Category talk:Anti-abortion violence

3184:

They even use such language-- "Antiabortion terrorism in the United States..." (Bryant), &c. What they are saying is that the anti-abortion terrorists that they are investigating turn out to be Christian in nature, not that anti-abortion terrorism is necessarily Christian in nature. The closest you are getting here is the Flint source, but even that seems to be misreading his thesis, and Bryant is not making any such defining claims beyond the specific cases he's investigated (i.e., those in the United States in recent decades). All of the sources you're discussing do clearly indicate that these are examples of religious terrorism, and that they are specifically Christian terrorists who are conducting these acts, but they are not providing any support to the idea that anti-abortion terrorism is by necessity Christian. This is exactly the difference between a defining and incidental characteristic, and this is exactly the disctinction between categorization guidelines and article content guidelines that I have been stating here. It is simply not enough to point out that all the extent cases fit within this category, though this knowledge is certainly enough to cross-list all of those examples in both categories, because categorization is based on defining characteristics and not coincidental ones. It is significant that a hypothetical Muslim or Jewish extremist, schools of thought in both being highly resistant to abortion and prone to violence, could well bomb abortion clinics in terms of categorization, and

3386:. I've made this point numerous times now, so I'm not going to repeat myself further beyond this post. It seems to me that the reason we are even having this conversation is that there has been such a very small amount of clearly anti-abortion violence in history to look at, which would just be sampling bias; as I mentioned, the fact that abortion is simply illegal in most (I believe all, actually) Muslim countries is the main reason we don't see any Muslim anti-abortion acts of terrorism. One could, however, make a strong (though OR) case that many of the Islamic extremist attacks on Western targets have been anti-abortion as well, though they are not characterized as such since they are anti- so many other things at the same time. Ultra-orthodox Jewish organizations frequently characterize abortion as genocide, and many Hindu extremists claim that abortion is murder. The difference is that abortion is actually legal and relatively easily available in the United States, and not clouded by other more pressing issues. One could, on this basis, also make the same sort of misguided case you are making vis-a-vis Christianity applied to anti-abortion violence being American in nature. You may note, at the very top of this discussion, I came in from the RfC page with a question, which is: what do we actually gain by this categorization? I think the answer is basically nothing, since it's just as possible to have each article in 517:, with supporters of subcating arguing that there are reliable sources which see a relationship between the two categories, and even if Anti-abortion violence is not quite a full subset of Christian terrorism there is enough relationship for a non-diffusing subcat. Opposers are saying there is not enough of a relationship because Anti-abortion violence can be motivated for non-Christian reasons. Points are strongly made on both sides, and while the supporters' argument that there is a relationship appears valid, it is firmly contested and does not have consensus. Because the majority view is against the subcating, if supporters wish to pursue the matter they would need to gain consensus through further discussion. The situation as it stands now is that there is no consensus for subcating. 565:? Editors supporting the use of the category argue that the many sources cited in the article as well as others not cited (which recognize anti-abortion terrorism as a form of Christian terrorism, observe that both the movement in general and specific perpetrators were motivated by their interpretation of Christian beliefs, etc.), and the absence of sources to the contrary, justify the use of the category. Editors opposing the use of the category say that anti-abortion terrorism is single-issue terrorism and is not motivated by Christianity, but rather by politics, and that those scholars who believe it is Christian terrorism are in the minority. This was previously discussed at NPOVN, but there is a disagreement over what the result there was; certainly there is no 3017:

religious leader of any kind. The reason this case is different from your examples, and the reason it is "so very important" to hold off on this is that it would require only a single intrusion into the subcategory to invalidate the categorization, though the generalization can be made in the article itself even with several such intrusions (e.g., "All/almost all/most known anti-abortion terrorists have been fundamentalist Christians"). Categorization would still be guided by what the sources say-- it would not, in fact, be going against that to not subcategorize anti-abortion violence under Christian terrorism in the same that sense placing anti-abortion violence in an unrelated category like

3364:: they write that American anti-abortion sentiment is specifically based on interpretations of Biblical law and historical Christian theology. The authors write that Americans are hard-pressed to accept that Christianity is the root of this violence, they write about media coverage, "Then, still unable to accept the fact that an allegedly Christian political movement had turned deadly, they began to focus on the pathology of individual fanatics. Repeatedly we were told that the killings were 'isolated incidents'..." The authors continue proving that American anti-abortion terrorism is Christian extremism. 3505:, because the Aryan Nations are Christian organizations by definition this follows the same logic as the hypothetical Catholic terrorism cat. There is nothing inherently Christian about anti-abortion terrorism-- it just so happens that the examples that we have in the sources are all conducted by Christians. I am not at all trying to prove that anti-abortion terrorism is commonly, or at all, conducted by non-Christians. I am pointing out that just because that's the way it has happened so far (as far as we know) does not mean that this is a defining characteristic. 357: 339: 747:- I've found a few reliable sources that characterize much anti-abortion violence as Christian in nature. In addition, looking at material describing some prominant anti-abortion/pro-life activists, it appears (just making a superficial summary) that many are strongly motivated by Christian ideals. Based on those two factors, it seems clear that the sub-categorization is appropriate. Bear in mind that WP does not have fantastic indexing systems: Categories are about all it has. So, users rely heavily on categories to find articles that 367: 3216:

within B, but in terms of the inherent characteristics of A placing it by necessity in B. This is not at all satisified here, and no amount of case studies (even if it applied to all known cases) can make that point, and this is why the hypothetical suggestions of non-Christian anti-abortion violence are actually important. The fact that they can exist, and that the reason they don't exist is most likely also due to happenstance (e.g., abortion is illegal in Muslim countries) make this an illogical categorization.

3231:(page 22) Likewise, Juergensmeyer describes killer Paul Hill as driven by extreme interpretations of Christian dogma. Randall Terry is shown to be motivated by Christian extremism... All of the anti-abortion violence is defined as Christian extremism. Your assertion that Juergensmeyer does not "claim that there is something inherently Christian in nature about anti-abortion violence in general" is not correct. He absolutely does claim an overarching strain of Christian extremism in all anti-abortion violence. 1653:

There is much else to add to the category over the last 1500 years or so. The prejudicial nature of the category-- as it is used at present is shown by its concentration upon the last 50 of them: there's nothing older than the KKK, not even the Crusades. I could use much stronger terms than prejudicial, but there's no need to do so; I in any case do not mean an implication about the motives of any particular editor, whom i will suppose charitably to be confused.

2891:-- this is not true. If sources cannot be found, it cannot be said to simply not exist, as this is OR (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence); the only conclusion we can draw is that there is no evidence for it at present. The categorization that is being suggested would make the stronger claim, which is inappropriate, whereas not categorizing it this way would not be making any crystal ball predictions at all, contrary to what has been suggested. 2458:

variation of overall crime or overall violence against abortion providers." In terms of Christian extremism, however, they seem to have looked only at "traditional fundamentalist religious culture" as observed in a geographic region rather than in individuals "who travel from place to place", so they admit a gap in the study. They allow for freely moving individuals who are Christian extremists and who carry out the most extreme anti-abortion violence.

207: 189: 3897:), which clearly signifies that the violence comes not exclusively from fundamentalist Christians. Note and underline, please, the word "primarily." The rest is trifle. The requested information abt fundamentalists of other religions violently suppressing women's rights over their own body is trivially available on the web. But this is not needed when your own sources indicate how the respective sets meet. My proposal stands on firm ground. - 3330:

sources put forward, at least to the extent that they've been explained, do not do this but rather detail the specifics of anti-abortion violence as it happens to exist in the United States right now. This has also been my position all along, and I maintain that the misunderstanding here seems to be about the difference between guidelines for inclusion of article content and the guidelines for subcategorization.

22: 4005:: anti-abortion violence is primarily connected to views on abortion, not necessary religious at all. Though Christianity plays a major role in European and American occurrences of this phenomena, it is prohibited by many religions and happens in the countries with insignificant Christian population. At the same time, the sub-category applies the relation in form of membership, which is not true, AFAIK. — 71: 53: 1876: 139: 121: 1615:

follow such an attack. It can certainly mention the fact that the authors say this in the article, but actually putting the article in the category is point of view pushing by categories. The vast majority of Christian people would denounce anti-abortion violence, even if they have an anti abortion viewpoint, but we don't add a category to say denounced by Christianity either.

