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Talk:New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell University

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abbreviation ILR is defined and spelled out before it is used. The abbreviation ILR is not used at other universities (unlike HR) so most people do not know what those letters mean absent a definitiion. If you have a reliable secondary source that there is widespread adoption by the general public (as opposed to just the school website) of the ILR name, please provide it. College names get abbreviated all the time, but we don't move their Knowledge pages back and forth. The "Arts College" short form has been used for 100 years, but nobody is dropping "and Sciences" from that article title. The last two moves of this article have been done without proper consultation of the editors who have generated most of the content or WikiProject Cornell University.
1653:). It also has branches in Albany, Buffalo, New York City and Rochester. The school also occupies three linked buildings along Garden Avenue, which house research, conference center and extension. The buildings were built in 1911 for the Veternary College and are on a register of historic structures. From 2001-2004, the three buildings were extensively rennovated by New York State. In 2008, the Extension Building was renamed Dolgen Hall. In 1998, New York State replaced the portion of Ives Hall fronting along Tower Road with a new 110,605 sq ft building. Recently, the State also rennovated the faculty wing of Ives Hall at a cost of $ 14 million. 1610:
requested move. Again, I believe that this article should be treated in a manner consistent with other statutory college articles, and should use its official name. I also believe that the article must be free of any puffing or self-promotion, and should stick to the facts. Since we both know that there are other undergraduate programs, the article should not state that it is the only program. The acronym ILR does not have universal acceptance, because for example, the University of Illinois uses LER, and Minnesota uses SHRLR. In contrast, the abbreviation HR has widespread acceptance.
1831:." The source said, "ILR is home to the world's largest concentration of scholars in this interdisciplinary field." There is a bit of SYN here, but I am deleting it as puffing. This is impossible to verify. How do we define "this interdisciplinary field" and do we include Cornell scholars outside the school, for example in the economics department of the Arts College, labor law professors in the law school, and organizational behavior specialists in the business school? This is meaningless and unverifiable. 200: 169: 280: 85: 64: 354: 336: 210: 304: 1153:
Relations School than I would go out of my way to remove the name of the benefactor of the business school. The name of the school has remained the same since 1944, while the Johnson School was renamed most recently in 1984, and most of its graduates attended before it got its new name. So there is a stronger reason for the benefactor's name to be used in this article than in the Johnson article.
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starting with Cornell would be easier for users to find. However, since then, the business school article has been renamed "Johnson Graduate School of Management" So, if it is permissible to have an article reflect the official name of a school (as well as its major benefactor) I would vote to move this back to "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell"
1573:. It appears that many employers want someone with a masters degree as an entry into human resources/labor relations. It is not clear that people use their undergraduate degrees to enter this field and that a larger percentage of graduates go onto law school and then practice law in areas other than labor relations. Is the current wording of the article a bit misleading? 95: 33: 1812:
But the source is hedged: "ILR has more full-time faculty involved in teaching and research that spans the broad range of work and employment disciplines than any other educational institution of its kind." Knowledge left out "full time" and "any other educational institution of its kind." I am not
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I have still been unable to find any independent secondary sources that the "rebranding" has gained widespread acceptance. There are thousands of graduates with diplomas hanging on their walls saying "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations," so there is quite a bit of inertia on the
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and I already discussed this issue and came to a compromise we were both happy with; your late entrance into the debate doesn't qualify as there being "no agreement". If your concern is about promotion, boosterism, or some other issue pertaining to point of view, all I can do is to point you again to
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Bill presents a good example, and to his point, I have compromised and put the full, historical name in bold in the lead sentence (similar to how Bill Clinton's full name is presented first), then with ILR in parentheses to indicate it as the preferred abbreviation throughout the article and the name
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We were referring to the school's root page (ilr.cornell.edu) on that point. The pages you have identified do mention the school's name at the time of its founding, but the school now goes by a different name, a fact corroborated by the titles of the very pages you referenced: "About the ILR School"
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Knowledge must follow the facts, regardless of what a PR man wants. I had reservations when we first moved the article form New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell to Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations. The reason given was that the article title
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Protection is fine with me, but as I read Knowledge policy, that means that neither of us is allowed to edit the page, because administrators involved in a content dispute cannot use administrator tools with respect to that dispute. Similarly, although you are an administrator, you can't close the
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I am trying to make the infoboxes of the statutory colleges consistent by adding NYS to the name parameters. We don't need to have "Cornell" in the name parameter because it is apparent from the logo image. So I would like this name parameter to be "NYS School of Industrial and Labor Relations" to
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and should be reversed. If there is no consensus for the change to "Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations" then we go back to the last title which had consensus "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations." Again, I am open to a reliable source that shows that
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Do you really want to insist that the school go back and change its root web page to say "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations?" I think that you are being a bit too web-centric in your preception of the school and are placing too much faith in the school's web designers. The
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which is a better basis for comparison. Spelling it out has been more frequent over time. I still believe that it was a mistake and a breach of decorum to unilaterally move the article. If there is no consensus to return to "Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations", then we
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The name came before SUNY was created. I think it is more like the Johnson School - the school is named after a benefactor who provides millions per year in annual support as well as the cost of the buildings. I would no more work toward remove the name of the benefactor of the Industrial Labor
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sure how they are counting. It appears that the ILR webmaster is counting both the regular and extension faculty to get the total. I don't know if they included extension faculty of the unnamed other institutions that they are compairing. The comparison is undated and may no longer be valid.
