3153:(Comment) I wonder what these are for? I am all in favour of using IPA to represent pronunciation, where it helps: for example in languages with no phonetic representation (French, Hungarian,...), or regional variations in English pronunciation. But for Japanese, you have to be either a real real phonetics expert for the IPA to be more helpful than Hepburn romanisation, or a Japanese speaker who can work it out backwards. In a dictionary, this would be a good addition for completeness' sake, but I wonder how it helps in WP? In particular a number of these expressions are katakana attempts at representing English words, and I think there will be huge variation in individual speakers' pronunciations. A bit like asking for a narrow IPA representation of the English (as in England) pronunciation of "Français" or "merci beaucoup". Further, if you are really describing the word in general, the representation should be phonemic, not phonetic, because of free variation. I recall an incident in Japanese evening classes in London, decades ago: this elderly gentleman was going to two different teachers, and couldn't understand variation in the pronunciation of です. "Why", he asked, "does the other teacher say /desu/ and you say /des/. Which is correct?" And Taya-san replied "Yes, です is correct." She could not hear the phonetic difference, and could not understand the question.
3259:(Response to Prosperity) You say, "adding IPA to supplement Hepburn readings", but I cannot imagine quite who this would help, in general. Of course "IPA is different from Hepburn", but (except for showing pitch accent) it is almost precisely isomorphic. You could possibly produce a slightly more accurate version of your list above by a series of regexp replacements on the Hepburn -- for example, you would notice 'bokutohana', where you forgot to replace the 'u' by the "w-thingy". Then about these pseudo-English titles: well, I really did mean "merci beaucoup", and not assimilated loanwords like "pastiche", which really do have their own pronunciations in Englishes. Precisely because speakers are trying to pronounce a foreign language, their pronunciation is simply too variable for IPA to help. For example, in ゴー・トゥ・ザ・フューチャー the second word is an attempt to reproduce English "to", so should probably be
3299:? It was up for speedy deletion but there was just enough of an assertion of notability to where he could pass speedy criteria. There isn't much coverage for him at all in English and none of it can be used to establish notability on here since it's mostly e-commerce sites and various forum mentions. Since he's from Hong Kong and is primarily active in China and Japanese, I figured that coverage would likely be in something other than English. I also posted at WP:CHINA asking for help finding sources. (so this is cross pasted from there) I tried searching using the characters in the article, but I couldn't find much since I'm not entirely sure if it's correct and also because the search predominantly brings up a psychologist by the same name. Refining it would require more than just a cut/paste and Google Translate.
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3171:", even though it is not presented in katakana would never be pronounced in a sentence as its English reading, /swi:t 'nainti:n blu:z/, as Chinese speakers might, and instead would say /sɯi:to nainti:n buɺu:su/. Adding in a Japanese IPA pronunciation would be appropriate for "Sweet 19 Blues", however adding katakana or a romaji reading would not, as the original script was not in this style. For the titles in Japanese, there's enough difference between Hepburn romaji and phonemic IPA that having both systems there could only benefit readers. I know personally that phonemic IPA had helped me with Korean words, where official romanisation has not.
3267:, (no 's' and no long vowel mark?). But individual speakers' abilities vary enormously, and some will no doubt approach a rounded (or "uncompressed"?) 'u' vowel. Again, final consonants ('t' in particular) are variously represented: ナイト and サンセット in your examples, one with a doubled "tto" the other just "to". I think that different speakers will make different degrees of proximity to a simple final 't'. I just don't see that there is a clearly identifiable pronunciation to be represented. Perhaps it would be best if you pick one or two actual examples where you think IPA would really help, and we can discuss them.
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article (although granted it may help by providing some search terms). If that editor can't find
English sources and relies upon a machine translation of the Japanese article, they will still not be in a position to expand the English article because the editor will not have the ability to read the Japanese sources (if the article is sourced, which most are not). So in practice, the Japanese article will only be useful to an editor with the ability to read Japanese who can then use the article as a starting point to find their own sources, since most of the contents will be unsourced.