275: 257: 1549:(since discussion has reopened). Knowledge (XXG) content is driven by what reliable sources say. Noleander has presented a list of sources above that state that anti-abortion violence is a form of Christian terrorism. This is not about POV pushing, this is about reliable sources. As for the objection that not all such violence is Christian in nature, 874:

intrinsic subcategory by definition, but it is only by a point of view (possibly of the source authors listed). What happens if subcats with a shift in meaning are added is that the cateogories become skewed so that the lower level category does not belong to the categories higher up in the tree. Putting it in the proposed cat will then include it in

285: 1677:(see sources currently in the article as well as additional sources cited by Noleander). It isn't synth based on the motivations of individuals (although all or most of the individuals can also be cited as motivated by their interpretation of Christianity). Now that this has been cleared up for you, is your opinion on the matter different? – 2107: 1673:- to put it another way, if you think the category is bad because it leaves out some incidents of Christian terrorism, improve it, don't make it worse by leaving out even more instances of Christian terrorism. Addressing the rest of your comment, the "categorize" argument has rested and continues to rest on the fact that 2123: 3104:

anti-abortion violence in the US is motivated by Christianity. These are not at all the same claims as saying that anti-abortion violence is defined by being Christian. As I said before, it's important here not to conflate the guidelines for article content with those for categorization. I imagine that many or even

1026:

referred to as anti-abortion terrorism. (I don't know if there's a history of a title debate here where perhaps some users didn't want it to be called "terrorism," but I very much doubt that anyone ever intended it to encompass government actions.) It wouldn't be right to make decisions based on the existence of a

1973:, Al-Zaytouna Centre. Regarding the rise of Christian terrorism starting from Randall Terry in the 1980s: "During the last 30 years Christian fundamentalists opposed to abortion have used force, violence and terrorism... These extremists are ideologically indoctrinated to take the movement as a Biblical mission." 2691:- One of the reasons cited for objecting to the proposed categorization is that it carries an inaccurate implication: that all anti-abortion violence is related to Christianity. But subcategories are not intended to be interpreted that way. Categories are simply an indexing system that helps readers find 3862:

Can you provide any sources that back up these claims of anti-abortion violence by Hindus and Muslims? As for the claims that legal punishment for abortion is the same thing as anti-abortion violence, I addressed that idea above - there is exactly zero chance that the article will ever conflate legal

3675:

There haven't been threats of violence, in my reading of that article. 'They have warned the organisers that they are at risk of reprisals' is a simple warning. If I tell a drunk 'be tactful in what you say or you might get in a fight with someone', I'm not threatening him, I'm simply warning him. In

3260:

Juergensmeyer is not going to satisfy your request for one succinct quote which captures the whole picture. Juergensmeyer instead requires a full reading of his work after which normal reading comprehension will answer the question: is there anti-abortion violence in the USA which is not motivated by

3183:

believe it the same way that I decline to believe that any book or source I'm not familiar with makes any claim. It does not mean I am somehow unwilling to believe it. 4. The quotes you are presenting are doing exactly what I said they are doing-- they are describing the existing cases exclusively.

2591:

Scholarship isn't required to create reasonable categories. Common sense plays a real role. Are you seriously claiming that all notable abortion-related violence is Christian terrorism? If so, please see/address the RSes above. If not, could you please explain why it makes sense to list something

2483:

pretty much per DGG (this is an update of my !vote from before, now struck, above). There are lots of problems. Not all anti-abortion violence is terrorism and not all anti-abortion violence is Christian based. The majority? Quite likely, but I'm not certain of that if we include abortion-related

2193:

categorization has been made abundantly clear in many venues on Knowledge (XXG). Including categories of "criminals" , "religion categories", and so on. And making something which is intrisically not entirely with a supercategory into a subcategory is extraordinarily ill-advised no matter what the

1137:

I'd like to limit myself to commenting here on the specific RFC question, and my "no" stands for the reasons explained. Additionally, there is a longstanding effort by pro-choice advocates to portray all pro-life advocacy as an attempt to impose Christian religious beliefs on pregnant women, whereas

3831:. The reasoning is straightforward: Anti-abortion violence does not stem exclusively from Christian fundamentalism. There are governments and various religious leaders who espouse and support anti-abortion terrorism, whether these actions are legitimate in that country (i.e. mandated by law, e.g. in 3660:

This is another conflation of categorization and content guidelines. This link demonstrates that there have been threats of violence against abortion activists in Pakistan; it isn't even necessary to post it, but I had hoped it might make you reconsider the position you are putting forward since it

3542:

There's a difference between lay persons saying 'no way, that can't be true' and scholars saying 'yes, it is true even though lay persons do not admit it'. The latter case is what I was pointing to. I know that Knowledge (XXG)'s sourcing policy favors the scholarly view even when it goes against the

3527:

Note to closing administrator. Putting aside whether the description of the debate in the sources is accurate, reread the last sentence of Binksternet's 11/11/11 16:46 comment and note that it wishes you and Knowledge (XXG) to take a side in what the comment describes as an active disagreement about

2738:

First, no one is telling you to hide anything; you put relevant, reliably sourced information in the articles. Second, IMO you misread category instructions. ALL anti-abortion violence must be "defined" by Christian terrorism to fit in the Christian terrorism category; that other catagory pages are

2610:

trumps reliable sources" is not exactly helping dispel the impression that "don't categorize" voters are motivated by politics rather than policy. By all means, if you find sources showing that a significant minority of anti-abortion violence is motivated by something other than Christianity, we can

2534:

You may note I've actually provided RSes for my claims. Are you arguing that A) these things aren't abortion-related violence, B) don't matter because we currently lack articles on those topics or C) something else? It looks like "B", which seems to be a fairly weak argument especially considering

2117:

of factors (including a religious belief that life begins at conception). The "Anti-Saloon League" and "WCTU" were similarly "Christian" but as the groups opposing them were also primarily Christian (just as a large part of the pro-abortion movement is Christian) it would be silly to link them as

3295:

Christian. I've provided more quotes, but I really don't know why I bother, because you're going to come up with another special standard to justify keeping it out of the category. Perhaps your next argument will be that the authors don't say that the perpetrators' interpretation of Christianity is

3245:

Then you will have to show where he makes that claim, because none of the quotes you have presented, nor the text that I read, does so. What he is doing is delving into the particular motivations of the individuals in question and identifying a common thread of Christian extremism. As I mentioned

3215:

wikipedia would somehow be denying the Christian nature of the anti-abortion violence that is detailed in the articles within that category; this is simply not the case. Subcategorization implies that A is a definite subset of B, not just in terms of the existing instantiations of A all being also

2874:

After reading over the arguments, I have to agree that this categorization is inappropriate. The fundamental problem I see is a conflation of rules for article content and for categorization. It certainly would be relevant to note in the article what the sources say re: the overwhelming Christian

2817:

First no relaible source says what you claim and second, since everyone here agrees that not all anti-abortion violence is Chirstian Terrorism (although you seem to be going back and forth), there is little basis in the consensus of editors to catagorize it as such. It would be plainly illogical to

2633:

all anti-abortion violence in the USA is motivated by extremist Christian beliefs, all but perhaps a few exceptions that nobody can actually name. Your simple assertion "when it isn't" is not found in the reliable sources, all of which say that Christian extremism is the driver behind anti-abortion

2261:

Okay, that's very sad, but it's also still irrelevant, because the sources you linked don't indicate that the violence has anything to do with forced abortions (nor, even if they did, could we possibly say that opposition to forced abortion was equivalent to opposition to abortion). It's really not

2105:

peculiar to Christianity, nor are all cases of anti-abortion violaence connected to Christianity, and enough cases exist where the violaence is connected to other religions and beliefs that connecting the entire topic to one religion is contrary to common sense, and absolutely contrary to Knowledge

1647:

extremely prejudicial POV categorization. As Orange Mike said above , "Primarily is not the same as exclusively" It's a very frequent issue in the US at present, but there is no necessary connection. There are no reliable sources for that, merely individual examples. I have considerable doubt over

1403:

I assume this is also a title change proposal for the article? They should match. Since my exchange with AYW, I've done a bit of looking back in the page history, and IIRC it was never called "anti-abortion terrorism" - it was moved from "pro-life terrorism" to "anti-abortion violence" - so I don't

1258:

I don't think that's a good idea. It's applying our own interpretation to the material - sources don't say that "there is Christianity-influenced anti-abortion violence and other anti-abortion violence," they say that anti-abortion violence is motivated by an interpretation of Christianity and that

3230:

Mark Juergensmeyer does not discuss any anti-abortion violence that is not based on Christian extremism. All of it is Christian. He says, for instance, that Christian extremism drove Michael Bray and his followers to launch "anti-abortion crusades" combining with "like-minded Christian activists."

