1849:•" Brezhnev still believed he could resuscitate detente in Europe and abhorred the prospect of invasion of Poland. In addition, he and other Soviet leaders were deterred by the economic dimensions of the Polish crisis. Fighting with the Poles would be disastrous enough, but equally calamitous would be the economic costs of invasion and occupation. Chernyaev commented in his journal in August 1981:'Brezhnev's approach is the only wise approach. We simply cannot afford to keep Poland as our economic dependent.' Indeed, the Kremlin did not have the surplus resources to pay for its rapidly expanding commitments. By the 1980s, the Soviet Union assisted or maintained sixty-nine Soviet satellites and clients around the world. Beginning in the second half of the 1960s, over a quarter of the Soviet GDP was spent every year on financing the military buildup. The regime routinely filled holes in the budget by borrowing from people's savings, selling vodka, and secretly amassing a budget deficit. Another crucial source of revenue was the export of oil and gas: from 1971 to 1980, the Soviet Union increased its oil and gas production sevenfold and eightfold, respectively, a rate matched by the ever-increasing Soviet deliveries of heavily subsidized oil and gas to Warsaw Pact countries. After 1974, when world prices of oil quadrupled, Moscow was forced to double the price of Soviet oil delivered to its Warsaw Pact allies, compensating them through ten-year, low-interest loans. Soviet economic interests demanded reductions of such generous aid to Central European regimes, but the interests of the 'socialist empire' and bloc commitments dictated instead further increases in this aid."
1852:•"Russians now call the Brezhnev years 'the period of stagnation.' The description is misleading. Brezhnev did a lot worse than simply leave the economy in neutral. He saw salvation in raw military force. So Brezhnev conducted the biggest arms buildup in the history of the world. Under him, the U.S.S.R. grew from a junior member of the nuclear club, forced into a shameful backdown in the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, to the world's most heavily armed superpower, at parity with or ahead of the United States in key nuclear and conventional weapons. The cost to Moscow was a military procurement program spiraling crazily out of control. Some 30 percent of GNP went to defense, robbing funds that should have gone into farms and consumer goods, roads, housing, schools, and health care to name but a few needy areas. In the end, he did more damage to the Soviet system than the dissidents he jailed. Workers outside the privileged defense sector were underpaid, with little prospect of improved living standards in their lifetimes. Not surprisingly, they underproduced. Absenteeism and alcohol ran rampant. Cynical Soviet workers soon coined this description of their bargain with the state: 'We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us.' It was a formula for disaster. Sure enough, Brezhnev's legacy was just that—a collapsing Third World economy, with nuclear missiles that no sane leader could fire"
1861:•"From the point of view of Communist rulers, the Brezhnev era was in many ways successful. This was the period when the USSR achieved a rough parity with the United States – by the early 1970s – as a military power, although the basis of its 'superpower' status depended very heavily on the disproportionately large resources it devoted to military expenditure. Although no economic superpower, the Soviet Union contained some of the world's richest mineral deposits. It was, however, a sign of the weakness of the economy that Soviet exports depended so heavily on the sale of natural resources, especially oil and gas. Yet what was termed the 'oil crisis' in Western Europe – the sharp rise in price of 1973 – turned out to be an energy bonanza for the Soviet Union. The Brezhnev leadership's ability to keep various elites content owed much to the sale at advantageous prices of its natural resources. Keeping them satisfied was, however, harder at the end of the Brezhnev era than earlier. The rate of economic growth was in long-term decline and in Brezhnev's last years had virtually ground to a halt."
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USSR. The average per Capita GDP growth was less than 1% during this period." Page 5: "By the 1970s Soviet leadership identified the problem already and tried to move to a regime of intensive accumulation, with minimization of the costs and increase of ‘efficiency’ (Hewett, 1988; CIA, 1986). But, the attempt to change the composition of the investment and to raise the productivity into improving the ‘efficiency’ failed. This failure was due to the inability to change the attitude toward retirement and replacement of the installed fixed capital, the difficulty in the incorporation of technological innovation in civilian industry, the militarization of the economy, the deterioration of the ‘discipline’ of Soviet workers and the high cost of the industrialization in
Siberia."