1790:, I have many sources for various aspects of disability but for the demographics of disability I'm struggling to find authoritative statistics from later than 1998 - which predates many legislative and policy changes about disability related issues. I'd appreciate it if someone here might be able to find more recent population statistics about disability - I am unfortunately limited to searching only English sources. Thanks
2296:)? There is at least one election coming up this year which may generate some interest in readers. I would be happy to work on the Kansai portal but, to be honest, what does it actually involve? I looked at the Osaka one, which appears to have been edited only 20 times in the last decade. Are they supposed to be updated more often? I know this is not the place to be asking such basic questions.
1687:: there is a template at the top that says, "This article may be expanded with text translated from the corresponding article in Japanese." Well, in a sense, one cannot argue with this. But it is true of every article on a Japanese topic, that the ja:WP article is a good place to look (assuming you can read Japanese) for more information; does this template really serve a useful purpose?
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The problem I have with IPA is that 99% of
English-speakers find it completely useless. It's really only taught in linguistics classes, so linguists know it, but the rest of every doesn't use it at all. I've taken a class where we learned it (a linguistics class, in fact), but I never used it outside
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As I see it, asking this question is less asking
English people how they pronounce "merci beaucoup", but more asking them how they'd pronounce "pastiche" or "Mexico", as these are words that are assimilated into the general vocabulary of English. The online accent dictionaries for Japanese even point
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The main portal page, once created, is generally not edited very often. It involves collecting a list of articles and quality images which would fit under the topic, and then sorting them into various categories (biographies, and so on). Gathering dates is good so events that happened on a particular
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I see a distinct lack of non-popular culture portals. What suggestions do you all have for possible new portals? There should be a fair number of articles for the portal so it will have a decent amount of content, so a broader topic is good. I know how to make portals (I've made three), so that won't
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Finally, I didn't explain my story very carefully: the point is that voiced and voiceless final 'u' vowels are largely in free variation, and the teacher (Taya-san she was always called) simply could not hear what the problem is. In your list you have shown some with devoicing marks, others without,
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I would take issue with this, slightly: "99% of
American speakers", possibly. But for European languages, IPA is the only show in town, and I think general awareness of IPA is much higher than you suggest. The problem is that whereas for French, German, etc, most of the vowels in particular are easy
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For your story, just because a native speaker can't actively describe the difference between two sounds (I know I'm a little deaf on /j/ vs. /ʎ/), doesn't mean a mispronunciation would cause problems to listeners. I remember one time when my teacher asked what my classmate's thesis topic was on, she
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If we already have an
English stub article, then an editor with no Japanese-language ability can read in English what the basic topic of the article is. From that starting point, if there are English sources for the topic, then they can expand the article without needing to look at the Japanese wiki
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I see sources that give the pronunciation of 「遠浦帰帆」 as both おんぽきはん、えんぽきはん、and ゑんぽきはん. The first seems most common in a plain Google search, but doesn't appear at all in a Google Books search. ja-wp gives おんぽきはん, and I suspect that's why it is so common in search results, but I don't want to give
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idea. If you are relying on the semi-gibberish MT produces from
Japanese, you are simply not in a position to help. This at least should be instantly deleted. Perhaps the template is a generic one: if you are looking at du:WP, the output of MT may even be useful, since Dutch grammar is a shadow of
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and so forth. Part of this is sourced to a rambling personal essay in a fansite, part to an unpublished MA thesis -- and nothing that I bothered to look at that was much better. And it's about fandom, or labels for the fandom, or stigmatization via labels for the fandom. All pretty bad. My first
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to specific pitch accents on different loan words in standard accents, so I don't know if it's appropriate to think of an entire vocabulary set of a language in terms of its source language, because of how wide-spread these differently pronounced versions of the same words are.