2943:

be happening right now. Casting this category is different from making a sourced assertion in an article-- for starters, there is not generally a list of references in a category description, and on top of that the categorization is a blanket generalization, rather than a explained ande justified

2295:

It's an intellectual straight jacket, which is over and under inclusive, as Collect notes, and as the proposers and sources admit: it's not a subcategory in all its manifestations. There is anti-abortion violence motivated by things other than a particular religious viewpoint, or that has a mixed

1118:

Both of these things would be interesting, but they're not within the scope of the article, which is really anti-abortion terrorism in spite of the name. The title shouldn't dictate the content; the sources should dictate both the title and the content. Would you agree with a move, following which

873:

It does not matter how many sources there are as we are not trying to prove a content statement. The policy for categories goes beyond verifiability and usefulness. Instead it has to address the issue of the subcategory being a narrower subject heading of the category. In this case it is not an

3488:

Obviously, you don't understand the problem here, so despite my previous claim I'll try one more time. Categories are not articles, and subcategorization is based on the defining characteristics of the subcategory being within the supercategory. Some logical examples of subcategories that could

3174:

1. This is an RfC, you can't expect everyone who comes to comment to spend 20+ hours to research the sources primarily because most of us have jobs and other work to do for wikipedia already as well. Knowledge (XXG) doesn't pay my salary, or anyone's. 2. You should, moreover, be expecting this

2330:

No reliable source only describes it as Christian Terrorism. If you can produce even one, do so. Whereas, any thinking person knows there is a multiplicity of causes, such as those described in, "Politics, culture, and political crime: Covariates of abortion clinic attacks in the United States"

1614:

The point is that this kind of violence is not Christian, and Christian teaching opposes such terrorism or violence. Various authors may well be doing some point of view pushing to label such criminal acts as Christian by associating Christianity with terrorism. Knowledge (XXG) does not have to

1438:

is a militiaman, an extremist, and a murderer of an abortion doctor, but only tangentially a member of a Christian movement. There are many possible reasons to oppose abortion, and many possible reasons to murder, and only one of them is being part of a lunatic Christian-based organization. (As a

1176:

The subcategory under discussion in the RFC question does not include "terrorism" and I am not commenting about "terrorism", except to say that "violence" is a much broader term than "terrorism" (and a vastly broader term than "Christian terrorism"). Broader things should not be subcategories of

721:

incidents or perpetrators in the category as being Christian and as being motivated by their interpretation of Christianity, in addition to classing the general movement as an outgrowth of the Christian right and a form of Christian terrorism, so your concern would seem to be assuaged. If there's

4108:

states "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources"; it doesn't state that an editor's personal disagreement with something overrides what reliable

3329:

I'm not looking for one succint quote so much as one quote, or, in reality, many because just one source is not usually sufficient, that actually makes the distinction that needs to be made, i.e., that being Christian in nature is an defining characteristic of anti-abortion violence. All of the

2875:

fundamentalist nature of current anti-abortion violence, but the categorization is not so determined. As noted by Hobit, common sense does play a real role here, since categorization is about the logical sorting of topics and is not locked to the current "real-world" instantiation of the topic (

1652:

If it is done because abortion is regarded as a more generalized moral outrage, it is not in this category, As the WP article on Christian terrorism correctly says "Christian terrorism comprises terrorist acts by groups or individuals who claim Christian motivations or goals for their actions"

1096:

If the main article's title remains "anti-abortion violence" then it ought to include coverage of violence by governments. Alternatively, we could put a hatnote at the top of the article telling people where to go for that information, but I don't think a hatnote would affect the categorization

682:

when we make a move like this which pre-supposes that we can classify the motivations of every perpetrator. For all we know, some of them may be atheists, deists, agnostics, etc. Especially remember that this is a global project, and for all I know there may be equally violent Hindu or Muslim or

3455:

So, basically, Bryant, who specifically notes that he is talking about anti-abortion violence in the United States, isn't even talking about all the known examples of anti-abortion violence as you claimed? Additionally, you must realize that you are asking others to prove a negative. I'll not

3206:

So I just looked into Mr. Jurgensmeyer's book, or at least the sections on anti-abortion terrorists Bray, Rudolph, and Hill, and it certainly doesn't seem like he's making any such claim. He is, however, investigating several cases of Christian terrorism, including anti-abortion terrorists and

4062:

How about, oh, I don't know, the many cited sources that describe it as Christian terrorism? You yourself stated that we need to take the phenomenon as a whole, rather than individual participants, so why does that fly out the window when you want to claim that a source should describe all the

3911:

That would be a valid rebuttal if the category were "fundamentalist Christian terrorism," rather than "Christian terrorism." If you read the rest of the book, it is clear that Hoffman does not use "fundamentalist Christian" as a synonym for "Christian," so I don't know why you're assuming that

3168:

I'll tell you now that "I refuse to believe a book makes this claim, because I haven't bothered to look at the book" is not going to win you any arguments, but: Bryant, "Antiabortion terrorism in the United States, in which fundamentalist Christian terrorists, acting without conventional moral

2796:

how sources define it. I think Eldamorie was gently guiding you towards the part of WP:SUBCAT which says "When making one category a subcategory of another, ensure that the members of the first really can be expected (with possibly a few exceptions) to belong to the second also," ie. since the

1770:

which I have presented to you before, explains how terrorism is normally categorized. "Six basic types of political inspired terrorism recognized: nationalist, religious, state-sponsored, left wing, right wing, and anarchist.... Religious terrorism is the use of violence to further divinely

1025:

Ah, I see your point now - it's very interesting - but it's not consistent with the topic as Knowledge (XXG) defines it. The scope of the article doesn't currently include government action against abortion, but rather actions by groups and individuals acting outside the law, what is commonly

3016:

a Christian religious leader and not, say, a Jew, in a way that categorically and universally true; even if he were to convert, he would still have been a Christian religious leader and would still belong in that category, just as would be the case if he were to die and cease being a present

2457:

Joshua D. Freilich and William Alex Pridemore, in the abstract of their paper "Politics, culture, and political crime: Covariates of abortion clinic attacks in the United States", state plainly that a handful of factors they studied were not "significantly associated with the cross-sectional

2044:, Pluto Press. "However, in the West, we tend not to use the term 'Christian terrorism', despite its applicability, for example, to the Christians who have carried out an armed campaign against abortion clinics in the United States in recent years." Rai is saying that anti-abortion terrorism 3355:

makes the point, singling out anti-abortion violence as Christian terrorism. Aref M. Al-Khattar makes the point, writing about the USA: "Many Christian organizations rely on their special interpretation of the Bible in committing violent (terrorist) acts. These include anti-Semitic attacks,

3314:

I think many objectors including me made this same point all along. At any rate, the closing admin can read all that for her or himself. As to the interpretation of Christianity, that doesn't sound like an argument I would make. I would be open to putting Category:Christian Terrorism, in

1553:

does allow for some exceptions. Reliable sources overwhelmingly characterize this as a Christian phenomenon, it would be dishonest not to draw this out. In fact, not to reflect reliable sources in the categorization to avoid the appearance of POV pushing is, effectively, POV pushing itself.

3175:

argument since the burden of proof lies on you (the party making the assertion), not on those who are skeptical; it is you who is not going to convince anyone without properly referencing or elucidating the sources that you claim support your position. 3. I don't "refuse" to believe it, I

3103:

The problem with that is that the sources listed in this discussion don't actually seem to make that claim-- that is, that anti-abortion violence is inherently Christian. Several are arguing that such violence is terrorism and not just random violence, and others point out that the recent

3930:

I know of no religion-inspired terrorism but the fundamentalist kind. When we are referring to Islamic terrorism, for example, we are referring, by default, to Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. There is no anti-abortion violence perpetrated by Christians who are non-fundamentalist.

2234:. So it is, in fact, quite relevant. The result in Tibet was the waiving of fines in most of those areas where Tibetans control policy now. Cheers - it is wonderful when the other editor makes the point needed. Infant mortality for "indigenous Tibetans" is on the order of 13%. 609:

Users interested in learning about the various manifestations of religious terrorism will find articles having to do with anti-abortion violence in the appropriate category, while users interested in anti-abortion violence would have an easy way of navigating to related material.

