Talk:The Holocaust/Archive 20

4022:

program. Would objective historians not consider the death of the Creek under the same rubric? Unlikely. How about if only 50% of the Creek perished? Still unlikely. Now bring it down to 20%. Would the deaths of the Creek be kicked-out of the records? Perhaps not. Okay, how about 10%? The fallacy here is that the percent of destruction is not the proper criteria to consider whether one peoples' death should be treated differently from another, 2) Improper Calculation: your implied percentage is likely understated: 1.4% is found by taking 5 M / 350M. What definition could a person with some semblance of emotion properly use to define such a thing? Are we talking all Europeans who died at the hands and programs of the Nazis? Well then far more than 5 million were certainly killed. Are we talking about those behind the barbed wire of concentration camps? If so, how could one apply 350 Million to the invalids, Roma, Poles, and Slavs who were targeted based on hereditary characteristics? Again, it is difficult to parse annihilation into such neat categories, and 3)Not My Argument: my argument was far more simple than the path of inquiry you are following, to discern the differences between Jewish and Gentile deaths. I had only suggested the Jewish genocide is not without precedent and pointed out the first such mass murders can be seen with the cleansing of the Languedoc of the Cathars. Hope this helps. Thanks.

3069:"we cannot compare the Nazi genocide of the Jews to the persecution of Poles and Roma." What a strange statement! Yes, there are obvious differences, as you point out, and I agree that these differences should be discussed. But how is it POV to point out the number of people, and the different groups of people, murdered in the death and labor camps? I think what's happening here--which is quite common--is that some want the Holocaust to refer ONLY to the Jewish suffering (aka the Shoah), when in fact most "average people" think of the Holocaust as encompassing ALL the murder and suffering that went on in the camps, thus making no mention of the other millions killed is morally troubling. I believe this was the point raised by Simon Wiesenthal. There's something academically unsound about pooh-poohing the murder of millions of people so as to force the focus to be maintained on just the predominant group of those persecuted. It would, in fact, be POV to ONLY mention the Jewish casualties. I'll put it this way: resurrect a jew murdered in the camps and a gypsy murdered in the camps and ask them which suffered more. The question would be absurd, for obvious reasons. -Michael 3185:(Stalingrad and Leningrad) and also populations of villages whose populations were held hostage and then executed if partisans and freedom fighters did not surrender. The same type of atrocities were committed by the Nazis in Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, France , The Netherlands and Belgium, as well as Italy. Russia, unfortunately had a much more involved population and a much larger population. However, the casualties in Russia were not intended as extermination etc., as neither were those civilians killed in similar ways in the other occupied countries, excepting the Jews, Roma and the other groups included in the Holocaust. The Nazis, especially Hitler and I believe Goebbels, had a special hate for the Poles and intended them to be exterminated or used and worked to death. Apparently this evolved from a defeat of the Germans by the Poles in Medieval times, and was an insult to Hitler's insane idea of Germans as being above any other race, in any and all ways. 282:"The editors are tired of rehashing it over and over" Wow, that's interesting, considering the fact that everyone is an editor of wikipedia. These peole who 'rehash' the idea have just as much say as the people who shut them down. If they're so tired, they should take a break and let other people have a say in where the articles go. You aren't helping anyone with your negativity: he has a good point. In fact, I accidently came across this page while looking for the Armenian Holocaust. I don't have a problem with "holocaust" re-directing here, but it certainly raises a good point about how pretentious people are getting over this article. There is no holocaust as well known as this one, but that's a problem not a solution. We're here for the sake of information, not a popularity contest. 2023:

inmates recieved the same fate as the camp inmates in the Polish camps (gassing). I know the Jewish treatment was different. I know that they death toll alone was in all estimation higher then the others combined. but to say that "their persecution cannot by any stretch of the imagination be compared the Jews" is a very strong statement. Mengela didnt care if his twins were Jews or Gypsies. The Police Batalions on the eastern front did not care if they were lining up Jews or Slavic partisans. So while it is legit to say the Jewish suffering was "different" so was the suffering of the Partisans, homosexuals, political dissenters, what have you. Nazis did not make special exeption when it came to whose turn it was for "delousing"

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rather tiresome to have someone visit the article's talk page and rehash old, weak arguments that have never gained consensus and never will, and do so without bothering to check whether the issue has been debated previously. If you think that the primary notoriety of the World War II holocaust is a "problem" to be solved, I suggest you try solving it elsewhere. That's not what Knowledge is for. Also, calling other editors "pretentious people" who are "getting over this article" is a personal attack that will do nothing to help you gain consensus for any of your actions. --

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Yehuda Bauer as "a pro jewish only scholar" as well as rejecting Lucy Dawidowicz's work. It is true that Niewyk is a respected scholar who uses a slightly broader definition, and he is not the only one, but they are a minority. Not to recognize this is to show a lack of knowledge of modern European history or a disingenuous agenda. There are plenty of other references that we could use. There is nothing wrong with using respectable enclopedias or dictionaries: their authority is well accepted. And, of course the "tally" means nothing. --

1634:, i.e. who put their own lives at risk to save Jewish people - 6,066 people, and I think your suggestion veers toward undue weight (do you want to only mention Polish collaborators and not Polish rescuers? Let's not make broad summaries about nationalities as this is inaccurate and offensive). Also, why doesn't the proposed sentence of other groups affected mention the Gypsies? They were also heavily targeted for genocide. I don't see why we should give any greater weight to the opinion of Mr. Gutman just because he wrote a book. 312:

discussion, they have every right. If that small group of editors is tired of dealing with it, they are welcome to step down for the next generation of editors who might have different opinions. The fact that very few people have even heard of a holocaust other than this one is, yes, a problem that needs to be solved. Nobody said anything about the notoriety of this holocaust being a problem, so don't even try tilting in that angle. Informing people is EXACTLY what wikipedia is for. No personal attacks there, god bless opinions.

4827:

excluded from the Holocaust except jews. Apparently, either this edit was incorrect (and the lead paragraphs should be reverted) or the text of the article wrongly continues to discuss millions of others who died (and then these paragraphs should be deleted). A path must be chosen. The article is flawed. If the Holocaust includes various groups, they should all be on this page and the definition broadened to include them. If the Holocaust includes only one group, the others have no business being on this page.

4413:

that also says the Holocaust is a jewish issue. 3)Niewyk, Donald: without doubt, the most, or perhaps only, scholarly source cited. The text does NOT claim the Holocaust was a jewish incident only. 4)Encyclopaedia Britannica: Britannica is a secondary source; you will never see it quoted by an scholar. 5)Encarta: Encarata is a secondary source; you will never see it quoted by an scholar. 6)BBC News, "A View of the Holocaust,": In this case, BBC is a secondary source; you will never see it quoted by an scholar. 7)

3137:. Amongst the issues raised are whether or not these camps are considered extermination camps, if they are extermination camps should they be included in the same section as the traditional six extermination camps associated with the Holocaust, should they be included in a separate section, or should they not be included as many if not most of their victims weren't Jews but of another ethnicity (Serbian, Russian, etc). Any input would be appreciated. 4913:, in 1947 the figure was about 100,000. In the case of the USSR when we compare the Soviet census of 1959 and 1939 we can confirm Jewish losses at about 1 million, within 1939 borders. We can do a similar demographic analysis for the rest of Europe and we will confirm total Jewish losses were 5.7 million. If you still have any doubts, please post them. I will cite sources to convince you that the Jewish death toll was indeed 5.7 million. -- 31: 1173:. If anyone has any reasonable points to make, please post them with sources. I will answer them, and expect them not to be deleted. I have two thoughts on this discussion. The first being that the editors on this page really need to read a good solid history of the topic before they start editing and the second being that we have a moral responsibility to correct the young folks that have been led astray by the Holocaust deniers.-- 2953: 2888: 1726:. And we shouldn't restrict coverage of anti-Semitism to Poland; for a balanced article refer to all relevant countries. I understand the Holocaust is one of the most controversial issues on Knowledge, so I respect we all have different views on what areas should be highlighted and covered. Please write here what text you would like to add to the article, so we can discuss something concrete rather than just vague what-ifs. 3821:. But neither uses the term "literary holocaust." And Alexander Woodside (the scholar who used the term "literary holocaust" in an article in 2003) used this term to emphasize the extent and seriousness of the censorship campaign, not as a consistent label. I am quite certain a Knowledge page cannot be named after a single turn of phrase in a single author's work. Second problem: there is already a section in the 598:. Go ahead, be bold and move it, I have no problem with that. The only bone I have to pick with this article is the fact that the Russians count only 1.3 million dead POW, not 3 million. The balance of 1.7 milion were considered civilians because they were conscripted reservists not listed on the strength of military units. Western historians really need to become familiar with contemporary Russian soruces.-- 3938:

The year 1951 marked the first time it was used in reference to the Nazi mass murders, however, it was used broadly, not focusing solely on jewish victims. It appears that Elie Wiesel – the prolific author – can be credited with recasting the term for popular culture (in the late 50’s to early 60’s) to refer specifically to jews who perished under the Nazis. (Please Refer to the article by Jon Petrie,

1891:"I have sent my Death's Head units to the East in order to kill without mercy men, women and children of the Polish race or language. Only in such a way will we win the lebensraum that we need" - Adolf Hitler. That sounds like genocide to me. However, I do agree with you that Jews were the greatest number of total casualties, but obviously they were not the only victims. Let's not ignore that. 2018:

gypsies in the leadup to WW2. So if you insist that a primer on European persectution of the Jews be placed in this article because without it you imply that anti-semitism was invented in the Nazi age, you must also include an explanations of the hate for these other groups as well, lest they be "mistaken" for new targets sighted by Nazis. OR you could just click the hyperlink to

4208:

Woogie, are you suggesting that 5 million people who perished alongside jews in concentration camps do not deserve mention because they were not jews, and thus, in your opinion, did not suffer as much? If so, are you also in favor in deleting existing articles that discuss suffering if they are not comparable to the uniquely jewish experience of death in a concentration camp?