1858:•"...an inexorable decline set in, as the annual growth rate slipped to 3.7 percent between 1971 and 1975 and then to 2.7 percent between 1976 and 1980. Innovation lagged; much of the Soviet Union's equipment was obsolete. Also, the Soviet Union did not produce many of the finished industrial goods that in Japan, Western Europe, and the United States formed the basis for increased productivity and a far higher standard of living than Soviet citizens knew. Even when the Soviet planners committed additional resources to producing consumer goods, as in the Ninth Five-Year Plan covering 1971—1975, a variety of complications and the continued investment priority enjoyed by heavy industry and the military derailed their intentions."
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1855:•"Even official statistics accept that defense spending in the USSR rose 40 per cent between 1965 and 1970, and annual increases continued thereafter at rates which never fell below 2 per cent in real terms. As a percentage of GDP, military spending rose by approximately 3 percent over the period rising to at least 15 percent of GDP by the time of Brezhnev's death in 1982. Despite the constrains such levels of spending placed on the civilian economy, it appeared to be a price the Soviet leadership felt was worth paying."
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Poland and East
Germany realized that western Europe was booming rich and they were sinking economically dragged down by USSR stagnation. Academics blamed Brezhnev (and his two bedridden successors) for the failures. Academics desperately hoped that Gorbachev would save the USSR, somehow. So I would say that the Russian elite considered Brezhnev a failure in economic terms. I also visited Georgia (part of USSR) where the mood was even more pessimistic.
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Soviet technological gap with the West shows that
Brezhnev's policies were already having a detrimental impact on the country well before his death. Therefore, there should be at least some mention in the lede how Brezhnev's spending on the armed forces and support for military interventionism abroad negatively effected the Soviet economy during his lifetime.
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1522:— I agree with the comments already made in support of this position, but I will add that the inclusion of citations can be justified if the content is likely to be scrutinised by readers because it is controversial. I do not think this is the case here, however, as most of what is written in the lead could be perceived with the same level of caution.
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I spent time in USSR in 1980s as a visiting professor at Moscow State
University--the economic conditions were bad and getting worse --and the psychology that "we are soon catching up with the West" had collapsed as the professors I knew realized that that dream was dead. Likewise the satellites esp
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This Rfc comes to resolve an ongoing dispute over whether citations should be included in the lede to support the claim that "numerous observers argued the Soviet Union had surpassed the United States to become the world's strongest military power." Should citations be included in the lede to support
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might also be acceptable. The sentence as it currently reads is somewhat reductive even for the lead: it suggests that military spending and foreign interventionism was the sole or proximate cause of the alleged economic stagnation, when there were a number of causes. Also, since the USSR ceased to
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Here are some quotes: from the abstract: "After a long period of sustained fast growth of output, the USSR began experiencing in the Mid-1970s an economic stagnation." page 3: "From 1975 to 1984, Soviet economic growth slowed down markedly, leading to a period of relative economic stagnation in the
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Capitals00 is trying to argue an extremely pedantic phrasing. His point, if I might sum up, seems to be that a decline in growth to the point of stagnation (which is strongly supported by your sources), does not count as "badly straining" the Soviet economy because there is not outright economic
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Saying that
Brezhnev's military policies badly strained the economy does not require proof that the Soviet economy went into complete free-fall under his leadership. The fact that the the mid-to-late 1970s saw diminishing returns in Soviet economic growth as well as a significant widening of the
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I'm unsure on what exactly is being debated with regards to the status quo of the lead section. If anything I believe it is still weirdly sympathetic to
Brezhnev in a way not broadly supported by non-propagandist commentaries, but I have no specific suggestions for things to fix. If there is a
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that whole sentence "However, these endeavors, particularly the invasion of
Afghanistan in 1979, proved to be highly costly and badly strained the Soviet economy in later years following Brezhnev's death." It does not concern the actual biography of Brezhnev but apparent mishandling by his
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What part of the sources I cited gave you that conclusion? Did you utterly overlook (if not outright ignore) all references to how
Brezhnev's regime ran a budget deficit while depriving the consumer sector and other sectors of the economy of badly needed funds in order to fuel the Soviet
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ignoring changes occurring in
Western societies; increased authoritarianism in Soviet society; the invasion of Afghanistan; the bureaucracy's transformation into an undynamic gerontocracy; lack of economic reform; pervasive political corruption, and other structural problems within the
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The lede must be a summary of the article, and the article poorly addresses the issue. I am surprized why people are wasting time her instead of expanding the article to make this discussion moot. Therefore as of now the whole sentence must be deleted for now. -
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I recommend reading the scholarly studies. There is easy access to "Structural
Analysis of the Economic Decline and Collapse of the Soviet Union," a 2016 paper by Numa Mazat published in the Proceedings of the 43rd Brazilian Economics Meeting.
