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something very similar to the
English affricates: I couldn't make the sound without another consonantal sound (in this case an approximant) following, however faintly, in the wake of the nasal voicing (for want of a better term). Unfortunately I'm not aware of any literature describing the inadequacy/inaccuracy of transcribing affricates as sequences of stop + fricative, or else I'd have been bold and added the information myself, as it seems relevant to the subject of consonant clusters. The relevancy, as I see it, would lie in the affricate being an essentially condensed consonant cluster itself. I remember at one time, when the ligatures were used, it wasn't at all uncommon to see , which usually denotes a consonant sound articulated in a spot between the characters that make up the ligature, which (being the amateur that I am) seemed to me to indicate that those who used this convention considered the English affricates to be singular consonants and not stop + fricative sequences. Is this a misinterpretation on my part? If not, surely not every phonologisthas condoned the change in convention from single consonant represented by ligature and diacritic to a sequence of two consonants. Though I'll concede that the English affricates do contain two audible sound qualities, it doesn't seem to me this is any truer of the affricates than of some other consonants represented by single characters (not sequences nor even ligatures) on the IPA chart. Like diphthongs, many consonants sound very differently at the beginning of the articulation from how they sound at the end; were this untrue, all consonants would sound essentially the same when recorded and played backward, and not many do. The main problems I see are, firstly, the inconsistency when using ligatures/sequences for some consonants and not for others (not so much in the fact of using them for some and not for others, but the seemingly arbituary manner in which this is applied), secondly, and probably least relevantly, that in the case of the English affricates, the "stop" portion does not come to a full stop, but blends seemlessly into the "fricative" portion, and thirdly, being to me most importantly of all, that, even were a stop + fricative sequence to be used to represent the English affricates, the both the "stop" and "fricative" of each affricate are pronounced differently, with, at least in some dialects (or perhaps just a noticeable enough number of idiolects to call attention to itself) a different enough place of articulation to merit their own place on the IPA charts, or, in what seems to me the majority of cases, not quite a different enough place of articulation to merit such treatment but to be mentioned in the phone's name (a good comparison to illustrate what I mean here is how denti-alveolars don't merit their own position on IPA charts, but merit a difference in name), and a very different
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consonant clusters counting affricates as more than one consonant have been removed from the article, I think it would benefit the article to directly address the subject. One thing in particular that I'd like to see addressed is the fact that if one draws out the "CH" sound, it has a sharp, almost tinnient sound compared to a drawn out "SH" sound, as the "CH" is made with the tip of the tongue (with the supposed "T" sound really being incidental to its pronunciation) and the "SH" is made with a much broader area of the tongue contacting the roof of the mouth further back. To be honest, I can't see why IPA stopped using ligatures for the
English "CH" and "J" in favor of two seperate symbols for each, when even the ligatures conveyed the (completely incorrect) idea that the English "CH" and "J" each contain more than a single consonantal sound quality, thus calling for exactly the opposite sort of replacement: losing each of the two ligatures with its own, single, distinct symbol. Why a single character is used in IPA to distinguish a combination of two totally different sounds in the case of (made up of an followed by a
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the only), where everything is read totaly the same way it is written. i mean that every phonem (or just phonetic sound) has only one letter, that expreses it. and any time when this letters are written, there can be read strictly the same. for example a word sheuratsxhk'ops is read /sheuratsxhk'ops/ :-) (there are 4 consonants /ts/, /x/, /h/, /k'/). and there is strictly 4 syllables (she.u.ratsx.hk'ops). and yes, the word /gvbrdghvnis/ is strictly only onesyllabical. if you listen to georgian speaking, or better, georgian poems, where this word is used. you would discover that i'm right. and there is nothing scary about it. caucasian people have very free articulation, and this kind of things is not problem for us. :D
889:, as I've never seen it mentioned in reference to the dialect. I can't imagine that no phonologist has ever observed these differences in pronunciation; that the ligature with the bridge-diacritic was thrown around so loosely and arbitrarily that those phonologists who once used it all now unanymously agree that each English affricate is just a sequence of other phones heard in the language. Mainly, I was hoping someone else, with more knowledge on the subject of the history of the IPA representations of English affricates than I, might have something to add on the matter, or at least be able to point me in the direction of published literature on the subject if said someone didn't feel like doing it himself. --
