Talk:2017 Las Vegas shooting/Archive 12

1701:

I made no errors at all. Zero. Show me any error I made at all rather than just saying I did. The distance from Paddock's room to center stage is 1010'. The distance to the crowd in front of the stage is 1050'. If you run a line from Paddock's room through center stage out to 1500', as you are now talking about, you will be in the dirt parking lot. If you swing the arc around you will certainly be well past the area where the concertgoers were. I would suggest that you remeasure your distances and you will find that my measurements are more accurate. If you decide to keep the 500 yard / 1500' range you will be manipulating a source that many use and that I tried to correct. This is what I thought Wiki was about. So clearly you are not interested in placing factual data on this site. You would rather argue it then simply measure if yourself using Google Maps and calculating the hypotenuse. I have done what I was asked to do when I joined this site and that is to edit a page when I see something wrong. The distance is wrong. 100% Wrong. The number of concertgoers is obviously wrong. Do you see 22,000 people? Seriously? People are using the numbers here to make videos about how wrong it is. I tried to correct it and gave you the source. LIVE NATION is who put on the concert and I would think that they would know how many attending but you want to quote MSM? WOW. This is very discouraging. Here is the link to the video the made me want to correct this info.

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can be found if a reader takes the trouble to look for it. Not all media stories about this event, however, have shown a victim list. Instead, other media articles focus on a specific topic, such as the weapons, police response, timeline, and so forth. Knowledge, as an encyclopedia, is an appropriate place to list names of the victims, so that members of the public can see the information, or know if one or more specific names are on the list. At a minimum, the list should include each person's age. Such content in the article is what helps it to be "encyclopedic." Knowledge policies do not at present forbid inclusion of such information, as can be seen in other articles (named above in the !vote section) about mass killings. I believe the Not Memorial argument has been effectively refuted in my !vote above, and by the earlier !vote comment by IP user 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:E8B0:35F4:5401:1C0D. Such a (faulty) rationale also did not overrule inclusion of victim names in multiple other such articles on this site.

1598:: It was my understanding that Knowledge would like to use the most accurate and up to date information. In the references to crowd size, this was a 3-day event. 22,000 tickets were sold for the entire 3 days. This information is readily available from "Live Nation" and it has become common knowledge that the references to crowd size that evening were not correct. I called Live Nation and verified the crowd size. Since the exact crowd size for Sunday is not known, saying that it is 22,000 is simply not correct and saying it is 22,000 at the time of the shooting is a perpetuation of a false fact. Perhaps you should not reference crowd size at all or at least make it known that the crowd size is in question. 3079:

the article, which is the basis for the unreffed sentence in the lede. I understand the problematic nature of the word "modern," but I think we should use it as a reflection of what the sources now say. If at some point in years, decades or centuries hence, Knowledge editors want to drop "modern" or change the text to re-contextualize the word's meaning, they will presumably be free to do so (by which time, no doubt, this will no longer be "the deadliest" and "one of," or "253rd most deadly" or the like will be the necessary phrasing). I also recommend that the

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As for the Nigerian reaction, why is this so notable? It is standard condolence stuff. There are no good reasons for including what Australian and Nigerian politicians said while excluding the numerous other comments that were removed. British Prime Minister Theresa May used the shooting to comment on gun control, so it was not unusual." Without exception, every article about a mass shooting goes through a phase where a laundry list of reactions from foreign politicians is added. Then they are shunted off to a separate article, such as

2897:"; but that is an opinion and Knowledge should just state the facts. I had a thought that quoting some pundit in the lead would solve it, but who? Our Reliable Sources are trying to sell disasters so people will buy (and cite) their article. Quoting a politician makes that politician more important then the rest. I've looked in vain for guidance on establishing context in the lead in Knowledge and all I can find is "For topics notable for only one reason, this reason should usually be given in the first sentence." per 2828:

idea. The other, more specific problem with "lone shooter" or "an individual shooter" is that the reader immediately begins to wonder: which mass shooting (in the modern sense) involved two or more shooters and was more deadly than this one? Columbine, maybe? In other words, "lone shooter" doesn't really make the distinction that we are really trying to make - a distinction between "one or two heavily armed private citizens" vs. a huge group, like a mob or an army or a quasi-military unit. --

2314:" is used nowadays refers to shootings by private parties - that is, an individual or a few individuals. It is not used for events in wartime or carried out by armies or quasi-military bodies, which obviously eclipse anything private citizens can do. But the main consideration here is that we have to follow Reliable Sources; we can't just make up our own language to suit our own interpretations. The vast majority of Reliable Sources are either saying "deadliest" without qualification ( 924:: Where identification of particular victims, whether killed or not, is necessary to understand a crime, they should be included in an article because they are of relevance. Where their individual inclusion is not necessary to understand a crime, they should not be, and NOTMEMORIAL applies. In this case, the victims were randomly selected, and only Campos is necessary to include. The external link is a better option for those interested in those who died. 983:- for most of the reasons above, but the victims of the shooting are not notable for anything other than being victims of a shooting. What purpose is there to include their names, other than to commemorate them - which is essentially what WP:MEMORIAL is intended to avoid, even if it isn't directly phrased to include victims? Most of the arguments to support seem to be based on OTHERSTUFF - "Because other articles do so". This is a circular argument: 2149:. None of those in favour of "individual" have made the case that it is compliant with those policies. No source has been cited stating that this is the worst shooting by an individual. Indeed in the article the claim of deadliest by an individual is actually sourced to report describing it as the deadliest shooting in modern US history. This lack of a policy basis has been emphasized by those opting for "modern history" such as MelanieN and Icewhiz. 31: 1753:

which is correct, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were all in the stadium on Sunday evening at 10 PM. Likewise, there have been various estimates of the distance from Paddock's hotel window to the crowd, and the figure of 490 yards (1470 feet) given in the article is on the high side. Other sources have said 1000-1200 feet to the stage area. It can vary because the arena is large.--