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resulted in a redirect to the University of Miami. I have no objection to leaving a redirect from the ILR titles back to the spelled out title, but I think the spelled out "Industrial and Labor Relations" should be used as the article title. This would be consistent with every other Cornell
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changed. When faculty publish academic papers, they identify themselves as being from the New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations. The physical diplomas spell out the school name. Cornell's budget documents and SUNY's documents use the correct name. On most documents, the
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says, "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed. If it has never been stable, or unstable for a long time, and no consensus can be reached on what the title should be, default to the title used by the first major
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doesn't mention the full name anywhere, I thought the change best. I really favor the more concise names now that third parties use Knowledge naming conventions when piping text (e.g., Facebook community pages); however, for Knowledge's purposes, perhaps it would be best to move to "Cornell
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The article states that the school "remains the only institution of higher education with a four-year undergraduate program focused on work and employment." It appears that the University of Minnesota offers both an undergraduate major and minor in Human Resources.
1858:. I think that the list could easily be just a table in the history section of this article, and theschool article is of a reasonable size in which the merging of list of deans will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. 1138:, which states that "The legal status suffix of a company...is not normally included in the article title". Noting in the article title that it is affiliated with the SUNY system strikes me as more an issue of legal status than of anything else. — 769:
the school primarily goes by. Regarding the infobox, usually the more common name goes at top (see again, Bill Clinton). I put "ILR at Cornell University," but "ILR" or "ILR School" would also fit the "bill" (no pun intended). —
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and I think either name could be argued for. In particular, it seems that the criteria "Common name" and "Conciseness" are generally weighted heavily. See below for my take on the two names vis a vis some of the criteria:
696:"Cornell University ILR School" addresses the issues of recognizability, precision, and consistency. It also appears to pass the "Common name" test, given that it is the wording used on some 3rd-party websites like 1591:
Other improvements could be made to the article, but it appears you are still trying to make edits related to the naming of the school; therefore, protection is prudent here. Let's resolve the naming issue first.
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The following sentence was in the lead paragraph: "It also has more faculty dedicated to teaching and researching work, employment, and labor issues than any other educational institution."<ref name="About"/:
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I have addressed that graph above to show why it is not valid. You don't know whether those references were preceded by a parenthetical defining the abbreviated form. Also "ILR School" is used in a non-Cornell
1472:"Cornell University ILR School" has gained wide-spread acceptance. There was a similar case involving an undergraduate who wanted to create an article based on an slang nickname for the University of Miami, 1277:
naming front. While it is obvious that the website has been "rebranded," there is no indication that it has gained traction in everyday life, particularly since the official name of the school is unchanged.
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to it that way? It's housed on the campus of Cornell University and considered a part of that university, so I can't imagine how pushing the SUNY connection enhances its recognizability or naturalness.
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I would like to omit the postgraduate student parameter, because we don't want to double-count students who are included in the Graduate School enrollment figure. Who are the 180 graduate students?