581:

Caucasus and Baltic regions. The Soviets needed men who could understand orders given in the Russian language. Conscripts who were not proficient in Russian were placed in the rear (Tyl) units for construction and supply. I was told by an ex German POW that guards in his camp were Volga Germans, among the prisoners at the camp were Soviet soldiers convicted for offenses.--

4909:

Polish government in 1947 reported that total war dead were 6,028,000, including 2.8 million Jews. Historians in post communist Poland now estimate the losses at 5 million, including 3 million Jews. The 1947 census of Jews in Poland confirmed beyond any shadow of a doubt that losses were about 3 million. In 1939 there were 3 million Poles who spoke

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over the internet that would suit him better. However, if someone actually comes here with real evidence, like sources, citations, material, that can shed doubt on the Holocaust, it should be discussed, but that's not what Bannedtruth is doing in complaining and refusing to discuss something he wanted to put into a Knowledge article as 'fact'.

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appears to be a collection of articles. I do not have access to the book, however, and cannot declare that it as a whole, takes the POV suggested. This should be investigated. 10)Bauer, Yehuda: pro-jewish only scholar. 11)Dawidowicz, Lucy: it is difficult- very difficult- to consider the "War against the Jews," as a scholarly work.

3813:), but let me post the same content here for the sake of discussion. I think the title Arilang proposes ("Literary holocaust") doesn't work. The main problem is that "literary holocaust" is not the term by which this eighteenth-century censorship campaign is known in the scholarly literature. Luther Carrington Goodrich's book 1584:

the fate of non-Jews. I propose a wording along the lines of, "While Jews were the main group targeted by the Nazis, and indeed the group identified most with the Holocaust, other groups such as Slavs, homosexuals, the disabled, and religious and political dissidents were also killed in the millions." Erik the

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which was a non-Jewish victim chart and was free floating. I made it just a victims chart, added Jews and the same ref from the other table listing 6.8m and moved the table to the first paragraph which describes all victims and death tolls. So it is now spatially attached to it's relevant subject material.

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agendas." As a result, no clear majority can form to improve the article. I will stick around, though, to join with other editors who recognize the flawed logic. Hopefully, all of us, can work together constructively. Let me add a personal note: I truly understand how this topic upsets you so much.

4826:

The matter, in the end, is consistency. For most of this article's history, from the time it was first put up in 2001 until January 2006, the Holocaust was defined as an event that included "various groups," of which jews were one. In January 2006, this changed radically, so that now all groups are

4709:

which is a collection photos taken by a German soldier who was stationed in the city in 1943. The city looked grim, the people were shabbily dressed, but life was continuing as a usual. Polish Christians were shopping, going to work, chatting and eating ice cream. The editor of the photos Malgorzata

4595:. Of the remaining 1.5 million, at least 200,000 were battle casualties of military personnel. The remaining 1.3 are civilian victims of the Nazi occupation. Included in that figure are at least 300-400,000 indirect victims of the war due to famine and disease. The source beingGniazdowski, Mateusz. 4450:

It is with a sense of "deja vu" that I enter this exchange. Anybody who is familar with modern history would agree that most experts/historians/scholars of modern european history use the term Holocaust to refer to the Final Solution. I am afraid that Tobit2 shows his true colors when he writes off

4350:

I have edited the lead to reflect the variation and debate in the usage of the term "Holocaust." The lead is now consistent with the array of sources cited. In editing the lead, though, I realized that there is a laundry list of references in the text that claim to be scholarly (reference list #5).

4305:

The second exception is the poor understanding of the nature of Polish losses during the war. Non Jewish losses in Poland were 2 million not the often quoted 1947 figure of 3 million. About ¼ of these losses were persons deported by the USSR and Poles killed by Ukrainians in 1943-44. Of the remaining

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4155:

Time out, there is no way you can equate the fate of the Jews to that of the Poles. 90% of Polish Jews perished in the war compared to 6% of Polish Catholics. There were 1.3 million German citizens who declared their loyalty to Poland after the war and remained in Poland. They spoke Polish as well as

3035:

2017:

ONE - Anti-semetism was clearly a precondition to the Holocaust, nobody will argue that. Yet so was a deeply rooted history of belittling Slavs and the East in general, which was considered the land of untermensch far before anyone coined the term. Nor was Europe especially friendly to homosexuals or

1824:

I support Erik's suggestion that we cover all groups affected - yes, Jews were a main target, but then so were Gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals and others; it would be just as unfiar to ignore their plight. Woogie, I agree with you that coverage should be fair and unbiased, but from whose perspective? You

1775:

I in fact have read that book, multiple times, and I do not think that the genocide of the Jews compares in any way to that of other victims of Nazi persecution. However, both genocides are classified under the heading of the Holocaust and thus both must be mentioned on this page. We might want to do

1419:

i dont think unless i espouse the mainstream holocaust views that i will be allowed the respect of making contributions to Knowledge. everything is open to discussion and debate.....but this one historical event that cannot survive as history at Knowledge without name calling like "troll" and "crank"

1238:

Be honest, a great deal of the material on Knowledge talk pages is not always directly related to the article per se. Lets us take two examples, person A, a good guy, who is a registered user makes a post to the talk page that quotes a web site claiming the gas chambers were not used for mass murder.

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as saying that such "residual fragments of peoples always become fanatical standard-bearers of counter-revolution and remain so until their complete extirpation or loss of their national character." This is a description of a historical-political dynamic, not an advocation of genocide. In any case it

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in Germnany proved the existance of the use of gas chambers for mass murder. The number of Jews transported to the other Polish death camps was 1.5-2.0 million persons. Demographic studies published in Poland after communism give details of the post war census that listed 250,000 surviving Jews. The

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and is still accepted as being correct. The figure of 4 million dead at Auschwitz was reported separately by Polish and Soviet sources in 1945, it also included Soviet prisoners of war and Poles. Soviet and Polish sources from the post war era are no longer accepted as being valid. For example the

3945:

I suggest, Knowledge would be well served by ending the debates on the jewish issue by having two articles: 1) The main article on Nazi Mass Murders which includes all victims and 2) an article linked to it entitled “Holocaust,” that refers specifically to jews, reflecting the terms usage in popular

2596:

and its talk page. Whether there is actually "proof", etc. that the Holocaust did/did not happen, Holocaust denial is a very well-known topic and the mention of the Holocaust often brings up thoughts of the existance of Holocaust deniers. There has been major media coverage of the topic, and it is

1375:

Irving's reputation as a historian was widely discredited after he brought an unsuccessful libel case against American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books in 1998. During the trial, an English court found that Irving was an "active Holocaust denier," as well as an antisemite and racist, and

1353:

there is a multi-part interview with David Irving in which he talks about the lack of pysical evidence of the holocaust like the gas chambers that didnt exist and also the intercepts of transmissions of british intel that make no mention of the holocaust gassings. that was my source. david irving is

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I understand what he's saying, but as an open dictionary, I think we should encourage people to re-open arguments if it is still unresolved for them. These articles don't belong to the small group of editors, regardless of how much they have invested into it. If someone wants to re-open an issue for

4480:

Joel, your apology is accepted and warranted. Given that, what other comment did you make that still stands? Besides attempting to label me an antisemite and bantering around accusations of ignorance, you have not actually addressed what I said. I would actually appreciate objective discussion.

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7) Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies: the citation actually says, "and other groups ." 8)Compact Oxford English Dictionary: a dictionary is a secondary source; you will never see it quoted by a scholar. 9)Historiography of the Holocaust: one article is cited from this promising source which

4174:

the railway workers who tansported the Jews to their deaths were Polish Catholics. As long as they were doing their jobs they had nothing to fear from the Nazis, they survived the war just like 94% of the other Polish Catholics. You cannot equate the fate of the Polish Jews and Catholics, no way at

3052:

The fate of Soviet POW was tragic. About 3 million of the 5.7 million captured perished in German hands. But we must not forget that 800,000 Soviet POW were released from captivity to serve in the German military. 215,000 died in the German uniform and 285,000 were sentenced by Soviet courts after

2184:

The recent post that claims the social deviants, the poor and the unemployed of Germany should be included as Holocaust victims is original research should be deleted. There is no support in the historical literature that would include the poor with other groups of Holocaust victims. This article

2022:

and find all this out, which is why Knowledge is so cool. TWO - The article is not "highly misleading" when comparing the fate of the "other groups". Basically, their fates are comparable: work to the edge of death and then get gassed. Take Jasenovac where there were propotionally few Jews, but the

1717:

Well, what I wrote does sound quite silly in retrospect - if Gutman's part of Yad Vashem then obviously he's more notable. But you still haven't addressed my point about the 6,066 Righteous Among the Nations - are you going to ignore facts inconvenient to your hypothesis? Nor do you seem to be much

1583:

I agree with your first point. The Nazis were only able to do what they did by scapegoating the Jews, and they were only able to scapegoat the Jews because of rampant anti-Semitism in Europe. To your second point, the article needs to distinguish between the fates of the tow groups without diminish