1832:

that this is biased is irrelevant to the decision-making process. If there are scholars out there stating that anti-abortion violence isn't a form of Christian terrorism, by all means bring them forward for evidence, so they can be weighed against the scholars stating that it

4047:

Yes, there is a reason: I've seen no reliable source claiming that anti-abortion violence is conducted only be Christians, and thus these reliable sources are not actually sources for this discussion. I would appreciate, if You draw any example, that would prove I'm wrong. —

3501:, and the like. For the former, because Christian terrorism in the United States is inherently Christian, and the latter because Catholics are Christians, and therefore Catholic terrorism would inherently be Christian terrorism. An example from what's in the cat already is 3207:

identifying their motivations as most certainly Christian. He does not, however, seem to claim that there is something inherently Christian in nature about anit-abortion violence in general. I get the impression that some editors seem to believe that by not subcategorizing

2331:

Journal of Criminal Justice Volume 35, Issue 3, May-June 2007, Pages 323-336 ("some crimes against clinics are more likely in areas where female empowerment is weaker, female victimization is more tolerated, and the anti-abortion movement has failed to reduce abortions")

1434:, and for good reason. It is as impossible to exclusively link Christians and anti-abortion violence as it is to link suicide bombing and Muslims; just because one is primarily perpetrated by the other is not a statement that others cannot join in the act. For example, 2122:, primarily going to be a "Christian" issue. Pro and anti slavery groups in the 19th century were pretty much equally "Christian." Just as I would oppose "anti-woman violence" being categorized under any religion, I think this use of subcategorization is wrong. 3030:

characteristic of it because of our limited set of examples. It is quite logical, and even expected, that this set would include any number of non-Christian members and incidents since there is nothing inherently Christian about anti-abortionism or terrorism.

2156:

3. The point that the pro-choice movement contains many Christians is true but completely irrelevant. Islamic terrorism is frequently committed against Muslims, that has never affected how we categorize it, because we categorize based on the motivations of the

3021:

would be counterfactual since there is nothing counterfactual about maintaining a possible and not at all implausible distinction by simply not making an assertion. The other problem is the defining characteristics, and Christianity is not necessarily a

1119:

these other subjects could be discussed elsewhere if someone chose to write about them? (I don't know if domestic violence related to abortion would necessitate its own article, but it could be discussed in one of the articles on domestic violence.) –

3847:

fundamentalists inciting acolytes to anti-abortion violence). At the same time, Christian terrorism takes many forms and is certainly not confined exclusively to anti-abortion violent acts. Hence, we should have the two articles crossing each other.

1856:. A great many reliable and scholarly sources describe anti-abortion bombings and killings as Christian terrorism or terrorism driven by Christian extremism. Below I will list the sources I can find quickly online. I'm sure there are more than this. 3931:

Non-fundamentalists do not have any motivation to act violently and commit terrorist acts, in any religion, because, by definition, the dictats of their religion (including the anti-abortion dictats) are not fundamental to their way of life. -

3360:. Professor Muhammad Arif Zakaullah makes the point that Christian fundamenalists make up the Christian terrorists who use violence against abortion providers. Patricia Baird-Windle and Eleanor J. Bader make the point in their scholarly book 3275:

Right, because abortion violence is not the subject of his book. For Knowledge (XXG), we need a direct source (a direct quote), not various editors interpretations of someone's work, where the author does not explicitly say something.

2022:, Simon and Schuster. "And most ominously, the fringe groups of the Christian Right believe they have been mandated by God to carry out Christian terrorism, anointed to murder doctors who perform abortions and godless Muslims in Iraq." 2832:

And when an atheist bombs an abortion clinic and the dozens of sources that call it Christian terrorism subsequently revise their views, you can get back to me then. Or, to put it another way, it would be silly to avoid categorizing

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Is it your view that the main article should, or ever will, cover government action against abortion? Because there's always the possibility that there will one day be articles on male characters created in Botswana, but I see

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too much to ask that talk page discussion be relevant - do you have anything to say that's actually about anti-abortion violence? Because I'm sure there are many internet forums where you can display your expertise on Tibet. –

1923:, Sussex Academic Press. "Abortion clinic bombings and murders, the 'Christian' terrorism of Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma, and a multitude of varying forms of Christian assault, are in no sense dissimilar to Islamic terrorism." 2334:

On the contrary, Noleander and I have cited a large number of sources that describe it as Christian terrorism (and your source doesn't contradict this at all). Take off the blinders and actually look at what the sources say.

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I've asked you to prove this, and I'll ask it again. Where is this "most"? It's all very well to wave your hands about and claim that there are hundreds of sources that support your opinion, but if you can't even produce

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demonstrates that the evidence you are leaning on (i.e., all examples of anti-abortion violence being Christian in nature) is itself quite flimsy, in addition to not even being appropriate to the standard in question.

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says "When making one category a subcategory of another, ensure that the members of the first really can be expected (with possibly a few exceptions) to belong to the second also" - sources classify all or nearly all

2778:"A central concept used in categorisation is that of the defining characteristics of a subject." For the present proposal, this would have to be true: 'All anti-abortion violence is defined as Chirstian terrorism.' 3641:

That story has already been linked, and my reply now is the same as it was the first time: if it's not violence, it doesn't belong in our article on anti-abortion violence and we cannot make judgments based on it.

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Well, I wouldn't support making "Fictional characters created in Botswana" a subcategory of "Female fictional characters" merely because Knowledge (XXG) has not yet covered any male fictional characters created in

2909:"there is no non-Christian anti-abortion violence" without a source, but it's original research/CRYSTAL to say that we can't apply this completely valid (per a whole lot of sources) categorization because of what 2374:

Christian? Source after source after source describes it as Christian without naming other motivations. We write based on what reliable sources say; we don't make up our own personal standards based on what they

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D), things that aren't violence or that aren't directed against abortion cannot possibly be described as anti-abortion violence. What is this imaginary "abortion-related violence" article you keep referring to?

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participants as Christian? Is the answer to that question "because sources describe the phenomenon in general as Christian and I need to find a new excuse to avoid categorizing this according to the sources"? –

2083:, Psychology Press. In a section about religious justification for terrorism, Christian extremists are described as using terror tactics against abortion providers. Singled out as an example is the Army of God. 1301:

does not have a section discussing the relationship between Christianity and anti-abortion violence. The sources listed above indicate that there is sufficient information for a section on that relationship.

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You have cited no sources that describes it as only Christian Terrorism. Just give me one quote that says that is its only cause. Whereas, the source I provided notes a multiplicity of other potentialcauses.

3956:, as it is possible for anti-abortion violence to be committed by non-Christians. If committed by Christians, then the Christian category can be added. Simple solution; I don't see why there's so much fuss. 3290:

Sources were provided at the very beginning in which all these authors referred to anti-abortion violence as Christian terrorism. Now you claim that that's not enough and that the authors have to say it is

2577:. Please make sure to check arguments for reliable sources that back up the argument, and discount those that do not. Too many arguments here are hypothetical, lacking a sound basis in current scholarship. 1621:"We should ignore the reliable sources that call it Christian terrorism, because it doesn't accord with my interpretation of Christian doctrine" is pretty much the opposite of a policy-based argument. – 440:

You missed Binksternet and Blueboar, and you also counted aprock on the opposite side. This completely aside from the fact that no one interested in keeping it off has even attempted to cite a source. –

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It has been reasonably argued that there are plenty of examples of violence related to abortion that has no religious basis (by boyfriends and perhaps governments). But it has also been argued that

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The fact that they happen to be coincident is not defining. Just all creatures with vertebrae all have kidneys as well, but being a rhenate is a not a defining characteristic of being a chordate.

3368:, Loretta Hall, Anan Ameri, and Bridget K. Hall all make the same point, that Westerners are unable to admit that Christian extremism is the root of all anti-abortion terrorism, though it is. 2427:

motivated by Christianity, while on the other hand, those supporting categorization have provided a large number of sources about how it is motivated by Christianity, making your point moot. –

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2. The source that you claim illustrates a multitude of motivations for anti-abortion violence...doesn't actually mention anti-abortion violence, far from proving any of your points about it.

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Aubrey doesn't mention anti-abortion violence at all, so claiming that he says it isn't Christian terrorism can charitably be described as bizarre. Don't cite a Google search, please provide

2059:, McGraw-Hill/Dushkin, page 161. "...Christian terrorism of the various American militia movements, Christian paramilitary groups and anti-abortion activists..." (Political science textbook) 1177:

narrower things, no matter how much it might serve a POV. I've given my opinion, based on policy, and have explained how my rationale applies equally to non-abortion categories. Cheerio.

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Another thing that should be covered in the main article is violence by husbands and boyfriends in response to abortion; that was part of the rationale for the Supreme Court's decision in

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None of the quotes that have been pulled out make this assertion, can you be more specific (e.g., page #)? I'm afraid a whole book is a bit TLDR for me to read for just a wikipedia RfC.

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any case, I agree with Roscelese that a warning that reprisals might happen (or indeed even a threat of reprisal) is not violence until it manifests and can't be characterised as such.

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Again, describing all the existing cases of anti-abortion violence in the United States as Christian is not at all the same as defining anti-abortion violence as inherently Christian.