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consonants regardless of syllabification is best to start off with, since there are languages (Bella Coola) that have been argued not to have syllables, and since syllabification is usually a matter of theoretical opinion rather than objectively observable fact, meaning we tread into the realms of non-NPOV and OR when we start talking about syllable boundaries. And finally, there are indeed many languages that allow more complicated clusters at word edges than at word-internal syllable edges. --
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982:: the assimilates in place to the following . As for Celtic, it wasn't a straightforward that became , it was a labialized . Since that sound already has a labial component, it's not so far-fetched that it could change to over time, especially since the Celtic languages had no native at the time. Languages' phonologies like symmetry, and an asymmetric system like that of Proto-Celtic, which had a and a but no , was inherently unstable. —
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815:), but two characters are needed for a single sound in both the case of the single sound misleadingly rendered and the single sound misleadingly rendered is absolutely inconcievable. The only reason I could possibly think of for this is that the usual pronunciation of these consonants throughout almost the entire Anglosphere radically differs from mine own native dialect of
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syllable "l" right now), while "tr" and "dr" are common enough regardless of whether the "r" is an alveolar approximant, trill, or even an uvular fricative. Similarly, "sl" is more often than "sr", and "vr", "vl", "zr", "zl" are all quite rare (except for "vr" in French)? What quality governs the probability for a certain cluster to appear and to remain in a language?
1402:, (the other word doesn't have an English page) shows the schwas inserted in the IPA. I don't think that Armenian should be removed from the page per se, but instead listed as an example of orthography not matching pronunciation. Though that raises the question for someone who is an expert on Armenian: Are there examples of words which are
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project and an obsession with trying to figure out how on earth the Celts managed to turn a C/K/Q into a P (akin to my parallel obsession with trying to imagine how the hummingbird evolved from an insect-eater; both of which are easy to describe in a stepwise process on paper, but extremely difficult
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but i'm going to tell you that, there is consonant cluster whith 9 consonants in word /gvprtxlvnis/ (he is making us to be always scary) in georgian. it's a grammatical form of word /prtxla/ (a creature that is always scary). but it's is not an literatural form, that's why no one has written about it
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can be shown in transcription by separating the syllables with a period, or by separating the words with a space); and it's not used much here at
Knowledge (XXG) because most people see IPA transcriptions in Arial Unicode, which has a bug in the "tie bar" symbol, making it appear in the wrong place.
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Yeah, I hadn't read the bit where the article mentions that there is disagreement over which definition is better. This info had been placed way down towards the bottom, though. I've moved it up into the intro where it belongs. Even so, that
Japanese example is still a little off considering that
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of the examples in foreign (this is the
English wikipedia, remember?) languages, currently do not provide transcription! While readers could be expected to know the consonant composition of a word in the language of the article this is definately not the case for other languages. As user Exit said,
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major island but ... if we keep in mind the above correct definition, we notice something: these groups of /n/ + consonant are not consonant clusters at all because they cross a syllable boundary. However, this is not to say the consonant clusters cannot occur in
Japanese. The language does allow
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i'm a student of tbilisi state university of the faculty of georgian linguistics, and more, i'm georgian and my native language is georgian. that means i can help you to understand and do not leave any doubts about georgian consonant clusters. georgian language is one of the very rear languages (or
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Firstly, I am in no way an expert on language, let alone
Armenian, of which I don't even know a word. However, I was curious about Armenian consonant clusters, and I found on Wiktionary that there didn't seem to be very many with more than about three consecutive consonants split between syllables
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I've been wondering this for a long time: why do "tr", "dr" appear a lot more often than "tl", "dl" in
European languages that I've seen (Germanic and Romance mainly)? "tl" and "dl" appear mostly between syllable boundaries, and are rarely ever present in initial and final positions (excluding the
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I appreciate the correction on ; when I referred back to the IPA chart and articulated the sound myself, I found it was very different from an followed by a , though, and I'm willing to admit this could very well be an error in pronunciation on my part, I could not make the sound without noticing
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what is the syllable breakdown? gv.brd.γv.nis? do not these syllables have a vocalic nucleus? if so, that means 3 of those consonants aren't parts of the clusters.... which according to the syllable breakdown i've written, there aren't any clusters at all if you look at it on a per-syllable basis.
