1436:
in the article does not include the 'colluding' charge. They did not provide link to full text of the statement. This is why I said the article was questionable. No other secondary sources said the lawmakers made such an accusation as far as I can see (e.g., BBC, RTHK). vox cited the accusation, but emphasised it was according to the report of HKFP. Guardian mentioned the accusation, but did not say it was from the lawmakers. Actually, I would say it would be foolish for a politician to make a clear-cut 'collusion' accusation. Politicians always fudge and obfuscate, to avoid possible legal consequences (among others). Unfortunately I am not able to find the original text of the statement. I'd be interesting to have a read if you have it.
1224:. While in 2019, the police walked away and arrested no one, in 2014 the same thing happend: a group of men dressed in white attacked peaceful and unarmed demonstrators out of the blue. Police did make arrests at the time, showing 19 had known triade background. In this event, the police is shown to walk away from the scene of the crime (again by live video footage), so 0 arrests were made. However, the events have been so similar in the way it happened, and the clothes people wore and have happened time and time again that even the BBC is calling it an attack by triade members.
1451:
of people surrounding a person', and it puzzled me why HKFP found it the other way around. In my opinion, if such a way to report the event is not manipulation, then it shows poor judgement; neither is a vote of confidence. This sort of subtle difference is exactly what I said: these media know very well the boundary between false and misleading. They use the arrangement of the paragraph, the layout of the webpage, the shades of words, to convey information beyond facts, to change the perception of the readers.
31:
1689:
police to investigate as it is a shame to them). Also, many
Fujianese diaspora in Hong Kong are 2nd or even 3rd generation Hong Konger, so it need a real scientific survey to account their political spectrum and their province of origin (or ancestral home). I would boldly say there is no linkage to ancestral home, but may be they are new migrants or not. Even the thugs of North Point and Tsuen Wan in the recent events are alleged Fujianese .
910:. While in 2019, the police walked away and arrested no one, in 2014 the same thing happend: a group of men dressed in white attacked peaceful and unarmed demonstrators out of the blue. Police did make arrests at the time, showing 19 had known triade background. Really, to say that this is unproven, are the words of someone that has done no effort in finding out the truth and is simply (knowingly or not) repeating Chinese propaganda.
270:, a channel called "China uncensored" and VOA. These are one and all non-reliable sources for anything. If they said it was raining I'd check a window. And again, I question the relevance to the discussion. And I mean, I think "escalation" is the better word choice. I'd just ask you avoid using discussions of wording to insert irrelevant propaganda websites.
1688:
where the red shirt men existed, are used to call "little
Shanghai", which in recent (10? 20 ? years) became "little Fujian". While in Yuen Long, the white shirt mob are alleged to link to indigenous New Territories people as well as triad gang. (despite after 21 July, the indigenous people had urged
1558:
mentions how some "counter-demonstrations" were organized by
Fujianese associations, but only in passing. I've noticed that some media coverage mentions this nuance as well; that some Fujianese neighborhoods (rather than just "mainlander" or "pro-Beijing" people) are resisting attacks by protestors.
1450:
As for the second article, I did not say the article denied the travellers were attacked. I was saying it mentioned 'surrounded' many more times than 'attacked' (and actually 'attacked' was used in a very obscured location). I think it's common sense that an 'attack' is more newsworthy than 'a group
520:
The mainland travellers in the article below were actually attacked and beaten, but in the majority part of this article, the fact that they were attacked was obscured (with a lot of efforts, if you ask me). Rather, the fact that they were 'surrounded' was given many mentions. Why is the latter more
445:
In addition, this is not about the extradition bill. That must also be quite clear, since it has been shelved. As a reminder, HK has treaties with some 20+ countries, to whom it is OBLIGED to extradite. These include the US and the UK, both of which prosecute people like
Assange, Manning or Snowden.
