Talk:Colossal Cave Adventure

2659:, I don't see any reason to treat this thesis (or, in the US parlance, dissertation) any different from the US/UK ones. Neither are "peer-reviewed" in the way we mean "peer-reviewed" when we talk about academic publications in journals or with presses, and "published" for a thesis/dissertation--well, a dissertation can be published by an academic press, but I don't see any evidence that this one was. In addition, but this is by the by, in Germany and the Netherlands, for instance, dissertations are often published as a book--but not by the same presses and in the same way as academic books are published. So sure, we can accept something from something if there is a good reason to do so, but "it's peer-reviewed and published" is not such a reason, because it's not peer-reviewed and published in the way that an article, edited collection, or monograph is. I think I am really confirming what you said earlier, and I think it is important to make that point here. BTW I have no stake in this article or its content. Oh, 1480:, that statement related to text adventure games does not say they are not video games, but may be considered computer games since they can be played without a monitor. But they can still be video games. The problem that we have had in the past is that being too specific on the line between computer and video games led to edit wars over how to classify games, and project wise, we have taken the stance that all computer games belong in what people recognize as "video games" including games that lack a monitor. As PresN points out, we can be clear CCA was intended as a teletype game, but since has been ported to monitor-based systems. -- 1182: 2520:

review. In Australia, there are supervisors instead of a dissertation committee, and the thesis is evaluated by external examiners who are experts in the field. This is quite similar to the peer review process employed by academic journals and university presses. Even if this process were still not technically considered peer review, I feel there is no reason to exclude a PhD thesis on these grounds, which has undoubtedly undergone a more rigorous review process than many journalistic and popular history sources frequently cited on Knowledge (XXG).

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perfunctory background material and contains several inaccuracies not limited to those already described above, which I doubt the supervisors or examiners would have been equipped to identify seeing as computer game history was likely not the field of anyone involved. I have no doubt the thesis is well executed in relation to its actual academic field, but it is not a high-quality source of information on Colossal Cave Adventure. Sources exist for this info that are far more on point.

2364:. This did two things: 1) said it was "the eponymous" adventure game, which duplicates later in that paragraph where it says "for which it was also the ]." and 2) said it was the "first" adventure game. The same later sentence calls it "the first well-known example of interactive fiction", and for good reason- it wasn't the first. The lede summarizes the body of the article, and this bit is summarizing the end of the first paragraph in "Legacy": 21: 2606:? I am guessing not or you would have seen this "This means that we publish only the analysis, views, and opinions of reliable authors, and not those of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves." I'm not claiming my thesis is perfect, but it has been peer reviewed and published and it is not up to you to judge it it's accuracy. This kind of behaviour is exactly why academics deride Knowledge (XXG). 1315: 565: 145: 54: 1260: 1242: 2278:

version. I actually found this Knowledge (XXG) page while searching for "a maze of twisty passages, all alike", which does tend to stick in ones memory. (I don't remember the word "little" in that phrase.) I suspect that the file was just renamed or something. The interaction on the screen in the photo in this article looks exactly like what I remember. Anyway, "RUN DUNGEO" often started an enjoyable lunch break.

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than the definitions that essentially limited it to arcade and console games. That said, CCA is obviously a text game and was designed and originally played on teletypes, and I wanted to make that clear; unfortunately so far I haven't found a good source that calls that out. For some 70s games sources make a point of it (e.g.

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didn't respond with what you wanted to cite with it, so I added it as a secondary source to the section talking about it being the namesake and (almost) first, along with the source you cited for that information (which was already in the article, but wasn't being used a secondary source for that bit.

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I apologize for assuming that Australian theses are not peer-reviewed; I'm connected to the academic system here in America so I was thinking of that system. Rather than drag this conversation out further, I went ahead and added your paper to the article (this time without the typo in the title). You

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Those are fair points. But you didn't answer my question. Is there a reason I can't cite a source I wrote? It is a published, peer reviewed, secondary source. I have looked all though the documentation about reliable sources and can find nothing that says one can't cite a work just because one is the

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For the original Fortran, and in Knuth's CWEB version, the various treasure points, staying alive, reaching the end-game, exploring the cave thoroughly, etc. only came to 349 points. The special single bonus point was obtained by moving the magazine 'Spelunker Today' from the Anteroom to Witts End.

