Knowledge (XXG)

Talk:Commissioner Government/Archive 1

Source šŸ“

74:'Commissary' is a really strange translation. We don't use the term 'commissary' in Australia at all, but in US English, commissary means 'A restaurant in a movie studio, military base, prison, or other institution or a store that sells food and drink to members of an organization, esp. a grocery store on a military base.'. It pretty much doesn't mean anything else. Alternative terms in sources include, but are not limited to 'Commissioner Administration' (Tomasevich), or 'Government of Commissars' (Ramet, Cohen and Stojanović). Personally, I have to say that in terms of what makes sense in English, 'Commissioner' is probably better, because it is a term used to indicate that a person has been given a 'commission' to do a certain job (in the same way you 'commission' a painting, or the chief of police is known as the 'Commissioner' because he is 'commissioned' by the government to keep the peace). I did a quick and dirty Google Books check, and it was one hit (Tomasevich) for 'Commissioner Administration Acimovic', two for 'Commissary Government Acimovic' (Pettibone and Okęcki) and three for 'Government of Commissars' (as above). Not exactly big numbers, I know, but this is a pretty obscure topic. The current article title lacks accuracy in English translation and detracts from the understanding of the English-speaking reader (due to the use of 'Commissary'), particularly American readers. At this stage I am looking for a move to 'Government of Commissars', as two key sources on the topic of the German occupation in Yugoslavia (Cohen and Ramet) use it. I am not familiar with Stojanović. However, if someone thinks (a reasonable thought too, I might add) that 'Commissars' is also misleading due to the relationship of the word with communism, in which case, 'Commissioner Administration' is the last man standing. 513: 504: 510: 519: 522: 516: 501: 98: 545:
is question of notability, should we mention them anyway, or not. What are their accomplishments? In the first place, they where members of puppet Government. That is relevant and notable information. Then, some of them are very notable as individual. There are not good reasons for removal of this. Then, as i already explained, i am not that much for remaining of this article, as much i truly am for this list! We must not just censor the material! --
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that is not terribly surprising, but it nevertheless doesn't meet the need for "significant coverage". I also note that of the people named in the current article, only two of the original 10 commissioners have an existing article on en WP, and only two of the 18 commissioners and deputies in the second government have an existing article on en WP. In fact, of the eight in the first government, almost none of them could meet the requirements of
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did not take effective steps against Mihailović during the summer. Turner suggested that Dankelmann strengthen the Aćimović administration so that it might subdue the rebellion itself. Aćimović gave orders that the wives of communists and their sons older than 16 years of age be arrested and held. The Aćimović administration appealed for rebels to return to their homes and announced bounties for the killing of rebels and their leaders.
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Ivanić and Vasiljević were both closely linked to Zbor. One of the first tasks of the administration was to carry out Turner's orders for the registration of 'all Jews and Gypsies' in the occupied territory and implementation of severe restrictions on their activities. While the implementation of these orders was supervised by the German military government, Aćimović and his interior ministry were responsible for carrying them out.
1039:" would be more elegant and hence stable (also it would be in-line with other such articles). But I'd rather be run over by a tank while listening to bad poetry than agree to any of Antid/WW's "Serbia" titles.. So we can't agree and we have the Territory title, which is kind of like Dayton.. not great, just fine for now. 495:
on this government. In no way could these mentions be called "significant coverage" in any of those sources, despite the fact that there are several reliable ones that mention its existence. Given the subject government only existed for a total of four months and did almost nothing of any importance,
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Also, i want to state that if you two agreed to redirect this article, that maybe was consensus at the time, bot consensus can change. Now, i disagree with removal of this material. This is useful and notable subject, and we should not put even more material in main article. If anyone dont like this,
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is something very different. I disagree with you, and think that context should be added here. P.S. Yes, i finds this list very useful, and this was only place to have it here on wiki. Regarding context, i added {{main|Commissioner Government}} in the article, so that is the way to gain context also.