2500:, but these were carried out by far more than one person. Racial massacres were commonplace in the 19th century USA, but if Knowledge is going to use the word modern, it has to explain what it means and not leave it up in the air for the reader to interpret. The Las Vegas shooting is a lone gunman shooting and does not equate to racial massacres by squads or armies in the 19th century.-- 1868:. It gives 1100 feet to the stage area, and I believe that this is a more realistic range based on the photos than 1500 feet which is well over a quarter of a mile. Also, it says that the capacity of the arena is 22,000 people, and unless it was full to capacity at 10 PM on Sunday evening it may not have been a crowd of 22,000, which is the point that Mike Turber was trying to make.-- 2630:. Though modern has weight of sources, the need of readers (who may be non-US and/or NESB) mean "individual" is more useful. "Modern" raises too many questions as there's no agreement on when it starts (1877? 1900? 1949? 1966? 1982?). Many sources leave it ambiguous; some are implicit through omitting an incident; some are explicit on a year; while those stating " 536:, except this one, include a list of the victims' names and, at the very least, their ages. This evidence proves that Knowledge editors have repeatedly debated this issue and clearly established a consensus that a list of victim names should and will be listed in major mass shooting articles, and that its inclusion overrides any objections based on 2239: 1604:

my numbers are accurate. The distance to center stage from Paddock's room is 1010' at ground level. Using 320' on the right angle will give you a hypotenuse 1060'. Follow that same line out to 1434' and you are in the middle of the street. I also verified the numbers using lasers at the location. So in this case, I am the source.

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on my talk page why it was removed, and here is the explanation given: "I can't recall removing it because it wasn't recently, but if I did, it was because a laundry list of reactions from foreign politicians adds little in the way of insight. Every mass shooting produces a laundry list of this kind.

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dlthewave, You are telling me I made errors in my calculations when you stated "using 9 meters as the floor height"? Using your number of 9 meters for floor height, the 32nd floor would be 944 feet high. I aam sure you meant 9 feet, which is also wrong. The hotel is 480 feet and has 43 actual floors.

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This was an indiscriminate shooting, and listing the names of the victims does nothing to contribute to the reader's understanding of the event. I agree with Pincrete's idea that relevant demographic information can be summarized in the text. Disagree that we are under any obligation to provide equal

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does not apply here. WP:MEMORIAL states, "Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Knowledge's notability requirements." Well, the victims are not the subject of an enyclopedia article; the 2017 Las Vegas shooting is the subject. The list of victims is obviously notweworthy content and numerous

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Avoiding Knowledge's voice, might be a way to go. We probably don't necessarily need to explicitly attribute given weight of sources is verifiable. Can anyone come up with a sample wording plus explanatory footnote (if necessary)? Note that there'll be a lot of inconsistency across WP. For instance,

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a case could be made for using neither, since 19th C killings are not generally described as 'shootings', despite people being shot, however maximum clarity is achieved by including 'individual' and it side-steps any "what about wounded knee" stuff. 'Modern' is a constantly moving term which is only

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still exists, but a lot of the foreign reactions are repetitive. There needs to be some reason why a country expressing condolences, lowering flags, illuminating buildings, calling for more gun control etc is notable. In this article, a decision was made to stick to reactions from the major national

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I have no clue how to edit wiki but I found an error and was wondering if anyone can fix it. Under the casualties section it says that UMC hospital is closer to the Route 91 location than Sunrise Hospital. That is false, Sunrise is .2 miles closer according to Google Maps. I know it’s a small detail

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I agree that 490 yards is the number that is supported by RS, and 500 yards is a good round number. Google Maps and back-of-the-envelope calculations might be useful for verifying or explaining measurements to other editors but we cannot use these calculations or laser measurements made by an editor

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Since I believe I have given you more accurate information than either of the 2 sources currently listed on the page I would kindly ask that you revert back to the information I have corrected or explain in detail why you would leave information on a site that is used as a reference that is known to

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does not apply. The Not Memorial provision, as I read it, refers to the topic of an entire article, not to a portion or section of an article. The article is not about the victims and thus by definition is not an attempt to memorialize them. Furthermore, the Notability guideline itself explains that

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I oppose "one of the". We really do need to say what Reliable Sources are saying, which is that it was THE deadliest such shooting (not "one of the"; there is no modern mass shooting that exceeds it). Yes, in a sense it is a contest; whenever one of these things happen the media always trot out the

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I feel the reason the !votes above are so diverse is we are trying to say this in Knowledge's voice. It seems we are trying to give this incident some context in the lead rather then just saying "a lot of people got killed". We want to let the reader know "Is this the most terrible thing to happen?

