2866:now does likewise on his own official website 8: 3669:, Japan's first Prime Minister, "succeeded" 3742:have been nominated at RfD. Your input at 3096:Mine, Toshirō (峰敏朗). イスタンブール日本人学校. 峰敏朗著（ 3249:What's the topic you're writing about? 3131:he was the school's first principal. — 2651:Help:Installing Japanese character sets 2645:, but it could just as easily point to 2643:Help:Installing Japanese character sets 2165:established), then we can just go with 1997:it shows up with surprising frequency. 3451:Ni no Kuni: Dominion of the Dark Djinn 2239: 2235: 1804:. Let's please not muddy the waters. 48:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3489:is an article from online version of 3473:is an article from online version of 7: 2160:I adamantly oppose using ALLCAPS or 1674:"Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind" 3369:Little Angels International School 3169:リオ日本人学校＝総領事館内で新学期スタート＝「水害にめげず頑張ろう」 1929:Perhaps even a dedicated template? 1680:Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind 28: 1944:It appears the documentation for 3729:RfD notification: New army sword 2329:the endless talkpage bickering. 33: 18:Knowledge talk:WikiProject Japan 3614:Japan WikiProject input request 3146:I see. Thank you for checking! 3084:Questions about a Japanese book 2985:I am preparing my own proposal 1678:The usage and primary topic of 3447:Ni no Kuni: Daibouken Monsters 1989:You'd be surprised how common 1: 3657:From Shogun to Prime Minister 3325:Thank you so much! I really, 3018: 2911: 2799: 2559: 2519: 2463: 2389: 2243: 2132:Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) 2242:to obviate the issue there. 1303:Districts and municipalities 3756:19:31, 28 August 2015 (UTC) 3721:02:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC) 3703:15:10, 20 August 2015 (UTC) 3683:01:10, 20 August 2015 (UTC) 3652:16:34, 22 August 2015 (UTC) 3606:18:13, 20 August 2015 (UTC) 3587:14:52, 20 August 2015 (UTC) 3559:11:43, 20 August 2015 (UTC) 3524:10:22, 17 August 2015 (UTC) 3508:22:52, 16 August 2015 (UTC) 3465:10:33, 16 August 2015 (UTC) 3443:Ni no Kuni: Hotroit Stories 3420:21:52, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 3406:18:15, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 3382:12:33, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 3358:19:53, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 3343:16:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 3317:16:34, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 3306:principal of the school. — 3301:16:30, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 3264:16:23, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 3237:15:20, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 3156:14:28, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 3142:12:58, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 3122:12:31, 12 August 2015 (UTC) 2944:John Power wrote an article 2358:WP:Specialist style fallacy 3771: 3078:03:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC) 1786:when mentioned in others. 1696:04:02, 6 August 2015 (UTC) 1391:Science & technology ( 1770:No—Britannica uses both: 1682:is under discussion, see 3746:would be appreciated. -- 3707:Thanks for your comment 3285:Critérios de notoriedade 3279:. One Portuguese editor 3090:Istanbul Japanese School 3060:18:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC) 3039:13:28, 18 May 2015 (UTC) 3013:03:18, 17 May 2015 (UTC) 2999:03:05, 17 May 2015 (UTC) 2963:12:10, 23 May 2015 (UTC) 2932:16:50, 22 May 2015 (UTC) 2850:06:09, 19 May 2015 (UTC) 2835:18:00, 19 May 2015 (UTC) 2820:13:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC) 2773:00:29, 16 May 2015 (UTC) 2739:23:04, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2725:22:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2695:20:31, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2679:19:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2625:17:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2610:17:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2580:13:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC) 2540:13:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC) 2514:10:13, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2500:08:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2484:16:50, 22 May 2015 (UTC) 2446:05:56, 19 May 2015 (UTC) 2410:13:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC) 2367:that erstwhile guideline 2339:05:14, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2303:17:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2264:01:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2216:12:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC) 2196:03:22, 14 May 2015 (UTC) 2154:02:57, 13 May 2015 (UTC) 2140:02:21, 13 May 2015 (UTC) 2117:03:13, 17 May 2015 (UTC) 2096:02:04, 17 May 2015 (UTC) 2076:In what circumstance is 2072:22:53, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 2038:09:23, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 