Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 2

1446:

single use of the church described in this article calling herself the "Roman Catholic Church." All uses of the term "Holy Roman Church" clearly apply to the see of Rome, proper (e.g. "Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, who were all originally from the diocese of Rome). The term "Roman Catholic Church" was clearly used by an outside group, and still only a small portion of the world at that. All of these factors make it textually inaccurate to call this article "Roman Catholic Church." If the term had not already been assigned a meaning prior to it's use in England, it would be more acceptable to use it. For example, the term Orthodox Church had not existed as a title prior to the Great Schism, and so it was then it became a self-imposed title. As a general rule, it is wholly ahistorical to call a group of people a title contrived by a third party where knowledge of a self-imposed title exists. For a more dramatic example, to call the article titled "Eastern Orthodox Churches" "Schismatics" instead would be abhorent. I admit that feelings might be hurt, but this is inevitable. "Roman Catholic Church" might hurt the feelings of Eastern Particular churches. It also implies that there are two equal Roman and Anglo branches of some entity. The "Catholic Church" seems to portend the legitmacy of universal claims. Both sides just need to suck it up and side with academic precision. And, both sides need to realize that THE TITLE OF AN ARTICLE IS NOT AN ADVOCACY--"Eastern Orthodox Church" does not imply that this church is orthodox and the Catholic Church is novel and baseless. Revert to self-imposed titles as a standard, no matter the claims invovled (If the Anglican church wishes to call herself as a matter of title "Anglo-Catholic" or "Catholic" then that is what her article should be called.) The articles should be some thing like this:

2770:' - moving all critical material off into a separate article, so that anyone who attempts to balance the main article by mentioning critical opinion can be pointed to that one and told, "no, criticism belongs there". (In this case, it seems to be the opposite way round from what you might expect - Criticism of the Catholic Church is an entirely unreferenced and largely pro-church examination of a few selected controversies.) Positive and negative points of view should be kept together in the one article. Indeed, now I think about it, the 'Criticism' section here is not ideal; we should be ordering by topic, not by positive and negative views. So mentions of criticism of the church's stance on celibacy should be in a section about celibacy; historical criticism should be in the section about the relevant period of the church's history; and so on. On the other hand, the article is currently quite long, so splitting some parts off by 2583:

explicitly states they served Georgians of both the Byzantine & the Latin Rite. It goes on to confirm that a Georgian Byzantine Catholic community entered union with Rome, and numbered about 10,000 members at its peak. It does state that no hierarchy was formed, but it specifically acknowledges its existence. Other sources have spoken of the later extermination of the Georgian Catholics, including the Exarch in the 1930's by the Soviets, which was part of a wider persecution of Eastern Catholics that is well documented during the twentieth century. The statement of "you cannot have a particular church without a bishop" is a bit misleading because the bishop does exist, but need not be a bishop of the rite. There are Eastern Catholic Particular Churches under the care of a Latin Rite Bishops such as the Albanian, Belarusian, and Russian Byzantine Catholic Churches. That does not nullify the existence of those churches.

957:

well as, simultaneously presents a naturally anti-catholic bias from the onset.(you can't make everyone happy, but in siding with the anti-Catholic term the writer is not only being historically inconsistent but simply conveniently siding with the majority if the English speaking world of non-Catholic Christians even though Catholics comprise over 50% of the world's Christians.) He should present the topic as is written chronologically and historically. If documents that date back to a church that is nearly 2000 years old, claim themselves to be Catholic and proclaim the SAME fundamentals beliefs( Baptism with Holy water, Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, an authoritative Church run by Bishops, and is bound the church in Rome- not the Empire, etc.- see Ignatius and other Church Fathers - Polycarp, Clement, and Ireneus of the 1st and 2nd century

965:

RITES the largest being the western Latin(or Roman) Rite. However, we in the West completely ignore this since the "Western" schism (or Reformation) affected primarily the Latin rite not the eastern churches. Thus in utilizing the term "Roman" for the general Church you are simultaneously ignoring the entire Eastern Catholic Church(also in full communion with the Vatican, ie. Byzantine Catholic, Maronite Catholic and several others-MENTIONED FURTHER DOWN ON YOUR VERY PAGE) which have been part of the Church since the beginning and it's the very branch(the Byzantine Rite*of the Eastern Church, specifically) of the Catholic Church where a large PORTION if its base left almost 1000 years ago (eastern schism) and became what we commonly call the Orthodox Church. but is not "Roman" Catholic(aka Catholic Latin rite)].