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I tried to work on the Ainu portal, but was not very successful, though I'm willing to try again. I would support focusing on
History and Politics first (in that order). Next would be Prefectures, and then Cuisine. Personally, I would support having an Arts of Japan portal.
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As you said, phonetic transcriptions, as opposed to phonemic, would be problematic as we'd get into dialectic and idiolectic issues, but we already have a set of broad IPA phonemes that represent
Japanese words differently to Hepburn, otherwise why would
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On the French
Knowledge, we decided to create portals for all the prefectures (it took a bit less than a month for 2 contributors to do it), but also for the main cities (Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka ; Yokohama and Nagoya were also considered). We also also have
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to remember variants on a-e-i-o-u-(y), Japanese in IPA is full of unfamiliar things like ɯ and devoicing marks. But my basic point was that
Hepburn is a systematic, phonemic representation, which is adequate for just about all encyclopedic purposes.
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I'm sorry I missed the ping. So if it is done properly in the first place it doesn't need to be looked at often. Sounds like something to do as a long-term project and tinker with in draft space before finally making it live.
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inclination is to delete this stuff; but I have a hunch that there's meat for a sociological study here, and that better material is likely to exist. Is there a sociologist in the house? --
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day or in a particular month can be put into a set of calendar pages. It takes a fair bit of time to build one, but they can be built so they don't require a lot of maintenance. ···
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To start, I'd like to focus on one that has some structure; #1 and #12 seem like good portals to focus on. Other ones I'm interested in, in order are: #10, #2, #8, and #3.
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3327:" has a section on non-Japanese people of the present day who are interested in, or identify themselves as interested in, or who are identified as others as interested in,
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replied tabunka. She'd meant 多文化 (multiculturalism), but my teacher heard 多分か… (umm maybe...). The difference between these two could be seen in IPA, but not in Hepburn. --
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may be helpful in determining which portal(s) to do first. Either one which matches the most popular pages, or one which might increase the popularity of other pages. ···
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Just reminding people to participate. Even if you're not able to help with the building of the portal, it will be good to know what you would like to see worked on. ···
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As someone who deals with product titles, I've been wondering if adding IPA to supplement Hepburn readings might greatly benefit article titles. A song title like "
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that based on my suspicions. Is there anyone who knows (or can find out) for sure what pronunciation (romanization) is correct (or at least most appropriate)?
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So, of the portals listed below, which one should we do first? This is a vote, so feel free to list them in order of preference (just use the number for each).
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You can see it at the top left. The archive sections are now collapsible and the template is much smaller. Please let me know if you have any questions. ···
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Feel free to move it to the talk page for now so people can work on it until it's ready to be included. Those sources are not reliable in the least. ···
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If the goal is to just get the article expanded (without caring about verifying the details), then and only then is a machine translation useful.
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Then I view the "translation instructions", which begin: "Google's machine translation is a useful starting point for translations." This is a
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3451:, but the hits include the Kyoto National Museum and other academic sources. Onpo kihan only comes up with websites by individuals, etc.
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I'm going to nominate this for deletion but I'd like for this article to have a fighting chance if there are other sources out there.
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be popular? But this is just a very tentative su-guess-tion. (I don't live in Kansai, which I visit rarely, though enjoyably.) --
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3124:(is this a different allophone to the r in 踊り子 for a standard accent?, it seems to change depending on its position in a word.)
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Sorry that I let this go-- I was also away this weekend. Will check on this after taking care of some RfC-related requests.
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portals here. The first is really complicated, with a lot of randomized content, and the second is far less complicated. ···
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MT can under certain circumstances be a useful tool, but we should never encourage people to use it to translate articles.
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I agree with Imaginatorium from the view point of being able to verify information gained from the machine translation.
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English grammar, and a shadow of a shadow may be a useful start, but this is simply not true for unrelated languages.