1415:

in the interview i have referred to david irving states that he is not an antisemite, that his lawyer was a jew, and his attorney was also a jew. why would an antisemite have jewish people in his employ? i think a man with 30 books to his credit, who discredited the Hitler Diaries as the fraud that

1253:

Bad wording on my part, Woogie. By "kept silent" I meant more along the lines of action- but then again what could they do. I agree that talk pages should be used to only discuss changes to the article, but I think that this discussion actually might fit in discussing changes to the article, ie the

732:

so paul, there is no free discussion allowed on this issue? i cant disagree with certain aspects of what is supposed to be an historical event? is this why they throw people in jail in germany and ban them from speaking out on the flaws of the holocaust story? it amazes me that people who claim the

580:

Nazi racist propaganda that depicted the Soviet Army as Asiatic was not at all accurate. About 90% of Soviet combat troops and POW were Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian , 5% Turkic and Asiatic and the remaining 5% from various ethnic groups such as Georgians, Armenians ,other minorities from the

4637:

by Israel Gutman. You really need to have a better understanding of the facts. 80 % of the Jews were killed by the Nazis, 17 % of the non Jewish civilians perished in the Germnan occupied USSR, 4% of ethnic Poles, in Poland, perished during the German occupation. The Poles did little or nothing to

4616:

Thank you for repeating the post. I had not understood it previously. I had meant to ask you about it (context matters) and perhaps I owe you an apology. But if you recognize the imbalance, why do you support the lead? My edits (if you read them again) were an attempt to be consistent with the

4465:

Rereading my post above I now realize that I owe Tobit2 an apology as it appears that he wasn't writing Bauer off, but rather just tallying him as supporter of the Holocaust to mean the genocide of the European jews only. Bauer is of course one of the most respected scholars who explained clearly

4412:

1) Weissman, Gary: this book defines the Holocaust as a jewish issue, but Mr. Weissman's text reads more like a popular narrative than a scholarly examination. Nevertheless, let's let this stand as a reference, for now, that has a POV supporting yours. 2) Yad Vashem Museum: a jewish organization

4380:

Actually, the lede did reflect the sources used, so I restored it. Also, there's nothing wrong with using Encyclopedias as sources, so I've restored them too. It's not a good idea to remove reliable sources that contradict your view, then claim that the sources don't support what they're used for.

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4133:

Firstly, these examples are flawed in that although they may have had some polish ancestry, they were culturally German. For instance, Walter Krupinski was a Prussian not a Pole. And secondly, even if you had given accurate examples of Polish Nazi collaborators, you would have still not proven you

4089:

We need to have a reality check, time to brew up some nice hot coffee. My argument is that Poles and Jews were unequal victims. There were no Nurnberg laws against Poles that were used to classify Jews. 90% of the Polish Jews were rounded up and killed by the Nazis, 94% of the Polish Catholics, in

4021:

I suggest you have misinterpreted the issue. There are three aspects to the misinterpretation: 1) Improper Criteria: imagine a world in which 89% of the Lakota people happened to be murdered systematically, without cause, by the state, and 77% of the Creek were destroyed under the same government

3937:

The Holocaust Talk page has noted a longstanding problem over the title of this article and its application to jewish victims. The problem we have is that the secular term, ‘holocaust,’ has been changed over time. After 1945, ‘holocaust,’ was used widely to refer to the impact of a nuclear war.

3523:

I recently reverted the removal of comments on this talk page that concerned denial of the Holocaust. In my view, the comments that were removed were good faith discussions. In another editor's view, they were vandalism. I'm not aware of any official policy that denying the holocaust is considered

3398:

Depends on the death camp. At Treblinka (where most of my relatives were killed), there was a twenty-foot layer of ashes. Likewise at Maidenek. At Auschwitz, the ashes were used as fertilizer, and also dumped into the local swamps and rivers. The bones were not completely destroyed by cremation; I

2638:

NPOV would be something along the lines of "some historians put the death toll at 5 million Jews, others at 8". Putting the number in the hundreds of thousands and brushing those off as expected casualties in wartime prison setting, and backing it up with forged documents and invented citations is

1936:

which is a collection photos taken by a German soldier who was stationed in the city. The city looked grim, the people were shabbily dressed, but life was continuing as a usual. People shopping, going to work, chatting and eating ice cream. The editor of the photos Malgorzata Baranowska described

296:

Obviously everyone is, or can be, an editor of Knowledge, Thaddeuss, but what I think Alatari is referring to is the fact that most Knowledge pages have a relatively small group of editors who are interested in the article and are familiar with its history and its controversies. For them it can be

110:

I think it should be pointed out that the idea of a Holocaust was first proposed by Karl Marx in 1849. Marx argued that certain races the Scottish Highlanders, Basques, Bretons, and above all the Slovaks were behind capitalism and as such when the workers revolution came would be two steps behind

4576:

in the Soviet Union. Scholars in the English speaking world need to become familiar with recent Russian language sources on civilian losses in the USSR under Nazi occupation. In 1995 the Russian Academy of Science published a detailed analysis of the impact of the war on the USSR. Civilian dead

4516:

This is incorrect. First, the cited sources show a spectrum of views on the use of the term Holocaust yet the article fails to reflect this. Second, as with Joel, you are falsely ascribing an agenda to facts you do not appreciate. Please address the facts rather than spin conspiracy theories.

4335:

I will begin to edit the lead. The sentence upon which the current form is based, "Most scholars, however, define the Holocaust as a genocide of European Jewry alone," contradicts the previous source cited; it defines the Holocaust as the mass murder of Jews, Roma, and Invalids while noting that

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4207:

Woogie has taken this thread in a new and interesting direction. The original topic concerned the creation of an article, entitled, "Nazi Mass Murders," in order to recognize all victims of Nazi persecution. Whether some victims suffered more than others was not raised. But let me understand.

3949:

Additionally, I would like to point out that the argument made on this page suggesting the Jewish mass murders were “unprecedented,” and “unique,” and therefore warrant there own special category are historically unsound. European history, from the Cathars onwards, has been marked by attempts to

3640:

Thats a very good idea in theory. In practice, I'm not sure a template or infobox for genocide is possible. The term itself can be rather loaded, and editors will fight tooth.and nail to make sure that their country or ethnic group isn't assigned blame despite the historic facts. It's hard enough

1689:

I'm not arguing against expansion of discussion of pre-Holocaust European anti-Semitism. Why can't we include other groups without diminishing the importance and impact of Jewish suffering. Knowledge is not a paper encyclopedia, and there is not a limited amount of space. We can give other groups

1460:

the use of gas chambers for mass murder was proven beyond any shadow of a doubt. After reviewing hundreds of hours of testimony the judges concluded that the gas chambers were in fact a horrible reality that cannot be denied. Bannedtruth, if you go to Germany today and deny the Holocaust you will

1125:

Knowledge is supposed to provide, on talk pages, the opportunity to discuss evidence and help people come to a consensus on topics with a scientific eye for detail. Bannedtruth has presented no evidence, so this shouldn't be turned into an online forum, there's places for Holocaust discussion all

233:

Why does the "holocaust" link here? It is not a proper noun BY DEFINITION. There is a disambiguation page and it should fo there first. From there viewers can choose to come here. Furthermore, why is it THE holocaust? the definition of holocaust is not limited to 1940's. Perhaps Holocause (Nazis)

4286:

I do not consider this article to be properly balanced in the treatment of the victims of the Nazis. The article reflects the current position that is widely held by academic circles in the English speaking world. I have two exceptions with this position, the first being the poor coverage of the

1629:

Let's not go engaging in historical revisionism here. I agree with you that European antisemitism was widespread at the time (including Poland), but Auschwitz, Birkenau and other concentration camps located in Poland were run by occupying Nazi forces. Add to that the fact that the Polish are the

991:

well, i think there should be open discussion on this issue, just like there is on all others. if you doubt the official holocaust story you are marginalized and called a "denier" or a "troll". you want facts? how about the fact that in 1942 British Intel cracked the secret getman code and could

338:

I went through and made sure all the headers were left justified instead of free floating and improved the flow of pictures, quotes and charts. The number of changes made in the Victims section over the last 6 months made that task a bit harder. The only change to wording was done in one chart

3184:

The Holocaust should include the 6 milion Jews as well as the Roma, (also known as Gypsies), the ethnic Poles, homosexuals and disabled etc. This would bring the total to 11 million. Many russiancivilians were killed, but these were either war casualties or starvation during sieges and battles

1876:

We need to point out, as does German Knowledge, that the other groups persecuted by the Nazis were not singled out for total destruction like the Jews. There must be a clear distinction between the genocide of the Jews and the Nazi persecutions of Slavs, Roma and homosexuals in order for this

3833:

censorship campaigns of the Qianlong reign. Actually, most of the content of Arilang's sandbox already appears on that page. To summarize: I don't think "Literary holocaust" is appropriate to name a wiki, and I don't think we need a new page devoted to the SKQS suppression campaign, because we

1239:

Let us also assume that the user is a 12 year old who is starting out in life. We have a moral responsibility to point out the facts this user and others, not delete the post. The bad guy, person B who is not a regular user makes a violent anti-semetic remark, we need to delete this material.--

1205:, you are not the sole judge of what is posted here. You do not own the article. Who are you to decide what is posted on the discussion page. Time out, you are dealing with a guy who has been on Knowledge for three years, I have a solid track record of dealing with facts backed up by sources.-- 519:

Please take no offence, but are there any other estimates ? For example Soviet ones or Western we could compare with Russian ones ? I am asking because Russia underwent nationalism period after collapse of SU and sometimes the role of Russians and Russian history is portayed in dubious way by