592:; these laws excluded both Protestant dissenters and Roman Catholics from voting, the established universities, military service, and other offices of profit or privilege. These were generally enacted between the Restoration and the first quarter of the eighteenth century. Only a handful of them targeted Roman Catholics specifically; and some were repealed for non-Anglican Protestants before they were repealed for RCs. The position of a RC under these laws was not enviable, but there were very few populist risings against them or pogroms against them, except in Ireland, where religious violence went both ways, and tended to grow worse as the laws restricting Roman Catholicism were repealed. As religious persecutions go, it was there, but in retrospect it seems hard to call this one "intense." 2713:

jurisdiction, then the jurisdiction itself will have to be abolished. But for the present it is still listed, as various other Eastern-Rite jurisdictions, supposedly wiped out in the decades of Communist rule in eastern and central Europe, continued then to be listed. The case of Georgian Byzantine Catholics is completely different: no Georgian-Rite exarchate or other form of particular Church was ever set up. Whatever Byzantine Georgian Catholics there were and are, and whatever form of liturgy they attended, they have always belonged to the Catholic jurisdiction, Byzantine or, if necessary, Latin, of their place of residence, not to a distinct particular Church.

2632:

which has been headed since its inception by ordinaries who are themselves of Ethiopian Rite. But there has never been a Georgian Catholic Byzantine-Rite exarchate or eparchy, headed by any bishop of any rite. There have been, and may well still be, individual Byzantine-Rite Georgian Catholics, entrusted to the care of the head of a Latin-Rite jurisdiction, as today all Eastern-Rite Catholics, except Ukrainians and Melkites, living in New Zealand - including any Byzantine Georgians who may be there - are entrusted to the care of the heads of the Latin-Rite dioceses of that country. But there has never yet been a Georgian Catholic Byzantine-Rite particular Church.

1680:

a core of truth in the movement, it will survive the death of its leader, such as the lynching of Mormon founder Joseph Smith, and perhaps rally around another one, such as Brigham Young, who led an LDS remnant from Missouri to Utah. So we can define a cult as any new religious movement whose founder has not died. And by death, we're not talking about those close calls in the operating room where the heart stops for a few moments, we're talking about someone who is whipped to within an inch of His life, nailed to a cross all day, then buried in the ground over the weekend. So right away, Catholicism is not a cult because Christ has died.

1290:

bishops of all the same rites refer to all the churches in communion with the Holy See as the 'Holy Catholic Church' I think that's at least as good if not a darn sight better proof than what is used as rationale for using 'Roman Catholic' to refer to the whole. Anyway, my only concern is to not propogate incorrect usage in what is an encyclopedia rather than refer to the theological. Be that as it may, in English speaking counties it's a losing battle as non-latin rites make up only a small percentage of the Catholic populace and RC has become a shorthand for the whole. I've resigned myself to wincing slightly evertime I see it.

1386:'So the proper name for the universal Church is not the Roman Catholic Church. Far from it. That term caught on mostly in English-speaking countries; it was promoted mostly by Anglicans, supporters of the "branch theory" of the Church, namely, that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the creed was supposed to consist of three major branches, the Anglican, the Orthodox and the so-called Roman Catholic. It was to avoid that kind of interpretation that the English-speaking bishops at Vatican I succeeded in warning the Church away from ever using the term officially herself: It too easily could be misunderstood.' 1485:

seems like the best explanation of what this term means, however it also prejudges a theological issue that is still not determined in Catholic theology. Perhaps it would be best to use the original words and have an explanatory paragraph somewhere on the page, or elsewhere in Knowledge (XXG), explaining what the "subsists in" debate consists of. I have read through the Talk page discussion but have not seen this issue addressed. I haven't waded through the 500 or more revisions to the page, so I don't know whether this issue has been debated previously. Forgive me if this has already been dealt with.

1905:, the Pope is described more precisely as only the visible head of the Church." While I understand the ideas behind it, even with the qualification "seen as", the distinction between "visible head" is the "more precise" term only to Catholic believers; to those outside the church, "head" is the more accurate term for the Pope. Something worth considering is that Catholic faith is a minority position in the world at large; arguably, by Knowledge (XXG)'s policies, we should present the Catholic Church purely as an organisation, and mention only parenthetically what its members believe it represents. 2676:

with the Holy See. In addition, it provides a similar break-down for the Eastern Catholic Churches. In the section under the different churches of the Byzantine Rite, it lists our "Georgian Congregation in Constantinople" again, & notes it is a remnant of the independent Georgian Orthodox church that was destroyed by Russian when they annexed Georgia. It also indicated it is under the Latin jurisdiction. This article does not differentiate this listing as being different than the other 6 groups, the impression from it is that there is a Georgian Byzantine Catholic Church.