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and after his rule; an interpretation simply not supported by most historians on the subject. However, while I would prefer to have the lede rewritten to reflect this, I think just striking the sentence in question altogether is a reasonable
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because the lead does not need sources if its information has been properly sourced on the article body. I would also add that this particular information is accurately described and sourced on the article body. I don't see any issue here.
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In light of this information, shouldn't the lede's third paragraph reflect that "Brezhnev's preoccupation with strengthening the armed forces as well as supporting Moscow's allies abroad badly strained the Soviet economy
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2481:" should be removed. Brezhnev's policies during his tenure cratered Soviet economic growth and drove the USSR into a period of stagnation. That is undisputed, and it is sufficient to leave it at that in the lede.
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with the West (in contrast to his predecessors and current Putin's sabre-rattling). It's probably one of the reasons some favor the description of civilian stagnation rather than Napoleonic military initiatives.
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insists on having the lede's third paragraph reflect that the Soviet Union's high military spending under Brezhnev did not strain the Soviet economy until after Brezhnev's death. However, in the section entitled
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leaving the phrase uncited is a valid option, and I don't see why this phrase has been singled out. There are many claims that are made in Wikivoice which I feel would be far better candidates for citations.
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that seems designed to play up Brezhnev's successes as a statesman while playing down his failures and even his crimes. For this reason,I have added the NPOV tag. Does anybody have any opposition to this?
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Your sources agree that the growth of the USSR economy slowed during the last years of Brezhnev and the economic decline started only years after this death. This confirms that the lead is not inaccurate.
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specific paragraph or phrase under contention up for change I'm happy to 3rd-opinion on it. If the question is whether the "strained" language should be changed to something more neutral, I'm opposed.
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in Poland for fear of the costs. Even if such actions did not cause the Soviet economy to collapse immediately, they nonetheless served to undermine its performance throughout Brezhnev's leadership.
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has to do with the appropriateness of word "strain"). It is correct and appropriate to describe an economy driven from growth into stagnation as "strained", or with similar negative verbiage.
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the United States forced the Soviet Union into a competition, which exhausted their economic capacity". Feel free to add my find to the article (or I shall do this later myself).... but...:
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1804:" the economic growth slowed from 1975 - 1984 but there was still some increase. This is obviously not the same as the economic downfall that started years after the death of Brezhnev.
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I agree with the editors above that the sentence as a whole is problematic because it reflects the performance of his successors, thus it is not relevant for the lead.
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military-industrial complex? According to Zubok, the Soviet budget was so short on cash in the early 1980s that Moscow was reluctant to militarily intervene against
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A dispute has arisen over whether the final sentence of the lede's third paragraph should reflect that Brezhnev's policies badly strained the Soviet economy
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1269:. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them.
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Brezhnev's military policies badly strained the economy does not require proof that the Soviet economy went into complete free-fall under his leadership
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I don't have enough expertise on this, but from what I read it looks like Brezhnev's military buildup was to a certain extent offset by his policy of
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is a correct statement easily sourced. By the way, the article must be expanded wit a section about "supporting Moscow's allies abroad"
2134:. For purposes of this discussion, how would you characterize the effect of Brezhnev's policies on the Soviet economy during his lifetime?