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specifically calling out that it couldn't be played on a teleprinter), but for many, and it seems this is one, sources just... assume that you know that. Still looking, though, because I think it's important to give context to modern readers what playing the game was actually like at the time and how

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I believe the confusion here is that in Australia, PhD theses are reviewed differently than dissertations are reviewed in the United States. In the U.S., dissertations are reviewed by a committee consisting of faculty members of the university the student is attending, which is not considered a peer

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It's been decades since I last played ADVENT - certainly 20th century - and I only know this because I read the source, but the version I saw (still in FORTRAN) had a trick that gained you an extra point. It may have had something to do with going back to the bear. Can anyone confirm it was in their

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The line between "video game" and "computer game" is extre.ely vague to the point that trying to explitly define it would be a problem...this is either because "video game" had broadly included nonvideo computer games, or where predominately in Europe "computer games" included video games. The terms

1585:

Yeah, additionally while in prior decades there was a distinction made between "computer" games and "video" games, in modern parlance they're equivalent. The definition of "video game" to be a game that involves real-time updating graphics on a monitor isn't one that's really used any more, any more

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Also, what do you intend to cite with it? It doesn't seem to add any new information, so it would be just a secondary cite to something already covered, which is ok. Page 22 has that it was "the precursor for the entire genre of role playing adventure games", so I guess it could be a secondary cite

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says that you can cite a source you wrote yourself, but a phd thesis isn't generally "peer reviewed", in the sense that it's not been formally reviewed by other scholars, as in submitted to a formal review process like a journal or even usually reviewed/critiqued at a conference (your dissertation

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I played it in maybe 1980, 1981, or 1979, on an Apple machine, possibly Apple II. But I didn't recall it being called "Microsoft" anything, but possibly with the word "Cave" in it; maybe with the word "Adventure" in it. I remember it beginning with something like "You are standing outside a cave."

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ever played the Woods version on a monitor between 1977 and 1995, when he stopped updating the Fortran code? Can you explain what exactly changed in the game when the same code was played on a monitor vs a teleprinter that made it into a "video game" instead of a "computer game", as if video games

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But let's look at what you are saying here Indrian. You are saying that a published PhD thesis about video games, with a chapter devoted to the history of video games, which you acknowledge has been through a process of peer review by experts, should not be cited because you think it is in error,

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ADVENT arrived at a time when there were essentially no video monitors. There were no PCs. Silicon Graphics, Jupiter, and Tektronix terminals hadn't been invented. I first played ADVENT on a machine with a 20x8-character gas-discharge display, and a console printer (Supervisory Printed Output, or

2637:

In the future, as a gentle suggestion, if you're adding a source to an article, particularly one you wrote yourself, consider adding it to a bit that's unsourced (note that the lede is the equivalent of the abstract of a paper, and does not generally have references), or else add new information

2300:

It is a fair point you made about the eponymous nature of the game being mentioned in the last sentence of the lead. I somehow failed to notice that. Go me. I am not however aware of any reason I cannot use the source to which you objected. It is a published, peer reviewed academic source which

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I worked in the Microprocessor Development Products division at Tektronix in the early 1980s and we played this game on our TNIX-based systems. (TNIX was Tektronix' proprietary version of UNIX.) It was called "dungeo" on our systems, but was clearly either the exact same game or an embellished

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We are not here to argue about other parts of my thesis. We are discussing one citation for one statement. It seems that now you recognise that my citation was both allowed and a valid citation for that information. This seems to indicate your removal of it was not reasonable. I suggest it be

2253:

The link says "1987 Windows port of the PDP-11 version of Colossal Cave Adventure for DOSBox". Many people will assume that this means DOSBox will need to be installed before the game itself is installed. Actually this .exe installs and sets up DOSBox and the game automatically (similar to a