1435:
About the first article, of course I understand the meaning of the quote. (Update: looking back at my original comment, I realize I did say HKFP made the claim. This was wrong. But the following argument remains the same) However, no supported evidence is given in the article. The other text quoted
1188:
I have to agree that my tone has not been kind, so here goes just arguing the facts. I will assume good faith in that Ltyl has not checked the facts, which is contrary to what Ltyl said, but, no matter. Let's discuss the facts here and now before we move on. So, please do not edit the article until
1237:
So, the example of demonstrators using violence on 'mainland
Chinese travellers', is shown to be that these mainland Chinese dressed in white forced open a shutter and attacked unarmed, unwitting peaceful demonstrators en masse out of the blue. On top of that, the police turned and walked away. We
441:
You must put aside your personal beliefs and this page has to be factual. THe initial demonstrations have now become riots. Policemen have been choked, attacked with their own batons, set on fire and beaten. This is all documented. The rioters held and abused people against their will. Again, well
1465:
In the wiki spirit of assuming good faith, I should add that there is another possible reason for HKFP to report it that way - to use less charged words to describe the event so that readers can react with more reason than emotion. However, I have to admit I doubt that. HKFP is not well-known for
1042:
There are plenty of reliable sources that support that Black Shirts have engaged in violence, forcible confinement of mainland travelers and vandalism. There's also plenty of reliable sources that the white shirts were triad members. Both things can be true. It's fully possible for two sides of a
812:
Unbiassed movies show that groups of whitely dressed people appeared out of nowhere started beating unarmed peaceful demonstrators and that the propaganda from
Beijing is trying to make people believe that the whitely dressed people are normal travellers and that Beijing has a looooong history of
130:
The lead section states that "demonstrations against the bill began in March and April, then escalated in June." So there will cause confusion if there is another section titled "Escalation". Yes there are many escalations in a movement but it would be unwise to repeatedly use "escalation" after
1723:
However, these background info are difficult to dig out source to prove they are fact,(may be there are some published opinions on newspaper). So, i would say no on including background "ethnic" info of the protesters and counter-demonstrators . Triad linkage may be included as it is a sourced
1108:
Agreed that it's off-topic, but I'd like to response to 2019outlaweD's false accusations for the record: All of my edits used reliable sources. If you say they were
Chinese propaganda, kudos to you, you are saying Chinese "propaganda" are actually reliable. And lastly: I do not dispute HKFP in
880:
The Sun is a tabloid. AlNews is a random vlogger. I can't speak to The Star Online as I don't know much about
Malaysian news sources. But all of this has to do with the white-shirt train station riot and I fail to see the relevance to whether HKFP should be treated as a reliable source. Please
946:
You did not seem to understand the argument. I did not deny the white-shirts were triads. I did not even question the validity of the collusion allegation in this particular argument. I only stated that the allegation made in the article was not supported by the evidence presented in the same
1276:
There is, in fact only evidence of the black shirts vandalism. This vandalism keeps being called violence in
Chinese propaganda. I am not saying that demonstrators are saints, but we see time and time again that mass demonstrations of 1,7 million people in Hong Kong are peaceful and forcible
1714:, but by proportion they are minority among migrants), which they are loyal to CCP and DAB. Also more urban legend on transporting elderly from nursing home and ask them to vote for DAB, which some of the elderly are borderline mentally disable (but their voter status not yet cancelled.
1325:
But anyway, let's tick to reliable news. They are also paid by
Beijing. So, we see violence paid for by Beijing and violence paid for by Beijing, but for some reason unapparent to me, this article needs to state that the demonstrators were violent, without any credible source saying
1238:
see all this in live camera footage. And, all newspapers report the almost 100% similarity with other attacks of men dressed in white coming from mainland China, that turned out to be Triade members, leading every source I saw to believe this attack was also made by triade members.
686:
Do you know that the Communist party shot down peaceful student demonstrators with tanks? While the communist partymembers were watching from behind the windows? Thousands of Chinese students died, because tanks were ordered to shoot them. At Tiananmen square in
916:
But remember this: someone tried to get Chinese propaganda into this page and pretended to know it was all just made up, while a 10 second search on any search engine turns up 1000000 sources that say the exact opposite. With video evidence to prove
442:
documented. Please do not glorify common criminals, and wikipedia editors, please do take decisive steps to stop the propaganda coming from whoever they are coming from. There is plenty of video footage and images showing what is really happening.
315:
311:
307:
157:
With the Trump/China trade war causing economic damage, China slowing down economically and Hong Kong still contributing significantly to China's economy, the protestors probably realize they have more leverage. So the escalation makes perfect
1251:
So, can we agree to keep to the facts, and show that the example of violence that you used is in fact a smoking gun, showing mainland China to corrupt police, pay organised criminals and use violence on peaceful protestors? As the sources
437:
Quoting the HKFP, which is anything but "free" must be a joke. That is not a reliable source. In this divided situation best is to rely on factual and unedited footage rather than heresay and opinion pieces from biased media outlets.
1528:
Note: this is an involved editor close. As another involved editor of the thread, i would say talk page is not a forum. There is no external material to fuel any meaningful discussion on the ethnic identities and political spectrum.
531:
Western media knows the boundary between false and misleading much better than the Chinese state-own media, and knows much better how to use the psychology of the readers to convey information beyond facts. On this matter, I find
786:
we must not be an outlet for either propaganda of the black shirt colour revolution or the CCP. Rather we should comment neutrally only on what can be verified in reliable sources - and we must be careful not to let
1387:
1665:
While it's certainly interesting, it might lead down a bit of a rabbit hole regarding whether regional groupings of the Han ethnicity should be treated as distinct ethnicities. Suggest proceeding with caution.