4547:

Don't fret; I know the score: three on one. Joel has suggested "we can get other sources," while you state, Niewyk is "our source." So it appears, Woogie, Jay, and Joel have settled down on this article and bat off any who encroach, attempting to paint them as foes, antisemites with "hidden

1050:

This is not the place for this discussion. Knowledge talk pages are for discussing changes and improvements to their respective articles, not for debates about the existence of the article's subjects. If Bannedtruth has some material he wishes to add to the article, all he needs to is provide

119:

by Engels (not Marx), which says nothing about Scottish Highlanders, Basques, Bretons and others being "behind capitalism". It says that such marginalised peoples develop a fanatical anti-modernising ideology since their continued existence as an ethnicity "is itself a protest against a great

4430:

It appears there is, among scholarly sources, debate over the application of the term, "Holocaust." Niewyk captures this debate very nicely and the same debate should be presented in Knowledge. I will reinstated the edits, given this discussion. Reflecting disagreement, when it exists, is

1551:

TWO- The article is highly misleading when it equates the fate of the other groups persecuted by the Nazis with the Jews. The Slavs were indeed victims but their persecution cannot by any stretch of the imagination be compared the Jews. Also, anti-Semitism in Poland during the war needs be

4656:

Then it seems we are in agreement. Trying to equate or even compare suffering is not appropriate. Forgive me for repeating my post..."Woogie has taken this thread in a new and interesting direction. The original topic concerned the creation of an article...to recognize all victims of Nazi

2330:

Erik, I am very disturbed by your strange arguments here. If a group of people were targeted and murdered in the camps, that MUST be mentioned in this article! You seem to be implying that this page should ONLY address the Jewish victims--a position that is academically absurd and morally

536:

On a practical level a knowledge of Russian language was necessary for troops in combat units. In combat orders must be communicated and understood without delay. For example in 1940-41 the Soviets drafted men from the annexed territories; Poles and Baltic conscripts were usually placed in

5014:

I am not sure that this belongs on the Holocaust page. Hitler in Mein Kampf did say that once the Jews ruled the world they would use an international language such as Esperanto and force everybody to use it. Part of Nazi antagonism was due to the fact it was a vehicle for international

4138:. The existence of Jewish Nazi collaborators no more proves that Jews generaly collaborated with the Nazis than does the existence of Polish Nazi collaborators prove that Poles generally collaborated with the Nazis. Both Jews and Poles did not, for the most part, collaborate with Nazis. 4306:

1.5 million, at least 200,000 were battle casualties of military personnel. The remaining 1.3 are civilian victims of the Nazi occupation. Included in that figure are at least 300-400,000 indirect victims of the war due to famine and disease. The source beingGniazdowski, Mateusz.

1068:

Jpgordon is right. Besides, there is overwhelming evidence that the British government knew of the mass murders, but kept silent. The British population of the 40's was too anti-Semetical to either care about the Holocaust or support the government in taking action. Erik the

520:

Russian sources. Anyway it still means placing Soviet POWs in Slavs category is wrong-they were killed primarily because they were Soviets not because they were Slavs(I do not deny that Slavs were to be exterminated according to German state, and such operations existed) --

3668:

it's wrong to ignore that. many of the people who helped the jews were Christians who loved them because of Jesus their jewish messiah. those kinds of Christians are the ones helping Israel and the Jewish people. they don't ask anything in return but are treated badly.

2546:

policy. Surely if this subject is being debated, then should it really be considered such? This is probably approaching a more philosophical level and not really relevent, because by this logic almost every article on wikipedia could be deemed opinionated, since we cannot

4590:

The second exception is the poor understanding of the nature of Polish losses during the war. Non Jewish losses in Poland were 2 million(6% of the population) not the often quoted 1947 figure of 3 million. About ¼ of these losses were persons deported by the USSR and

3987:

The study of European culture and it's historical changes is very wide indeed. If you are interested in this area, one place you may wish to investigate are the articles of medieval historian Teo Ruiz at ULCA; I believe he has also produced some works for a popular

3028:

Lihhas, we cannot compare the Nazi genocide of the Jews to the persecution of Poles and Roma. Rhetoric aside, the actual reality was that 6% of Polish Christians perished in the war compared to 90% of the Polish Jews. When I was in Poland in 2002 I purchased a book

4243:

Tobit, we cannot compare the Nazi genocide of the Jews to the persecution of Poles and Roma. Rhetoric aside, the actual reality was that 6% of Polish Christians perished in the war compared to 90% of the Polish Jews. When I was in Poland in 2002 I purchased a book

1284:. Not all talk pages are ideal, but with a subject as potentially incendiary as the Holocaust extended debate is not necessary or wanted. We're not going to change a "revisionists" view, and there are better venues than this to engage them in extended discussions. 4501:

Time out, the lead does in fact relect the view of Niewyk. The conflicting views are in fact on the page already. What Tobit wants to do is equate the genocide of the Jews with the other groups persecuted by the Nazis. Read Niewyk, he does not express this POV

3910:

While this was of course overwhelmingly a crime directed agains the Jewish people, I do think some mention should be made of the many Catholics who were killed by the regime. People like Father Maximillian Kolbe deserve that much recognition at least, surely?

4007:. I would like to point out the fact that 78% of the 7.3 million Jews in Nazi domintated Europe perished compared to 1.4 % (5 million) of the 350 million non Jews. Your argument of equating the Jewish and non Jewish victims of Hitler is historically unsound-- 4794:

Just to make my position clear. I have just re-read the lead paras and checked the references. I do not think that they need to be changed. The references are all authoritative (If we really need more we could cite Martin Gilbert's The Holocaust, p. 18).

452:

hoards with Asiatic features. The reality was quite different, only about 5% of Soviet combat forces were from the Turkish and Asian ethnic groups. These groups were considered unreliable and were used mostly in rear area units. The Germans did recruit a

4336:

many more millions were also killed as part of the overall Nazi Mass Murder program. Paragraphs will be edited to be consistent with the sourced material. In the near future, I will create a second article to be more inclusive (see above section). Thanks.

3548:

They were somewhat conspiracy threoryist, but they did concern the specific camp. There was also a solid response which was also removed. One was a rant that was removed and not restored. The edit removing the material (for a second time) can be found

1937:

the niezwykla codzieennosc, in English extraordinary normality. There is also a photo on Mirowska street Warsaw in 1943 of two women who are clearly Roma. At the same time in 1943 thousands of Polish Jews were being murdered in the camps every day.--

1435:

You're correct in that as long as you espouse falsehood (i.e., Holocaust denial), you'll be given little or no credence on Knowledge. Perhaps you might find an area you can make useful contributions in; Holocaust studies are clearly not your forte.

1805:

We need to give readers a fair and unbiased introduction to the Holocaust. The history of European anti-Semitism needs to be covered in the article. German Knowledge gives adequate coverage to this topic and could serve as a guide for editors here

5067:, 2007: "the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women and children, and millions of others, by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II. The Germans called this "the final solution to the Jewish question." 4657:

persecution. Whether some victims suffered more than others was not raised." We have come full circle. No agenda here. Simply put, the lead paragraphs for this article are inconsistent with the later text in the Victims and Death Toll section.

4571:

in the treatment of the victims of the Nazis. The article reflects the current position that is widely held by academic circles in the English speaking world. I have two exceptions with this position, the first being the poor coverage of the

111:

that is to say medival while the rest of the world was post-capitalist. Marx argued that "the races and classes which are too weak to survive must perish in a revolutionary holocaust." This is the earliest known use of political genocide.

3382:

what happens to a persons bones when you cremate the body? isnt there some method used today where they are put into a grinder? was this method also used during the Holocaust with the millions who were gassed? what was done with the bones?

1150:

I assumed good faith on the part of Bannedtruth and asked him to engage in rational dissussion. However, his edit history today indicates that he is disruptive person who wastes the time of serious editors. Jpgordon was right to delete his

1951:

I agree with Woogie that the great majority of this article must be dedicated to what the Nazis called "the Final Solution to the Jewish question." However, that does not mean excluding entirely all other groups, just giving them their

3232:

Perhaps you might read the first chapter of the article (after the table of contents.) As far as why it's capitalized, it's like the Civil War, the American Revolution, or the War on Drugs. It's a title for a particular set of events.

4090:

Poland, survived the war working for Germany. There should be no comparison of Polish and Jewish Holocaust victims. We need to put the issue in a proper perspective on this page. Also it must be mentioned that there were 2 million ::

4718:. In this book there is a photo on Mirowska street Warsaw in 1943 of two women who are clearly Roma, walking with other pedestrians . At the same time in 1943 thousands of Polish Jews were being murdered in the camps every day. -- 949:

Let the guy come on, we can refute his arguments. Holocaust denial is in the same ballpark as the Lost Continent of Atlantis and the face on Mars. No personal attacks, just facts and sources. Let's go, Bannedtruth, throw the first

1191:; it is not to discuss the Holocaust. If you or anyone persists in inappropriate conversation, it will be deleted. Feel free to set up your own website to argue with Holocaust deniers and similar idiots; it doesn't belong here. -- 4259:. In this book there is a photo on Mirowska street Warsaw in 1943 of two women who are clearly Roma, walking with other pedestrians . At the same time in 1943 thousands of Polish Jews were being murdered in the camps every day. 3044:. In this book there is a photo on Mirowska street Warsaw in 1943 of two women who are clearly Roma, walking with other pedestrians . At the same time in 1943 thousands of Polish Jews were being murdered in the camps every day. 1481:

I don't think I've ever heard it expressed so eloquently and bluntly at the same time. :) There is a difference between a minorithy view and simple incorrectness. I quite frankly don't see the point of Holocaust denial. Erik the

249:

This has been discussed many time in this page and editors are tired of rehashing it over and over. Check back through the archives. This is not WikiDictionary so the most common historic usage of the term gets priority hence

4264:

The handicapped were persecuted by the Nazis, 200,000 were murdered. Let us not forget that the German Protestant churches protested this barbarity and the executions were halted. They did not make similar protests to save the

3049:

5015:

understanding and part was certainly due to the fact that its founder Zamenhof was Jewish. Zamenhof's whole family was exterminated by the Nazis but it is likely that was because they were Jewish and not Esperanto speakers.--

1376:

that he "associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism." The judge also ruled that Irving had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence."