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I would go with "enpo kihan" based on the quality of the sources. えんぽきはん comes up not only with more hits
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I would change it to "...can be a useful starting point..." because it can be, on occasion. ···
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Just dropping in to say I'll weigh on this later tonight, thanks for getting this together.
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Thanks, but unfortunately I can't read Japanese, that's why I'm asking for assistance here.
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I'll look at it and see what I can do when I have some time. Keep buggin me about it. ···
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is a little unclear on r and pitch tones, so I figured I should get a second opinion.
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Could someone more familiar with Japanese IPA double-check my transliterations? the
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https://ja.wikipedia.org/%E5%A4%A7%E8%A5%BF%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%82%AA%E3%83%B3
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Like so many ja:WP articles, it's unsourced. What purpose would it serve? --
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There are a lot of WWII articles in the top 200 of that list, so perhaps
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Looks like these portals need work and have only been partially created:
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I agree that History or Politics would probably be best to start with.--
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be a problem. I can show you how to do it, if you want help, too. ···
2369:. And yes, properly built, they don't require a lot of maintenance.
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2796:... ? Note that I'm not actually volunteering to do any of these.
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I could see regional portals being useful: Kansai, Tohoku, etc. ···
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It really depends on how the portal is built. I made the
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These are all of the Japan-related portals on Knowledge:
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Right. I think I'll change it on the ja-wp page, too.
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IPA transliterations for a standard Japanese dialect
3295:Can anyone help find sources for the article for
3271:but I wonder if this can really be supported?
2107:To get things started, I've seen thinks like
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2224:Alas non-popular culture ... isn't popular.
3202:that class so it's long forgotten now. ···
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2483:Portal:History of Japan, 1868–1945
2190:So, in addition to those four. ···
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3319:Sociology of current Japanophilia
2351:a portal for the History of Japan
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18:Knowledge talk:WikiProject Japan
2669:Your thoughts? Anyone else? ···
2115:for other countries. Perhaps a
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3387:Can we get a translation of
2755:Portal:Japan in World War II
2488:Portal:Japan in World War II
2121:Portal:Japan in World War II
1273:Districts and municipalities
2786:Portal: Literature of Japan
2782:Portal:Visual arts of Japan
2512:Portal:Prefectures of Japan
2117:Portal:Prefectures of Japan
1874:Quick! Learn the language!
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2540:Let's figure this out! ···
2135:? Just a few thoughts. ···
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2517:Portal:Prehistory of Asia
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1912:Thanks for nothing! Bye.
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1644:New talk archive template
2506:Portal:Politics in Japan
2502:Portal:Japanese Politics
2498:Portal:Politics of Japan
2294:Portal:Politics of Japan
2290:Portal:Japanese Politics
1354:Royalty & nobility (
1217:Task force talk/archives
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3113:(i.e. リミックス plus アクション)
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2794:Portal:Theatre of Japan
2478:Portal:History of Japan
2463:Portal:Cuisine of Japan
2129:Portal:Cuisine of Japan
2125:Portal:History of Japan
1782:Disability demographics
2535:Portal:Trains in Japan
2133:Portal:Trains in Japan
1679:Translation from ja:WP
38:
3291:Help finding sources?