1405:
It has been widely reported by many reliable sources that the mainland Chinese media, wholly controlled by the Chinese government, is engaging in a disinformation campaign against the Hong Kong protesters
200:
I'm not certain what these random Youtube links or a missionary website have to do with the topic at hand; they certainly aren't reliable sources nor do they appear to speak to the topic at question here.
1699:
248:
My main argument was definitely not too loose. I gave a source of Time Magazine's YouTube channel saying violence is increasing as far as the protests. The specific title of Time Magazine's video is:
1805:
1555:
1298:
215:
The first YouTube link I gave was from the YouTube channel run by Time magazine which is considered a reliable source and it reported on escalating violence in Hong Kong as far as the protests.
1147:
Those things have been part of the Chinese propaganda since the very beginning and are shown to be untrue by the sources provided in the article and by the additional sources that I provided.
1480:
I'd say that we should definitely treat HKFP as a reliable source but, per standard Knowledge practice, should be careful to identify and attribute opinion as opposed to statements of fact.
795:
as a source is not because they say mean things about the CCP but rather because they have a history of promoting conspiracy theories, have weak fact checking and rarely issue retractions.
1141:
This user has not. But has added unverified information, after claiming to have researched it, but clearly did not. Around 10 second search found around 100000 sources saying the opposite.
1402:– just a selection of countless links that appeared in a quick Google search). This suggests that HKFP is also regarded as a reliable source by the international journalism community.
145:
Are the protests/police getting more violent? If so, a good case can be made that the protests are escalating. It does appears as if the violence is increasing as far as the protests.
1702:, the puppet party of CCP in Hong Kong, are very keen to help new immigrants from Mainland China, which they are generally poor (there is rich internal migrants to Hong Kong such as
115:
believes that "prolongation" is a more accurate section header. I thought it might be wise to discuss this here and see if we can form a consensus for escalation vs prolongation.
1322:
There is, however, an overwhelming amount of articles about violence that the Hong Kong police has used, leading to many, many charges and accusations of breaking hman rights.
232:
Your argument is too loose. You gave some explanations for the first youtube link (whether valid or not), then you claimed all your youtube links were reliable and relevant?
1418:). Yet the anonymous OP, while attacking a Hong Kong-based (uncensored) media outlet, is happy to report the Chinese government's skewed version of events without question.
947:
article, which makes the article unreliable. It's unbelievable I have to explain things like this. Wiki or HK protesters are not helped by --you-- (update: your comments).
631:
I now know that you are both paid by Beijing. This is 100% Chinese propaganda. Triade (organised crime) attacked the demonstrators. Clear and simple. It was in the source.
1090:
But again, this is off-topic for the question of whether HKFP is a reliable source. The balance of evidence seems to suggest it is. However if you want a third opinion
446:
The proposal in question would have allowed extradition for serious crimes punishable with 7+ years of prison and only after a series of reviews at the highest level.
94:
86:
81:
69:
64:
59:
352:- Yes, this does sound better. Alternate wording I can think of is that the protest gained more attention in June due to the massive number of people in attendance.
1383:
1573:"These neighborhoods have elected pro-Beijing lawmakers, who constitute a majority in Hong Kong's Legislative Council. They outnumber the city's 'pan-democrats,'
1415:
1283:
471:
All this innuendo is neither helpful nor appropriate. As already mentioned, cease your disruptive editing or you will be sanctioned. Knowledge works through
1595:
1583:
a minority, or does the former only have a majority in the legislature because of gerrymandering or something? This would be important context to address
373:
218:
In short, the YouTube links I gave were not random. I chose them carefully. Like it or not, YouTube channels are being run by reliable news organizations.
1360:
510:
It's my opinion, but some HKFP articles are indeed questionable. This article made a 'collusion' claim that was not supported by the statements it cited,
1364:
525:
514:
1271:
There are plenty of reliable sources that support that Black Shirts have engaged in violence, forcible confinement of mainland travellers and vandalism
1395:
1399:
1288:
1150:
Assuming good faith is very difficult, knowing that this user has claimed to check sources, but has not and has added what is shown to be untrue.
1778:
As you may know, there was a #metoo gathering yesterday at Chater Garden. I added some info onto the page, you're welcome to make some edits.
1594:, and that Beijing has little experience with grassroots (as opposed to elite) organization, explaining the relative lack of "counterprotest".
1560:
47:
17:
1411:
1391:
1379:
168:
569:
I have also read some Chomsky, definitely worth the read. I am curious to ask ... what do you think Chomsky would have written about the
1316:
People saying that the demonstrators in Hong Kong are violent have been seeing a completely different source for their news, apparently.
1075:
578:
456:
331:
1602:. Can we look for other sources to address the ethnic component of these protests? It seems to mirror the dynamic in Taiwan of how the
1375:
167:
On top of this, the Tiananmen Square massacre was a watershed incident for China's explosive growth of Christianity. - Asia News
330:
How does that sound? (It can be sourced, of course!) Then there is no redundancy or confusion in the wording about escalation.