3278:

okay, so if this was a "Holocaust" what word can be used to describe the alleged 60 million people that Stalin murdered? or the Cambodian murders that are said to total three million? is there something special about this?

4156:

German. During the Nazi era they were not subject to racial persecution like the Jews. They served the Third Reich like other Germans, in 1946 they suddenly became loyal Polish citizens. These are facts you cannot deny.--

4074:

Say, if you want to know the facts organized in a logical manner, just read the article along with a pot of coffee, I prefer my black , with no sugar. If you have an issue with the material in the article just post it

2866:

But that is exactly the point. Knowledge is global (see the tag), it should not reflect a mentality that refers to only some academics. as you said above, the others need to be given credence too. which is mentions in

1956:, which is considerably smaller. I also agree with Woogie that pre-war European anti-Semitism must be discussed at length in order to give readers a clear picture of how the Jews were able to be scapegoated. Erik the 2059:

Are the images of this section of the article hidden on purpose or is it a mistake? The pictures are covered by a text box and I'm not good at fixing and formatting pictures on WP... Maybe someone could fix this?

3885:

Actually the reference given does not say that Wolf attended the conference, it just says that the picture shows: "leaders of the Third Reich's immense police apparatus." I Lists I have seen do not list Wolf, i.e.

4004:

3467:

would provide a less offensive form of escapism for this person. Millions died at the hands of the Nazis, people who survived the war or lost family members would this discussion of bones and remains offensive.--

3611:

This is not just for the Holocaust Per-se, but the site lacks a genocide infobox, if its possible, im not sure how to make one, but if theres any way to make an infobox for genocides could someone take this up?

2569:

policy. Surely if this subject is being debated (which, in fact, it isn't. there are just a few kooks trying to crank up phony "debate") then should it really be considered as such? I guess that "since we cannot

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the page, and see the vandalism. Some of the best vandalism Ive seen by the target and time up. (not as good as willys page moves, the ascii goatse, and the bodybuilder with an erection that made the front page)

4100:

was in the Bunker with Hitler in 1945, Christian, Gerda, née Daranowski, born on December 13, 1913 in Berlin, since 1937 Hitler´s Secretary, until May 1, 1945 in the bunker, successful escape to West Germany.

4927:

I'm sure you're right, I was simply questioning the outdated references in the article. I think that if you put new sources from the 90's or the 21st century, no more reader will have any doubt about numbers.--

3101:, Shmuel Krakowski. Most "average people" that you refer to need to know the fact that the Jews and Roma of Europe were singled out for destruction, the other peoples of Europe were to be enslaved by Germany-- 3591:

Could somebody please clarify in the lead when the Holocaust was started and when the general public became aware of it? This is important and is not common knowledge, there are many popular misconceptions.

3740:

My suggestion is to keep it with Chinese History. You have done a lot of good work. I am sure the article on the Literary Holocaust will not please the Chi Com secret police. Best Wishes for the New Year.--

4261:

German Homosexuals were persecuted, about 10,000 (1%) of the estimated 1,000,000 German Homosexual population died in the camps, compared to 160,000 of the 165,000 German Jews who were sent to the camps

3046:

926:

and avoid personal attacks. This page is for discussing improvements to the article; let's use it for that. Bannedtruth, if you don't have anything constructive to suggest, please do not post here again.

712:

We don't argue with denialists because there is no point. They are way way beyond any form of mainstream scholarship on the subject. And that's the last I'll say on the matter unless you want to raise any

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vandalism on wikipedia, but I'm aware that to do so in certain countries (France for example) is illegal. I consider it to be a matter of free speech, but another opinion would be appreciated. Thanks.--

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Use whatever word you like. "The Holocaust" is a particular set events, one of many holocausts, certainly, but the term "The Holocaust" generally applies in the limited sense used in the article. --

1761:, please read it. Then you will understand why the genocide of the European Jews by Nazis cannot cannot by any stretch of the imagination be compared to the other groups persecuted by the Nazis.-- 4638:

help the Jews and many helped the Germans in the destruction process. In Germany itself there were 2 million Reich citizens who were ethnic Poles, for example one of Hitler's personel secretaries

4427:...Tally...1 scholarly work agrees with jewish only holocaust, 3 questionable sources also say jewish-only holocaust, 2 scholarly sources suggest a boarder holocaust definition, and 1 is unknown. 2844:

Here in the English speaking world, most people including academics, use the word Holocaust to describle only the Nazi genocide of the Jews, I strongly suggest that you do not change the article--

4984:

mentions people speaking/advocating that language were targeted during the Holocaust. Does that possibly merit a brief mention in this article, or is it already covered in a sub-article?

3490:

Lets put in a few words about the work of the French priest in the Ukraine that appeared in the NY Times. The section Death squads (1941–1943) would be the appropriate place. How about,

254:

redirects here. There are other historic uses of Holocaust where it means "burnt offering unto God" and those are covered in the dablink (disambig link) found at the header of this page:

2574:

that anything that we think happened in the last 10000 years happened" (and the Moon landings certainly fall in that time frame) we should treat this as if there is some honest doubt. --

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Well, that's just kinda too bad. We get to discuss facts (such as how the remains of my relatives were dispersed), even if they happen to offend someone -- Knowledge isn't censored. --

1776:

something similar to the French Knowledge and have a separate article under "Shoah" (which currently redirects to this page) dedicated entirely to the genocide of the Jews. Erik the

3539:

Depends on the comments. Did they involve discussing improvements to, or problems with, the article? If so, they're appropriate here (broadly speaking.) If not, they're zappable. --

4044:

school of Holocaust studies. I am a bit sympathetic to your POV since I am 1/16 Creek on my moms side. The next time I am in Oklahoma I need buy a pedigree to hang up in the den--

2075:

On my computer, it looks fine. No text overlapping the images. I am using a Windows XP machine with Mozilla Firefox browser set to a viewing size of 1024x768. What are you using?

408:

Why are Soviet POWs under Slavs section ? Soviet soldiers s were also people like Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Azeris who were murdered as well. And they definetely don't classify as Slavs.--

4058:

Why is it that some writers resort to insults rather than fact-based argument? Just something I've always wondered about. Please let's try to stick to facts and logic. Thanks.

1568:? I contend that the editors haved chosen to ignore this historical reality in order to avoid the noisy denials of anti-Semites who wish to promote historical revisionism-- 2542:

I personally think that there should be more on holocaust denial than just a "see also". On this subject, can we really treat the Holocaust as "fact" without breaking the

4732:

Shall I start removing the extraneous material or would you prefer the honor? It seems one of us should finish Goodoldpolonius2's work. Let me know, because I'm ready.

2135:

Does it make sense to have coordinates of one particular camp on the top of the page? The Holocaust wasn't about a place definable by a single latitude and longitude. --

358:

Why cant any one edit this article ? I do not see the edit this page button on this article about Holocaust. I have never seen this happen on any other Knowledge page.

1611:

I contend that, the other groups were indeed victims but their persecution cannot by any stretch of the imagination be compared the Jews. This needs to be made clear.

1525:

needs to be addressed. The article as it stands now implies that the Holocaust occured with the advent of the Nazis, without a discussion of the deep rooted European

3950:

destroy and expel the “other” among us; the Jewish genocide may be the most recent and perhaps a more vicious product of what is a longstanding defect in the culture.

3217:

can someone tell me when the word "Holocaust" was first used? was it by the Soviets way back in WWII or was it later. and why is it capitalized like Coke or Pepsi?

4762:

That would be disingenuous. The correct solution would be to be consistent with the current lead paragraph as edited, quietly and without debate, in January 2006.

4533:

Cut the jargon, our source Niewyk does not support your hidden agenda, Niewyck's views are in fact reflected on the page. You can't use Niewyck for your POV push--

4420:....Tally so far: 2 questionable sources that suggest a jewish-only holocaust, 1 scholarly source presents a boarder holocaust defintion. But let's continue.... 4404:

Now how can this be? The article says, "Most scholars, however, define the Holocaust as a genocide of European Jewry alone." So let's look at the sources cited:

3463:

I agree, this page is should be for improving the article, not a rehash of Holocaust denial. UFO’s, the lost continent of Atlantis and the ancient astronauts of

2963: 2898: 2037:- i forogt to add, if you are seeking to have people identify the special case of the Jews within the Holocaust, I believe you what you mean to refer to is the 2551:

that anything that we think happened in the last 10000 years happened, but I think this might be important as the Holocaust/ no holocaust debate gets heated.--

3492:

Currently there is a project, led by a French cleric, to document the murder of the 1.5 million Jews of Ukraine, shot dead and buried throughout the country.