1438: 1311: 598: 1349: 1518:! However, if that is what all the publicity goes out with, I'm guessing that will be the formal title most people will use, no matter what it may have been called at the time it was founded. 1295:
It shows that ILR had a widespread meaning independent of Industrial and Labor Relations long before the founding of the School. These other meanings are found on the ILR disamb. page. Thanks,
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The main thing I dislike about the long form is its poor concision, and the main thing I dislike about the short form is that it's imprecise. Particularly bad is that it is inconsistent with
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The phrase "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations" gets 1,200,000 ghits, "Cornell ILR School" gets 16,500 ghits, and "Cornell University ILR School" gets 124,000 ghits.
1216: 1171: 1441:) provides links to thousands of books published by third parties using "ILR School". I think you're getting hung up on the historical name of the school, when Knowledge naming (per 1404:
and "The History of ILR School". For this reason and the others listed in the table above, we feel that the current Knowledge article title (Cornell University ILR School) is best. —
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Does it not strike you as a bit odd that the school would "rebrand" its website, but not apply its "rebranding" to its annual budget submissions to SUNY and the State Legislature?
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should go back to the official name, which was the title of the article prior to "Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations." Failure to spell out ILR violates
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on December 13. I don't think that there is any long-standing consensus for dropping the words "Industrial and Labor Relations" from the title. The
855:— There is no agreement as to what name to use for this article, so me might as well go with the actual official name. See NYS Education Law § 5715. 1135: 288: 179: 1641:, but later it moved into buildings vacated by the New York State College of Veternary Medicine. The current campus comprises Ives Hall, and the 1327: 361: 341: 223: 174: 108: 69: 2317: 1477: 642: 318: 1925: 1190:
disamb page shows how many other meaning those letters have in the general public. Other similar schools spell out the name, for example,
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The following sentence was in the faculty section, "The school claims to be home to the world's largest concentration of scholars in
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1646: 2193: 1445:) is based on several factors as discussed above (common name, conciseness, recognizably, naturalness, precision, consistency). — 2041: 2312: 1348:, you will see that the abbreviation frequently means things other than Industrial and Labor Relations. Look at the plot for 834: 656: 1855: 1507: 1183: 846: 2268: 2146: 1642: 1108: 1089: 754:. I think that "Cornell University ILR School" is probably the best compromise vis a vis the title selection criteria. — 44: 1545:
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
1851: 899:... my instinct was that a longer, more-precise title would be preferable, but the established conventions actually 313: 183: 829: 747: 2224:
to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Would a neutral administrator not involved in the current content dispute, please change the section to read:
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recognizable. I'd give it a poor for recognizability – no one refers to it that way. I'd support a move to
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https://web.archive.org/web/20090817061101/http://www.athletics.cornell.edu:80/camps/football.html
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You haven't even made a concerted effort to reason about this here, and already you're going to
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https://web.archive.org/web/20100713050452/http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/profiles/DavidPrice.html
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has a comprehensive history of the ILR School that should be incorporated into this article. —
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https://web.archive.org/web/20090705102810/http://www.whorunsgov.com:80/Profiles/Seth_Harris
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University college article and all of the other academic articles that I have seen. Thanks,
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I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the recent change of the name of the article from
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We seem to go back and forth on the same issues. The link I provided above (see again
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Prior to the move to the current name, one of the reasons given was that the school's
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contributor after the article ceased to be a stub." In this case, that would be
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Please check out this new Google tool which seraches a database of many books:
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As your analysis above illustrates, there are tradeoffs either way, but since
446: 370: 228: 205: 90: 1194:. Other statutory college articles also spell out their subject matter, see 704:. All in all, I think it's a good compromise between brevity and precision. — 353: 335: 1200:
State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry
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the legal name of the school, but is rather an ad-hoc branding strategy. —
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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The name also recognizes the fact that the school is a unit of both