1797:
449:
Also worth noting the case of Simon Cheng, who, according to the police was caught soliciting prostitute(s) on the mainland.
1793:
913:
Now let's get back to constructive things and let people that are derailing the work on this page get nothing for their time.
847:
Oh, and guess who also told me that the people in white were just normal travellers, victims of the terrorists in Hong Kong?
660:
You know, how? Chill, man. Let the facts speak for themselves. Do you have any comments regarding the two articles I cited?
1550:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
432:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1769:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1503:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
739:
693:
626:
690:
Oh and by the way, those people in black, they attacked peaceful demonstrators. it is on movie. Beijing is lying to you,
1619:
1329:
HKFP is showing the same as the others time and time again. Singling them out is also in Chinese propaganda, by the way.
1144:
Other users have rolled back the changes this user made time and time again. But this user keeps adding the same things.
1363:
makes a "collusion" claim. In fact the article makes no claim itself, it simply quotes the words of some legislators.
526:
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/13/breaking-chaos-hong-kong-riot-police-enter-airport-arrest-anti-govt-protesters/
515:
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/07/22/servants-triads-hong-kong-democrats-claim-police-condoned-mob-attacks-yuen-long
1313:
The list is endless. All with live camera feed. We think of that, the lennon walls in hong kong, the human chain....
577:? Would be curious to hear your perspectives about that! Feel free to reply on my talk page, if you'd like. Thanks.
38:
1817:
1755:
1733:
1675:
1659:
1538:
1524:
1489:
1475:
1460:
1445:
1429:
1341:
1264:
1165:
1153:
But I apologise for he accusation I made of being paid by Beijing. Obviously there is no reason for me think so...
1118:
1103:
1083:
1052:
1030:
1011:
956:
929:
890:
868:
804:
755:
730:
709:
669:
643:
586:
553:
503:
479:
464:
420:
407:
385:
361:
339:
328:"Demonstrations against the bill began in March and April. Record breaking numbers of protesters rallied in June."
279:
261:
241:
227:
210:
187:
140:
124:
1598:
SCMP article mentions how there are 1 million Fujianese in Hong Kong, and how they are specifically organizing
1407:
1351:
Speaking as a local who is familiar with Hong Kong news media: HKFP is indeed regarded as a reliable source.
1079:
791:
biases cloud what is and is not a reliable source. For instance, my well-known opposition to the use of the
778:
I concur that it's important to treat media critically, that's why I'm a strong proponent of liberal use of
582:
460:
335:
1643:
1576:
1371:
1337:
1260:
1161:
1007:
925:
864:
751:
705:
639:
541:
347:
252:
If increasing violence is not escalation, then what is? I also gave some additional ancillary arguments.
1333:
1256:
1157:
1003:
941:
921:
860:
747:
714:
701:
635:
1813:
1781:
1729:
1626:
1534:
1293:
452:
416:
1785:
1751:
1671:
1520:
1485:
1099:
1048:
886:
800:
403:
381:
275:
267:
250:
Hong Kong Leader Says No Need For Beijing To Intervene In Protests Amid Escalating Violence | TIME
206:
170:
So this ratches up pressure on the Chinese Communist Party which is trying to squelch Christianity.
120:
1789:
726:
597:
357:
1515:
discussion of the ethnic identities of Han sub-communities is outside the scope of this article
1467:
1452:
1437:
1352:
1110:
1065:
1022:
948:
661:
564:
545:
233:
1425:
779:
499:
257:
223:
183:
533:
306:
I agree with keeping the wording of "August 2019: Escalation" especially given the numerous
136:
1809:
1725:
1584:
1568:
1530:
718:
412:
1367:
indeed plainly states that the man was attacked, so I don't see what the issue is here.
900:
You can literally see a horde of people in white clothes force open a shutter and charge.
398:
no indication that HKFP should not be treated as a RS but a lot of off topic digressions
322:
from "Demonstrations against the bill began in March and April, then escalated in June"
1747:
1667:
1603:
1516:
1481:
1471:
1456:
1441:
1370:
Since the protests began, HKFP has been cited by many international news outlets (e.g.
1180:
1114:
1095:
1091:
1061:
1044:
1026:
952:
882:
796:
783:
665:
549:
487:
399:
377:
271:
237:
202:
116:
1277:
confinement of mainland travellers... come on, you mean Chinese security agent, right?
1703:
1611:
1580:
1303:
1221:
1071:
907:
722:
601:
574:
472:
353:
148:
Are the protests getting larger in terms of attendants and/or becoming more frequent?
492:
The Guardian, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Time, BBC News, Quartz, Reuters.
1711:
1707:
1420:
1192:
Here are the top 3 sources, all showing live images of a camera feed of the event.