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may appear to be only 2 syllables (because there are 2 vowel nuclei), but in fact it is 4 syllables long: štvrť.žbln.knu.tie, where the r and the l are syllabic, so why is the word presented as an example of a 'formidable consonant cluster'? each syllable has at most a 3 consonant onset, which is
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pronounced as a "T" followed by an "SH": The word "chew", for example, isn't pronounced in a way that could be equally well rendered as "tshew"; "why choose" and "white shoose" are not homophones, nor are "catch it" and "cat shit" even though "catch up" and "ketchup" are. While most examples of
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Consonant clusters are two or more consonants that make one sound as in sh, th, tch, ph, etc. They differ from blends. In a blend such as spl, the sounds blend together but are distinctly separate as in s-p-l-i-t which has four distinct phonemes. In the word "w-i-tch" there are three separate
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No, it isn't. The in Honshu isn't syllabic; Honshu has only two syllables in
Japanese. It has four moras, and moras are arguably more important in Japanese phonology (and certainly poetry) than syllables, but still only two syllables. I think the definition of consonant cluster as any string of
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As a native speaker of
American English, I'm painfully aware that our orthography usually doesn't correspond to the actual pronunciation of the word. It's with this in mind that I propose to modify or replace the sentence regarding "twelfths" and "bursts", as /twɛɫfs/ and /bɺs:/ seem to be more
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Above, User:Angr mentioned the difference between two distinct consonants put together into a cluster (even if the cluster is bridging two syllables, rather than being contained within a single syllable -- I'll leave that a separate issue!) and an affricate, which is generally percieved and
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George Hewitt, professor of Caucasian languages at the University of London, informs me that the consonants of Georgian cannot appear as syllable nuclei... that would seem to make the Georgian word a monosyllable, and therefore quite scary. :) I don't see how this is even possible from an
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o). Also, you only show examples of clusters within a single word (although I believe Angstschweiß should be counted as 2 words, which in German can be in many cases joined together). If you counted inter-word clusters, you would find even 9-consonant examples in Polish (e.g. słuchać
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with long consonant clusters? Also, I don't think that the Roman characters used to compose those are worth mentioning, because those digraphs are artificial, anyway (created by switching to an alphabet with fewer characters). This insertion is mentioned in the article on
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Different words are different syllables. A very brief pause is inserted between syllables. Plus, "white" is often pronounced using a "held T" or "glottal stop" rather than the Initial T. ANd even if you DO use an aspirated t, there will be a slight pause before "sh".
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By "the bridge diacritic" I assume you mean the symbol often used thus: . That symbol hasn't been deprecated in the IPA; only ligatures like have been. The "tie bar" symbol isn't used much for English, because is mostly unambiguous without it (the difference between
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common than /twɛɫfθs/ and /bɺsts/, at least in my experience. It seems to me--again, just personal experience--that speakers are tending towards simplifying consonant clusters, especially in clusters involving /θ/. For example, I've heard <paths: -->
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I think the transliteration of Georgian and spelling of Nuxálk and Slovak are close enough to being phonetic transcriptions that no additional transcription should be necessary. Transcription of the Japanese and Croatian could be advantageous, though.
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Pittsburgh does not contain a pluralized word - it contains a possessive with no apostrophe. The "burgh" belonged to "Pitt". That said, I don't believe there is any difference between the "ts" sound in any of the examples you gave.
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the only pronunciation listed for the UK is /ˈkrwæsɒ̃/, for the US there are two options—/krwɑːˈsɑ̃ː/ and also /krəˈsɑːnt/. I don't know the actual real-life situation but I think it's a valid example still, it's a frequently used
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In the section on English clusters, it says that a word can have at most 3 consonant phonemes in its initial cluster, however, doesn't the word "strain" have four ( /stʃɹeɪn/ )? Perhaps I have been saying it wrong, though.