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This article is about the Commissioner Government, not the GNS. All it needs to do is briefly explain that the GNS replaced it and how that came about, not go into detail about the GNS. Also, if there are sources for the information about war crimes trials, then source it and cite it, don't just add
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Ok, circus arrived, so, let it stay as list. That is anyway useful addition to the subject. If anyone have something against it, use normal ways of wiki editing, instead of POV edit warring. Nobody is allowed to redirect article without merging the content first. If the rest of circus have something
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requires "significant coverage in multiple reliable sources". What multiple reliable sources does it have significant coverage in? You are the one saying it is very notable, so back your statement up. Perhaps it would be best if I AfD'd it so this discussion could be put on a policy-based footing in
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Because it needs context, and the context is provided in the Territory... article. If we expanded this article, it would just be with information already in the Territory... article (I know this because I added it there). This government is of questionable notability IMO, and it makes sense to cover
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TLDR, peace. Please, try to be more concise. Well, this list can be also without red links, that is not the most important thing in list articles. Also, Peace, c'mon, there are far more then just two sources as you presented. Anyone can go deeper in this, and find more material about it. Also, this
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The Aćimović administration, with only the former Yugoslav gendarmerie available to fight the resistance, suffered 246 attacks between 1 July and 15 August, killing 82 rebels for the loss of 26. The Germans encouraged Aćimović to make an arrangement with Mihailović, but Mihailović refused. Aćimović
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In late June 1941, the Aćimović administration issued an ordinance regarding the administration of the Banat which essentially made the region a separate civil administrative unit under the control of the local Volksdeutsche under the leadership of Sepp Janko. While the Banat was formally under the
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Ok, obviously there is some interest about this article. Also, content from this article was never merged, so i also think that it may be good to actually have this one. Can someone actually explain a specific reason to merge this? List of deputies, commissioners, may be quite important and useful.
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While the commissioners were quite experienced in their portfolio areas or in politics or public administration generally, the Aćimović administration itself was in an extremely difficult position because it lacked any semblance of power. The three main tasks of the Aćimović administration were to
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Aćimović formed his Commissioner Administration on 30 April 1941, consisting of ten commissioners. He was sworn into office in late May. The other nine commissioners were (info already in this article). Several of the commissioners had held ministerial posts in the pre-war Yugoslav government, and
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No, no, and no, of course not, we will not use stupid Territory article that you buddies pushed against several rules. We have stone consensus against it, do not even try to push it again without new stong consensus. I am also for axis ocupation, that we already have, but i am in the first place
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WW, when will you stop making completely inaccurate posts with no evidence yet adhere to a position for which you have no justification. I have shown (in detail) what sources are available, stated IAW policy that there is not significant coverage, and you blithely state "c'mon, there are far more
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Well, i am OK with it, but why would we create a list, if we dont have a main article about it? If it is titled only "Commissioner Government", then we have a few more possibilities to expand this in better way then if it is just a list. We can, but i think that it is not the time still for it.
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The interest so far has been from an new ARBMAC-warned user and two obvious socks. However, I am happy to discuss the merits of having a separate article for something that had no power and only existed for a couple of months. I'd also be happy to merge notable information into the Territory...
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There has been a significant incresse in the number of susoicious sock accounts and IPs promoting various pro-Serbian POVs. More than a few opinionated users have been blocked or topic-banned recently. Imo the inevitable Socking Phase may have begun.. I was just in the process of starting to
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Rot. Defining the events of 1941-45 using the boundaries of the modern state of Serbia is ahistorical. Events of WWII should be defined within the boundaries of the occupied territories, puppet states or whatever existed at the time, not placed in a Tardis and zapped forward to 2013.
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This material is the sum total of everything that could be gleaned from Tomasevich, Pavlowitch, two chapters in a collection edited by Ramet, a book by Lemkin and a highly dubious tome by Dobrich. In Tomasevich's comprehensive 1975 book on the Chetniks (of 500 pages) there is
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In mid-May, Aćimović's administration issued a declaration to the effect that the Serbian people wanted 'sincere and loyal cooperation with their great neighbor, the German people'. Most of the local administrators in the counties and districts remained in place.
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against the merge, as subject is notable and good. No reason to merge, we have references, and i do not see any consensus to merge all of those in one article, but to CREATE article that will deal with it. Then, axis ocupation of Serbia is the place for it. --
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Most of them are mentioned in only two sources, Tomasevich 2001 and Cohen, and in both cases as a mere list of the commissioners, nothing about what they did. If no further sources for this article are forthcoming, I will be submitting it to
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And, we have sources. Please, lets talk about this subject. At the end, i object to remove and hide this from encyclopedia with out any actual reason. P.S. POVFORk is not the reason, as material from here is not in the redirected article. --
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it in the Territory... article and if the list of commissioners is needed (as you appear to believe), then a list article is a logical way of doing it. It can be see also'd at the top of the appropriate section of the Territory article.
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then just two sources as you presented. Anyone can go deeper in this, and find more material about it". If anyone can do it, you do it! Produce some evidence. I think AfD is the only way to deal with this issue.