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The trouble with "lone shooter" or "an individual shooter" is - well, two troubles actually. The biggest problem is, that's not what Reliable Sources are saying, and I am still disturbed by the apparent feeling of many here that they can ignore Reliable Source usage if they think they have a better

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In reference to the distance. If the hypotenuse is 490 yards (1470') and the room is roughly 320', then the linear distance on the ground is 1434.7473645210157'. Again this would place his shots outside the venue. You are welcome to check my math as I have been investigating this event directly and

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In reply to Chaheel Riens: This event would have been much less likely to be included in Knowledge if the shooter fired randomly from the hotel, but did not kill anyone. The deaths are what guarantee the notability of this event. Of couse, mainstream media have named the victims, so the information

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Hulk, your reasoning does not address the entirety of the argument, largely missing the point and making it a strawman. Nobody has suggested "simply linking things we think only other people care about". But I suggest that nobody's mind is going to be changed by this debate (it's illusory that such

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So, we stop at the arbitrary square of the sum of digits on a human’s hands? Do we want future mass killers to think their victims won’t get into Knowledge if they don’t kill at least the Knowledge numerological standard of 100? Instead of using an arbitrary number, let’s choose zero. People use an

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I agree with Melanie that we should be carefully observant of what the RS say. The lede at present (11/15/17, 0808 UTC) is acceptable imo, but can be improved by addition of "modern," a word used in two of the three refs currently in place following the last sentence in the "Casualties" section of

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used doesn't directly mention maps, but it does indicate that Sunrise being listed first on people's phones is likely one reason so many people went there instead of UMC. The news article doesn't exactly say that UMC is "nearby", but it seems like the simplest way to summarize it, so that's how I

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The strange thing is that Mike Turber may actually be right here. Reliable sources are not infallible, and the figure of 22,000 may be the ticket sales for the entire event, not the Sunday evening. When Live Nation was asked by the media how many people attended the event, it may have said 22,000

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Also oppose "one of the" because it is too vague. Agreed, we are not keeping a score sheet, but it would be wrong not to mention that Paddock managed to exceed the death toll in Orlando (within 18 months, so soon already). As for "modern", it might be best to sidestep this word by introducing a

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We've been through this before. The US mainstream media is using the word "modern" here as shorthand for "there were worse racial massacres in the USA in the 19th century" which indeed there were, but this is not what the word modern means on its own. The first "modern" mass shooting is widely

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have a victims list - because many of the victims were gay? If a victims list is made, should it include the race of the victims? People think that everyone there was white because it was a country music festival, but there were lots of Hispanics at the concert and at least one Asian lady was

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on the fly (hint: Wounded Knee happened within it)? Is WP redefining "mass shooting" to include military and mob incidents when the rest of the world doesn't use the word that way? Etc. Using "individual" is helpful here because it avoids all that. The convoluted rationale provided by NPR

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100. If anything, it's an incentive to kill fewer people. I've never believed in the theory that dead killers are interested in their posthumous articles, though. Pointing to info elsewhere is better than nothing, but if we start simply linking things we think only other people care about,

1332:. The BLP policy does apply, but it just means that poorly sourced content should be removed and special care taken, none of which apply here since they've already all been named by said media outlets. WP:MEMORIAL applies to standalone articles, not content. The guiding policy would be 898:

of the articles about the other top 10 deadliest U.S. mass shootings (which are linked in my ivote comment above). There was a clear consensus in every one of them not only to include a victims list, but at the very least to use names and ages. Some of them have additional information.

2319: 1816:: Apologies for my non-metric conversion fail. Yeah the distance seems long, but as written by others above, we need to be able to source claims to Reliable Sources (though some of those Reliable Sources may happen to be of increasingly questionable reliability)... 1680:

as sources. You each made errors and assumptions in your calculations (using 9 meters as the floor height and assuming that the measured line goes through the stage area) which clearly illustrate why we use information that has been vetted by secondary sources. –

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In addition to being carried out by one deranged person in the space of a few minutes, it required ownership of a hand held gun that could fire rapidly and repeatedly, something which nobody in the 19th century had. Nobody ever committed a mass shooting with a

2725:- while possible to verify on modern events, this is actually quite hard for the 19th century and early 20th century. You'd need bullet clad sourcing to support individual, and you'd probably have to qualify with a known to have been committed by an individual. 1546:

The crime scene is clearly staged. Has there ever been a video showing even one shot from his hotel window? There is however a video showing shooters on the roof, below the Mandela hotel. It would be nice if Knowledge would present the truth for a

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Maybe something like, "after the shooting, it was regarded (by the media?) as the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history". This way it would reflect the sources and avoid dating the article, even if deadlier shootings occur in the future.

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mainstream reliable sources have published it. Simply displaying the name/age/residence of the victims is absolutely not memorializing. Memorializing would include content such as background details, tributes, anecdotes, quotes, and photos. The

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using "measure distance" (right-click menu). Level distance from north end of Mandalay Bay hotel to central area in front of stage is shown as ~360m ~= 390 yards. Level distance from MB to northeast corner of LVV is shown as ~625m ~=683 yards.