838:
So, who would voice a position like: "the people in white are peaceful travellers"?
537:
495:
253:
219:
179:
782:. I know this can be frustrating during evolving events, but in order to maintain
813:
paying triade members to do just this sort of thing by people dressed in white...
1685:
1564:
792:
301:
132:
110:
46:
If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
1359:, seems to misunderstand the use of quotations in journalism. He alleges that
1308:
1205:
1200:
1195:
832:
826:
821:
816:
249:
216:
176:
174:
171:
146:
1684:
I don't think there is any real ethnic group in statistical sense. However,
853:
They carefully explained that this information is everywhere on state media.
476:
1590:
The article also notes now the pro-establishment group is much less adroit
999:
I am going to stop going back this user's edits. It is a clear as anything.
1135:
I apologise to Ltyl for saying that I suspect the user is paid by Beijing.
841:
Who would refuse to look at evidence, or look up evidence, when in doubt?
173:
And Christians are playing a significant role in the Hong Kong protests.
1607:
178:
So the stakes are high and often in such situations, escalation occurs.
107:
It does certainly seem that things have been escalating in August, yet
1138:
However, I have shown evidence of the truth by means of a live video.
881:
restrict comments to the topic of discussion as this is not a forum.
1508:
Fujianese community, demographics, and ethnic component to protests
1070:
This is true, but it brings up the question of proportionality and
1615:
1571:
in general are full of these communities. Interestingly, it says:
544:
a very good reminder that we should look at media very carefully.
1319:
It is portrayed like that on Chinese state media (=propaganda).
25:
376:
about moving Chinese government reactions back to this page.
1806:
List of August 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests
1556:
List of August 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests
1466:
this as far as I know. But each reporter can be different.
835:. The police is paid by Beijing. Why would they walk away?
966:
That is not what you did. You took it out of the article
488:
cited by multiple trusted and notable news media outlets
1356:
1177:
I edit the above earlier, to make things more readable.
993:
989:
985:
981:
977:
Who would call objective media out to be western media?
971:
967:
391:
Is this a joke? HKFP should not be allowed as a source
320:
Perhaps we can change the language in the lede section
980:
Who would re-add Chinese propaganda to this article,
974:, saying that there was no source in WESTERN media.
1724:accusation by the local critics and academician .
1698:In general sense, urban legend had stated that
1579:represent a majority of HK residents, and the
986:after it had been rolled back after this edit!
521:news worthy than the former? It's beyond me.
8:
1779:
608:The following discussion has been closed.
593:
450:
1183:said not to do so, so I am trying again.
411:Note, this is an involved editor close.
831:And last but not least, the police is
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
7:
1774:Added info for yesterday's gathering
1546:The following discussion is closed.
428:The following discussion is closed.
573:in terms of organisations like the
24:
1622:, and ethnic minority interests.
1220:If live video isn't good enough,
850:-That's right, police in Beijing!
18:Talk:2019–2020 Hong Kong protests
1765:The discussion above is closed.
1499:The discussion above is closed.
1043:conflict to both do bad things.
368:Link to discussion on other page
29:
475:, not by unilateral decisions.
1575:": so does this mean that the
1:
903:What more do you need to see?
1610:ethnic interests, while the
809:Let's end this here and now.
1818:16:37, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
1798:07:00, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
1756:17:05, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
1734:23:42, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
1676:13:22, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
1660:12:41, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
1539:16:34, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
1525:12:39, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
1490:12:16, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
1476:10:43, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
1461:10:12, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
1446:10:12, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
1430:09:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
1365:The second article he cites
1342:07:30, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
1265:21:07, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
1166:17:14, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
1119:16:25, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
1104:16:13, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
1084:02:49, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
1053:16:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
1031:16:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
1012:16:07, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
957:15:47, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
930:15:54, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
891:15:34, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
869:15:28, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
805:14:39, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
756:14:30, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
731:13:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
710:11:46, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
670:12:42, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
644:11:34, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
587:00:11, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
554:11:20, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
504:07:56, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
480:20:12, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
465:20:08, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
421:16:31, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
408:12:37, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
386:12:17, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
362:10:48, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
340:22:52, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
280:12:14, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
262:21:49, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
242:19:47, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
228:19:07, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
211:14:51, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
188:14:30, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
141:12:21, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
125:12:09, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
1834:
372:I've started a discussion
266:A missionary website, the
103:Prolongation vs Escalation
1773:
1563:NPR article mentions how
310:in August as well as the
1767:Please do not modify it.
1548:Please do not modify it.
1501:Please do not modify it.
1189:we reach consensus Ltyl.
856:It is called propaganda.
719:Knowledge is not a forum
611:Please do not modify it.
486:As a reference, HKFP is
430:Please do not modify it.