3181:Help:IPA for Japanese
2790:Portal:Music of Japan
2473:Portal:Flora of Japan
2468:Portal:Fauna of Japan
2113:Portal:Flora of Japan
2109:Portal:Fauna of Japan
1966:Japan-related portals
1477:Related talk/archives
37:
2778:Portal:Arts of Japan
1609:Search the archives:
2834:WP:IPA for Japanese
2531:(partially created)
2525:(partially created)
2459:(partially created)
2385:speculative fiction
2015:The Legend of Zelda
1464:Jun 2007 – Sep 2008
47:& archives for
3024:バッハの旋律を夜に聴いたせいです。
2992:ナイト・フィッシング・イズ・グッド
2367:can be found there
2055:Sonic the Hedgehog
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3473:
3467:Curly Turkey
3448:than おんぽきはん
3435:
3429:Curly Turkey
3425:
3386:
3332:
3328:
3322:
3307:
3301:
3294:
3189:Prosperosity
3140:Prosperosity
3137:
2931:さよならはエモーション
2831:
2815:
2804:
2798:Curly Turkey
2742:
2657:Athomeinkobe
2580:
2539:
2451:
2313:Athomeinkobe
2074:
1969:
1785:
1769:
1763:Curly Turkey
1691:
1689:
1682:
1647:
1608:
1459:Jan–Jun 2007
1454:Jun–Dec 2006
1449:Feb–May 2006
1444:Jan–Feb 2006
1439:Nov–Dec 2005
1434:Jul–Oct 2005
1429:Apr–Jun 2005
1424:Jan–Mar 2005
1399:
1388:
1375:
1289:
1269:
1256:
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1223:
1158:
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1028:
963:
898:
833:
768:
718:
703:
638:
573:
508:
443:
378:
313:
248:
183:
118:
63:
57:Project talk
3391:? Thanks!--
3325:Japanophile
3304:Tokyogirl79
3003:ネイティブ・ダンサー
2816:I, JethroBT
2743:I, JethroBT
2581:I, JethroBT
2529:Portal:Sony
2457:Portal:Ainu
2179:Portal:Ainu
2169:Portal:Sony
1995:Dragon Ball
1990:Asian Games
1685:Nihon Shoki
1548:Square Enix
1419:All of 2004
1314:Mythology (
3138:Thanks! --
2759:AtHomeIn神戸
2665:I JethroBT
2638:Cckerberos
2424:AtHomeIn神戸
2298:AtHomeIn神戸
2288:How about
1749:AtHomeIn神戸
1692:horrendous
1340:Politics (
3453:Michitaro
3055:三日月サンセット
3034:ホーリー・ダンス
2982:ドキュメンタリー
2840:アイデンティティ
2701:this page
2624:Michitaro
2361:also has
1558:Tokusatsu
1392:Transwiki
3474:¡gobble!
3436:¡gobble!
3105:リミックション
2921:サカナクション
2861:歩くアラウンド
2805:¡gobble!
2736:Nihonjoe
2574:Nihonjoe
2127:. Maybe
2020:Nintendo
1870:Dodger67
1849:Nihonjoe
1808:Dodger67
1770:¡gobble!
1368:Shinto (
1333:Owarai (
1227:Baseball
49:WP Japan
20: |
3309:(。◕‿◕。)
3075:目が明く藍色
3065:ミュージック
2901:グッドバイ (
2881:エンドレス (
2663:, and
2035:Pokémon
2025:Origami
1504:Pokémon
1307:Music (
22:Archive
3183:exist?