2611:- Ha ha! Yes. Very clever. But I think saying "single individual" makes it clearer this was a lone wolf shooting. Rather than individual acting within a larger group. I guess we could say "lone shooter" or something like that instead. 2242:, most of which say something like "deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history" or "one of the deadliest shootings in US history". In addition, a lot of the sources cited below by MelanieN describe why "modern" is important here. 1496:. The police are still insisting that Paddock killed himself, and despite their somewhat wobbly track record, it would require a lot more evidence to overturn the theory that he was already dead when the SWAT team entered the room.-- 2957:

Never liked the use of superlatives to describe such events. Does this event make the Orlando shooting any less awful? Is this a contest? I’m fine with “one of the…”. Then we just have to worry about the rest of the sentence.

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with respect to the typical distribution of coverage of an event in secondary sources (thus, at the very least, making it inappropriate for the main article; it's chopped back to only-the-notables). There are also issues of

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Easy. We stop where a consensus of editors says to stop. For the most prominent mass murders, they have clearly said not to stop. Pointing to the source is great for all the details beyond their basic identity information.

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should be included here when there are official ones available. Not only can consensus change, the "consensus" at the Orlando shooting article was 22 to 16, or 58% support. That is hardly a precedent-setting consensus.

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Gun deaths, earthquakes, tsunamis, wars, cancer, 9/11, where do we stop? We avoid lists. What’s wrong with pointing to a source instead of copying it? In any case, I’m not interested in a long discussion on this.

453:. The reader's understanding is not enhanced by knowing the names of the deceased. By all means, analyze the ages or genders of the dead, but knowing that "Fred Funk from Fooville" died has no encyclopedic value. 126:), and, as the victim list grows, the argument of each victim's individual role as being "significant" in a mass-casualty event (e.g., a plane crash, 9/11, etc...) is typically weaker the bigger the list gets. -- 2010:

There is no objection to the British Columbia half staff reaction. Australia stuck it to the US with a gun control comment. No country in the world commended the police except the Black nation of Nigeria.

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previous discussion about included reactions. The reactions of people like the sheriff, governor, and president are relevant but the reactions of other politicians is not unless they're somehow relevant

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list, other such lists exist. Additionally, we live in the era of BS and conspiracy theories about "Crisis actors", so it is worth giving a name to people who died in horrific incidents such as this.

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seems to define modern shootings as after the "early 1900s and prior". It should also be noted that the article doesn't make a big deal about the "lone gunman" aspect of this or previous shootings.

2342:) Even an article calling attention to the earlier, worse massacres of blacks or Native Americans suggests we resolve the issue by calling it "the deadliest shooting in recent or modern history." ( 420: 400: 2049:

It doesn't matter whether they're a minority opinion or whether it's unusual (unless, of course, it's directly related to the event such as ISIL's claims that he was acting on their behalf).

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So you believe the names of the victims of the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history is not noteworthy content in an encylopedia article about their murders? Can you please explain that?

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This at first may seem an odd conclusion for me to reach: the number of !votes in favour of "individual" significantly exceeds those in favour of "modern US History." But Knowledge is

1833: 2941:, it was the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history"? I'm only half kidding. If we need to cite it to somebody, then let's cite it to somebody. There are plenty of sources. -- 696:

encyclopedia for information. A tiny percentage will look for the names. Those that are interested in the names, can click a link. What is wrong with pointing to a list elsewhere?

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and even that, based on the number of sources including said names, support inclusion. We should echo the reliable sources and list their names and occupation in said article.

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Knowledge doesn't list people who die in plane crashes etc, even though the media often does. Knowledge policy is the main guideline, not what the media does or does not do.--

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be added as a reference to that last sentence in the section in order to guide sufficiently motivated readers to an explicit and reliably sourced discussion of the question.

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No encyclopedic value whatsoever. (Btw supporters should actually say WHY they support adding it to this article, if they want their opinion/vote to be taken seriously.)

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the article. As GaidinBDJ said, there was a lot of discussion about this and there is a problem when reactions from foreign politicians are included. These usually fail

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Stop at 100. It's a naturally memorable delineator, with its third digit, and roughly about the number that fills up an entire screen. Browser settings vary, of course.

266:. Consensus can change, but it shouldn't be tucked away on one article. This is premature given the RfC linked above, and I would support closing this section as such. 1583:. 32nd floor is perhaps 9*32yds = ~290yds high, and concert area is 390yds at ground level, making linear distance from room ~490yds as the hypoteneuse of a triangle. 1459:

This source is probably not reliable but the actual recording is. I'm not sure about this but just letting you editors know that a change of wording may be necessary.

1848:] yards. Meh. Use a range for distance given the area and that attendees fled to the fenceline? I've not seen an RS that's quoted a crowd size much lower than 22000. 2864: 904: 674: 644: 616: 553: 377: 1960:. We are now long beyond the stage where we need to know what Nigerian politicians said about the shooting, it is routine condolences and adds nothing of value.-- 1328:

They also have had their lives and history delved into by media outlets, so we would be doing nothing that was not already done by the media themselves, negating

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Don't use the superlative in the lede, since emphasizing the fact that a mass shooting is the deadliest in the modern American history may cause contagion (cf.