308:police station blockades
740:Personal attack removed
694:Personal attack removed
627:Personal attack removed
312:5 August general strike
1577:pro-establishment camp
994:hashing out facts here
571:manufacture of consent
324:to something like this
1280:Anyway, some sources:
1269:Last, but not least,
1109:general is reliable.
833:actively walking away
542:Manufacturing Consent
42:of past discussions.
844:It is a short list.
717:: Please, note that
1400:Wall Street Journal
1388:The Washington Post
1309:Some Indian channel
268:Heritage Foundation
1746:That makes sense.
1549:
431:
1800:
1784:comment added by
1547:
1361:this HKFP article
773:
772:
743:
697:
630:
467:
455:comment added by
429:
100:
99:
54:
53:
48:current talk page
1825:
1804:May be added to
1656:
1639:
1592:organizationally
1396:Evening Standard
1376:Business Insider
1069:
945:
737:
691:
624:
613:
594:
568:
534:Edward S. Herman
351:
305:
114:
78:
56:
55:
33:
32:
26:
1833:
1832:
1828:
1827:
1826:
1824:
1823:
1822:
1776:
1771:
1770:
1710:, or kidnapped
1658:
1641:
1624:
1585:silent majority
1569:New Territories
1552:
1543:
1542:
1541:
1510:
1505:
1504:
1416:The Independent
1222:here is the BBC
1174:
1059:
990:and these edits
939:
908:here is the BBC
609:
562:
434:
425:
424:
423:
393:
370:
345:
316:airport sit-ins
299:
108:
105:
74:
30:
22:
21:
20:
12:
11:
5:
1831:
1829:
1821:
1820:
1775:
1772:
1764:
1763:
1762:
1761:
1760:
1759:
1758:
1739:
1738:
1737:
1736:
1718:
1717:
1716:
1715:
1693:
1692:
1691:
1690:
1679:
1678:
1655:
1652:
1649:
1646:
1638:
1635:
1632:
1629:
1623:
1604:pan-green camp
1553:
1544:
1527:
1514:
1513:
1512:
1511:
1509:
1506:
1498:
1497:
1496:
1495:
1494:
1493:
1492:
1448:
1349:
1348:
1347:
1346:
1345:
1344:
1330:
1327:
1323:
1320:
1317:
1314:
1311:
1306:
1301:
1296:
1291:
1286:
1281:
1278:
1274:
1267:
1253:
1244:
1243:
1242:
1241:
1240:
1239:
1230:
1229:
1228:
1227:
1226:
1225:
1213:
1212:
1211:
1210:
1209:
1208:
1203:
1198:
1193:
1190:
1178:
1173:
1170:
1169:
1168:
1154:
1151:
1148:
1145:
1142:
1139:
1136:
1132:
1131:
1130:
1129:
1128:
1127:
1126:
1125:
1124:
1123:
1122:
1121:
1094:can weigh in.
1088:
1087:
1086:
1021:Unbelievable.
1019:
1018:
1017:
1016:
1015:
1014:
1000:
997:
978:
975:
937:
936:
935:
934:
933:
932:
918:
914:
911:
904:
901:
878:
877:
876:
875:
874:
873:
872:
871:
857:
854:
851:
848:
842:
839:
836:
829:
824:
819:
814:
810:
771:
770:
769:
768:
767:
766:
765:
764:
763:
762:
761:
760:
759:
758:
744:
698:
688:
679:
678:
677:
676:
675:
674:
673:
672:
651:
650:
649:
648:
647:
646:
632:
615:
614:
605:
604:
592:
591:
590:
589:
572:
557:
556:
523:
522:
512:
511:
507:
506:
483:
482:
435:
426:
410:
397:
396:
395:
394:
392:
389:
369:
366:
365:
364:
325:
321:
297:
296:
295:
294:
293:
292:
291:
290:
289:
288:
287:
286:
285:
284:
283:
282:
193:
192:
191:
190:
162:
161:
160:
159:
152:
151:
150:
149:
131:"escalation".