1236:

Protestantism have co-existed historically. Using the OED to describe internal Catholic structure isn't the answer either. The Catholics, at the time of the writing, in strongly anti-Catholic UK were and are predominately of the Latin rite and the intent of the opponents of "Catholic only” were to deny the use of the single word as a description and substitute RC. That’s not a controlling source, it’s a minority religion in a single country having to compromise in the culturally hostile environment vis-à-vis Catholicism in the U.K. of the 17th century.

2693:

CNEWA website lists a single entry for Byzantine Catholics in Former Yugoslavia, but notes of the new jurisdictions formed in the wake of the break-up of Yugoslavia. The information on the Latin Bishop of Skopje referenced earlier is also here. Obviously, there has been much disruption in the region in the last 15 years, & so there is still much that needs to be assessed and addressed regarding the faithful here. Many parishes were destroyed and populations were moved, and whether the populations will be able to return remains to be seen.

2672:

earlier. In addition, it refers to a small Georgian Rite Byzantine Catholic Parish in Constantinople (Istanbul). I had previously believed references to the church and the religious orders that occurred separately in different sources were noting the same institition, & I apologize for letting the misconception carry into this discussion. I presume the Latin Diocese founded in 1848 at Tiraspol covering Georgia and other parts of this region that were absorbed into the Russian Empire would be the hierarchy for all Catholics in the area.

1304:", they are not referring to the church headed by the Pope. Therefore, to say on Knowledge (XXG), "we believe that these people constitute the Holy Catholic Church" would be to affirm a claim of one set of a billion people, over the disagreement with that claim of another billion. So another name must, in my opinion, be sought, for neutrality and lack of ambiguity. At least in the UK, the common term is "Roman Catholic" (because someone here who says "I'm a Catholic" is almost equally likely to be an Anglican of 2236:.............. With respect to the "repeated information" comment, I disagree. Since the Catholic Church is the largest (and arguably the oldest) Christian body, it is necessary that its beliefs are presented as a unitary and easily comprehensible whole. The fact that other smaller Christian groups share many core beliefs should not affect this. A reader needs to know what the largest Religious body on earth believes, not just be told where peiople consider that it differs from some other groups. Xandar 1280:

Rome." So, one church or several? Theologically, obviously, Catholics regard it as one church; but Knowledge (XXG) is not a theological document. If one Church within the Catholic Communion regards itself as "self-governing"; and the Pope makes statements which apply only to the Latin Rite; then perhaps it would make more sense to have pages on the "Catholic Communion" or on "Catholicism"; then another on the "Roman Catholic" (i.e. Latin Rite) church, and on each of the others within the Communion.

2181:. The user attempting these changes did not discuss these widespread edits and I think this might even violate a naming convention on the issue. I also know that numerous attempts on this article, the main Roman Catholic Church article, to remove the word Roman and change the name to simple "Catholic Church" have been reverted. I invite folks to come look at the History article. A page protection may very well be needed if these multiple page moves and purge of the word "Roman" continue. - 1272:

which is claimed by the majority of orthodox Christian churches (those which use the Nicene or Apostles' Creed). Nevertheless, "Roman Catholic" is a common term (in my experience the most common term, but this may differ between different areas of the world) used to refer to the Church externally; and a term the Church appears to accept of itself. I do not wish to be "intellectually lazy"; but I find it hard to see how not accepting facts of which you provide no evidence is being so.

2510:, clearly indicates, on page 193, that a Georgian Catholic Byzantine-Rite particular Church never existed. (You cannot have a particular Church without a bishop.) It states that, in 1861, two now defunct religious congregations "of the Immaculate Conception" for Georgians (one male and one female) were founded in Constantinople, which explains the Blackwell reference to a Georgian church in that city. The church, and the congregations, must have been of Latin Rite: 553:; certainly there was persecution during that period, and some of it was intense; but "three centuries of intense persecution" would mean that the persecution was intense for all of those three centuries; and certainly by the end of the 18th century there were some Roman Catholic churches and colleges operating openly in Britain; which seems to indicate that, though there was still persecution, it could not really be characterised at that time as 'intense'. 31: 1309:

unwilling to call it the "Catholic Church". Many people have asserted that "Roman Catholic Church" means only the part of the church that uses the rite used in Rome, not the entire Church lead by the Bishop of Rome; but I've yet to see anything really constituting evidence of this, and it seems to have profound implications on the interpretation of various statements Popes have made if it is the case.