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That said, a thesis still needs to be evaluated like any other source. In this case, it appears the subject matter is ethnography and ontology as they relate to interactions in Second Life rather than a study of computer game history in general or Colossal Cave in particular. The history is

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Seriously? It is quite frankly ridicuolous to assert that a PhD is not peer reviewed. It is absolutely peer reviewed. A PhD is thoroughly reviewed by the markers. It is the ultimate peer review. It is a declaration that one is a bona fide researcher and an accredited member of the academic

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In any case, since what you had was duplicative and slightly wrong, and cited to 1) and entire book with no page numbers, and 2) a phd thesis (your own), I reverted it. In the end, we don't add sources just to say we have them, we add them to back up information that needs it, and

1376:, it says: "Computer games are not all video games—for example text adventure games, chess, and so on do not depend upon a graphics display." So the WP article on video games implicitly notes that video games are computer games that require a graphics display. ADVENT does not. 2501:

then. So your original remark calling into question my adding a citation from my PhD was completely unecessary and rude. Not presuming good intent at all. In fact it calls to mind "Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is

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Just because you may have played it on a teletype printer, doesn't mean it wasn't also playable on video screens. More importantly, you went through every use of "video game" and replaced that with "computer game" which broke several links and context

1655:

Please provide a diff for the source you put in (at some unstated article or talk page or something). Also please provide an RfC that agrees with your position that a computer game is always a video game even if no video hardware is needed to play the

2301:

contains information about the subject of the article. If I am for some reason in error I would be most obliged if you could direct me to some documentation as to why. Can you please explain why you also removed another citation for this same point?

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expensive compared to teletypes to have every employee on the mainframe have their own, and there wasn't a business need since all the programs were text-based anyway. So, CCA was largely played over teletypes at the time. But: can you prive that

1380:'SPO'). The game output went to the SPO. A completed game required several inches thickness of fanfold paper. You couldn't imagine playing on the display, which was really just for echoing input. So is the claim that printed output is 'video'? 997: 2212:"plugh" teleports you between the Y2 room and the cabin (both ways), like "xyzzy" does with 2 other locations; it's not mentioned because sources don't really talk about it, it's kind of a minor detail that's less remembered than xyzzy. -- 578: 1685:

but even with that, while CCA was originally developed as a teletype game, its legacy is know as a text based video game in broader terms. Hence the short description should reflect how it is readily known and not its original instance.

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As Adventure is not the thrust of the thesis, including it does raise the specter of self promotion. We must assume good faith, of course, but even if the inclusion was innocent, it still casts an unnecssary shadow over the article.

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the use of one, since it had real-time updating graphics. By 1971 there were 1000 computer installations with CRT monitors (though obviously of a different type), and by 1976 there would have been much, much more. Heck,

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In the 360 point version, whenever you visit the location "Y2" there is a 25% chance that you will receive the message: "A hollow voice says 'plugh'". Using this magic word allows you to get well into the cave.

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Third, Linux is an operating system and can be used as an almost free alternative to Microsoft Windows. In fact the Linux kernel underlies Android on mobile phones and also underlies Apple Mac software.

1009: 2366:"The game is the namesake and the first well-known example of an adventure game, as it combined the interactivity of computer programs with the storytelling of literature or role-playing games such as 2753: 1432:

Actually, it does mean that; there were no "video screens" when the game was made. Not even graphics terminals; there were text-mode terminals ("glass teletypes"), but most people didn't have them.

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game setup file). This means the user won't need anything and the game will be running in seconds. Maybe someone can figure a way to mention this without a bunch of words? Thanks!

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committee or ad-hoc readings do not count). I'm not seeing any evidence of the thesis being reviewed at the link, though you would know better: where was it peer reviewed?

1788: 2788: 429: 2813: 2376:. is the journal article "Adventure before adventure games: a new look at Crowther and Woods's seminal program", while is the They Create Worlds book, pp. 383–385. 1613:

Edit- and of course as soon as I type that and specifically go looking for "teleprinter" CCA instead of just CCA sources I find one. Give me a bit to integrate it. --

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allows this source and has also acknowledged that the citation is an accurate citation for the information. I again suggest the citation be returned to the article.