970:. You're right that the stop portion of the English affricate is not made in exactly the same place as the stop in isolation, but it does fall within the range of the /t/ phoneme's allophonic variation. I think when I say
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articulatory perspective, but my experience of Georgian is extremely limited. I'm going to change this in the article, since Hewitt's published reference grammar ("Georgian: A Structural Reference Grammar") backs this up.
1390:. Starting on page 30, it mentions schwa insertion for consonant clusters of length greater than two (and sometimes even in those with two!). In fact, looking at the Armenian Wiktionary pages for the mentioned words (
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in Georgian. I'll try to find out which word is correct and then maybe correct the entry if no one objects or can certify the word in the entry. I think I'm going to include Georgian spelling for this word as well...
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yet, but in dialects and slang it exists! and maybe there are moreconsonantic clusters in regional goergian or georgian slang that i can't remember at the moment. (sorry for not knowing english well :), if)
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rhythm in english is a 4 (or 5) phoneme, 2 syllable word (sorry, can't remember my SAMPA), there is most definitely a vowel.. and a syllabic (or schwa + m if you subscribe to that line of thinking).
851:)"; it's a single sound with a single, palatal, place of articulation. It doesn't occur in English, so don't be thrown off by statements seen in introductory language books that claim that is like the
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I think there is some basis for the first definition, because there are some languages which allow particular sounds word-finally, but not before another consonant. I think the native vocabulary of
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This article could probably benefit from some sound bites, to show us how exactly things like "/ɡvbrdɣvnis/" sound when said properly. I just can't concieve this word as one syllable at all. -
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of articulation, from the characters used in sequence to denote them; the "" part of the English "CH" isn't articulated in place or manner quite the same as the of the English "T", nor the "
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becomes something like /wɵʊvz/ instead of /wʊɫvz/, and so on. I just think there should be a note about variant pronunciations that simplify consonant clusters, at least in English.
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creen). English renders a the sequence /ts/ as /t͡s/ only when pluralizing a word ending with /t/, or in compound words containing pluralized words ending with /t/, as in “Pit
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Currently the article defines a consonant cluster thus "a consonant cluster is a group of consonants which have no intervening vowel." Compare this to the definition given
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What does it really mean that consonants can't appear as syllable nuclei? Surely they do so phonetically? Is Hewitt talking about some more abstract analysis?
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How is rhythm a six-part consonant cluster? The y is a pronounced as a vowel. The way I hear it, there are two consonant clusters in "rhythm", "rh" and "thm".
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this article is a mess, the international standard for pronunciation (IPA) should be used instead of the words (that may itself be incorrect romanizations).--
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Before making light of Georgian clusters, try beating the 12 consecutive consonants in this everyday sentence: "The rankled dirndls tsked strict schmucks" (
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I guess this merely means that /v/ can be vocalic in Georgian -- and, yes, this probably means in turn that there are no consonant clusters in any syllable.
859:; it isn't. Are you aware of any published literature discussing the inadequacy or otherwise of transcribing affricates as sequences of stop + fricative? —
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The article says currently that all such clusters begin with /s/ or /ʃ/, however there is at least one word that isn't like this: croissant /ˈkɹwɑːsɒ̃/ --
1398:) yields a pronunciation with the schwas put in (look directly below the IPA pronunciation to see the word with (ը) inserted), and the English page for
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creen” is an affricate /t͡s/, the same as the “zz” in “pizza”. However, this is not true, and in reality, it is a sequence of /t/ and /s/ (sigh
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without a vowel between them." (emphasis added). Which is correct? I believe it's the latter. I'm about to edit the article accordingly.
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i'd like to rewite some of this to be less misleading, because for example in slovak, r and l can be vocalic, so a word presented like
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I would like to kno about the noraml acquisition of consonants clusters. What are we supposed to expect at 2 years of age? (English)
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Unbeknownst to the writer the finnish word hamstrata - to hoard like a hamster breaks the 3 rule. so it is not so 4 is possible
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However, in other languages, using the "tie bar" is important: Polish, for example, has a contrast between the cluster in
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and the importance of cross-syllable clusters? are there any references for this? i've never heard mention of this before.