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overwhelming majority of this is Christian terrorism, the category is still appropriate even if one or two exceptions are found (which, however, no one has yet managed to do anyway). –

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states that the Chinese government feels the penalties are not severe enough for having extra children. Is the point clearer now? To a Buddhist, abortions are a religious violation (

950:, if reliable sources consistently describe anti-abortion violence as being related to an interpretation of Christianity and there are few or no reliable sources to the contrary, then 4207: 3356:

anti-abortion acts, and violent anti-black movements." Jennifer Jefferis makes the point, connecting all American anto-abortion terrorism to Christian extremism stemming from 1981's

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If non-Christian anti-abortion terrorists aren't mentioned in any sources, why are we required to refrain from applying a label that many sources have applied on the basis that they

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commanded purposes, often targeting broad categories of foes to bring sweeping changes". Or search Google books for abortion+terrorism and check out how it is normally categorized.

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domestic assault in there. And is a forced abortion abortion-related violence? I'd have to say yes. And that certainly isn't Christian terrorism but appears to be fairly common

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The discussion at NPOV yielded 2 arguments favoring Christian terrorism from Ros & Ian, and 4 arguments against from aprocl, Collect, TFD and Haymaker. Consensus is clear. –

2516:" and "a completely hypothetical article that will never exist wouldn't belong in the category, so this article doesn't belong in the category either" are ludicrous arguments. – 4217: 3430: 1936:: "Sullivan also acknowledges Christian terrorism in the United States—noting specifically violence around abortion clinics and the killing of doctors who perform abortions..." 1588: 1463: 843:

the association, but if the reliable sources are making that association then WP needs to follow the sources. If there are sources (and there probably are) that present the

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about why people do or should commit anti-abortion violence, rather than the assessment of reliable sources, should have any impact on how we do things at Knowledge (XXG)? –

3437:, among other things.) We've been begging you to find sources that say it isn't Christian or that provide examples of non-Christians committing it, but no one has obliged. – 4177: 4182: 3490: 3434: 1526:

The bot removed the template because the first signature in the thread was over 30 days ago. I have fixed this by adding today's timestamp at the top of the discussion.

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that anti-abortion violence is primarily associated with "Christian terrorism" (which I rather doubt is a valid claim at all) and certainly opposition to abortion is

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This is exactly the sort of argument that led to the initial close being overturned. "Let's speculate, with no evidence, about what's in people's heads or about

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4. Related to 2, trying to make it about anti-abortion sentiment in general is a strawman. Get back to me when the Dalai Lama bombs an abortion clinic, will you?

223: 3116:, but that's quite different than subcategorizing the one into the other, which is tantamount to saying that this is an inherent and defining characteristic. 1768: 3744:

Causing someone to fear violence is still crime of violence, and assault is a crime of violence. And the warning of reprisal in the article is a true threat.

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the systematic bias (Western-centric) that would account for the limited coverage. But if I'm misunderstanding your argument, please feel free to clarify.

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motive. 'Misogynistic terrorism' or 'save human embryo life terrorism' are just some ways it maybe viewed too, but not if you label it ALL just Christian.

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Yes, yes there is. Many governments, both past and present, have committed anti-abortion violence. After all, governments exercise a monopoly on violence.

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a defining characteristic of anti-abortion violence that it is driven by Christian extremism. The sources in my list emphasize this all-important aspect.

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viewpoint, namely that anti-abortion violence is un-related to Christianity, that is okay, and should be addressed in detail in various articles (such as

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Quite the opposite. I'm asking you to prove a positive. You claim that non-Christians commit anti-abortion violence; find some sources that say so. –

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of the content has to fit) but, more to the point, there's still been a distinct failure to provide sources on any anti-abortion violence that is

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a form of Christian terrorism. That is how you prove something is POV, by providing sources to the contrary, not by simply insisting it's true.

660:." The sources cited in the article also make basically the same point, but this is the one that puts it in the terms closest to your comment. – 4157: 3726:

No. "Assault is a crime causing a victim to fear violence". "Fear of violence" does not equate to "violence". Actual violence is prosecuted as

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many of the other items in the category: to be qualified, it needs not to be just terrorism perpetrated by a Christian, but terrorism done

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article that classed government penalties for abortion and anti-abortion terrorism under the same heading, particularly as such an article

855:) but that alternative viewpoint cannot justify the elimination of a subcategorization that is supported by dozens of reliable sources. -- 1669:

I don't see how the other content of the category bears on this; surely if reliable sources describe other things as Christian terrorism,

958:. As Noleander said above, WP should follow the sources; going contrary to them would mean giving undue weight to a minority perspective. 2237:

implies that some of the "infant mortality" is less-than-incidental. And the "extra" children are denied schooling - with The Guardian

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related to Christianity-related violence. If WP were to hide this association, we would be caving in to political correctness. --

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While some terrorism experts classify this as CT, most do not. We would be endorsing a minority view over mainstream scholarship.

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know if there was an objection to the phrase "anti-abortion terrorism" that we should consider. But anyway, consensus can change. –

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and so on. See how the meaning of the category drifts as the category tree is climbed? This adds to a lateral change in meaning.

298: 262: 78: 58: 1952:, page 123, Sage Publications. Discussing the Christian ultra-Right "and its penchant for armed violence": "An editorial in the 1343:

It appears there are plenty of sources to support the categorization. It shouldn't be viewed as a judgment, just a search tool.

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further restate the reasons why it doesn't matter if we can find examples of non-Christians committing anti-abortion violence.

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I don't care about how it "may be viewed," I care about how reliable sources describe it, and that is as Christian terrorism. –

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Knowledge (XXG):Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 26#"Christian terrorism" supercategory at Cat:Anti-abortion violence.

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claim the bombing of an abortion clinic by an atheist, is not anti-abortion violence because it is not Christian Terrorism.

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Indeed, there has been recent violence in Tibet. Is it in opposition to abortion? No, so it's completely irrelevant here. –

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Christian terrorism even though that term is not widely used because it hits too close to home for many Western readers.

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currently really only covers terrorism. So rename and create a new, broader, cat for Anti-abortion violence if needed.

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Listening to Islam: with Thomas Merton, Sayyid Qutb, Kenneth Cragg and Ziauddin Sardar : praise, reason and reflection

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assertion. Categorization does have to be restrained based on what is logically possible, not just what currently

2834: 2700: 2492: 2066:, Gale. "For example, when Christian groups bomb abortion clinics, it is rarely referred to as 'Christian terrorism 883: 2711:. Are artists a kind of flower? No. Why are those subcategories permitted? Because the subcategory is merely 975:. State-sponsored violence (e.g. whipping, death penalty, incarceration) have substantial non-Christian elements. 3785: 3771: 3749: 3735: 3717: 3681: 3533: 3498: 3395: 3320: 3281: 2823: 2783: 2744: 2406: 2361: 2301: 1842: 1778: 1705: 1182: 1143: 1109: 1062: 1016: 980: 906: 635:. Is there support in the sources that anti-abortion violence comes primarily or exclusively from Christians? -- 2887:

nor its subcategories, e.g., even though all known life exists only on Earth). I also object to the claim that

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True. I was just brainstorming, trying to think of a way to resolve the competing viewpoints in this RfC. --

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It's also "logically possible" that a member of Hamas could be a non-Muslim, but that doesn't stop us putting

39: 2002:, ABC-CLIO. Discussion of Christian extremism its religiously motivated terrorism against abortion, with the 4095: 2970:, because that's what sources say. It's also "logically possible" that James Dobson's conversion to Judaism 2708: 1452: 886: 21: 2648:

And outside of the Western world? There is no anti-abortion violence? Or we just don't document it here?

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restraints, bomb abortion clinics and assassinate abortion providers at will, stands as a perfect example

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You seem to still be missing the difference between content and categorization, and also overlooking what

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Terrorism and counterterrorism: understanding the new security environment: readings & interpretations

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Knowledge (XXG):Administrators' noticeboard/Archive228#RFC close review: Category:Anti-abortion violence

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Knowledge (XXG):Administrators' noticeboard/Archive228#RFC close review: Category:Anti-abortion violence

772:- here are a handful of sources that associate anti-abortion/pro-life violence with Christian terrorism: 541:

Knowledge (XXG):Administrators' noticeboard/Archive228#RFC close review: Category:Anti-abortion violence

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

1985:, Nation Books. Discussion about Christian extremism linked to domestic terrorism stemming from 1981's 3961: 3781: 3767: 3745: 3731: 3713: 3677: 3529: 3316: 3277: 3018: 2819: 2779: 2740: 2696: 2611:

talk, but not only have these voters not found such sources, it seems like most haven't even tried. –

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Dalai Lama is opposed to abortion (which is illegal in some Buddhist countries, IIRC). Cheers.

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which the sources associate with Christianity. That new category would be a subcategory of both

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consequences, however severe, with terrorism, and we can't make decisions about how to categorize

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I disagree. I think you should re-read that but I am happy to let the closing administrator judge.