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The article mentions only the MS version of it on the Apple. Could the one on the Apple have had another name, perhaps a name with the word "Cave" in it?

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itself was in C and other languages by 1977, but wasn't released commercially or as a package for a microcomputer/PC system as far as I can tell before

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The good reason is that there are a dearth of sources for this material. This is a good source of the information. To address the points raised in

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because you made an assumption that you doubt that the markers had expertise about the topic because you think it has errors. Have you even read

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are too diffuse with each other and hence we general call any such game a "video game", the more common term. See the nomiculture section in

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If you want to apply current language to old games, I could argue that any game that isn't played on an athletic field is a video game;

360: 1208: 2259: 1587: 838: 2202: 1783: 2663:, many academics scorn Knowledge (XXG), but I don't think that "I can't cite my own thesis" is one of the common reasons for that. 536: 1507:(edit conflict) Video screens absolutely existed at the time; even the PDP-1 that Crowther used for his maps could have had them. 2763: 1827: 1806: 572: 96: 1366:

reverted my change from "video game" to "computer game", saying that on WP, computer games and video games are the same thing.

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Furthermore, there is a direct contradiction between referring to ADVENT as a video game, and the clear statement in

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articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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author. But you keep bringing this point up as if it is a thing. If it is please direct me to the documentation.

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You could certainly play on a glass teletype; but to refer to a glass teletype as a 'video' is stretching it.

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along with your citation, to avoid the appearance of self-promotion or at least to avoid being reverted. --

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the "first" adventure game just isn't technically true, even if it was basically the first most people saw.

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You then had the additional problem of getting out of Witt's End without paying penalty points for advice!

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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I distinctly remember entering “plugh” and “xyzzy”. What did “plugh” do, and why is it not mentioned?

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You should't use WP as a reference for this stuff, but if you're still talking the statement over at

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If you have a Linux system, it goes under the name 'adventure'. You might need to download it.

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that text adventures are not video games. The right article to fix is this one, not that one.

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I'll take this review on. If I don't get back with comments in a week, please ping. --

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we typically do not use thesis for sourcing until there's a really good reason too.

2733: 2713: 2672: 2651: 2621: 2593: 2585: 2514: 2488: 2424: 2410: 2348: 2340:; it is publicly available, peer reviewed, and a secondary source on the material. 2331: 2309: 2287: 2267: 2242: 2225: 2206: 2179: 2145: 2122: 2068: 2034: 2018: 1984: 1969: 1930: 1909: 1893: 1872: 1846: 1831: 1718: 1698: 1672: 1643: 1626: 1608: 1572: 1492: 1471: 1423: 1401: 1347: 754: 730: 451: 1454:

If I screwed up some links, that's my bad; I should have delinkified them. Sorry.

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I haven't played that version out completely so I don't know how complete it is.

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First, the game entitled 'adventure' on Emacs is not colossal cave adventure.

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version, or was this something added to the branch that ended up on my desk?

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Thank you for clearing up for PresN that this thesis has been peer reviewed.

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haven't played on computers of every type ever since their inception?

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from 1974, which did not have the spread or influence of Adventure."

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but you can see the source added a few more diffs back that day. --

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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once

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s influence on the genre is already there and sourced. --

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This article appeared on Knowledge (XXG)'s Main Page as

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Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles in Everyday life

2455:, which is a) wrong in that it's a different game than 2361: 1704: 1529:

played it on a monitor at the time? Can you prove that

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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page

2475:(1980) was the first adventure game with graphics. -- 2249:

The 1987 PDP-11 Windows port link needs clarification

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says otherwise, it is wrong- and it contradicts both

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shouldn't be called a video game, it's just a game.