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P.S. Please forgive my relative ignorance on the subject of phonology, my main interest in it comes from a personal
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The affricate /tʃ/ is considered a single consonant phoneme in English, not a sequence of two phonemes.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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A tiny correction to the above rambling; the longest consonant kluster seems to be in the Swedish word
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and if we are talking about the english pronunciation of Nietzschean, well, it would be pronounced ...
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pronounced as a single consonant. Contrary to IPA renderings, the English "CH" or "TCH" is (almost?)
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the Georgian gvbrdγvnis is an example of this type, containing four syllables, but only one vowel
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Um, is not "a combination of two totally different sounds ... (made up of an followed by a
1131:(/pʰæðz/ or /pʰæθs/) turn into something like /pʰætʰ.s/ (/t/ distinct /s/); <tooth's: -->
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But no one pronounces it /tsk/. The only choice besides /tɪsk/ is /k|/ (past tense /k|t/).
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Yes, and Hampsthwaite isn't an example of a coda at all. I've fixed the text accordingly.
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is in pretty much exactly the same place as the stop portion of the affricate when I say
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same thing with the german Angstschweiss ... sch in german is phonetically 1 consonant
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I also noticed the following "Japanese is almost as strict, but it allows clusters of
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I'd say the kana of "tsu" and "chi" has consonant clusters, but that might be me...
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As far as I can tell, twelfths only has 4 consonant sounds in its coda.
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Do English speakers who haven't studied French pronounce it like that?
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788:"The German word Angstschweiß (cold sweat) is another good example."
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There are very many transcriptions in different dictionaries. In
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Tendency for some consonant clusters to appear more frequently?
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is a syllabic consonant and therefore phonologically a vowel.
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with a cluster. In Polish they constrast even within a word:
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The longest consonant cluster in an English word appears in
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In Polish 4-consonant clusters are also not uncommon (e.g.
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3-consonant cluster for English that doesn't start with s
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I might be wrong here, but I'm almost entirely sure that
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to envisage occuring practically in the real world). --
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consonant for all of 'tzsch' in the middle of the word
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Or that ancient Hebrew was pronounced with no vowels.
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That's like saying english word /wrd/ has no vowels.
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becomes /t̪utʰ.s/ (same as before); <wolves: -->
746:), 5-consonant clusters also sometimes occur (e.g.
431:also, although czech vlk (wolf) doesnt contain any
885:" in the English "SH". I doubt this is unique to
1386:(let alone in the same one). Then I came across
1148:If you have published sources, go right ahead. +
414:'s ideas), which has five, may have even more.
1166:The Cambridge History of the English Language
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1303:Longest English initial consonant cluster?
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1109:Indeed. Recording or it didn't happen.
1042:spelling is not phonetic transcription.
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701:Georgian: a structural reference grammar
1268:) (only spoilsports pronounce "tsk" as
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1125:Sound Shifts and Cluster Simplification
121:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Linguistics
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1516:Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
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410:(supporting philosopher Friedrich
272:Georgian/Slovak Consonant clusters
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1388:an online book about the language
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636:OK, so that's it, thank you!
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207:) 21:13, 30 November 2004
147:project's importance scale
1459:03:42, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
1340:10:15, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
1324:21:45, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
714:Polish consonant clusters
708:22:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
603:with an affricate versus
520:consonant plus /j/ as in
435:vowels, the is vocalic.
406:Certain loan words, like
339:16:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
162:
140:
73:
46:
1381:Armenian Schwa Insertion
1375:02:05, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
1360:19:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
1119:08:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
796:13:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
486:20:42, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
441:8 July 2005 03:44 (UTC)
352:3 July 2005 17:59 (UTC)
801:Why Choose White Shoes?
680:(no ejective) is "he's
671:18:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
327:02:05, 9 Sep 2005 (UTC)
104:WikiProject Linguistics
966:and the affricate in
502:together in a syllable
236:) 14:18, 15 June 2005
184:Acqusition of clusters
159:
28:This article is rated
1233:On consonant clusters
778:) 08:21, 7 June 2007
311:) 17:59, 3 July 2005
284:also, the statement:
266:) 00:16, 3 July 2005
158:
32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
166:Phonetics Task Force
127:Linguistics articles
999:Ticklewickleukulele
659:"he is plucking us"
542:Felix the Cassowary
369:Alexandro Celabreli
281:hardly formidable.