104:
101:
98:
97:
92:
89:
84:
79:
72:
67:
62:
52:
51:
34:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1830:
1819:
1815:
1811:
1807:
1803:
1802:
1801:
1799:
1795:
1791:
1787:
1783:
1768:
1757:
1753:
1749:
1745:
1744:
1743:
1742:
1741:
1740:
1735:
1731:
1727:
1722:
1721:
1720:
1719:
1713:
1709:
1705:
1704:Zhang Jingchu
1701:
1697:
1696:
1695:
1694:
1687:
1683:
1682:
1681:
1680:
1677:
1673:
1669:
1664:
1663:
1662:
1661:
1653:
1650:
1647:
1645:
1642:
1636:
1633:
1630:
1628:
1625:
1621:
1617:
1613:
1612:pan-blue camp
1609:
1605:
1601:
1597:
1593:
1588:
1586:
1582:
1581:pan-democrats
1578:
1574:
1570:
1566:
1562:
1557:
1551:
1540:
1536:
1532:
1526:
1522:
1518:
1507:
1502:
1491:
1487:
1483:
1479:
1478:
1477:
1473:
1469:
1464:
1463:
1462:
1458:
1454:
1449:
1447:
1443:
1439:
1434:
1433:
1432:
1431:
1427:
1423:
1422:
1417:
1413:
1409:
1403:
1401:
1397:
1393:
1389:
1385:
1381:
1377:
1373:
1368:
1366:
1362:
1358:
1354:
1343:
1339:
1335:
1331:
1328:
1324:
1321:
1318:
1315:
1312:
1310:
1307:
1305:
1302:
1300:
1297:
1295:
1292:
1290:
1287:
1285:
1282:
1279:
1275:
1272:
1268:
1266:
1262:
1258:
1254:
1250:
1249:
1248:
1247:
1246:
1245:
1236:
1235:
1234:
1233:
1232:
1231:
1223:
1219:
1218:
1217:
1216:
1215:
1214:
1207:
1204:
1202:
1199:
1197:
1194:
1191:
1187:
1186:
1185:
1184:
1182:
1179:
1176:
1175:
1171:
1167:
1163:
1159:
1155:
1152:
1149:
1146:
1143:
1140:
1137:
1134:
1133:
1120:
1116:
1112:
1107:
1106:
1105:
1101:
1097:
1093:
1089:
1085:
1081:
1077:
1076:65.60.163.223
1073:
1067:
1063:
1058:
1057:
1056:
1055:
1054:
1050:
1046:
1041:
1040:
1039:
1038:
1037:
1036:
1035:
1034:
1033:
1032:
1028:
1024:
1013:
1009:
1005:
1001:
998:
995:
991:
987:
983:
979:
976:
973:
969:
965:
964:
963:
962:
961:
960:
959:
958:
954:
950:
943:
931:
927:
923:
919:
915:
912:
909:
905:
902:
899:
898:
897:
896:
895:
894:
893:
892:
888:
884:
870:
866:
862:
858:
855:
852:
849:
846:
845:
843:
840:
837:
834:
830:
828:
825:
823:
820:
818:
815:
811:
808:
807:
806:
802:
798:
794:
790:
785:
781:
777:
776:
775:
774:
757:
753:
749:
745:
741:
736:
735:
734:
733:
732:
728:
724:
720:
716:
713:
712:
711:
707:
703:
699:
695:
689:
685:
684:
683:
682:
681:
680:
671:
667:
663:
659:
658:
657:
656:
655:
654:
653:
652:
645:
641:
637:
633:
628:
623:
622:
621:
620:
619:
618:
617:
616:
612:
607:
606:
603:
599:
596:
595:
588:
584:
580:
579:65.60.163.223
576:
575:50 Cent Party
570:
566:
561:
560:
559:
558:
555:
551:
547:
543:
539:
535:
530:
529:
528:
527:
519:
518:
517:
516:
509:
508:
505:
501:
497:
493:
489:
485:
484:
481:
478:
474:
470:
469:
468:
466:
462:
458:
457:139.5.158.152
454:
447:
443:
439:
433:
422:
418:
414:
409:
405:
401:
390:
388:
387:
383:
379:
375:
367:
363:
359:
355:
349:
348:65.60.163.223
344:
343:
342:
341:
337:
333:
332:65.60.163.223
329:
323:
319:
317:
313:
309:
303:
281:
277:
273:
269:
265:
264:
263:
259:
255:
251:
247:
246:
245:
244:
243:
239:
235:
231:
230:
229:
225:
221:
217:
214:
213:
212:
208:
204:
199:
198:
197:
196:
195:
194:
189:
185:
181:
177:
175:
172:
169:
166:
165:
164:
163:
156:
155:
154:
153:
147:
144:
143:
142:
138:
134:
129:
128:
127:
126:
122:
118:
112:
102:
96:
93:
90:
88:
85:
83:
80:
77:
73:
71:
68:
66:
63:
61:
58:
57:
49:
45:
41:
40:
35:
28:
27:
19:
1780:— Preceding
1777:
1766:
1712:Xiao Jianhua
1708:Gong Hongjia
1600:as Fujianese
1599:
1591:
1589:
1572:
1554:
1545:
1500:
1419:
1404:
1384:The Guardian
1369:
1350:
1334:2019OutlaweD
1270:
1257:2019OutlaweD
1158:2019OutlaweD
1020:
1004:2019OutlaweD
942:2019OutlaweD
938:
922:2019OutlaweD
879:
861:2019OutlaweD
788:
748:2019OutlaweD
715:2019OutlaweD
702:2019OutlaweD
636:2019OutlaweD
610:
538:Noam Chomsky
524:
513:
491:
490:, including
451:— Preceding
448:
444:
440:
436:
427:
371:
327:
298:
106:
75:
43:
37:
1686:North Point
1614:represents
1606:represents
1565:North Point
793:Epoch Times
598:WP:NOTFORUM
36:This is an
1810:Matthew hk
1726:Matthew hk
1634:Câu lạc bộ
1620:indigenous
1531:Matthew hk
780:WP:TOOSOON
413:Matthew hk
95:Archive 10
1808:instead?