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I respectfully disagree; note that, for example, Knowledge prefers
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
1695:"Renovated ILR complex to celebrate grand opening Friday, Oct. 15" 1645:, which is one of only two official depository libraries of the 659:) removed the sourced prose clarifying that "The ILR School" is 903:
promote the use of whatever name happens to be in common use. —
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http://www.northropgrumman.com/leadership/bios/ian_ziskin.html
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Cornell University College of Architecture, Art, and Planning
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations
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Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations
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Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/The U (University of Miami)
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Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations
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Cornell University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences
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Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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on Knowledge. Please visit the project page to join the
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New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations
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New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations
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New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations
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ILR School vs School of Industrial and Labor Relations
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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http://www.athletics.cornell.edu/camps/football.html
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http://www.athletics.cornell.edu/camps/football.html
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ILR School vs. Industrial and Labor Relations School
365:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 2220:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 2198:
http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/profiles/DavidPrice.html
2098:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1960:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1467:The unilateral name change was not consistent with 1170:The article history is instructive. It started as 627:
Weill Cornell Medical College of Cornell University
1559:http://www.carlsonschool.umn.edu/cms/Page5883.aspx 1378:website did not even mention its own official name 1115:correct, but in common usage, does anyone really 635:Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine 631:Weill Cornell Graduate School of Medical Sciences 611:Cornell University School of Hotel Administration 1386:http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/about/ILRhistory.html 1192:UIUC Institute of Labor and Industrial Relations 291:, a project which is currently considered to be 603:Cornell University College of Arts and Sciences 572:Edited to add "Cornell University ILR School" — 2206:This message was posted before February 2018. 2182:http://www.whorunsgov.com/Profiles/Seth_Harris 2084:This message was posted before February 2018. 2046:http://www.whorunsgov.com/Profiles/Seth_Harris 1946:This message was posted before February 2018. 1314:and you will see the former is the standard. — 639:New York State College of Forestry at Cornell 8: 1510:, confusing though I find that name. To me 1330:; all of the sources there antedate 1968. — 615:Cornell University College of Human Ecology 330: 163: 58: 2164:I have just modified 3 external links on 2024:I have just modified 2 external links on 607:Cornell University College of Engineering 2308:Low-importance New York (state) articles 2293:Mid-importance organized labour articles 1563:UM also offers a masters and PhD program 1506:The organisation seems to currently use 1136:Knowledge:Naming_conventions_(companies) 917: 456: 314:WikiProject State University of New York 1664: 332: 165: 60: 30: 391:Knowledge:WikiProject Higher education 245:Knowledge:WikiProject New York (state) 126:Knowledge:WikiProject Organized Labour 2333:WikiProject Higher education articles 2298:WikiProject Organized Labour articles 2073:to let others know (documentation at 1873:Hearing no objection, I am doing it. 1656:Thanks 06:12, 19 December 2010 (UTC) 1478:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/The U 1293:ILR vs Industrial and Labor Relations 643:Johnson Graduate School of Management 394:Template:WikiProject Higher education 248:Template:WikiProject New York (state) 129:Template:WikiProject Organized Labour 7: 1766:. State University Construction Fund 1637:The school was originally housed in 824:The result of the move request was: 359:This article is within the scope of 287:This article is within the scope of 221:This article is within the scope of 106:This article is within the scope of 1418:fact is that the school's name has 1178:on July 21, 2006. It was moved to 49:It is of interest to the following 1740:"Ives Hall Facilities Information" 1196:New York State College of Ceramics 1182:on December 12, 2010, and then to 1174:on April 1, 2004. It was moved to 619:Cornell University Graduate School 25: 18:Talk:Cornell University ILR School 2328:B-Class Higher education articles 2303:B-Class New York (state) articles 2288:B-Class organized labour articles 2168:. Please take a moment to review 2028:. Please take a moment to review 1900:. Please take a moment to review 1829:employment research and education 1693:Myers, Linda (October 14, 2004). 1647:International Labour Organization 1382:http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/about/ 1788:reflect the name of the school. 