1862:

to support my position that the European antisemitism needs addressed in this article. Hilberg and Dawidowicz were Americans. Gutman is an Israeli national.--

3809:

Hello everyone, and Happy New Year to all those who celebrate it! I've already posted my opinion concerning Arilang's sandbox on his talk page (specifically

4956:

Yiddish speaking population of Poland was gone after the war. The mass executions by the Einsatzgruppen in the USSR was detailed at the Nuremberg Trials. --

1983:

I've reorganized the victims section, so that there are two subsections, "Jews" and "Other groups", with the other groups section further divided. Erik the

4599:

The Polish Quarterly of International Affairs, 2007, no. 1.This article is available for purchase from the Central and Eastern European Online Library at

4310:

The Polish Quarterly of International Affairs, 2007, no. 1.This article is available for purchase from the Central and Eastern European Online Library at

4094:

who were treated as other Germans as long as they used the German language. Ethnic Poles from pre war Germany were considered Germans in the Third Reich

4850:

The link used in source number 88 is no longer active or is incorrect. I found a working link to the original page that has the cited information on it:

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to Hitler, writing that both men were obsessed by the "demonologized universe" inhabited by Jews. This article is a whitewash of the problem of European

2284:

Woogie, do you have a reliable source on the percentage of non-Jewish Poles killed? I think it would be a good thing to add into the article. Erik the

1560:

for a discussion of this sensitive issue. Why does this article ignore the ugly issue of anti-Semitism in Poland during the war that was documented by

5063:, 2000, p.45: "The Holocaust is commonly defined as the murder of more than 5,000,000 Jews by the Germans in World War II." Also see "The Holocaust," 2722: 2484:

Why is there no secton for peole who say the holocaust did not happen? I think this is worthwhile and should be mentioned at the end of the article.

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in the article, hence the lead should reflect a paraphrase of the key points from the article. Ie- that jews are not the only with others as "

4904:

Good point, the Jewish Holocaust death toll computed on a demographic basis is about 5.7 million. This was disclosed in a 1946 report by the

1338:

If you're trying to find the truth, stating unverified, unsourced, erroneous claims as factual is a pretty poor way of looking for the truth.

3866:

A name lacks in the list of Wannsee Conference attendees : Karl Wolf : The "Eyes and Ears" of Heinrich Himmler. He was present, according to

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Non-Point of View. Taking one side, when disagreement exists, is a Point of View. Let's try to make a good article into a great article!

4748:

Let it stay, the readers will draw their own conclusions when they read that in the Holocaust 6% of Poles died compared to 90% of Jews.--

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that caused the widespread use of the term by the general public. I am from the old school and can remember when the term was unknown.--

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I'm a new user and cannot edit the article, but if an old user wouldn't mind doing this for me, I'm sure others would appreciate it!

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page, though the term "literary holocaust" should be presented as Woodside's term, not as some kind of self-evident label. Cheers,

3641:

getting some of these articles stable, the thought of getting editors to agree what can and cannot be included seems impossible .--

1312:

i am sorry that i caused such a stirr with some questions. i have no agenda, no axe to grind. i am just trying to find the truth.

404:

Why are Soviet POWs under Slavs section ? Soviet soldiers were also people like Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Azeris who were murdered as well.

4390:

I agree Jayjg's edits. The lead should be clear & concise, not a POV push for the non Jewish groups persecuted by the Nazis--

2815: 2681: 2270:. There is no support in the historical literature that would include the German poor with other groups of Holocaust victims-- 2208:

members of the ethnicity should be included in the other groups section, and even then in less detail then the Jews. Erik the

4947:

I always check figures, I never accept them on faith. The source must be credible and make sense. The noted Polish historian

4883:) based on pre-1989 sources in this article? p.s.: I'm everything but a negationist, it's just for the sake of correctness.-- 4592: 3970:

the Jewish genocide may be the most recent and perhaps a more vicious product of what is a longstanding defect in the culture

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Rhetoric aside, the actual reality was that 6% of Polish Christians perished in the war compared to 90% of the Polish Jews.--

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Lihaas let us see the sources for your attempt to globalize the page, without sources this is strictly your personel POV.--

3647: 3251:, there were few references to the Holocaust before 1968 when Nora Levin wrote a best selling historical account entitled 3143: 1295: 1103: 992:

intercept the communications from Auschwitz to Berlin and nowhere is there any mention of one gassing let alone millions.

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I'd say add it in somewhere around Freemasons. A few sentences would bring more value to this already excellent article.

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wiki explaining the suppression campaign that Woodside called a "literary holocaust." And there is already a page called

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Tobit let us see the sources for your attempt to create a new page, without sources this is strictly your personel POV--

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puts the death toll at 1.3 million at Auschwitz based on research of the camp records. Evidence presented at the the

2376: 145:

The current page has extreme vandalism done to it, I don't have the right to edit it and I've no clue how he did it.

4875:

In 1989 the Aushwitz Muzeum reestimated the total amount of victims in that camp from 4 million to 1.1 million (see

4365:

Ok, I removed the obvious non-scholarly references from list #5. A few others look out of place. I'll investigate.

3454:

Every one of your edits to Knowledge puts your intent in question. You might wish to choose another subject area. --

2204:

We cannot let this article evolve into a list of every ethnicity on the face of the planet. Only ethnicities killed

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the war for collaboration, another 180,000 of these collaborators found refuge in western countries after the war.

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the war for collaboration, another 180,000 of these collaborators found refuge in western countries after the war.

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I see what you mean -- the two quotation boxes in that section don't render the same way in Firefox and in MSIE. --

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which engages in open debate with Holocaust deniers. I strongly recommend that this user check the Nizkor website

1012: 258: 38: 2611:"There are some idiots who believe or assert the Holocaust did not occur. For a discussion of this pathology, see 2356:

You actually want this to be upheld?!? Surely this is precisely the kind of statement that fuels anti-Semitism. --

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already have two of them that present this information. But Woodside's words definitely deserve citation in both

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Ah, I found it. Yes, someone messed with a template, and the damage was already reverted by the time I looked. --

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This page is to disuss improvements to the article, not for talk that belongs at the water cooler, good night.--

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Auschwitz; a report on the proceedings against Robert Karl Ludwig Mulka and others before the court at Frankfurt

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No, we are not in agreement. The persecution of non-Jews should not be considered as part of the Holocaust. --

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This article is under semi-protection to prevent persistent vandalism. Please see the article on Knowledge's

4932: 4888: 3922: 3692: 3624: 3568: 3080: 2575: 2342: 2154: 298: 219: 3715:, before I turn it into an article, user PBS suggest I put a request here for discussion. Thanks. Also see 2624:

I'm glad you agree that it deserves a few sentences. Let's try to reword that into something appropriate.

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I don't see why we should give any greater weight to the opinion of Mr. Gutman just because he wrote a book

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I know, I have been on the China mainland. The communists will be defeated, its only a question of time.--

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Currently there is a discussion about the inclusion of several camps on the Holocaust template, including

457:

during the war. Nazi propaganda depicted these Asiatic volunteers with their faces turned to the side!

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No where did I "equate the fate of the Jews to that of the Poles". You are pulling this out of thin air.

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were forced to grind them down with pestles. Nowadays, they use electric grinders to reduce the bones. --

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a topic that is inseperable with the Holocaust. Bottom line, it deserves more than a buried "see also".

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Interesting question. Do you really think we can treat the Moon landings as "fact" without breaking the

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only cite Israeli and German sources so far, which I respectfully suggest is hardly balanced coverage.

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is a well known and respected scholar of the Holocaust. He was chairman of the Scientific Council of

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I do not support your attempt to equate the other groups persecuted by the Nazis with the Jews. Read

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The UK was not silent! In Dec 1942 the UK condemed the mass murder of the Jews. Read this BBC report,

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revolting. It's not every day that someone pooh-poohs the murder of 2-5 million people. -Michael

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and cannot exist as historical fact in europe without the threats of fines, jail and deportations.

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Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject

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you see, there you go. i get called a "troll" and does anyone care? can anyone say double standard

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I would suggest that Encarta and BBC reports are not scholarly. These should be deleted. Thanks.

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Very first sentence is vandalised: "The Holocaust was a time with hitler or somefin", fix it up.

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Losses Inflicted on Poland by Germany during World War II. Assessments and Estimates—an Outline

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Losses Inflicted on Poland by Germany during World War II. Assessments and Estimates—an Outline

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his position in his address to the German Bundestag. However, the rest of my comments hold. --

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I reverted the post on the inclusion of the German poor becuase I believe it violates the rule

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Those boxes were just all wrong. I've done something saner so it at least will be readable. --

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Source for 5 % ? Anyway it would still mean that placing Soviet PoWs among Slavs is wrong.--

454: 437: 413: 268:. As for THE Holocaust, can you name any other Holocaust as widely known as the WWII one? 126: 4707: 4248: 4135: 3033: 1934: 5030: 5029:

Hmm, yes I guess whether non-Jewish Esperantists were targeted would merit investigation.

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were 13.7 million, within 1946-91 borders. The source being, Rossiiskaia Akademiia nauk.

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were 13.7 million, within 1946-91 borders. The source being, Rossiiskaia Akademiia nauk.

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I agree, I must repeat my earlier post. When I was in Poland in 2002 I purchased a book

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linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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which has a good overview of the Christian persecutions of the Jews over the centuries.

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first of all Paul, nobody was asking you. and i wish you could call me that to my face.