1748:Simonm223
1668:Simonm223
1587:claims.
1517:Simonm223
1482:Simonm223
1357:this edit
1353:User:Ltyl
1181:Simonm223
1096:Simonm223
1062:Simonm223
1045:Simonm223
982:like here
883:Simonm223
797:Simonm223
473:consensus
400:Simonm223
378:Simonm223
272:Simonm223
203:Simonm223
117:Simonm223
87:Archive 6
82:Archive 5
76:Archive 4
70:Archive 3
65:Archive 2
60:Archive 1
1794:contribs
1786:LKRandom
1782:unsigned
1651:tin nhắn
1567:and the
1392:ABC News
1372:Newsweek
1289:AsiaNews
1206:Source 3
1201:Source 2
906:Anyway,
827:Source 3
822:Source 2
723:MarioGom
540:'s book
453:unsigned
354:OceanHok
314:and the
1608:Hokkien
1421:Citobun
1294:Reuters
1196:Source1
1092:WP:RS/N
817:Source1
784:WP:NPOV
496:Wefk423
254:Knox490
220:Knox490
180:Knox490
39:archive
1172:Take 2
1072:WP:DUE
602:WP:NPA
302:Lmmnhn
158:sense.
133:Lmmnhn
111:Lmmnhn
1616:Hakka
1355:, in
1326:that.
1252:show?
687:1989.
16:<
1814:talk
1790:talk
1752:talk
1730:talk
1672:talk
1596:This
1561:This
1535:talk
1521:talk
1486:talk
1472:talk
1468:Ltyl
1457:talk
1453:Ltyl
1442:talk
1438:Ltyl
1426:talk
1338:talk
1299:hkfp
1261:talk
1162:talk
1115:talk
1111:Ltyl
1100:talk
1080:talk
1074:...
1066:Ltyl
1064:and
1049:talk
1027:talk
1023:Ltyl
1008:talk
972:here
970:and
968:here
953:talk
949:Ltyl
926:talk
887:talk
865:talk
801:talk
752:talk
727:talk
721:. --
706:talk
666:talk
662:Ltyl
640:talk
600:and
583:talk
565:Ltyl
550:talk
546:Ltyl
536:and
500:talk
477:El_C
461:talk
417:talk
404:talk
382:talk
374:here
358:talk
336:talk
276:talk
258:talk
238:talk
234:Ltyl
224:talk
207:talk
184:talk
137:talk
121:talk
1700:DAB
1644:信𠴍
1627:俱樂部
1412:NPR
1408:NYT
1380:Vox
1304:BBC
1284:CBS
992:),
917:it.
789:our
1816:)
1796:)
1792:•
1754:)
1732:)
1706:,
1674:)
1618:,
1537:)
1523:)
1488:)
1474:)
1459:)
1444:)
1428:)
1414:,
1410:,
1398:,
1394:,
1390:.
1386:,
1382:,
1378:,
1374:,
1340:)
1332:--
1263:)
1255:--
1164:)
1156:--
1117:)
1102:)
1082:)
1051:)
1029:)
1010:)
1002:--
988:,
955:)
928:)
920:--
889:)
867:)
859:--
803:)
754:)
746:--
729:)
708:)
700:--
668:)
642:)
634:--
585:)
552:)
502:)
463:)
419:)
406:)
384:)
360:)
338:)
326::
318:.
278:)
260:)
240:)
226:)
209:)
186:)
139:)
123:)
91:→
1812:(
1788:(
1750:(
1728:(
1670:(
1657:)
1654:)
1648:(
1640:(
1637:)
1631:(
1533:(
1519:(
1484:(
1470:(
1455:(
1440:(
1424:(
1406:(
1336:(
1273:.
1259:(
1160:(
1113:(
1098:(
1078:(
1068::
1060:@
1047:(
1025:(
1006:(
996:,
984:(
951:(
944::
940:@
924:(
885:(
863:(
799:(
750:(
742:)
738:(
725:(
704:(
696:)
692:(
664:(
638:(
629:)
625:(
581:(
567::
563:@
548:(
498:(
494:–
459:(
415:(
402:(
380:(
356:(
350::
346:@
334:(
304::
300:@
274:(
256:(
236:(
222:(
205:(
182:(
135:(
119:(
113::
109:@
50:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.