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The argument for "individual" is instead one predicated on the lack of clarity in the word "modern." While this argument may have some weight to it in general,

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for a lack of passion. No hobbies, volunteer work, favourite songs and such. Just name, age and town. Dry and basic ID, purely to satisfy "Who died this time?"

160:. While it may be necessary to revisit the question here after that RfC closes, we should go ahead and get a consensus for what to do here in the meantime. 2926: 2327: 1983: 1957: 1923: 2863:. Cowboy era guns do not produce mass shootings like the one in Las Vegas. Some people have said that Gilbert Twigg is the "first modern mass shooter". 122:(WP:BIO1E), whereby a person typically needs to have a "significant" role in the event to be classified as "notable" under either (for the purposes of 2466:: saying 'modern' is vague. Who are we to state when the modern period started? (I would say c the end of the first world war; others may disagree). 2315: 1845: 1127:

And just for the record I have opposed such lists whenever asked the question, whether the victims were gay/straight, black/white, US/UK or whatever.

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in August 1903. There was no rhyme or reason for doing this and Twigg's conduct had previously been a source of worry, as with many mass shooters.--

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looks at why the US mainstream media is afraid of being accused of insensitivity if it does not include events like Wounded Knee and the

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where there is a list of the victims' names, but it doesn't alter my view that a list of this kind is unencyclopedic and unnecessary.--

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It is the coroner's job to release the name of every person who dies, regardless of the circumstances. This doesn't make it notable. –

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Ian is incorrect because I did not ask him why it was removed. I merely saw that he owns the article so I was asking his permission.

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I believe that naming victims is part of the encyclopedic coverage of an event like this. Regarding policy, I think two sections of

2717:(or qualify with start year to be precise) - this is used by most if not of the sources, and I don't think that individual passes 2676: 428: 278:

Victim list should be added but should be organized better. My victim list was a rough draft. Other mass shootings including the

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be false. If you must have verifiable sources then I would suggest you verify the info using the correct sources as I have done.

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What is modern? When does the modern period start? Knowledge policy clearly discourages this type of vague and woolly wording.

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quotes the Sheriff, but the phrasing suggests that those at more than 500 yards may have been outliers. BusinessInsider uses

1325: 2350:. We are bound by Knowledge policy to follow the Reliable Sources even if we think we know better and can say it better. -- 1810:: OR applies to article content. Trying to understand/reconcile duelling facts/claims on the talkpage, on the other hand... 146:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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are key Knowledge policies that should not in most circumstances be deviated from. Any close that opted for clarity over

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There is consensus to describe the shooting as the deadliest in "modern U.S. history," as opposed to "by an individual."

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There is no local consensus for inclusion of the victim list. We typically omit larger victim lists per our policy on

1919: 521: 2379:. Using "modern" just confuses the reader, on multiple levels. Were there guns in ancient Nevada? Is WP redefining 1009:

to the article, or to turn it on its head - what is the article lacking without the list? (Apart from "The list"?)

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next ten awfulest shooting for comparison. We may not like it, but that is how all the Reliable Sources treat it. --

2787:"the deadliest mass shooting by an individual in modern U.S. history". See my comment below in threaded Discussion. 1652: 3026: 2906: 2634:

the deadliest in modern US history" imply that they include Wounded Knee and maybe earlier massacres in the count.

1824: 1739:. We need numbers and distances to be reported in reliable sources, or they cannot go into the article. Thanks. -- 1309: 1046: 941: 585: 525: 497: 279: 263: 214:. These victims are not independently notable. As for what other editors at other articles have decided to do, see 38: 194:

The related Rfc has been closed with "consensus that these scenarios should be handled on a case-by-case basis." –

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to prevent unregistered and newly-resisted accounts from editing. I've adjusted the wording per your suggestion.

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Good point about conspiracy nuts. But, all this does is give them another source of grieving families to harass.

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and !votes must be weighed in light of policy. I cannot see how "individual" could comply with policies such as

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sentence explaining why there has been a debate over this. Personally, I don't see disgraceful actions by the

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about how the article's lede should describe the shooting. The debate focused on whether it should be called "

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http://truepundit.com/video-leaked-las-vegas-swat-audio-indicates-police-gunned-down-stephen-paddock-in-hotel/

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Victims lists in these tragedies are always controversial. There is currently an open RfC on the subject at

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Here are a few. Take your pick. It can be attached to the victim list that should be added to the article.

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in the count, but these were carried out by more than one person and did not involve rapid fire weapons.--

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because they mean very little. Some media sources are worried that they aren't including events like the

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but feel it should be fixed. Is there anyone out there that can edit this section please? Thank you!