1077:(as the "background"), or the Territory of the Military Commander article itself. Either would be fine with me, but what I don't like is the "Puppet governments" idea or the idea of this article standing. 897:
it's a redirect because there was nothing noteworthy that hadn't been expanded in other articles. Btw WW I hope that there won't be any !Support by accounts that haven't been active for months and even
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jurisdiction of the Aćimović administration, in practical terms it was largely autonomous of Belgrade and under the control of the military government through the military district command in Pančevo.
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Can you please stop spilling bile over the Territory... article? You did it at the AfD and you did it here, yet there's four move discussions listed on Talk over there that are all marked as
685:ā€“ Per reasons explained above, i propose to rename this into list, as it is the list of members. Then, article can be useful addition of the main articles about the WWII Serbia occupation. -- 529:
with a request for deletion. I am dropping my previous suggestion that it could be a list article because if the government itself is not notable, the the commissioners are also not notable.
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Yes, Peace, i agree with you. AfD is a normal way to deal with dispute, and this DIREKTORs edit war is just obvious vandalism. I will see some references. Anyway, we should wait for RM. --
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Merging = redirecting, WhiteWriter. But if you're referring to the list (the only part not already present in the main article), I already said that in my opinion it is clearly below
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Didn't see this thread before I moved, apologies, but imo there's really no question that "government" is a more appropriate term than "administration". The institution was called "
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articles? Thoughts? I myself really think this very brief, powerless institution does not really need a seperate article, and that the matter could adequately be covered in
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article (which I consider needs to stay there to provide proper context for the appointment of the Commissioner Government by the Germans and its rapid replacement by the
669: 457:) because it does not have significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources. The following information not currently in this article is already in the 349: 326:
Actually, given the material in this article is just a list of people, and the detail and context of its appointment and replacement is more properly covered in
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secure the acquiescence of the population to the German occupation, help restore services, and 'identify and remove undesirables from public services.
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You didnt actually address the subject, but only your narrow view. We are not talking about notability, but about correct title for this subject. --
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Yes, I know. I think this RM is premature and should be withdrawn so that the notability of the subject can be tested by an AfD.
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With respect, WW, you jumped in with this RM when it really should have gone to AfD first to determine if it really is notable.
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so moving it isn't a solution. When this RM is complete I will AfD this article, and if it survives I will consider this move.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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was suggested to consolidate these topics. Another option is the German territory article, and yet another is
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No, i actually disagree. It is very notable subject, and this article should be the main article about it, as
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I suggest it be converted to a list article with the title "List of members of the Commissioner Government".
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The article needs to be merged, but not in any "Puppet governments" article, it ought to be merged into the
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What WW is referring to there is that I and a few others also don't like the Territory title. I think "
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No discussion has occurred here regarding the notability of this topic. It is also a content fork of
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Of course not. Axis occupation of Serbia has wider scope than territory occupied only by Germany.--
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Notability should be tested after this proposition, as subject may be different as it is now. --
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Everything that can be said about it that I am aware of is already in the Territory article.
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Can you help me in expanding this article? There is actually a lot to say about this... --
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I think it could be adequately covered in Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia.
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where it is covered in adequate detail for a subject that is below the threshold for
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though. I think I'll just take it to AfD tomorrow regardless of the premature RM.
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They are distinct ideas, one without the other doesn't provide the full picture.
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is currently a redirect. It has been flipping back and forth for many months ...
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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Maybe, if we expand this a bit more, then it may have separate article, only "
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Content was not merged, it was just deleted... therefor, restoring article. --
1021:, so insisting that there is "stone consensus against it" is nonsensical. -- 1022: 944: 656: 93:", which quite unambiguously means "government". I agree on "Comissary" 453:
I consider this article does not meet WP general notability guideline (
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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Addition of unnecessary info about the Govt of National Salvation
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investigate when I had to leave for a while. Experience tells me
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Both are true, but it sounds like overselling. Can we pick one?
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is very likely to nail someone or other if reports are compiled.