3095:夜の踊り子
2699:Also,
2353:, and
2229:Might
2045:Shinto
2010:Karate
1814:ja:障害者
1568:Trains
1247:Cinema
3408:Hoary
3338:Hoary
3333:anime
3329:manga
3116:ルーキー
3085:ユリイカ
2972:千と零 (
2942:サンプル
2653:Hoary
2252:Hoary
2235:Hoary
2070:Tokyo
2030:Osaka
1975:AKB48
1816:. ···
1562:index
1552:index
1524:PAC 2
1508:index
1488:index
1379:Tokyo
16:<
3457:talk
3422:遠浦帰帆
3412:talk
3397:talk
3342:talk
3277:talk
3239:talk
3193:talk
3159:talk
3144:talk
3127:ワード
3045:僕と花
3013:蓮の花
2962:新宝島
2891:汽空域
2763:talk
2642:talk
2628:talk
2500:(or
2448:Poll
2428:talk
2387:and
2375:talk
2302:talk
2239:talk
2040:Sega
1918:talk
1859:talk
1796:talk
1753:talk
1701:talk
1530:Sumo
1260:CJKV
1159:2023
1094:2022
1029:2021
964:2020
899:2019
834:2018
769:2017
704:2016
639:2015
574:2014
509:2013
444:2012
379:2011
314:2010
249:2009
184:2008
119:2007
64:2006
45:Talk
3354:日本穣
3205:日本穣
2952:新白
2871:祈り
2851:青い
2706:日本穣
2672:日本穣
2594:日本穣
2543:日本穣
2504:or
2394:日本穣
2321:日本穣
2259:日本穣
2193:日本穣
2138:日本穣
2131:or
2123:or
2119:or
2111:or
2079:日本穣
2050:SNK
1929:日本穣
1885:日本穣
1882:···
1819:日本穣
1713:日本穣
1651:日本穣
1522:),
1512:PAC
3470:🍁
3459:)
3432:🍁
3414:)
3399:)
3368:·
3364:·
3361:投稿
3357:·
3344:)
3331:,
3279:)
3241:)
3219:·
3215:·
3212:投稿
3208:·
3195:)
3161:)
3146:)
2801:🍁
2792:,
2788:,
2784:,
2765:)
2720:·
2716:·
2713:投稿
2709:·
2686:·
2682:·
2679:投稿
2675:·
2659:,
2655:,
2644:)
2630:)
2608:·
2604:·
2601:投稿
2597:·
2557:·
2553:·
2550:投稿
2546:·
2430:)
2408:·
2404:·
2401:投稿
2397:·
2377:)
2357:.
2335:·
2331:·
2328:投稿
2324:·
2304:)
2273:·
2269:·
2266:投稿
2262:·
2241:)
2207:·
2203:·
2200:投稿
2196:·
2152:·
2148:·
2145:投稿
2141:·
2093:·
2089:·
2086:投稿
2082:·
1943:·
1939:·
1936:投稿
1932:·
1920:)
1899:·
1895:·
1892:投稿
1888:·
1861:)
1833:·
1829:·
1826:投稿
1822:·
1798:)
1766:🍁
1755:)
1727:·
1723:·
1720:投稿
1716:·
1703:)
1665:·
1661:·
1658:投稿
1654:·
1594:,
1590:,
1586:,
1582:,
1578:,
1574:,
1540:,
1536:,
1518:,
1510:,
1326:,
1322:,
1318:,
1300:,
1296:,
1154:12
1149:11
1144:10
1089:12
1084:11
1079:10
1024:12
1019:11
1014:10
959:12
954:11
949:10
894:12
889:11
884:10
829:12
824:11
819:10
764:12
759:11
754:10
699:12
694:11
689:10
634:12
629:11
624:10
569:12
564:11
559:10
504:12
499:11
494:10
439:12
434:11
429:10
374:12
369:11
364:10
309:12
304:11
299:10
244:12
239:11
234:10
179:12
174:11
169:10
114:12
109:11
104:10
3455:(
3410:(
3395:(
3374:!
3340:(
3275:(
3237:(
3225:!
3191:(
3157:(
3142:(
3042:)
3021:)
3000:)
2939:)
2848:)
2761:(
2738::
2734:@
2726:!
2692:!
2667::
2651:@
2640:(
2626:(
2614:!
2576::
2572:@
2563:!
2508:)
2426:(
2414:!
2373:(
2341:!
2315::
2311:@
2300:(
2292:(
2279:!
2254::
2250:@
2237:(
2213:!
2158:!
2099:!
1949:!
1916:(
1905:!
1872::
1868:@
1857:(
1851::
1847:@
1839:!
1810::
1806:@
1794:(
1751:(
1733:!
1699:(
1671:!
1635:E
1632:·
1630:T
1628:·
1626:V
1598:)
1596:7
1592:6
1588:5
1584:4
1580:3
1576:2
1572:1
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69:3
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