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for fewer than 22000 or less than 500 yards (noting that some sources state a closer distance for the

1625: 1611: 1575: 312: 245:- Quite agree. OK to point to a list extra-WP. (As an aside, never liked the wording of NOTMEMORIAL.) 2989: 2177: 2030: 2016: 1707: 1248: 817: 545: 529: 396: 995:"Why does Virginia Tech shooting have a victims list? - Because Orlando nightclub shooting does so." 992:"Why does Orlando nightclub shooting have a victims list? - Because Virginia Tech shooting does so." 3068: 2671: 2579: 2054: 1684: 1635: 1537: 1358: 1299: 1198: 1072: 1029: 475: 198: 3092: 3072: 3053: 3039: 3009: 2982: 2967: 2950: 2910: 2887: 2837: 2820: 2796: 2777: 2757: 2734: 2705: 2664: 2640: 2620: 2599: 2570: 2537: 2517: 2484: 2458: 2434: 2409: 2371: 2359: 2302: 2269: 2250: 2233: 2211: 2181: 2096: 2058: 2034: 2020: 2004: 1977: 1936: 1912: 1885: 1856: 1800: 1770: 1747: 1723: 1687: 1674: 1638: 1619: 1589: 1556: 1541: 1527: 1513: 1487: 1468: 1408: 1383: 1361: 1345: 1282: 1260: 1226: 1202: 1181: 1159: 1142: 1113: 1096: 1076: 1059: 1037: 1018: 971: 953: 930: 908: 889: 873: 853: 837: 780: 757: 741: 726: 705: 690: 678: 663: 648: 634: 620: 579: 557: 479: 462: 441: 408: 381: 367: 343: 324: 295: 254: 237: 201: 186: 134: 2978: 2959: 2946: 2833: 2773: 2454: 2355: 1932: 1797: 1744: 1432: 1341: 1274: 1173: 1138: 1088: 1010: 963: 868: 775: 733: 697: 655: 626: 589: 571: 488: 321: 291: 246: 232: 181: 2684: 2449:

killed plenty of people with a machine gun in an hour of fighting in modern U.S. history. --

1792:- Good point. I've dialed it back to B class until someone can review it for "good." Thanks. -- 1823:: I see what you mean. 500 yards seems to be more commonly used than 400 yards but NYT has both 1271:"article is not about the victims and thus by definition is not an attempt to memorialize them" 222:

to an external list, costing a reader who wants to see the list two clicks (one in, one out). ―

2930: 2768:

clear in context, a modern house may easily be twenty times the age of a modern mobile phone.

2730: 2331: 2278: 2225:– Most sources say "modern United States history", so I think we should just stick with that. 2072: 1952: 1552: 1523: 1460: 1155: 1105: 883: 882:

if that's completely unencylopedic, or only the name part. Definitely not suggesting genders.

858:

Are you suggesting "Female, 19, Pasadena, California"? I think that's a separate discussion. ―

847: 751: 720: 684: 493: 361: 337: 123: 2901:. Maybe more policy needs to be established as to how to express noteworthiness in the lead. 2867: 2856: 2616: 2566: 2476: 2391: 1429: 1318: 609: 509: 1578:: Both old and new sources specifically state that the crowd that was fired into was 22000 304:- Always err on the side of respect and dignity. No compelling reason the complete list of 3088: 2898: 2792: 2497: 2368: 2173: 2026: 2012: 1987:

and local politicians, and to leave out the "me too" reactions from foreign politicians.--

1404: 1256: 949: 119: 115: 110: 3064: 2265: 2076: 2050: 1807: 1681: 1632: 1533: 1355: 1296: 1194: 1068: 998:"Why doesn't 2017 Las Vegas shooting have a victims list - all the other articles do?" 471: 458: 437: 372:

Simple solution so there are no long lists: a collapsible list defaulted to collapsed.

195: 1104:- If we have the details from reliable sources, add them as pat of the history of it. 2974: 2942: 2829: 2769: 2722: 2450: 2351: 2311: 2169: 2068: 1928: 1793: 1779: 1775: 1740: 1736: 1337: 1333: 1329: 1235: 1134: 1028:- This might be included in books on the subject but it isn't really encyclopedic. - 859: 813: 766: 541: 317: 287: 223: 215: 172: 2866:

He was deranged and killed nine people with a shotgun at an outdoor band concert in

2553:- Knowledge is written for the ages. What's modern now, may not be modern later (as 2995: 2873: 2848: 2748:... 'modern' is strongly dominant in WP:RS, looks like about 75% by Google count. 2726: 2606: 2585: 2503: 2446: 2423: 2347: 2288: 2165: 2153: 2142: 2082: 1990: 1963: 1871: 1820: 1756: 1732: 1656: 1548: 1519: 1499: 1475: 1369: 1151: 823: 158:

Knowledge:Village pump (policy)#WP:NOTMEMORIAL and victim lists in tragedy articles

1702: 2718: 2612: 2562: 2554: 2469: 2161: 2157: 2146: 940:

These victims are, as a group, notable as their deaths are notable. We have the

267: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

3084: 2788: 2380: 1518:

There is no proof that he is even dead. The whole crime scene looked staged.--

1400: 1252: 945: 716: 127: 1249:

WP:Notability#Notability_guidelines_do_not_apply_to_content_within_an_article

2992:

as being the same as a mass shooting by an individual, but some people do.--

2261: 1631:

can either of you provide reliable sources that support your calculations? –

1133:, that can be summarised in the text and an external link to a list if apt. 454: 433: 2197:

the deadliest mass shooting committed by an individual in the United States

765:

debates can be "won" by strength of argument), so I think I'll drop out. ―

2172:

close, which I am not convinced is justified in the circumstances. --

1308:

The victims of the article are notable given the fact that the names

1150:

Obviously there should be a victim's list, with their name and age.--

2388:

is too much detail and opinion to "pack" into a phrase in our lead.