914:

article to be that church. If Knowledge (XXG) uses the term to mean the church which accepts the Pope as its head, then it appears to be saying, encyclopedically, that it believes the church headed by the Pope constitutes the church entitled to call itself Catholic (i.e. Universal) and all those other Christians are wrong. That doesn't appear to me to be an acceptable thing for an encyclopedia to do.

2486:

existing hierarch for the respective rite. This includes the Czech, Serbian & Montenegrin, and Macedonian Apostolic Exarchates. The latter two were separated from the Eparchy of Krizevci. The Macedonian Exarchate falls under the jurisdiction of the Latin Bishop of Skopje. My understanding is that the Exarch of Serbia and Montenegro of the Byzantine Rite is also not subject to Krizevci.

2025:

and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist all characteristics of the Catholic Church we see today as protected by Christ and is written in Matthew 16:17-19 and is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Read the Early Church Fathers here from this Protestant site and tell me collectively that it does note essentially describe the same Catholic Church we see today.

1276:

cannot truly be regarded, from Knowledge (XXG)'s point of view as the same organisation. They are churches in communion, certainly; the Church of England and Church in Wales are in communion, but they have separate Knowledge (XXG) pages. They acknowledge fealty to the same pontiff, certainly; but the United Kingdom and Australia have the same Queen, but are different countries.

1967:

the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist all characteristics of the Catholic Church we see today as protected by Christ and is written in Matthew 16:17-19 and is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Read the Early Church Fathers here from this Protestant site and tell me collectively that they do not essentially describe the same Catholic Church we see today.

2717:

the impression of a sudden slump in the number of Byzantine Catholics in the statistics, which are retrospective to 1990, when all three were a single jurisdiction. And it seems quite natural to write, as yet, of all three together, because of their common history and very recent division. CNEWA certainly did not intend to distance itself from the

2018:

Hippo and Carthage in 393 and 397A.D. respectively? (Protestants accept the Catholic N.T. but reject the O.T. ,accepting the O.T. devised by Christ rejecting Pharisees in Jamnia, in 90 AD- 57 years after Christ had declared the Church's authority to bind and loosen Mt 16 & 18). See this Protestant site regarding the history of the Bible

1960:

and Carthage in 393 and 397A.D. respectively? (Protestants accept the Catholic N.T. but reject the O.T. ,accepting the O.T. devised by Christ rejecting Pharisees in Jamnia, in 90 AD- 57 years after Christ had declared the Church's authority to bind and loosen Mt 16 & 18). See this Protestant site regarding the history of the Bible

565:

the time explicitly witheld by law (as they also were, in the case of voting for example, to women and non-land-owning men). This is not to deny the injustice of the treatment; but to refer to things like the right to vote, and to freedom of religion, as rights seems only to express an opinion that the editor believes such things

2482:

Orthodox, but of the separate, "Oriental Orthodox" Armenian Church. The Byzantine Rite was illegal until 1905, & only officially tolerated after that until 1917. There has been no organized hierarchy of this church at this time. The exarch was murdered in 1937 & many priests were also killed or sent to gulags.

2522:"fall under the jurisdiction of the Latin Bishop of Skopje", any more than the Diocese of Brooklyn "falls under the jurisdiction of" the Archbishop of New York. Each ecclesiastical jurisdiction is either part of an ecclesiastical province (metropolia) or is otherwise associated with some other jurisdiction; but it is not 2871:

ancient Christian Churches led by the Patriarchs of Antioch, Jerusalem, and Constantinople (commonly called the Ecumenical Patriarch) and the other hierarchs in communion with them," and, "The Oriental Orthodox Church is the ancient Christian Church led by the Patriarch of Alexandria (commonly called the Coptic Pope)."

2312:

church was extinct, this rite did at one time exist, & so should remain acknowledged in this article the same way in which some of the defunct Western Rites are noted (and rightfully so I might add). The current political situation in Georgia itself is very volatile, & religious persecution has been reported.

1415:

Church itself uses: not in its governing documents - as the document you linked to says, it was a deliberate decision not to use it there, in order to express the church's own point of view over competing ones - but in circumstances where, to ensure harmony with other churches, it cannot use the disputed term.

2639:. In that narrow sense, a papal encyclical does not become "official" until it is printed in that "government gazette" a month or more after it has been signed by the Pope and given to the public. An encyclical does not have to wait that long to be "official" in the ordinary sense of the word. Nor does the 2680:

regime. The metropolitan "sui juris" American Byzantine church statistics are also provided. The un-defined relationship between these three jurisdictions is contained here. While still technically one church, listing it as such based solely on an "authoritative" source would exclude this information.