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Unfortunately for you, the argument about its being American is easily disproved, since not only

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1. "What if a non-Christian commits an act of anti-abortion terrorism one day in the future" is

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So...you're ignoring the sources which state it's a form of Christian terrorism, because you

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including the forced abortopns of practicing Buddhists contrary to their religious precepts

1820:, the sources are reliable and clear. There's no POV issue here, all of the points of view 1587:), who commented after the reopening of the RfC, I have notified the participants here, at 1444: 1034:. Let's discuss the topic in ways consistent with the sources and the topic that we have. – 709: 460:

Knowledge (XXG):NPOVN#.22Christian_terrorism.22_supercategory_at_Cat:Anti-abortion_violence

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Christian or American by its very nature, and this is simply logically not substantiated.

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make it a defining characteristic - see, among others, Juergensmeyer, Bryant, and Flint. –

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suddenly a rash of Hindus bombing abortion clinics, we can always revisit the category.) –

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Oh, I didn't even notice Siafu had responded to this. Fail! But yes, words =/= actions. –

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possibility of us ever conflating judicial punishments and individual/group terrorism. –

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be happening right now in spite of the total absence of sources, but his article is in

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This is exactly the sort of argument that led to the initial close being overturned.

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Religion and Politics in America: The Rise of Christian Evangelists and their Impact

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The terrorism ahead: confronting transnational violence in the twenty-first century

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multiple times, the individual cases are not speaking to actual question at hand.

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For Knowledge (XXG) purposes, it doesn't exist if sources on it cannot be found. –

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pro-life advocacy actually seems to be much more than an issue about Christianity.

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etc. all the same, because that is the extent of what we know. Categorization is

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be related to what they are interested in. Including a category in another (see

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be happening without being picked up in any sources. We work based on sources. –

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For Knowledge (XXG) purposes, it doesn't exist if sources on it cannot be found.

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Christian terrorists" either. Any remotely religious issue in the US is going,

1719:, that rather belies your claim of "mainstream" scholarship agreeing with you. – 755:) is not a conclusion, nor a pronouncement: it is just an indexing technique. -- 1956:

asserted, 'Shooting of abortion doctor was terrorism, not just assault,' while

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And the bot has actually just removed the template again. Damned automatons!

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makes the point, classifying abortion clinic violence as Christian terrorism.

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Primarily is not the same as exclusively. I would say that we are engaging in

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I could support "anti-abortion terrorism" being subcatagorized this way, but

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Armed for Life: The Army of God and Anti-Abortion Terror in the United States

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Armed for Life: The Army of God and Anti-Abortion Terror in the United States

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for example makes even that questionable. Basically, this categorization is

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in furtherance of what the perpetrator thought to be the Christian religion.

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advertised as an RFC, but it ran so long that a bot removed the template. –

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It's not so possible for Hamas members to be non-Muslim, and James Dobson

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If it's a subcategory, it has to be only motivated by Christianity. Think

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reporting that 61% of Tibetan children getting zzero secondary education.

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is not a helpful guideline here because it works just as well both ways.

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is that this subject is a type of Christian terrorism. The point of view

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Wait, what? Is there a way in which this is relevant to the discussion? –

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by Francis Schaeffer; a book which inspired Randall Terry and murderer

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There's a brief mention in the first section with a bunch of sources. –

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Subject to debate: sense and dissents on women, politics, and culture

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a whole lot of experts describe the phenomenon as Christian terrorism

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which gave a religious justification to his anti-abortion terrorism.

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appear to be adequately represented, and the dominant point of view

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Religion and Politics in America: The Rise of Christian Evangelists

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this seems very POV as elaborated on by a number of editors above.

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Republican Gomorrah: Inside the Movement That Shattered the Party

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article based on a hypothetical article that will never exist. –

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Terror in the mind of God: the global rise of religious violence

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Terror in the mind of God: the global rise of religious violence

302:. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at 150:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on 3766:

violence. And warnings are not threats, your logic is absurd.

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correct, so we can't claim they're inspired by Christianity. –

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Confucian anti-abortion terrorists I just don't hear about. --

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Hoffman is claiming some of these people are not Christian. –

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American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America

1240:. That would solve all of the objections raised above. -- 2715:

to the parent category, and including it helps readers find

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seems extremely well founded, but needs to be brought up on

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of violence recently in Tibet, just in case you missed it.

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NB this comment should not be taken to mean that producing

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The "fuss" would be because we generally go based on what

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Interventions: activists and academics respond to violence

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say, not based on individual editors' speculations about

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done incorrectly, is no argument for it to be done here.

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What is hoped to be gained by sub-categorizing this way?

2703:. Is insurance a kind of automobile? Of course not. 1897:, University of California Press. Discussion of killers 3026:

characteristic of anti-abortion violence, it is only a

1226:

Category:Christianity-influenced anti-abortion violence

2994:

in order to avoid calling this what sources call it? –

2776:

Knowledge (XXG):Categorization#Defining characteristic

919:

How is this different from any other categorization? –

3431:

Category:Anti-abortion violence in the United States‎

1297:

On a related note, it is surprising that the article

2230:

Indeed yes - that is one of the issues for Tibet - '

1439:

side note, the suggestion to make the category into

494:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

384:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 218:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 82:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 1228:. That category would include any articles within 3315:Category:Christianity, if we were discussing that. 3179:to believe it because there is, so far, no reason 3089:overwhelmingly call it a defining characteristic. 3071:) 01:07, 9 November 2011 (UTC) -- And vice-versa. 1926:Elizabeth Anne Castelli, Janet R. Jakobsen (2004) 398:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Sexology and sexuality 3491:Category:Christian terrorism in the United States 3435:Category:Terrorist incidents in the United States 2062:Loretta Hall, Anan Ameri, Bridget K. Hall (1999) 1942:Religion and terrorism: an interfaith perspective 800:Religion and terrorism: an interfaith perspective 3885:We're dealing here with an elemental premise of 2113:anti-abortion violence on Christianity but on a 2042:7/7: the London bombings, Islam and the Iraq War 1224:- Another approach is to create a new category 32:does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s 4208:Category-Class Sexology and sexuality articles 3895:"They are primarily fundamentalist Christians" 3889:: You yourself have posted a news item above ( 3758:The term 'crime of violence' refers to crimes 1882:Christian terrorism and anti-abortion violence 458:note: the NPOV noticeboard discussion was at 4213:NA-importance Sexology and sexuality articles 2986:based on sources in article text - why is it 2064:Arab American Reference Library: Encyclopedia 497:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 8: 2189:. I would point out that my position about 658:They are primarily fundamentalist Christians 4218:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality articles 3610:'s argument but also per Hobit's argument-- 2185:I fear your post implies that an RfC is an 876:category:Christianity-related controversies 401:Template:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality 3422:we have an article on Peter James Knight, 3362:Targets of hatred: anti-abortion terrorism 2629:Yes, Hobit, I am specifically saying that 333: 251: 232:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Women's Health 183: 115: 47: 1617:unsigned comment by User:Graeme Bartlett 305:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Medicine 3823:-inspired anti-abortion violence -- and 2592:as a subset of something when it isn't? 2106:(XXG) policies about NPOV as a minimum. 1462:Discussion reopened following review on 1447:rather than, or in addition to, here.)-- 814:By Cindy C. Combs, Martin W. Slann, p 13 3495:Category:Christian terrorism by country 3261:Christian extremism? No, there is not. 2758:where it says that? I'm not seeing it. 2194:categories are. BTW, there has been a 2150:, nothing to do with sources or policy. 1960:warned of 'Domestic Terrorists At Work. 335: 253: 185: 117: 49: 4178:Category-Class women's health articles 4019:Is there a reason that you think your 2370:Why should it have to be described as 2187:interminable debating society exercise 1909:—all Christian extremists. Bray wrote 1259:it is a form of Christian terrorism. – 4183:NA-importance women's health articles 3347:makes the point you are looking for. 2754:Could you quote the relevant part of 1430:There is ambivalence here and in the 806:Terrorism: An Investigator's Handbook 378:This category is within the scope of 296:This category is within the scope of 212:This category is within the scope of 164:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Terrorism 144:This category is within the scope of 76:This category is within the scope of 19: 7: 3112:could and should be cross-listed in 2980:Category:Christian religious leaders 2939:have happened in the past, and what 890:Category:Social sciences methodology 488:The following discussion is closed. 314:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Medicine 96:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Abortion 4188:WikiProject Women's Health articles 2719:topics. Anti-abortion violence is 1948:Pamala L. Griset, Sue Mahan (2003) 235:Template:WikiProject Women's Health 38:It is of interest to the following 1741:source will vindicate your claim – 1238:Category:Christianity and violence 381:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality 14: 4163:Category-Class Terrorism articles 3712:is, indeed, a crime of violence. 2792:Which is quite proper since that 1425:The result of the discussion was: 899:Category:Interdisciplinary fields 790:By Muhammad Arif Zakaullah, p 109 4193:Category-Class medicine articles 4168:NA-importance Terrorism articles 4148:Category-Class Abortion articles 4130:The discussion above is closed. 3497:, to follow the common format), 2055:and Major Reid L. Sawyer (2004) 1874: 1441:Category:Anti-abortion terrorism 1369:Category:Anti-abortion terrorism 365: 355: 337: 283: 273: 255: 205: 187: 137: 119: 69: 51: 20: 4198:NA-importance medicine articles 4153:NA-importance Abortion articles 3976:what might happen in the future 3388:Category:Anti-abortion violence 3209:Category:Anti-abortion violence 3110:Category:Anti-abortion violence 2514:what might happen in the future 2006:, Michael Bray, James Kopp and 1967:Muhammad Arif Zakaullah (2007) 1671:you could also add those things 1375:Category:Anti-abortion violence 1365:Category:Anti-abortion violence 1234:Category:Anti-abortion violence 1230:Category:Anti-abortion violence 952:Category:Anti-abortion violence 559:Category:Anti-abortion violence 503:Category:Anti-abortion violence 404:Sexology and sexuality articles 4203:All WikiProject Medicine pages 4173:WikiProject Terrorism articles 2845:decide to record some opera. – 1385:) 04:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC) 1330:18:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1312:18:08, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1291:18:30, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1273:18:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1250:18:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1187:17:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1170:17:42, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1148:17:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1133:17:29, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1114:17:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1090:16:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1067:16:43, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1048:16:38, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1021:16:21, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 1007:16:11, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 985:15:02, 19 September 2011 (UTC) 167:Template:WikiProject Terrorism 1: 4158:WikiProject Abortion articles 4077:15:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC) 4058:15:34, 18 November 2011 (UTC) 4037:15:04, 18 November 2011 (UTC) 4015:11:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC) 3992:19:34, 16 November 2011 (UTC) 3966:19:16, 16 November 2011 (UTC) 3941:13:35, 17 November 2011 (UTC) 3926:04:20, 17 November 2011 (UTC) 3907:00:43, 17 November 2011 (UTC) 3881:18:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC) 3858:11:35, 16 November 2011 (UTC) 3790:21:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC) 3776:19:37, 14 November 2011 (UTC) 3754:10:40, 14 November 2011 (UTC) 3740:08:52, 14 November 2011 (UTC) 3722:21:15, 13 November 2011 (UTC) 3704:20:57, 13 November 2011 (UTC) 3686:20:34, 13 November 2011 (UTC) 3671:20:26, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 3656:20:16, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 3637:16:42, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 3553:02:12, 12 November 2011 (UTC) 3538:18:01, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 3515:20:58, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 3484:20:46, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 3466:20:26, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 3451:20:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 3412:17:01, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 3392:Category: Christian terrorism 3378:16:46, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 3340:03:45, 10 November 2011 (UTC) 3198:16:16, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 2974:have happened in the past or 2913:happen in the future or what 968:01:03, 9 September 2011 (UTC) 933:16:01, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 911:10:43, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 865:22:46, 8 September 2011 (UTC) 765:22:38, 8 September 2011 (UTC) 736:21:19, 8 September 2011 (UTC) 696:18:43, 8 September 2011 (UTC) 674:03:33, 8 September 2011 (UTC) 647:23:10, 7 September 2011 (UTC) 624:01:59, 7 September 2011 (UTC) 601:00:05, 7 September 2011 (UTC) 583:23:43, 6 September 2011 (UTC) 530:17:39, 12 December 2011 (UTC) 472:23:13, 8 September 2011 (UTC) 454:23:30, 6 September 2011 (UTC) 435:23:11, 6 September 2011 (UTC) 392:and see a list of open tasks. 317:Template:WikiProject Medicine 226:and see a list of open tasks. 158:and see a list of open tasks. 99:Template:WikiProject Abortion 90:and see a list of open tasks. 