2203:". Should the lede say "by an individual" or "modern U.S. history"? 1655:

would probably be better. That said, if there's actually sufficient

732:

No, we do not need to “reflect”. We need to dispassionately relate.

393:- As is the case with almost every other major US shooting article 1218:. A link to a list of the victims should suffice for this article. 719:

in no time. We have to reflect, not just collect, general sources.

2921:

If we can't say it in Knowledge's voice, how about "According to

1238:

are relevant; one applies to this article; the other does not.

1193:

We name the victimizer, but not the victims, which is absurd!--

2277:. Words like "modern" and "recent" are clearly discouraged by 25: 568:...and numerous mainstream reliable sources have published it 1861: 1532:

What signs did you observe that led you to that conclusion?

2201:

the deadliest mass shooting in modern United States history

1624:

We do not publish original research conducted by editors.

1864:

is another graphic of the incident, sorry it is from the

1455:

There's new evidence of it possibly not being a suicide:

332:

Recalling a name, age and hometown isn't memorializing.

1948: 1648: 357: 152: 2346:) Anything other than "modern U.S. history" is purely 1129:. If there is any significant demographic information 816:

for the surviving relatives. Yes I know that there is

2322:), or saying "deadliest in modern American history."( 2240:

Google News search for "deadliest shooting las vegas"

336:. A hundred or more lines is too many, for my taste. 3023:

Category:Mass shootings in the United States by year

2112:

The following discussion is an archived record of a

710:

No, their victims won't be named if they don't kill

334:

It just distinguishes one event's dead from the next

2122:

No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1918:Due to vandalism and similar, the article has been 1478:discussing these claims, we can take a look at it. 2238:Note: By "most sources" I was mostly going by a 496:are, in order, the 2017 Las Vegas shooting, the 1168:"Obviously" isn't a reason. Can you expand on 548:. This is as close to protocol as you can get. 2810:one of the deadliest shootings in U.S. history 1703:https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d92_1509626514 116:recently-deceased, one-event notability people 2418:Rejecting reliable sources (like NPR) on the 2125:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 746:Reflect, relate, relay, recap, whatever. I'm 109:(WP:NOTMEMORIAL); a large list of victims is 8: 1984:Reactions to the Orlando nightclub shooting 1958:Reactions to the Las Vegas concert shooting 1649:a conversion from 450 metres citing the SMH 942:Orlando_nightclub_shooting#List_of_the_dead 494:10 deadliest mass shootings in U.S. history 1705: 1444:The following discussion has been closed. 1425: 1295:coverage to the shooter and the victims. – 846:Are ages and towns worth anything to you? 394: 1121:for reasons given by Hydronium Hydroxide 2808:I guess another option we could use is " 1731:The most important policies we have are 2652:Which sources have you read that use " 1647:. For 490yds, that originally came as 567: 421:2603:301D:1701:8E00:907F:9B7C:DBE8:527 401:2603:301D:1701:8E00:907F:9B7C:DBE8:527 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2656:the deadliest in modern US history"? 2628:individual or lone shooter or similar 1836:from the hotel. Las Vegas Sun states 1651:. Using something along the lines of 901:2605:A000:FFC0:D8:E8B0:35F4:5401:1C0D 878:I'm suggesting name, age, town. Just 671:2605:A000:FFC0:D8:E8B0:35F4:5401:1C0D 641:2605:A000:FFC0:D8:E8B0:35F4:5401:1C0D 613:2605:A000:FFC0:D8:E8B0:35F4:5401:1C0D 550:2605:A000:FFC0:D8:E8B0:35F4:5401:1C0D 506:Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting 374:2605:A000:FFC0:D8:E8B0:35F4:5401:1C0D 7: 2765:Individual or lone gunman or similar 2578:A single individual as opposed to a 2367:. Per the sources identified above. 1778:: Does the GA rating need to go via 1663:), then update away. I just checked 570:. Great. Let's link to one of them. 142:The following discussion is closed. 2105:RfC on shooting description in lede 1828:. Washington Post states that the 1492:The audio is in various places, eg 518:University of Texas tower shooting 24: 360:is too long. Not what I support. 3097:The discussion above is closed. 1413:The discussion above is closed. 894:That discussion has been had in 171:inclusion of the victims list. ― 120:people notable for the one event 29: 2191:A couple weeks ago there was a 1123:(adds nothing to understanding) 118:(WP:BLP1E), and more long-term 2557:notes). We should really say " 1571:Reversion of crowd size / 490m 1302:19:55v, 24 November 2017 (UTC) 1273:why do we need to name them? 1084:- This may change some minds: 514:San Ysidro McDonald's massacre 107:Knowledge not being a memorial 1: 3093:08:47, 15 November 2017 (UTC) 3073:17:04, 11 November 2017 (UTC) 3021:consider the exclusions from 2797:08:47, 15 November 2017 (UTC) 2389: 2182:18:07, 29 December 2017 (UTC) 2097:06:09, 28 December 2017 (UTC) 2059:02:42, 28 December 2017 (UTC) 2035:23:29, 27 December 2017 (UTC) 2021:23:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC) 2005:07:00, 23 December 2017 (UTC) 1978:06:48, 23 December 2017 (UTC) 1937:22:37, 19 December 2017 (UTC) 1913:20:55, 19 December 2017 (UTC) 1886:13:46, 28 November 2017 (UTC) 1857:12:25, 28 November 2017 (UTC) 1801:14:40, 28 November 2017 (UTC) 1771:06:07, 28 November 2017 (UTC) 1748:23:20, 27 November 2017 (UTC) 1724:17:25, 27 November 2017 (UTC) 1688:16:24, 27 November 2017 (UTC) 1675:14:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC) 1639:13:31, 27 November 2017 (UTC) 1620:13:24, 27 November 2017 (UTC) 1590:11:00, 27 November 2017 (UTC) 1557:23:12, 25 November 2017 (UTC) 1542:23:19, 20 November 2017 (UTC) 1409:00:36, 25 November 2017 (UTC) 1384:06:55, 25 November 2017 (UTC) 1362:04:15, 25 November 2017 (UTC) 1346:04:03, 25 November 2017 (UTC) 1283:14:07, 24 November 2017 (UTC) 1261:11:04, 24 November 2017 (UTC) 1227:08:37, 24 November 2017 (UTC) 1203:14:38, 12 November 2017 (UTC) 1182:09:28, 12 November 2017 (UTC) 1160:18:12, 10 November 2017 (UTC) 729:01:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 202:19:59, 24 November 2017 (UTC) 135:17:23, 27 December 2017 (UTC) 124:notability in lists of people 3054:22:45, 7 November 2017 (UTC) 3040:04:13, 5 November 2017 (UTC) 3010:17:04, 2 November 2017 (UTC) 2983:20:58, 1 November 2017 (UTC) 2968:19:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC) 2951:21:07, 1 November 2017 (UTC) 2911:19:40, 1 November 2017 (UTC) 2888:05:20, 1 November 2017 (UTC) 2838:23:43, 31 October 2017 (UTC) 2821:17:48, 31 October 2017 (UTC) 2778:18:13, 5 November 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1060:20:23, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 1038:13:36, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 1019:13:32, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 972:12:45, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 954:12:33, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 931:11:38, 19 October 2017 (UTC) 909:03:17, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 890:01:33, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 874:00:46, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 854:00:39, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 838:05:38, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 781:01:46, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 758:01:50, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 742:01:38, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 727:01:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 706:00:45, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 691:00:34, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 679:18:01, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 664:17:25, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 649:17:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 635:16:31, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 621:16:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 580:15:39, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 560:14:33, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 558:03:32, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 480:01:16, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 463:00:45, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 442:00:45, 17 October 2017 (UTC) 409:23:04, 16 October 2017 (UTC) 382:02:37, 19 October 2017 (UTC) 368:00:38, 18 October 2017 (UTC) 344:21:34, 16 October 2017 (UTC) 325:19:41, 16 October 2017 (UTC) 296:18:46, 16 October 2017 (UTC) 255:18:19, 16 October 2017 (UTC) 238:18:16, 16 October 2017 (UTC) 187:18:16, 16 October 2017 (UTC) 18:Talk:2017 Las Vegas shooting 2785:Combine options to produce: 522:Edmond post office shooting 286:have lists of the victims - 3116: 2494:This Time magazine article 2444:Individual and in the U.S. 2422:is the very definition of 2420:basis of your own opinions 1131:(age, gender, nationality) 1047:Orlando nightclub shooting 1005:What does their inclusion 526:2015 San Bernardino attack 498:Orlando nightclub shooting 280:Orlando nightclub shooting 264:Orlando nightclub shooting 1172:you think it's obvious? 163:Please !vote whether you 3099:Please do not modify it. 2119:Please do not modify it. 1782:and independent review? 1447:Please do not modify it. 1415:Please do not modify it. 284:2014 Isla Vista killings 144:Please do not modify it. 2168:would ultimately be an 2561:" though for clarity. 2320:local ABC News channel 1643:For 22000 crowd size, 1422:Perhaps not a suicide? 1326:including the coroner. 715:Knowledge'd be a mere 502:Virginia Tech shooting 272:2:41 pm, Today (UTC−4) 2746:just follow the cites 2527:This NBC News article 2283:Wounded Knee Massacre 1236:What Knowledge is not 429:few or no other edits 42:of past discussions. 2990:7th Cavalry Regiment 2047:to the event itself. 1474:When and if there's 1269:If, as you say, the 1125:and Chaheel Riens. 530:Binghamton shootings 431:outside this topic. 2927:The Washington Post 2803:Threaded discussion 2742:Modern U.S. History 2715:modern U.S. history 2648:Hydronium Hydroxide 2365:Modern U.S. history 2308:Modern U.S. history 2223:Modern U.S. history 2114:request for comment 1838:more than 500 yards 1788:Hydronium Hydroxide 1629:Hydronium Hydroxide 1596:Hydronium Hydroxide 1480:NorthBySouthBaranof 3036:HydroniumHydroxide 2702:HydroniumHydroxide 2637:HydroniumHydroxide 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