2591:

such. A balanced article should strive to integrate as many different sources as possible, as in some cases "authoritative" sources of information shy away from "unpleasant" facts and details. Independent confirmation through various sources is vital to maintaining the accuracy of any article. Does the

2870:

I don't feel the sentence is making the claim you think it does. It is stating that the "Roman Catholic Church" is an ancient church, defined by those who accecpt the authority of the bishop of Rome. Similarly, the article for the Orthodox churches could start: "The Eastern Orthodox Churches are the

2839:

I understand it all right and have lived under such a regeime. No need to tell me anything about the suppression of free thought or open debate. Now let us cut the side show and concentrate on the subject. In itself, it is telling that any reference to facists is automatically regarded as "wrong".

2742:

Re the Annuario Pontificio and the Exarcate of Habrin in China: you keep in mind that pproviding a name and an address for the Exarach will lead to his arrest and detention by the Chinese communist government. Just take a look at the Catholic Sees in China and notice how many f those are vacant with

2724:

Anonymous User is right abot the relationship of the Bishop of the Latin-Rite diocese of Skopje with the Exarchate of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. I apologize for not having checked earlier, and for having therefore previously written beside the point. It is stated on page 1036 of the

2595:

acknowledge the conversion of 100 Czech priests to the Byzantine Rite in order to remove questions of their being "secretly" married? Is it possible that this had no bearing on the decision to create a separate jurisdiction for the Byzantine Rite in the Czech Republic in 1996, of course, but it is a

2477:

The existence of a Georgian Rite Catholic Church in the city of Constantinople (now referred to as Istanbul) is provided in the Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity (1999), under the entry of Georgia. Another source for Georgian Rite Catholics is the 1974 Oriente Cattolico, which is a survey

1989:

Sounds like POV to me, and not to subtle at that. But, people have a right ot believe as they choose, whether or not it is correct. I did, however, give the courtesy of looking at her site. I didn't find anything, however, that even slightly represented accurate Catholic teaching. They managed to

1959:

Can believer in Christ and the Bible say that Catholicism is such a cult, yet accept the half of the bible, the New Tesament which was organized and declared inspired Word of God by a group of Catholic Bishops lead by the great Catholic Theologian-Philosipher St. Augustine during the Synods of Hippo

1880:

I see TSP's point about "the one", which I interpreted differently. Since Robert Bellarmine wrote in Latin (a language that has neither definite nor indefinite articles), an equally good or - if "the one" is interpreted as TSP does interpret it - a better translation would be "a single": "the society

1723:

Anybody that truly reads the Bible can realize that YES the catholic church deviates A LOT from scriptures. The book of Hebrews talks about Jesus being the ONLY PRIEST and that no more sacrifice for sins is needed after Jesus's sacrifice. It's not scriptural to believe that a sinful man can represent

1705:

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe all christians (Catholic or Protestant) pray in some kind of public place (i.e. in churches), and therefore all Christian sects violate at least this much scripture. I understand that Catholics do not obey every commandment of there religion, but I don't believe

1679:

The crucial moment for any new religious movement is the death of its founder. If the movement was centered around one strong figure merely to allow him to exercise power over the men and get sexual favors from the women, then it most likely will shatter upon that leader's death. If there is at least

1271:

I realise that the Catholic Church does not, where it has the choice (i.e. in its internal documents, such as its catechism), refer to itself as "Roman Catholic" - it would have no reason to do so, as we know that it is not its preferred term; its preferred term being a word, meaning "all-embracing",

1235:

The sources being used for using "Roman" Catholic Church aren't exactly controlling documents. An agreement between Catholics, Methodists and other protestants in the US, UK or Western Europe would contain "Roman Catholic" because that it is the only rite predominately in areas where Catholicism and

1095:

Well, as regards that matter of opinion, not at all. I am sure that in Augustine's eyes, the Anglican Church, Eastern Orthodox Churches, Methodist Church, and so on, would all be heretics; and he would consider their willingness to use the term "Catholic" to refer to the church headed by the pope as

156:

There is a problem canonically with the statement the pope appoints bishops in the Eastern Church. Whoever has a copy of the Code of Canon Law, would you please correct? Strictly speaking, most of them are either elected with confirmation from Rome or they choose a couple of names and the Pope picks

3158:

In view of the way Knowledge (XXG) is edited, the language versions are bound to differ. To see a view of the Roman Catholic Church vastly different from that in the Latin version, just read the Sicilian-language page (a basic knowledge of standard Italian is enough for understanding it), which must