1210:) 01:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 645:, though. I'm also not sure why 352: 334: 208: 198: 167: 93: 83: 62: 31: 2186:Corrected formatting/usage for 2180:Corrected formatting/usage for 1852:List of deans of the ILR School 700:as well as on the school's own 449:. I reviewed the guidelines at 265:This article has been rated as 146:This article has been rated as 289:WikiProject Cornell University 1: 1868:12:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC) 1856:Cornell University ILR School 1841:13:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC) 1823:05:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC) 1801:04:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC) 1620:19:27, 18 December 2010 (UTC) 1601:14:09, 18 December 2010 (UTC) 1583:14:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 1508:Cornell University ILR School 1340:15:08, 31 December 2010 (UTC) 1323:14:55, 31 December 2010 (UTC) 1305:06:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC) 1287:13:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC) 1269:13:42, 20 December 2010 (UTC) 1255:05:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC) 1229:01:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC) 1184:Cornell University ILR School 1163:03:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 1148:01:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 1130:01:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 1102:01:26, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 913:01:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 887:01:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 865:01:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 847:Cornell University ILR School 792:20:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC) 778:01:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 764:01:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 737:00:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC) 714:06:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC) 692:03:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC) 673:01:16, 13 December 2010 (UTC) 582:06:35, 13 December 2010 (UTC) 311:This article is supported by 239:and see a list of open tasks. 120:and see a list of open tasks. 2318:Mid-importance SUNY articles 2152:00:07, 1 December 2016 (UTC) 1643:Martin P. Catherwood Library 1528:09:57, 12 January 2011 (UTC) 1109:State University of New York 1090:State University of New York 840:09:25, 18 January 2011 (UTC) 432:07:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC) 362:WikiProject Higher education 224:WikiProject New York (state) 109:WikiProject Organized Labour 2274:06:40, 13 August 2017 (UTC) 2012:02:12, 7 January 2016 (UTC) 1883:17:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC) 1491:04:25, 9 January 2011 (UTC) 1454:16:00, 8 January 2011 (UTC) 1433:11:57, 8 January 2011 (UTC) 1413:08:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC) 1398:04:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC) 1367:05:58, 2 January 2011 (UTC) 680:http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/ 2349: 2237:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2161:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 2115:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2021:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1977:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1918:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} 1893:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1567:http://hrlr.msu.edu/about/ 271:project's importance scale 152:project's importance scale 2323:WikiProject SUNY articles 1571:http://www.ilir.uiuc.edu/ 1107:The association with the 924:Cornell University School 748:William Jefferson Clinton 683:University ILR School"? — 463:Cornell University School 397:Higher education articles 347: 310: 286: 264: 251:New York (state) articles 193: 145: 132:organized labour articles 78: 57: 1542:Please do not modify it. 1328:This is also instructive 816:Please do not modify it. 381:, and see the project's 2157:External links modified 2017:External links modified 1889:External links modified 1516:Independent Local Radio 926:of Industrial and Labor 465:of Industrial and Labor 216:New York (state) portal 101:Organized Labour portal 307: 283: 39:This article is rated 2313:B-Class SUNY articles 1649:(the other being the 1552:Undergraduate program 1237:The proposed name is 874:... this seems quite 306: 282: 2218:regular verification 2096:regular verification 1958:regular verification 1943:to let others know. 1904:. If necessary, add 1742:. Cornell University 1721:. Cornell University 1675:. Cornell University 950:School of Industrial 941:School of Industrial 830:Deacon of Pndapetzim 2208:After February 2018 2086:After February 2018 2065:parameter below to 1948:After February 2018 1939:parameter below to 1651:Library of Congress 954:(per Notyourbroom) 952:and Labor Relations 943:and Labor Relations 2262:InternetArchiveBot 2213:InternetArchiveBot 2140:InternetArchiveBot 2091:InternetArchiveBot 1953:InternetArchiveBot 1673:"Regional Offices" 1243:Cornell ILR School 1092:at the same time. 1086:Cornell University 934:Cornell University 623:Cornell Law School 473:Cornell University 385:for useful advice. 308: 284: 180:Cornell University 45:content assessment 2238: 2116: 2010: 1978: 1699:Cornell Chronicle 1134:Also relevant is 1082: 1081: 1074:? 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Index

Talk:Cornell University ILR School

content assessment
WikiProjects
WikiProject icon
Organized Labour
WikiProject icon
icon
Organized Labour portal
WikiProject Organized Labour
Organized Labour
the discussion
Mid
project's importance scale
WikiProject icon
New York (state)
Cornell University
SUNY
WikiProject icon
New York (state) portal
WikiProject New York (state)
U.S. state
New York
the discussion
Low
project's importance scale
Taskforce icon
WikiProject Cornell University
inactive
Taskforce icon

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