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We will cite the NY Times as a source, which is reliable and can be verified on line.--

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Perhaps you might read the article; there are about a thousand words on the subject. --

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when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an

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proved the mass murder using of gas chambers by the Nazis. Source: Naumann, Bernd

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The Emperor's Four Treasuries: Scholars and the State in Eighteenth-Century China

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does it matter? i was called a "denialist" and did anyone make an issue of that?

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i dont own a watercooler. have there been other "Holocausts" throughout history?

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a well known historian with over 30 books to his credit. is that a good source?

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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their due weight without taking away from the due weight of the Jews. Erik the

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for details). So why keeping uncorrected data (ex.: 5.9 million jews killed -

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The Tally complied above suggests otherwise. You may still address that post.

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I'm using Windows Vista, Internet Explorer browser and viewing size 1280X800.

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The facts are quite clear, one cannot compare the fate of Jews and Poles.--

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I was just coming here to discuss the same thing. That should be removed.

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is getting closer, instead of getting further away. Happy New Year to you.

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Balts are not a Slavic people's group. Lithuanians and Latvians belong to

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Yep, clear-cut trolling and disruption. Good work, whoever deleted it. --

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Perhaps I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Have you reloaded the page? --

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is irrelevant to this article, which is specifically about Nazi crimes.

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Nazi's were so evil and wrong are yet so quick to adopt their tactics

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I propose to remove it then from Slavs section, if nobody disagrees.--

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http://chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/jewishResponses.html

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to that effect. There are better places to have this discussion. --

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I propose to remove it then from Slavs section, if nobody disagrees

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Liudskie poteri SSSR v period vtoroi mirovoi voiny:sbornik statei

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Liudskie poteri SSSR v period vtoroi mirovoi voiny:sbornik statei

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Liudskie poteri SSSR v period vtoroi mirovoi voiny:sbornik statei

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The quotation in question is a garbled version of a passage from

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3 million Christians lots of Catholics suffered in the holocaust

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User:Arilang1234/Sand box/Literary Holocaust by Manchu Qianlong

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haven't found all the details, but at least at some camps, the

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That this article is linked to from the image description page.

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In that case, I'm surprised you're unfamiliar with Knowledge's

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Not here. This page is solely to discuss the Knowledge article

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what I had in mind when I asked for constructive suggestions.

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Banned truth, what are your arguments? Who are your sources? --

3356:. Take a look at this Knowledge page for further information. 2946: 2881: 2787: 2665: 2415:

File:1938 Interior of Berlin synagogue after Kristallnacht.jpg

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by ROLF BICKEL provides an overview of the Frankfurt trials.--

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Image copyright problem with Image:Einsatzgruppen Killing.jpg

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for anybody who discovers a new group of Holocaust victims.--

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addressed in the article, I recommend that the editors read

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German citizens of Polish ancestry living in pre war Germany

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can someone tell me when the word "Holocaust" was first used

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on the image's description page for the use in this article.

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Knowledge is not an indiscriminate collection of information

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The issues raised by Bannedtruth have been addressed by the

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Is it still there? Likely someone messed with a template. --

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sources and the text in the Victims and Death Toll section.

4414: 257:"Holocaust" and "Shoah" redirect here. For other uses, see 3972:; can you provide a source or is this just your opinion?-- 1465:

Bannedtruth be nice and stop wasting our valuable time. --

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This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

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I just came here (see my signature for time), never loaded

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There is more than just a "see also" on the article for

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and who removed them? i'm getting a little pissed here.

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I do not consider this article to be properly balanced

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Suggestion to create new article, “Nazi Mass Murders.”

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Included here as a See also, which seems about right.

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find yourself in front of a judge to answer charges.

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I must repeat my earlier posting, please forgive me.

2615:." Perhaps someone might suggest better language. -- 1519:To improve this article I recommend the following. 1416:

they were deserves a little more respect than this.

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were usually placed in construction(tyl) formations"

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Say, what is the source for your propsosed edits?--

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Unequal Victims Poles and Jews During World War Two