3033:

By the way, the title "Ecumenical Patriarch" was never conceded to Constantinople by an Ecumenical Council. It was unilaterally assumed by the Patriarch of Constantinople and, as such, can, at the very best, be regarded as a "claim" not universally admitted - even among the Oriental Churches. here

2965:

POV(!), I agree that it's not quite appropriate for a Knowledge (XXG) article. However, I recall from one of the NPOV pages (perhaps the tutorial) that "claims" is not ideal either, as it carries a slight insinuation that the claim is false (like "alleges"). I'd be happy with changing "the" to "an",

2914:

Why is that this opening paragraph has undergone several revsions and always reverts to the same text? Can it be that those who have given alternatives (and there have been not a few) are always wrong on every point? This indicates a very remarkable mide-set, indeed one closed to any suggestion or

2795:

I put up a posting on the term "Papists", for which there is a long tradition of use in the English language. It derives from same cultural context that generated the use of the term "Roman Catholic". It was removed in a very fascist manner without any form of explanation, dialogue or discussion.

2687:

and lists membership data on 19 of the churches. The Belarusan, Russian, & Georgian Churches were not on the list. The entry for The Greek Catholics of the Former Yugoslavia contains the Croatian Eparchy, the Macedonian Apostolic Exarchate, & the Exarchate of Serbia/Montenegro. Since this

2582:

As to the church never existing, sources provided here state otherwise. An additional source is an entry in the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2nd Edition entitled "Georgian Byzantine Catholics" and published in 2003. The article confirms the existence of the two congregations in Constantinople, &

2064:

Yes, good idea. It serves almost no purpose as it is, because it's too long for people to properly be aware of what has been and is being discussed. To give a concrete example, in the 'Terminology' section, I proposed a change to the page; waited several months to see if anyone objected; then made

2024:

Historical [[Image:fact from the 1st and 2nd centuries, shows that the Catholic Church existed, is named and described by the earliest of Church Fathers, Iganatius, Polycarp, Ireneus, and Justin Martyr. Additionally, they all believed they were bound to the Church in Rome, the authority of bishops,

1895:

Perhaps; it's mostly just that I don't think that a quote is likely to be the best way to provide a first-sentence definition of an organisation. One of the things that concerns me about this article is that it is almost entirely sourced from the Catechism and other internal church sources; meaning

1842:

Yes, I'm afraid that 'visible and spiritual head' sounds distinctly like jargon to me; I don't think it's really appropriate for a general-use encyclopedia. Personally I was happy with just 'head', in that an encyclopedia can only really hope to cover the effable and worldly, and in a worldly sense

1757:

Many sources are quoted throughout the article. The opening section alone quotes a Second Vatican Council document, the Statistical Yearbook of the Church and the Annuario Pontificio. What statements does Brian0918 want sourced? What further information is required for identifying, for instance, a

1701:

Matthew 6:5-6 "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when

1414:

I'm not particularly wedded to the title "Roman Catholic Church"; but as that document says, to use the title "Catholic Church" is to express a disputed opinion. I believe that another title is necessary; and "Roman Catholic Church" seems to be both the one in most common use; and the one which the

1144:

used. The term "Catholic Church" is in fact used in this sense, as is stated also in other Knowledge (XXG) articles. Nobody is forcing Paulleake to use it himself in this sense. Nor does he have the authority or power to prevent others from using it in this sense. In this article, both terms are

1032:

Sorry, I've realised that my request was unclear - I was actually hoping that you'd comment on the Augustine quote, which, as I've explained above, I think should be removed (from the 'Terminology' section, at least); but which you restored earlier today. I have noticed, though, that the purpose of

913:

does not use it in much of its ecumenical work; because it is a controversial term, which by no means all people accept. A couple of billion people stand up in church on a Sunday and say they belong to a "holy catholic and apostolic church"; perhaps half of them believe the church described in this

899:

is to "give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity". So there are two principles here. The first is that what is important is the commonly-used term, not necessarily the official or technical term. The second, which is

191:

I'm not sure why this is necessarily considered a problem. The existence of Protestantism is not absolutely relevant to a discussion of the beliefs and structure of the Catholic Church. If one were discussing the constitution and character of the British Isles one wouldn't necessarily talk about the

3078:

I've removed this. Quite apart from the dubious significance of such categories, it is by no means possible to neutrally say that the Roman Catholic Church was founded in 33 AD. Even if you do believe that the Roman Catholic Church represents the Christian Church founded by Jesus, and that he did