2401:, because the CIA says so: read the part starting with "CIA reported that...". . Of course, much is to be added on the issue, E.g., from
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I also agree with removing that sentence from the lead paragraph. It would be more appropriate under a section discussing his policies.
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stagnation of the Soviet economy was fueled even further by the Soviet Union's ever-widening technological gap with the West.
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There is no reason to relate these things with the outright economic decline that started only after the death of Brezhnev.
1440:) Per exactly what has been said above. The lead does not require citations which are provided in the body of the article.
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exist roughly a decade after Brezhnev died, it's a bit of an odd fit to say that his policies strained the Soviet economy "
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began to decline at least in part due to the regime's sustained prioritization of heavy industry and military spending
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It seems we have yet to obtain a decisive consensus in favor of either position. Do you have any objection to an Rfc?
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Here are some sources corroborating the detrimental impact Brezhnev's military policies had on the Soviet economy.
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I almost interjected in the above section with exactly the same thing. They are allowed, but not preferred.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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However such a conclusion is not justified either in colloquial language or by any of the random
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Bowker, Mike (2002). "Brezhnev and Superpower Relations". In Edwin, Bacon; Sandle, Mark (eds.).
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in spirit, but I agree with the above that it is irrelevant what happened after his death and "
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To save valuable editor time this RFC should be closed or withdrawn. I'd close it as
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the word "numerous" can be misleading. A solution can be "some observers".
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The Decline and Fall of the Soviet Empire: Forty Years That Shook The World
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when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
1226:) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other
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A Failed Empire: The Soviet Union in the Cold War From Stalin to Gorbachev
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Agreed. If cited in the body, why add a superfluous citation in the lead?
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average per Capita GDP growth was less than 1% during this period,
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It's not even like this is a controversial statement. Per
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Lately, I have noticed a concerning editing trend on the
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No Strains on Soviet Economy During Brezhnev's Lifetime?
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the Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force
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Facts from this article were featured on Knowledge's
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Rfc on Citations regarding Soviet Military strength.
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Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force
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1783:it is online here and lists many other studies
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1755:The part you are pointing only says that it "
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2186:Africas's debt to USSR written off by Russia
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2307:sfn error: no target: CITEREFColeman2006 (
1931:The Soviet Colossus: History and Aftermath
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1593:, are you willing to withdraw? Thanks!
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1953:. University of North Carolina Press.
1875:. Palgrave Macmillan Ltd. pp. 90–109.
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2001:What are your thoughts on this issue?
1800:Yes. As you said, it notes that the "
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1648:and long after his death" instead?
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2623:04:39, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
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1949:Zubok, Vladislav M. (2009) .
1934:(7th ed.). M.E. Sharpe, Inc.
1117:Military biography task force
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1894:. HarperCollins Publishers.
1055:Military history WikiProject
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323:contribute to the discussion
2762:WikiProject Russia articles
2722:GA-Class socialism articles
2682:GA-Class biography articles
1265:When updating the article,
2873:
2822:GA-Class politics articles
2792:GA-Class Cold War articles
994:project's importance scale
889:project's importance scale
784:project's importance scale
615:project's importance scale
496:project's importance scale
138:Featured article candidate
100:Featured article candidate
2807:GA-Class Ukraine articles
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2566:15:31, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
2549:14:10, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
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2380:and long after his death"
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2637:Knowledge good articles
2051:. It is wrong to say; "
1149:World War II task force
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277:Politics and Government
2397:Y was inclined to say
1913:. St. Martin's Press.
1909:Coleman, Fred (1996).
1890:Brown, Archie (2009).
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389:(assessed as
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2022:Brandmeister
1985:Brandmeister
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1645:
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1587:MOS:LEADCITE
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1501:MOS:LEADCITE
1496:
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1456:
1433:
1416:
1403:
1398:Dennis Brown
1397:
1373:
1358:this claim?