4123:19:18, 4 December 2011 (UTC) 4100:14:55, 4 December 2011 (UTC) 3616:02:31, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3396:Category: American terrorism 3325:22:52, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3310:22:28, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3286:21:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3271:19:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3256:18:47, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3241:18:44, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3226:18:12, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3213:Category:Christian terrorism 3162:17:36, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3148:16:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3126:15:53, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3114:Category:Christian terrorism 3099:15:09, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3081:01:07, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3059:00:59, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3041:00:34, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 3008:21:02, 8 November 2011 (UTC) 2968:Category:Palestinian Muslims 2958:18:02, 8 November 2011 (UTC) 2931:17:35, 8 November 2011 (UTC) 2901:17:03, 8 November 2011 (UTC) 2859:21:02, 8 November 2011 (UTC) 2828:17:59, 8 November 2011 (UTC) 2811:17:35, 8 November 2011 (UTC) 2788:17:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC) 2768:14:29, 8 November 2011 (UTC) 2749:18:59, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2733:15:23, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2676:02:17, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2658:02:01, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2644:00:19, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2625:00:12, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2602:23:14, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 2587:17:18, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 2575:Comment to the closing admin 2564:00:12, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2545:23:14, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 2530:16:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 2508:15:11, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 2468:01:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2441:00:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2411:00:39, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2393:00:12, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2366:23:30, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 2349:21:40, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 2324:16:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 2306:14:47, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 2276:16:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 2257:12:57, 9 November 2011 (UTC) 2226:14:32, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2208:12:38, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2179:16:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 2135:11:59, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1866:08:51, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1847:06:51, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1805:16:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1791:that support your opinion. – 1783:06:58, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1755:06:10, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1733:06:03, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1710:04:44, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1691:06:03, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1665:04:41, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1635:06:03, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1605:04:06, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1564:14:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC) 1536:03:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 1522:15:57, 3 November 2011 (UTC) 1502:15:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC) 1479:15:12, 3 November 2011 (UTC) 1457:13:57, 19 October 2011 (UTC) 1418:05:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC) 1397:15:11, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 956:Category:Christian terrorism 880:Category:History of religion 796:By Colin Robert Flint, p 172 563:Category:Christian terrorism 553:03:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC) 507:Category:Christian terrorism 501:The discussion regarding if 3499:Category:Catholic terrorism 3489:exist would be things like 3384:Categories are not articles 3108:of the current articles in 2839:Category:Gangsta rap albums 2701:Category: Vehicle insurance 1357:00:11, 7 October 2011 (UTC) 1102:Planned Parenthood v. Casey 954:should be a subcategory of 802:By Aref M. Al-Khattar, p 59 794:Introduction to geopolitics 4234: 2835:Category:Snoop Dogg albums 2415:That's not actually true ( 1939:Aref M. Al-Khattar (2003) 1932:, Macmillan. Referring to 1907:Rachelle "Shelley" Shannon 884:Category:Fields of history 826:By Mark Juergensmeyer, p 4 820:By Jennifer Jefferis, p 40 784:... By Paul J. Smith, p 94 708:seems exactly contrary to 539:This RfC was reopened per 215:WikiProject Women's Health 3827:should have a section on 3819:should have a section on 2841:because the artist might 1996:Jennifer Jefferis (2011) 1919:in John H. Watson (2005) 1484:Re your edit summary: it 812:Encyclopedia of terrorism 808:By William E. Dyson, p 43 350: 268: 200: 132: 64: 46: 4132:Please do not modify it. 3821:Christian fundamentalism 2709:Category:Flower artists‎ 2095:Oppose subcategorization 1958:the Atlanta Constitution 1950:Terrorism in perspective 896:Category:Formal sciences 878:whcih puts it in , then 745:Yes, keep as subcategory 491:Please do not modify it. 3085:The difference is that 2695:articles. For example, 1028:completely hypothetical 887:Category:Historiography 832:By Bruce Hoffman, p 116 462:, circa 11 Aug 2011. -- 238:women's health articles 4109:sources have to say. – 3829:anti-abortion violence 3817:Anti-abortion violence 3503:Category:Aryan Nations 2964:Category:Hamas members 2905:We certainly couldn't 2120:by simple demographics 1299:Anti-abortion violence 849:Anti-abortion violence 569:consensus either way.– 395:Sexology and sexuality 373:Human sexuality portal 345:Sexology and sexuality 3762:violence, not crimes 3358:A Christian Manifesto 2990:to break with policy 2707:contains subcategory 2699:contains subcategory 1987:A Christian Manifesto 1428:do not subcategorize. 509:is using elements of 147:WikiProject Terrorism 4104:Quite the contrary. 3019:Category:Butterflies 2697:Category:Automobiles 2419:guidelines are that 893:Category:Methodology 561:be a subcategory of 480:RFC on supercategory 299:WikiProject Medicine 79:WikiProject Abortion 4050:Dmitrij D. Czarkoff 4007:Dmitrij D. Czarkoff 3825:Christian terrorism 3528:events in America. 1387:Updated, see below 853:Christian terrorism 505:can be a subcat of 3345:Mark Juergensmeyer 1991:James Charles Kopp 1903:Paul Jennings Hill 1889:Mark Juergensmeyer 170:Terrorism articles 34:content assessment 3429:. (Incidentally, 2988:so very important 2091: 2090: 2053:Russell D. Howard 1354: 704:exist somewhere? 680:original research 645: 420: 419: 416: 415: 412: 411: 332: 331: 328: 327: 320:medicine articles 250: 249: 246: 245: 182: 181: 178: 177: 114: 113: 110: 109: 102:Abortion articles 4225: 4021:personal beliefs 3972:reliable sources 3171: 3170: 3087:reliable sources 2705:Category:Flowers 2498:too US-centric. 2097:The use of such 2080:Global Terrorism 2069: 1963: 1878: 1877: 1871: 1595:about this RfC. 1509: 1432:NPOVN discussion 1363:Yes, but rename 1350: 1347: 1032:will never exist 830:Inside terrorism 693: 687: 639: 522: 493: 406: 405: 402: 399: 396: 375: 370: 369: 359: 352: 351: 341: 334: 322: 321: 318: 315: 312: 293: 288: 287: 286: 277: 270: 269: 259: 252: 240: 239: 236: 233: 230: 209: 202: 201: 191: 184: 172: 171: 168: 165: 162: 141: 134: 133: 123: 116: 104: 103: 100: 97: 94: 73: 66: 65: 55: 48: 25: 24: 16: 4233: 4232: 4228: 4227: 4226: 4224: 4223: 4222: 4138: 4137: 4136: 4135: 3839:) or not (e.g. 3782:Alanscottwalker 3768:TechnoSymbiosis 3746:Alanscottwalker 3732:TechnoSymbiosis 3728:battery (crime) 3714:Alanscottwalker 3708:A threat, aka, 3678:TechnoSymbiosis 3612:William Thweatt 3530:Alanscottwalker 3390:listed also in 3353:Andrew Sullivan 3349:Ziauddin Sardar 3317:Alanscottwalker 3278:Alanscottwalker 2820:Alanscottwalker 2780:Alanscottwalker 2741:Alanscottwalker 2403:Alanscottwalker 2358:Alanscottwalker 2298:Alanscottwalker 2073:James M. Lutz, 2067: 2008:Clayton Waagner 1961: 1934:Andrew Sullivan 1917:Ziauddin Sardar 1875: 1839:TechnoSymbiosis 1507: 1353: 1345: 1179:Anythingyouwant 1140:Anythingyouwant 1106:Anythingyouwant 1059:Anythingyouwant 1013:Anythingyouwant 977:Anythingyouwant 903:Graeme Bartlett 691: 685: 537: 520: 489: 482: 428: 403: 400: 397: 394: 393: 386:human sexuality 371: 364: 319: 316: 313: 310: 309: 291:Medicine portal 289: 284: 282: 237: 234: 231: 228: 227: 169: 166: 163: 160: 159: 101: 98: 95: 92: 91: 12: 11: 5: 4231: 4229: 4221: 4220: 4215: 4210: 4205: 4200: 4195: 4190: 4185: 4180: 4175: 4170: 4165: 4160: 4155: 4150: 4140: 4139: 4129: 4128: 4127: 4126: 4125: 4084: 4083: 4082: 4081: 4080: 4079: 4042: 4041: 4040: 4039: 3996: 3995: 3994: 3951: 3950: 3949: 3948: 3947: 3946: 3945: 3944: 3943: 3810: 3809: 3808: 3807: 3806: 3805: 3804: 3803: 3802: 3801: 3800: 3799: 3798: 3797: 3796: 3795: 3794: 3793: 3792: 3619: 3618: 3600: 3599: 3598: 3597: 3596: 3595: 3594: 3593: 3592: 3591: 3590: 3589: 3588: 3587: 3586: 3585: 3584: 3583: 3582: 3581: 3580: 3579: 3578: 3577: 3576: 3575: 3574: 3573: 3572: 3571: 3570: 3569: 3568: 3567: 3566: 3565: 3564: 3563: 3562: 3561: 3560: 3559: 3558: 3557: 3556: 3555: 3525: 3524: 3523: 3522: 3521: 3520: 3519: 3518: 3517: 3204: 3203: 3202: 3201: 3200: 2885:Category:Earth 2868: 2867: 2866: 2865: 2864: 2863: 2862: 2861: 2815: 2814: 2813: 2736: 2735: 2686: 2685: 2684: 2683: 2682: 2681: 2680: 2679: 2678: 2627: 2606:Okay, saying " 2572: 2571: 2570: 2569: 2568: 2567: 2566: 2477: 2476: 2475: 2474: 2473: 2472: 2471: 2470: 2455: 2454: 2453: 2452: 2451: 2450: 2449: 2448: 2447: 2446: 2445: 2444: 2443: 2290: 2289: 2288: 2287: 2286: 2285: 2284: 2283: 2282: 2281: 2280: 2279: 2278: 2163: 2162: 2161: 2158: 2154: 2151: 2089: 2088: 2087: 2086: 2085: 2084: 2075:Brenda J. Lutz 2071: 2060: 2049: 2035: 2023: 2011: 1994: 1977:Max Blumenthal 1974: 1965: 1946: 1937: 1924: 1914: 1911:A Time to Kill 1879: 1869: 1868: 1854:Strong support 1850: 1849: 1826:in the sources 1822:in the sources 1814: 1813: 1812: 1811: 1810: 1809: 1808: 1807: 1767:Aubrey's book, 1760: 1759: 1758: 1757: 1735: 1695: 1694: 1693: 1645:Absolutely not 1640: 1639: 1638: 1637: 1608: 1607: 1567: 1566: 1543: 1542: 1541: 1540: 1539: 1538: 1460: 1459: 1421: 1420: 1400: 1399: 1359: 1351: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1334: 1333: 1332: 1295: 1294: 1293: 1276: 1275: 1253: 1252: 1218: 1217: 1216: 1215: 1214: 1213: 1212: 1211: 1210: 1209: 1208: 1207: 1206: 1205: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1201: 1200: 1199: 1198: 1197: 1196: 1195: 1194: 1193: 1192: 1191: 1190: 1189: 1098: 988: 987: 970: 944: 943: 942: 941: 940: 939: 938: 937: 936: 935: 914: 913: 837: 836: 835: 834: 833: 827: 821: 815: 809: 803: 797: 791: 785: 774: 773: 767: 741: 740: 739: 738: 676: 650: 649: 629: 628: 627: 626: 604: 603: 536: 535: 534: 533: 532: 484: 483: 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2210: 2209: 2205: 2201: 2197: 2192: 2188: 2184: 2183: 2182: 2181: 2180: 2176: 2172: 2168: 2164: 2159: 2157:perpetrators. 2155: 2152: 2149: 2145: 2141: 2140: 2138: 2137: 2136: 2132: 2128: 2124: 2121: 2116: 2112: 2108: 2104: 2100: 2096: 2093: 2092: 2082: 2081: 2076: 2072: 2065: 2061: 2058: 2054: 2050: 2047: 2043: 2039: 2036: 2033: 2032: 2027: 2026:Katha Pollitt 2024: 2021: 2020: 2015: 2012: 2009: 2005: 2001: 2000: 1995: 1992: 1988: 1984: 1983: 1978: 1975: 1972: 1971: 1966: 1959: 1955: 1951: 1947: 1944: 1943: 1938: 1935: 1931: 1930: 1925: 1922: 1918: 1915: 1912: 1908: 1904: 1900: 1896: 1895: 1890: 1887: 1886: 1885: 1884: 1883: 1880: 1873: 1872: 1867: 1863: 1859: 1855: 1852: 1851: 1848: 1844: 1840: 1836: 1831: 1827: 1823: 1819: 1818:Subcategorise 1816: 1815: 1806: 1802: 1798: 1794: 1790: 1786: 1785: 1784: 1780: 1776: 1773: 1769: 1766: 1765: 1764: 1763: 1762: 1761: 1756: 1752: 1748: 1744: 1740: 1736: 1734: 1730: 1726: 1722: 1718: 1713: 1712: 1711: 1707: 1703: 1699: 1696: 1692: 1688: 1684: 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