2007:22:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1983:08:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1958:07:14, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1940:07:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1906:06:31, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1885:08:08, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1871:06:41, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1828:06:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1814:05:44, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1796:05:41, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1782:in his own article, but 1766:05:18, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1751:03:51, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1731:02:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC) 1717:to be a sloppy mistake. 1384:Royalty & nobility ( 1247:Task force talk/archives 3289:pt:Wikipédia:Relevância 3253:, or something else? — 2556:fallacy of equivocation 1948:even talks about this. 1711:Kanae Yamamoto (artist) 3665:, which purports that 2435:even on the same page. 68: 3571:It looks fine to me. 2942:of each publication. 2377:argumentum ad nauseam 1507:Related talk/archives 67: 46:of past discussions. 3367:An editor stated at 3215:The two newspapers ( 3127:Nope - according to 2200:I agree completely. 1639:Search the archives: 3661:I have come across 1494:Jun 2007 – Sep 2008 77:& archives for 3709:Akiyama(tentative) 3695:Akiyama(tentative) 3671:Tokugawa Yoshinobu 3630:User:Beyond My Ken 3626:User:Sturmgewehr88 3500:Akiyama(tentative) 3331:I notified Zoldyck 3199:リオ・デ・ジャネイロ日本人学校前校長 2430:I took no position 2086:not appropriate? - 1946:Template:Smallcaps 1432:= joint task force 1322:Military history ( 69: 3649: 3556: 3218:Sao Paulo Shimbun 3191:São Paulo Shimbun 3177:. April 15, 2010. 2771: 2743:I understood the 2723: 2677: 2608: 2552: 2301: 2232:WP:LOCALCONSENSUS 2230:; i.e., that's a 2194: 1991:"Ieyasu Tokugawa" 1859:Hiroyasu Shimizu? 1844:Hiroshi Nakajima? 1838: 1671: 1670: 1433: 58: 57: 52:current talk page 3762: 3737: 3663:this recent edit 3642: 3578: 3577: 3570: 3549: 3521: 3462: 3401: 3400:Mr. Stradivarius 3312: 3311:Mr. Stradivarius 3274: 3271:Mr. Stradivarius 3259: 3258:Mr. Stradivarius 3248: 3137: 3136:Mr. Stradivarius 3037: 2930: 2818: 2768: 2762:Talk to Nihonjoe 2758: 2754: 2751: 2720: 2714:Talk to Nihonjoe 2710: 2706: 2703: 2674: 2668:Talk to Nihonjoe 2664: 2660: 2657: 2639: 2633: 2605: 2599:Talk to Nihonjoe 2595: 2591: 2588: 2578: 2554:essentially the 2546: 2538: 2482: 2456: 2420: 2408: 2315: 2298: 2292:Talk to Nihonjoe 2288: 2284: 2281: 2262: 2241: 2237: 2207: 2206: 2191: 2185:Talk to Nihonjoe 2181: 2177: 2174: 2163: 2106: 2085: 2079: 2061: 2055: 2051: 2045: 2027: 2021: 1995:even in an Ngram 1926: 1922: 1856:Hideko Takamine? 1847:Haruki Murakami? 1832: 1667: 1649: 1442:Old notice board 1428: 1312:Gaijin tarento ( 60: 59: 37: 36: 30: 3770: 3769: 3765: 3764: 3763: 3761: 3760: 3759: 3733: 3731: 3659: 3616: 3575: 3574: 3564: 3534: 3514: 3455: 3433: 3399: 3365: 3329:appreciate it! 3310: 3268: 3257: 3242: 3135: 3086: 3035: 2991:Fernando Danger 2928: 2864:Hajime Sorayama 2816: 2766: 2756: 2749: 2718: 2708: 2701: 2672: 2662: 2655: 2637: 2631: 2603: 2593: 2586: 2576: 2536: 2480: 2450: 2414: 2406: 2309: 2296: 2286: 2279: 2260: 2204: 2203: 2189: 2179: 2172: 2161: 2100: 2083: 2077: 2059: 2053: 2049: 2043: 2025: 2019: 1924: 1916: 1877:Fernando Danger 1841:Hideyo Noguchi? 1820:Fernando Danger 1758:Fernando Danger 1703: 1676: 1663: 1650: 1645: 1633: 1632: 1631: 1514:Anime and manga 1508: 1500: 1499: 1498: 1443: 1435: 1434: 1426: 1248: 1240: 1239: 1238: 88: 34: 26: 25: 24: 12: 11: 5: 3768: 3766: 3740:Neo army sword 3735:New army sword 3730: 3727: 3726: 3725: 3724: 3723: 3658: 3655: 3615: 3612: 3611: 3610: 3609: 3608: 3594: 3593: 3533: 3530: 3529: 3528: 3527: 3526: 3441:mobile games ( 3432: 3426: 3425: 3424: 3423: 3422: 3364: 3361: 3346: 3345: 3323: 3322: 3321: 3320: 3319: 3224:Nikkey Shimbun 3213: 3212: 3195: 3178: 3174:Nikkey Shimbun 3161: 3160: 3159: 3158: 3109: 3108: 3102:See profile at 3085: 3082: 3081: 3080: 3065: 3064: 3063: 3062: 3044: 3043: 3042: 3041: 3033: 3015: 2982: 2981: 2980: 2979: 2978: 2977: 2976: 2975: 2974: 2973: 2972: 2971: 2970: 2969: 2968: 2967: 2966: 2965: 2926: 2904: 2888: 2840:GIVEN-FAMILY. 2822: 2814: 2785: 2784: 2783: 2782: 2781: 2780: 2779: 2778: 2777: 2776: 2775: 2582: 2574: 2544: 2543: 2542: 2534: 2488: 2487: 2486: 2478: 2448: 2404: 2355: 2307: 2306: 2305: 2258: 2220: 2219: 2218: 2158: 2157: 2156: 2127: 2126: 2125: 2124: 2123: 2122: 2121: 2120: 2119: 2011: 2010: 2009: 1969: 1968: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1964: 1963: 1962: 1961: 1960: 1893: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1888: 1887: 1850:Ichiro Suzuki? 1798: 1702: 1699: 1675: 1672: 1669: 1668: 1652: 1651: 1643: 1641: 1635: 1634: 1630: 1629: 1595: 1585: 1575: 1557: 1531: 1524:Hello! 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