1356:
1337:
1297:
1270:
1254:
1223:
1219:
1215:
1211:
1207:
1203:
1196:
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1030:World War II
989:
949:
884:
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779:
739:
692:
672:
648:
610:
586:Soviet Union
570:
519:Soviet Union
491:
451:
384:
360:
312:
249:WikiProjects
232:
203:Good article
202:
177:
155:
143:Not promoted
136:
117:
112:June 6, 2010
105:Not promoted
98:
93:June 8, 2005
51:
49:
45:please do so
33:
32:
28:
15:
2322:Bowker 2002
2128:TimothyBlue
2120:Ponsonby100
1718:DocWatson42
1666:Ponsonby100
1197:written in
157:Peer review
150:May 5, 2012
2631:Categories
2590:WillowCity
2541:Coalcity58
2456:Capitals00
2429:Capitals00
2346:Brown 2009
2291:Zubok 2009
2279:References
2261:Capitals00
2184:20 billion
2080:Solidarity
2075:Capitals00
2061:Capitals00
1808:Capitals00
1768:Capitals00
1632:Capitals00
1577:Discussion
1563:Coalcity58
1457:Suggestion
1421:Staberinde
184:column on
39:under the
2615:Emiya1980
2572:Probably
2507:Emiya1980
2483:Nickelpro
2434:Emiya1980
2415:Altenmann
2384:Emiya1980
2336:, p. 322.
2334:Kort 2010
2293:, p. 268.
2265:Emiya1980
2246:Nickelpro
2210:Emiya1980
2204:Nickelpro
2190:Altenmann
2136:Emiya1980
2132:Spintendo
2116:Sherahzad
2102:Emiya1980
2084:Emiya1980
2035:Emiya1980
2003:Emiya1980
1989:AlsoWukai
1837:Emiya1980
1823:Emiya1980
1735:Emiya1980
1730:Altenmann
1714:Everyking
1699:Emiya1980
1650:Emiya1980
1613:Emiya1980
1591:Emiya1980
1461:O.maximov
1360:Emiya1980
1310:Archive 1
1279:citations
1208:travelled
1022:Biography
467:Socialism
458:socialism
414:Socialism
332:Biography
268:Biography
237:is rated
174:Main Page
2452:WP:UNDUE
2324:, p. 90.
2305:, p. 57.
1690:Rothorpe
1507:Cessaune
1480:WP:RFC/A
1438:WP:RFC/A
1298:Archives
1277:Include
1220:artefact
1034:Cold War
965:Politics
956:politics
912:Politics
755:Cold War
746:Cold War
718:Cold War
532:Military
273:Military
239:GA-class
162:Reviewed
53:reassess
2524:Dympies
2225:decline
2151:Rjensen
2098:Rjensen
2017:détente
1997:Lvivske
1995:, and
1973:Rumiton
1865:Sources
1788:Rjensen
1750:country
1728:, and
1726:唐吉訶德的侍從
1692:, and
1670:Rjensen
1583:WP:SNOW
1546:Dympies
1378:WP:LEAD
1338:90 days
1261:dispute
1224:analyse
1216:defence
992:on the
887:on the
860:Ukraine
851:Ukraine
807:Ukraine
782:on the
613:on the
528:History
494:on the
176:in the
83:Process
2576:, but
2502:during
2477:" or "
2447:Remove
1969:Ezhiki
1442:Fieari
1212:centre
1204:colour
524:Russia
245:scale.
192:, and
124:Listed
86:Result
2583:long
2418:: -->
2371:" or
2232:WP:WL
2193:: -->
1694:Xx236
1611:Yes.
1609:Nemov
1595:Nemov
1484:Nemov
226:This
2619:talk
2574:none
2562:talk
2545:talk
2537:None
2528:talk
2520:None
2511:talk
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2410:None
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2236:WP:V
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2188:. -
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2130:and
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2049:WP:V
2047:See
2039:talk
2007:talk
1955:ISBN
1936:ISBN
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1896:ISBN
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1364:talk
879:High
774:High
321:and
80:Date
2373:(B)
2363:(A)
1527:Yue
1497:No.
984:Mid
605:Top
486:Top
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