1271:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 1199:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 235:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 1940:could someone tell me where i can play this today? 2451:for personal computers, and added graphics unlike 2197:I played it on a Data General MV8000 around 1980. 2093:Second, there appears to be an internet version: 1631:I found a source too that I've put in as well. -- 1369:Firstly, I would like a citation for that claim. 1285:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Electronic literature 2774:Knowledge (XXG) vital articles in Everyday life 2441:I note, though, that then goes on to say that 2429:Is it a peer reviewed source, though? I guess 1859:I can't see anything major holding this back. 1595:that differs from loading up a modern port. -- 2471:was), but it didn't have graphics until 1982— 8: 1390:, would you please restore my edit? Thanks. 43:. Even so, if you can update or improve it, 39:as one of the best articles produced by the 33:; it (or a previous version of it) has been 2463:beat it, but was on mainframes until 1979; 873:Lego Indiana Jones: The Original Adventures 2819:WikiProject Electronic literature articles 1738: 1288:Template:WikiProject Electronic literature 1236: 1148: 282: 181: 68: 15: 2584:was completely justified in removing it. 2360:Ok, so, for clarity, we're talking about 2789:FA-Class vital articles in Everyday life 1975:It's an option within the EMACS editor. 1703:And the diff alluded to above ends here 142: 2814:FA-Class Electronic literature articles 2506:returned to the article as a citation. 2135:https://rickadams.org/adventure/advent/ 1769: 1741: 1238: 1150: 807:Pokémon Sword and Shield Expansion Pass 249:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Video games 183: 2769:Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles 2725:Colossal Cave Adventure#Later versions 2382:may not be as well-known, but calling 2365: 2199:2601:647:8100:30BB:1965:93E:CBE5:9231 970: 7: 2609:PresN has already acknowledged that 1265:This article is within the scope of 1193:This article is within the scope of 636: 622:Five Nights at Freddy's: Help Wanted 229:This article is within the scope of 2799:High-importance video game articles 307: 172:It is of interest to the following 2095:https://grack.com/demos/adventure/ 1588:The Oregon Trail (1971 video game) 993:The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 14: 2749:Knowledge (XXG) featured articles 1268:WikiProject Electronic literature 1217:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Caves 2804:WikiProject Video games articles 2133:Another internet version is at: 1807:Talk:Colossal Cave Adventure/GA1 1313: 1258: 1240: 1180: 1170: 1152: 982: 969: 635: 563: 361:List of Pokémon special episodes 252:Template:WikiProject Video games 216: 206: 185: 152: 143: 52: 19: 2779:FA-Class level-5 vital articles 2703:https://www.colossalcave3d.com/ 2150:never mind i installed the app 269:This article has been rated as 2288:17:00, 27 September 2023 (UTC) 1916:Another name for the Apple II? 1291:Electronic literature articles 1017:Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 1: 1931:07:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC) 1279:and see a list of open tasks. 1211:and see a list of open tasks. 980: 967: 633: 574:List of generation IX Pokémon 561: 555: 516: 354: 300: 243:and see a list of open tasks. 