615:has the cluster .
470:, nine in total.
242:rhythm has a vowel
160:
96:Linguistics portal
34:content assessment
1314:comment added by
1244:comment added by
1197:comment added by
1060:
1048:comment added by
887:Cascadian English
817:Cascadian English
780:
766:comment added by
755:ętem", wszedł "He
653:The Georgian word
476:comment added by
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367:comment added by
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403:(agony sweat).
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684:us". The root
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1446:
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1424:
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1384:
1367:—Largo Plazo
1349:
1310:— Preceding
1306:
1263:
1260:Just for fun
1240:— Preceding
1236:
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1199:88.113.96.60
1193:— Preceding
1190:
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784:Angstschweiß
762:— Preceding
756:
752:
747:
743:
742:elić, oszcze
739:
735:
731:
727:
723:
719:
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696:
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689:
688:is given by
685:
681:
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661:is actually
658:
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604:
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595:No, they're
552:
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250:— Preceding
245:
220:— Preceding
216:
191:— Preceding
187:
164:
142:
102:
40:WikiProjects
1083:Sound bites
1044:—Preceding
972:white shoes
955:white shoes
918:conlanguage
757:rbst z pstr
753:rstw z wstr
703:, page 20.
663:gvprcʼkvnis
605:white shoes
472:—Preceding
408:Nietzschean
397:latchspring
363:—Preceding
118:Linguistics
109:linguistics
59:Linguistics
30:Start-class
1540:Categories
1502:Largoplazo
1404:pronounced
980:why choose
959:why choose
694:gvbrdɣvnis
678:gvprckvnis
676:Actually,
601:why choose
597:affricates
492:Definition
1467:Kafetzou2
1413:BlanketPI
1215:Hamstrata
1164:How does
930:Þórrstejn
894:Þórrstejn
824:Þórrstejn
617:User:Angr
412:Nietzsche
64:Phonetics
1449:burgh”.
1400:քրթմնջալ
1396:խղճմտանք
1392:քրթմնջալ
1312:unsigned
1242:unsigned
1195:unsigned
1173:Dargueta
1135:Dargueta
1046:unsigned
974:the of
776:contribs
764:unsigned
759:ągami")
686:to pluck
551:the in
474:unsigned
377:contribs
365:unsigned
309:contribs
297:unsigned
264:contribs
252:unsigned
234:contribs
222:unsigned
205:contribs
193:unsigned
1274:Afasmit
768:Sutashu
751:"oszcze
682:peeling
638:惑乱 分からん
588:惑乱 分からん
538:Finnish
433:written
145:on the
1519:word--
1409:schwas
1270:/tɪsk/
1168:look?
922:family
875:manner
857:canyon
748:źdźbłk
734:ymać,
690:brdɣvn
668:N-true
553:Honshu
513:Honshu
213:Rhythm
36:scale.
976:white
808:never
740:wstrz
732:wstrz
722:iąż,
522:Tokyo
226:Bryce
1525:talk
1506:talk
1491:talk
1471:talk
1455:talk
1417:talk
1394:and
1371:talk
1356:talk
1336:talk
1332:Angr
1320:talk
1293:talk
1289:Angr
1278:talk
1250:talk
1223:talk
1219:Angr
1203:talk
1177:talk
1139:talk
1115:talk
1099:shoe
1094:lake
1091:file
1054:talk
1025:talk
1003:talk
984:Angr
964:trzy
957:and
861:Angr
772:talk
744:rstw
738:ąd,
736:wzgl
728:pstr
726:ęt,
724:wstr
720:Strw
613:trzy
568:Angr
557:Jimp
528:Jimp
498:here
482:talk
457:talk
439:Exit
373:talk
350:Exit
305:talk
301:Exit
288:...
260:talk
256:Exit
230:talk
201:talk
1272:).
1039:ALL
968:czy
855:in
730:y,
692:-:
609:czy
573:tɔk
517:the
426:one
137:Low
1542::
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