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that was recreated after months of being a redirect.--
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Axis occupation of Serbia is ahistorical. I suggest
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Relevant WikiProjects was informed about this RM. --
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Serbia (Territory of the German Military Commander)
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Serbia (Territory of the German Military Commander)
218:. If you disagree, feel free to move it yourself. 130:Any chance this article could be merged into the 97:"Comissioner" though. I checked the sources and " 426:use civilized methods of dispute resolution. -- 868:That wouldn't properly address the issue with 682:List of members of the Commissioner Government 350:List of members of the Commissioner Government 960:Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia 459:Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia 380:Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia 328:Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia 265:Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia 243:Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia 8: 818:, naturally. This thing is way below NOTE. 414:against, use AfD as normal editors do... -- 937:Serbian puppet governments of World War II 588:(can't seem to sign on this damn thingĀ :) 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 70:Commissary Government - proposed move 7: 1121:"collaborationist puppet government" 865:Technically, it should go to RfD. 24: 1037:Military Administration in Serbia 1075:Government of National Salvation 463:Government of National Salvation 132:Government of National Salvation 29: 651:The result of the proposal was 101:" seems pretty common as well. 1096:21:54, 15 September 2013 (UTC) 1058:22:02, 15 September 2013 (UTC) 1: 911:12:33, 27 January 2013 (UTC) 882:14:23, 27 January 2013 (UTC) 861:13:37, 27 January 2013 (UTC) 833:11:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC) 807:11:57, 27 January 2013 (UTC) 796:02:27, 27 January 2013 (UTC) 782:01:47, 27 January 2013 (UTC) 714:22:08, 26 January 2013 (UTC) 692:19:14, 26 January 2013 (UTC) 665:22:53, 4 February 2013 (UTC) 621:21:51, 26 January 2013 (UTC) 610:21:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC) 575:10:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC) 552:18:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC) 539:04:14, 26 January 2013 (UTC) 433:18:46, 26 January 2013 (UTC) 421:18:32, 26 January 2013 (UTC) 409:01:19, 26 January 2013 (UTC) 390:00:17, 26 January 2013 (UTC) 374:22:12, 25 January 2013 (UTC) 359:15:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC) 340:03:15, 25 January 2013 (UTC) 321:23:16, 24 January 2013 (UTC) 305:22:56, 24 January 2013 (UTC) 277:23:47, 22 January 2013 (UTC) 18:Talk:Commissioner Government 1150:00:54, 15 August 2017 (UTC) 1135:00:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC) 1031:13:06, 25 August 2013 (UTC) 1013:15:53, 15 August 2013 (UTC) 1001:11:31, 15 August 2013 (UTC) 986:11:17, 15 August 2013 (UTC) 972:10:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC) 953:09:21, 15 August 2013 (UTC) 267:. Reverting to a redirect. 259:12:05, 15 August 2012 (UTC) 1166: 500:, as follows: Risto Jojić 1116:05:51, 29 July 2017 (UTC) 941:Axis occupation of Serbia 180:Waited a while. Merging. 84:13:53, 9 April 2012 (UTC) 1106:it to the lead. Thanks, 921:Please do not modify it. 643:Please do not modify it. 399:front of the community. 237:16:26, 12 May 2012 (UTC) 210:14:42, 12 May 2012 (UTC) 199:08:12, 12 May 2012 (UTC) 176:23:06, 11 May 2012 (UTC) 730:Commissioner Government 725:Commissioner Government 677:Commissioner Government 161:02:22, 6 May 2012 (UTC) 120:02:14, 6 May 2012 (UTC) 99:Commissioner Government 935:At the AfD, the title 488: 467: 42:of past discussions. 518:Stanislav Josifović 1146:click to talk to me 1112:click to talk to me 512:Milosav Vasiljević 241:redirected page to 558:It is after all a 978:Antidiskriminator 931:merge suggestions 673: 670:non-admin closure 515:Dr Stevan Ivanić 509:Momčilo Janković 67: 66: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 1157: 1094: 1093: 1090: 1083: 1056: 1055: 1052: 1045: 1011: 923: 908: 844: 831: 805: 771: 753: 690: 684: 667: 645: 619: 572: 550: 521:Jeremija Protić 431: 419: 388: 357: 303: 235: 234: 231: 224: 208: 197: 196: 193: 186: 159: 158: 155: 148: 118: 117: 114: 107: 63: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 1165: 1164: 1160: 1159: 1158: 1156: 1155: 1154: 1123: 1103: 1088: 1085: 1081: 1078: 1050: 1047: 1043: 1040: 1007: 933: 928: 919: 900: 845: 840: 827: 801: 744: 728: 686: 680: 641: 635: 615: 564: 546: 451: 427: 415: 384: 353: 299: 295: 229: 226: 222: 219: 204: 191: 188: 184: 181: 153: 150: 146: 143: 128: 126:Possible merge? 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Index

Talk:Commissioner Government
archive
current talk page
ArchiveĀ 1
Peacemaker67
talk
13:53, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Commissioner Government
Director
talk
02:14, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Government of National Salvation
Serbia (Territory of the German Military Commander)
Serbia (Territory of the German Military Commander)
Director
talk
02:22, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Peacemaker67
talk
23:06, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Director
talk
08:12, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
WhiteWriter
14:42, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
WP:NOTE
Director
talk
16:26, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia

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