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Facts and sources are 682:Because they were pure trolling and denialism. 564:people's group and Estonians are Finno-Ugric.-- 3416:The Holocaust cannot be denied, please read 2449:. For assistance on the image use policy, see 3255:, in 1978 there was a popular TV soap opera, 2960:The examples and perspective in this article 2895:The examples and perspective in this article 2772: 2410:The following images also have this problem: 1850:I cite the well known and respected scholars 1452:and review their material on the Holocaust. 8: 3757:Hey, you are not wrong! There certainly are 3653: 3648: 3643: 3149: 3144: 3139: 2756: 2742: 2313:Read the article! It is already there. 6%.-- 2180:The German Poor, are they Holocaust victims? 1541:draws a line of "anti-Semitic descent" from 1296: 1291: 1286: 1254:change to include denialist POV's. Erik the 4687:Then they should be deleted from this page. 2728: 1521:ONE- The historical background of European 851:Actually, Bannedtruth, it does matter, per 747:and i dont argue with small-minded bigots. 628:This editor has been blocked indefinitely. 3940:http://www.berkeleyinternet.com/holocaust/ 655:The following discussion has been closed. 646: 5052: 5050: 4642:. These are facts that can't be denied.-- 4108:was a top fighter ace of the Third Reich. 2998:Learn how and when to remove this message 2933:Learn how and when to remove this message 2721:Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup ( 2379:is used in this article under a claim of 1395:He knows this. He's a troll. Ignore him. 1171:This is not the place for this discussion 448:Nazi propaganda depicted Soviet Army as 3679:. Anyone caught assisting the Jews were 2713:The following is what the reverter put: 2430:Image:Israel'sDepartmentStoreboycott.jpg 5046: 3815:The Literary Inquisition of Ch’ien-lung 614:why were my edits to this page removed? 120:historical revolution". He then qoutes 4842:Replacement internet link for a source 2786:of approximately six million European 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4593:Poles killed by Ukrainians in 1943-44 3354:other "Holocausts" throughout history 7: 5058:The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust, 3888:http://www.ghwk.de/engl/cateng6a.htm 3093:Michael, I recommend that you read; 2055:Pictures at the "Liberation" section 1531:The Destruction of the European Jews 354:Why cant any one edit this article ? 4906:Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry 4040:Your argument is straight from the 3687:the Jews. It should be included. -- 2773: 2757: 2451:Knowledge:Media copyright questions 2425:Image:Window jump ghetto Warsaw.jpg 1549:and promotes historical revisionism 3131:Maly Trostenets extermination camp 24: 3518:Talk:Treblinka extermination camp 3213:Holocaust as opposed to holocaust 4115:was a notorious SS war criminal. 2951: 2886: 2377:Image:Einsatzgruppen Killing.jpg 619: 537:construction(tyl) formations. -- 29: 4190: 4139: 3870:, p.301 rodall2006@hotmail.com 3516:Holocaust denial discussion at 3120:Template_talk:The_Holocaust#RfC 2445:This is an automated notice by 2664:The victims included European 2538:14:47, 17 September 2008 (UTC) 2524:11:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC) 2494:06:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC) 2472:05:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC) 2440:Image:EnthanasiePropaganda.jpg 2172:14:57, 17 September 2008 (UTC) 2163:21:56, 16 September 2008 (UTC) 1877:article to have credibility.-- 1: 3750:20:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC) 3733:18:18, 31 December 2008 (UTC) 3658:22:04, 21 December 2008 (UTC) 3633:21:14, 21 December 2008 (UTC) 3602:01:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC) 3577:00:32, 16 December 2008 (UTC) 3563:23:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC) 3544:20:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC) 3534:19:42, 15 December 2008 (UTC) 3504:17:47, 30 November 2008 (UTC) 3486:17:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC) 3477:16:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC) 3459:15:40, 30 November 2008 (UTC) 3449:06:05, 30 November 2008 (UTC) 3432:03:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC) 3408:02:39, 29 November 2008 (UTC) 3393:17:51, 28 November 2008 (UTC) 3370:00:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC) 3348:15:44, 25 November 2008 (UTC) 3338:03:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC) 3317:03:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC) 3306:02:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC) 3289:02:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC) 3269:01:09, 25 November 2008 (UTC) 3238:16:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC) 3227:15:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC) 3111:20:12, 25 December 2008 (UTC) 3085:01:37, 25 December 2008 (UTC) 2594:Moon_landing#Hoax_accusations 2455:10:16, 9 September 2008 (UTC) 2347:01:23, 25 December 2008 (UTC) 2323:15:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC) 2307:13:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC) 1718:interested in the anti-Gypsy 829:My. What a well-fed troll. 322:05:16, 26 December 2008 (UTC) 307:17:10, 25 December 2008 (UTC) 292:10:57, 25 December 2008 (UTC) 5039:16:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC) 5025:11:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC) 5010:07:13, 1 February 2009 (UTC) 4995:16:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC) 4966:19:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC) 4937:18:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC) 4923:15:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC) 4893:13:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC) 4877:Auschwitz concentration camp 4866:22:57, 27 January 2009 (UTC) 4837:13:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC) 4819:13:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC) 4805:07:26, 2 February 2009 (UTC) 4788:02:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC) 4772:16:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC) 4758:16:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC) 4742:15:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC) 4728:15:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC) 4697:14:38, 1 February 2009 (UTC) 4683:23:06, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4667:22:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4652:22:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4627:21:36, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4612:21:21, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4558:21:06, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4543:19:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4527:19:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4512:19:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4491:19:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4476:18:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4461:18:33, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4441:17:29, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 4400:11:29, 28 January 2009 (UTC) 4386:06:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC) 4375:07:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC) 4361:06:24, 24 January 2009 (UTC) 4346:05:29, 24 January 2009 (UTC) 4323:11:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4280:10:40, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4239:10:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4225:The article already exists, 4218:04:56, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4198:20:50, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4185:04:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4166:04:25, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4147:03:56, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4134:point since there were also 4129:03:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC) 4085:22:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC) 4068:22:34, 25 January 2009 (UTC) 4054:21:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC) 4032:20:07, 25 January 2009 (UTC) 4017:19:07, 25 January 2009 (UTC) 3998:20:07, 25 January 2009 (UTC) 3982:18:57, 25 January 2009 (UTC) 3960:00:57, 22 January 2009 (UTC) 3942:for the facts cited above). 3927:17:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC) 3900:15:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC) 3206:04:34, 9 November 2008 (UTC) 3179:04:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC) 3154:00:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC) 3127:Jasenovac concentration camp 3065:10:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 3019:03:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 2854:10:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 2840:09:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 2660:19:04, 23 January 2009 (UTC) 2634:07:09, 18 January 2009 (UTC) 2620:01:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC) 2607:23:41, 17 January 2009 (UTC) 2385:requirements for such images 2050:19:12, 23 January 2009 (UTC) 2033:18:55, 23 January 2009 (UTC) 1369:In case anyone doesn't know 135:14:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC) 4113:Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski 3880:22:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC) 3856:08:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC) 3801:11:27, 1 January 2009 (UTC) 3784:07:32, 1 January 2009 (UTC) 3697:19:30, 7 January 2009 (UTC) 3135:Sajmište concentration camp 2974:, discuss the issue on the 2909:, discuss the issue on the 2743: 2729: 2584:23:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC) 2561:20:54, 4 January 2009 (UTC) 2366:12:33, 1 January 2009 (UTC) 2280:15:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC) 2262:14:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC) 2231:14:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC) 2199:11:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC) 2140:14:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC) 2121:14:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC) 2112:14:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC) 2103:09:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC) 2085:13:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 2070:13:42, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 2006:00:01, 27 August 2008 (UTC) 1979:16:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC) 1947:00:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC) 1926:23:37, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 1910:22:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 1887:22:14, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 1872:22:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 1844:21:37, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 1820:18:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 1799:18:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 1771:14:24, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 1745:21:37, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 1713:13:57, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 1685:12:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC) 1653:11:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC) 1632:Righteous Among the Nations 1625:23:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 1607:23:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 1578:23:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 1505:22:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 1475:22:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 1441:19:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 1430:19:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 1405:13:51, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 1391:13:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 1364:11:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 1348:23:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC) 1332:12:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC) 1301:23:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 1277:23:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 1249:23:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 1232:23:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 1215:22:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 1196:22:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 1183:22:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 1161:23:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC) 1136:23:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC) 1115:22:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 1092:17:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 1060:15:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 1037:11:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 1002:08:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 982:00:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 960:00:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC) 941:22:12, 19 August 2008 (UTC) 913:21:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC) 894:21:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC) 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Continued disruption and 757:15:50, 19 August 2008 (UTC) 743:15:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC) 727:15:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC) 707:15:45, 19 August 2008 (UTC) 692:15:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC) 677:15:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC) 642:23:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 608:15:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 591:14:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 574:13:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 547:13:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 530:12:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 513:11:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 486:11:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 470:11:35, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 442:11:18, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 428:03:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 418:01:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 234:would be more appropriate. 5084: 4953:Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials 4517:Thanks for staying honest. 3358:Holocaust (disambiguation) 3009:as in perspective/outlook 2741:, "burnt"), also known as 2235:I've deleted the section. 1458:Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials 1203:inappropriate conversation 1013:Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials 1011:Evidence presented at the 717:issues about the article. 617: 378:08:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC) 349:17:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC) 278:16:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC) 259:Holocaust (disambiguation) 244:12:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC) 5061:Columbia University Press 4710:Baranowska described the 4251:Baranowska described the 4136:Jewish Nazi collaborators 3036:Baranowska described the 2798:regime in Germany led by 773:will result in you being 224:00:25, 20 July 2008 (UTC) 197:20:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC) 188:19:56, 19 July 2008 (UTC) 174:19:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC) 165:19:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC) 155:19:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC) 5065:Encyclopaedia Britannica 4415:http://www.auschwitz.dk/ 3717:Siku Quanshu#Siku Jinshu 2420:File:Pilecki ausch f.jpg 1539:The War Against the Jews 1282:Knowledge is not a forum 658:Please do not modify it. 4716:extraordinary normality 4581:. Sankt-Peterburg 1995 4296:. Sankt-Peterburg 1995 4257:extraordinary normality 3868:The Holocaust Chronicle 3607:Proposal for an infobox 3042:extraordinary normality 2812:Soviet prisoners of war 2678:Soviet prisoners of war 496:. Sankt-Peterburg 1995 423:That's a good point. -- 4712:niezwykla codzieennosc 4253:niezwykla codzieennosc 3038:niezwykla codzieennosc 2435:Image:Holocaust123.JPG 2399:non-free use rationale 388:for more information. 334:Article beautification 263:Shoah (disambiguation) 42:of past discussions. 3840:Literary inquisition 3827:literary inquisition 3767:Nineteen Eighty-Four 2980:create a new article 2972:improve this article 2915:create a new article 2907:improve this article 2897:may not represent a 1221:talk page guidelines 1025:Verdict on Auschwitz 3761:around, advocating 3711:Hi, I have created 2820:handicapped persons 2737:, "completely" and 1663:. My reply is that 5056:Niewyk, Donald L. 4994:Esperantists": --> 4705:Warszawa 1943-1944 4246:Warszawa 1943-1944 3862:Wannsee Conference 3842:, and even on the 3569:Steven J. Anderson 3031:Warszawa 1943-1944 2576:Steven J. Anderson 1932:Warszawa 1943-1944 1722:nor the anti-Slav 299:Steven J. Anderson 18:Talk:The Holocaust 4227:Holocaust victims 3917:comment added by 3906:Catholic Victims? 3780: 3729: 3636: 3619:comment added by 3465:Erich von Däniken 3378:bones and remains 3209: 3192:comment added by 3169:comment added by 3075:comment added by 3008: 3007: 3000: 2982:, as appropriate. 2943: 2942: 2935: 2917:, as appropriate. 2719:(from the Greek 2663: 2646:comment added by 2536: 2480:Holocaust Deniers 2337:comment added by 2305: 2260: 2229: 2004: 1977: 1797: 1711: 1605: 1512: 1511: 1503: 1387: 1383: 1334: 1318:comment added by 1275: 1223:. In particular, 1090: 978: 974: 937: 933: 892: 787: 783: 638: 634: 555:Baltic conscripts 386:Protection policy 380: 364:comment added by 178:I still see it... 103: 102: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 5075: 5068: 5054: 4949:Franciszek Piper 4196: 4194: 4145: 4143: 4106:Walter Krupinski 3929: 3779: 3777: 3772: 3728: 3726: 3721: 3655: 3650: 3645: 3635: 3613: 3352:You asked about 3208: 3186: 3181: 3151: 3146: 3141: 3087: 3003: 2996: 2992: 2989: 2983: 2955: 2954: 2947: 2938: 2931: 2927: 2924: 2918: 2890: 2889: 2882: 2808:Soviet civilians 2776: 2775: 2760: 2759: 2749: 2732: 2726: 2674:Soviet civilians 2662: 2640: 2613:Holocaust denial 2532: 2501:Holocaust denial 2397:That there is a 2355: 2349: 2302: 2296: 2291: 2288: 2257: 2251: 2246: 2243: 2226: 2220: 2215: 2212: 2161: 2157: 2150: 2001: 1995: 1990: 1987: 1974: 1968: 1963: 1960: 1906: 1900: 1840: 1834: 1794: 1788: 1783: 1780: 1741: 1735: 1708: 1702: 1697: 1694: 1649: 1643: 1602: 1596: 1591: 1588: 1515:Proposed Changes 1500: 1494: 1489: 1486: 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3219:Statesboropow 3212: 3210: 3207: 3203: 3199: 3195: 3191: 3182: 3180: 3176: 3172: 3171:81.129.241.64 3168: 3158: 3156: 3155: 3152: 3147: 3142: 3136: 3132: 3128: 3121: 3118: 3112: 3108: 3104: 3100: 3099:Israel Gutman 3096: 3092: 3091: 3090: 3089: 3088: 3086: 3082: 3078: 3074: 3067: 3066: 3062: 3058: 3043: 3040:, in English 3039: 3034: 3032: 3020: 3016: 3012: 3002: 2999: 2991: 2988:December 2010 2981: 2977: 2973: 2967: 2965: 2958: 2949: 2948: 2945: 2937: 2934: 2926: 2923:December 2010 2916: 2912: 2908: 2902: 2900: 2893: 2884: 2883: 2880: 2878:See this tag: 2877: 2874: 2870: 2865: 2864: 2863: 2862: 2861: 2860: 2855: 2851: 2847: 2843: 2841: 2837: 2833: 2829: 2825: 2821: 2817: 2813: 2809: 2805: 2801: 2797: 2793: 2789: 2785: 2781: 2777: 2769: 2765: 2761: 2753: 2748: 2747: 2740: 2736: 2731: 2724: 2718: 2717:The Holocaust 2715: 2714: 2712: 2695: 2691: 2687: 2683: 2679: 2675: 2671: 2667: 2661: 2657: 2653: 2649: 2645: 2639:just lying. 2637: 2636: 2635: 2631: 2627: 2623: 2622: 2621: 2618: 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