2794:FA-Class video game articles 2734:20:04, 18 October 2023 (UTC) 2714:19:53, 18 October 2023 (UTC) 2180:16:39, 3 February 2023 (UTC) 2146:21:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC) 2123:21:09, 26 January 2023 (UTC) 2069:20:40, 26 January 2023 (UTC) 2035:20:39, 26 January 2023 (UTC) 2019:20:39, 26 January 2023 (UTC) 1985:20:35, 26 January 2023 (UTC) 1970:20:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC) 1873:21:04, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 1847:10:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC) 1832:10:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC) 1553:early history of video games 562:Featured content candidates 2673:01:20, 4 October 2023 (UTC) 2652:01:13, 4 October 2023 (UTC) 2622:21:29, 3 October 2023 (UTC) 2594:05:20, 3 October 2023 (UTC) 2515:03:51, 3 October 2023 (UTC) 2489:01:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC) 2425:22:49, 2 October 2023 (UTC) 2411:11:59, 2 October 2023 (UTC) 2349:06:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC) 2332:03:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC) 2310:03:20, 2 October 2023 (UTC) 1644:15:47, 9 January 2022 (UTC) 1627:15:40, 9 January 2022 (UTC) 1609:15:37, 9 January 2022 (UTC) 1573:16:06, 9 January 2022 (UTC) 1493:15:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC) 1472:15:51, 9 January 2022 (UTC) 1424:15:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC) 1402:15:06, 9 January 2022 (UTC) 977:No did you know nominations 2835: 2809:WikiProject Caves articles 1910:21:46, 27 April 2022 (UTC) 1894:19:48, 27 April 2022 (UTC) 1220:Template:WikiProject Caves 981:Reviews and reassessments 275:project's importance scale 116:Featured article candidate 2727:paragraph! 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2346:Talk 2323:asem 2315:Per 2307:Talk 2284:talk 2264:talk 2239:talk 2216:Pres 2203:talk 2142:talk 2119:talk 2031:talk 1981:talk 1936:help 1927:talk 1906:talk 1890:talk 1869:talk 1863:. -- 1843:talk 1822:talk 1710:asem 1690:asem 1669:talk 1635:asem 1617:Pres 1599:Pres 1563:Pres 1555:and 1522:very 1484:asem 1468:talk 1415:asem 1398:talk 1386:So, 1205:cave 1203:and 1112:(66) 1094:(21) 355:AfDs 320:edit 310:view 265:High 77:Date 2719:So 2465:CCA 2453:CCA 2392:CCA 2384:CCA 1088:(8) 1082:(0) 1072:) ( 1047:rev 1034:rev 1022:nom 1010:nom 998:nom 905:nom 839:nom 787:nom 749:nom 711:nom 701:nom 691:nom 627:nom 615:nom 603:nom 591:nom 579:nom 2745:: 2712:) 2671:) 2617:| 2592:) 2510:| 2420:| 2344:| 2330:) 2305:| 2286:) 2266:) 2241:) 2205:) 2168:oi 2161:la 2154:Al 2144:) 2121:) 2057:oi 2050:la 2043:Al 2033:) 2007:oi 2000:la 1993:Al 1983:) 1958:oi 1951:la 1944:Al 1929:) 1908:) 1892:) 1871:) 1845:) 1830:) 1717:) 1697:) 1686:-- 1671:) 1642:) 1491:) 1470:) 1422:) 1400:) 506:; 487:; 2708:( 2667:( 2647:N 2631:: 2627:@ 2588:( 2484:N 2406:N 2395:' 2358:: 2354:@ 2328:t 2326:( 2321:M 2282:( 2262:( 2237:( 2221:N 2201:( 2175:i 2140:( 2117:( 2064:i 2029:( 2014:i 1979:( 1965:i 1925:( 1904:( 1888:( 1867:( 1857:: 1853:@ 1841:( 1825:· 1820:( 1715:t 1713:( 1708:M 1695:t 1693:( 1688:M 1667:( 1653:: 1649:@ 1640:t 1638:( 1633:M 1622:N 1604:N 1568:N 1489:t 1487:( 1482:M 1466:( 1420:t 1418:( 1413:M 1408:( 1396:( 1076:) 1074:0 1070:0 1068:( 1049:) 1045:( 1036:) 1032:( 1024:) 1020:( 1012:) 1008:( 1000:) 996:( 963:) 955:( 949:) 941:( 935:) 927:( 921:) 913:( 907:) 903:( 897:) 889:( 883:) 875:( 869:) 861:( 855:) 847:( 841:) 837:( 831:) 823:( 817:) 809:( 803:) 795:( 789:) 785:( 779:) 771:( 765:) 757:( 751:) 747:( 741:) 733:( 727:) 719:( 713:) 709:( 703:) 699:( 693:) 689:( 683:) 675:( 669:) 661:( 655:) 647:( 629:) 625:( 617:) 613:( 605:) 601:( 593:) 589:( 581:) 577:( 549:) 545:( 539:) 535:( 529:) 525:( 512:) 502:4 499:( 493:) 483:6 480:( 474:) 470:3 467:( 461:) 457:3 454:( 448:) 444:1 441:( 435:) 431:5 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