2932:

If you look back in the history, the opening paragraph has changed a number of times - even a month ago it was different to its current state. However, changes have usually been made after discussion here on the talk page, rather than as a unilateral action; because such a change has a significant

2928:

Opening paragraphs are very important in Knowledge (XXG) articles, because they set the tone of what is to come; this means they are subject to several rules and guidelines on what they should contain. It also means that they tend to be the first target for people wanting to change the tone of the

2489:

The Ruthenian case is unique, as both the Czech and United States Churches are officially of the Ruthenian Rite, but each jurisdiction is independent and they do not fall under the Eparchy in Mukaèevo, even though the bishop is listed as the head of the church. This will presumably be addressed at

1966:

Historical fact from the 1st and 2nd centuries, shows that the Catholic Church existed, is named and described by the earliest of Church Fathers, Iganatius, Polycarp, Ireneus, and Justin Martyr. Additionally, they all believed they were bound to the Church in Rome, in the authority of bishops, and

1657:

Isn't it the case that every one of the Christian denominations is a cult, from an encyclopedic point of view? Not in the sense of a group of wierdos who kidnap impressionable young people etc - but in the sense that to give one denomination a higher status than any other would not be NPOV. There

1406:

are that universal church, or that no one denomination constitutes that church. As an encyclopedia, we should not identify with either view, but simply report on both. To use the term 'Catholic Church' to mean 'the church headed by the Pope' - rather than, for example, to mean 'the combination of

1392:

In other words, the term "Catholic Church", applied to the Church headed by the Pope, is one which expresses a point of view; it expresses the belief that the church under the Roman Pontiff is the universal church established by Christ, and that other bodies calling themselves churches are not part

1279:

The web site of the Eparchy of Passaic is extremely interesting. Among other things, it says: "Many Catholics are not aware that Catholicism is actually a collection of Churches in union with Rome"; and refers to the Metropolitia of Pittsburgh as "America's only self-governing Church in union with

1275:

Of course, if when signing documents in the name of "The Roman Catholic Church" the Pope does not sign on behalf of all parts of the Catholic Church, then we have a new and interesting issue, which I have been pondering for some time. That would seem to mean that there are different Churches which

1249:

Because of the predominance of the Roman rite it's easy to "cherry-pick" sources. The Catechism of the Catholic church does not contain the words "Roman Catholic" but refers to the Holy Catholic Church as does the Second Vatican council. RC is colloquially ok I suppose, but for an encyclopedia that

1195:

As a Catholic I'd say the "Roman Catholic Church" applies, technically, only to that part of the church under papal guidance that follows the Latin rite. There are Unite (Ukrainian), Armenian, Maronite and a handfull of other rites that are also Catholic, whose bishops follow papal doctrine and are

1109:

Why is one of these explanations of why the term 'Catholic' is commonly applied to mean the Roman Catholic Church alone worthy of inclusion, but the other not? Is it 'censorship' not to include Walther's views? (I don't mean to imply that I agree with Walther; but if a quote that is biased in one

1103:

Since from this it is now clear that the name "Catholic" has a new meaning, namely the Roman papacy with all its atrocities and in no way the universal Christian Church, and thus indicates a sect, obviously no one who recognizes the Word of God as the true rule of the Christian faith can trouble

1060:

On the other hand, is it appropriate for a Terminology section? Using that particular quote to back up the position of using "Catholic" basically states "we are using the term 'Catholic', because only members of this church are not heretics". Indeed, that quote seems to provide a very good reason

1033:

the Terminology section seems to have changed since June (it was originally an explanation of terminology use within the article; it seems to be starting to become a general discussion on use of the terms 'Catholic' and 'Roman Catholic'), so I admit that my criticisms may have become less relevant.

956:

I completely disagree with the term “Roman” Catholic, not only is it a term coined by those which separated from the Church many centuries after its foundation, but is technically and historically incorrect. By being politically correct the writer serves to create more confusion, and ignorance, as

701:

Instead of this dense theological language, why not describe the structure of the liturgy? (Liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist). What would a visitor observe at each stage? Then, briefly explain the theological significance (anyone interested in reading more theological explanation in

459:

This is beyond the scope of this artcile. This is about the Church, written to explain it to a reader. If you would like to debate the Church and its role, perhaps the Catholic Answers Forums at catholic.com would be a better venue. I agree though, in any endeavor, if you can't live by the promises

387:

I agree fully that it isn't necessarily valid to say: "It's wrong to have a section on (N) when (M) doesn't have a section." I wonder, however, if it's necessarily valid to say: "Though (N) is no more significant than (A), (B), (C), ....(M), (O), (P), ... (Z), still there has to be a section on (N)

356:

Though I do not think the Anti-Semitism subsection is POV, I do think it disproportionate and out of place. Why have a special subsection on this question alone, and on no other criticism or controversy? And its length, even if not quite sufficient for forming an article on its own, would certainly

346:

aticle called anti-semitism could in itself seem POV and be misleading or suggestive. There should be mention of allegations of anti-semitism in the article but by no means a category. When looking at the article on Islam there was no category on terrorism or anti-westernism, which I see completely

2716:

The CNEWA .pdf page is interested only in statistics, not in listing Eastern-Rite Catholic Churches. Accordingly it makes no mention of those Churches for which no statistics are available. Presumably, it places together the three jurisdictions now existing in what was Yugoslavia to avoid giving

2679:

Returning to the CNEWA website, the explanation of the Ruthenian Rite Church also includes the information on the establishment of the Czech jurisdiction that was "officially" classified as Ruthenian while serving to deal with the issue of "married" Latin priests that occurred during the communist

2631:

Anonymous User rightly remarks that there are Eastern-Rite eparchies headed by hierarchs who are, personally, of Latin Rite. There are also Latin-Rite jurisdictions headed by ordinaries who are, personally, of an Eastern Rite. An example is the Latin-Rite Apostolic Vicariate of Meki in Ethiopia,

2577:

The "unnecessary" task of looking up the entry in the Blackwell Dictionary of Eastern Christianity seems relevant to this discussion. I was not referring to the building itself, but the two congregations established in the middle of the 19th century in Constantinople for Georgian Catholics of the

2565:

I'm afraid that Lima's argument still seems to be holding more water at the moment. Lima has provided a Vatican-published list; this seems to be the most useful thing to report. If you (the anonymous user) can identify, AND PROVIDE A SOURCE FOR EACH ONE, other churches not on this list but which

2485:

Sites such as the ones referenced above are not indicating that each and every church in each country are a separate rite, but they are noting that there are specific cases where the formation of independent Apostolic Exarchate has occurred, which is not directly subject to the jurisdiction of the

2260:

I removed the whole template for "deleted from Good Article". It seemed that editing make it a bad article, and that goes against what we SHOULD be doing at wikipedia. No hoghprofile or controversial article could be considered good with this arbitrary criteria. I still dont see a good reason for

2017:

at Can believer in Christ and the Bible say that Catholicism is such a cult, yet accept the half of the bible, the New Tesament which was organized and declared inspired Word of God by a group of Catholic Bishops lead by the great Catholic Theologian-Philosipher St. Augustine during the Synods of

1484:

In the second paragraph of the article, Vatican II's Lumen Gentium is quoted as saying that "the sole Church of Christ" ... has a concrete realization "in the Catholic Church". Lumen Gentium uses the Latin term "subsistit in" which translates as "subsists in." The expression "concrete realization"

1217:

My understanding of the history of the term (I think I've cited the OED elsewhere; I can, if I haven't) is that it was originally a 17th-century English compromise between the term 'Catholic' - which, as it is has a meaning of 'all-encompassing', 17th-century English commentators were unwilling to

968:

The proper use of this term "ROMAN" is when speaking specifically of the geographic Roman Church in Rome (just as one would speak of the Parisian Church as the church in Paris) which IS both a geographical Archdiocese(district) of the Catholic Church and the geographic capital-though now actually

964:

MY TWO Cents worth regarding the improper/informal term "ROMAN" Catholic: First one must understand what is the topic discussed. If speaking of the entire Universal Church(which is what is discussed here) the use of the word "ROMAN" is improper. 2)The Catholic Church is made up of various global

810:

I'd tend to think that all that is really appropriate in this section is the current first paragraph: "Since the term "Catholic Church" has multiple meanings (see Catholicism), this article uses the term "Roman Catholic Church", to avoid confusion. The relationship between the Western or Latin and

765:(The figure in the 2003 Statistical Yearbook of the Church, based on the annual statistical reports sent by Catholic dioceses throughout the world, is 1,085,557,000; because of obstacles to regular contacts, this figure does not include Catholics in mainland China and perhaps in some other places.) 564:

article seems to indicate that the term refers to rights guaranteed by law or a constitution, or generally held to be innate. I'm not convinced that it makes sense, or at the least it seems to express a particular point of view, to use the term in a historical context about 'rights' which were at

498:

It is my understanding that celibacy is the priest's forgoing the marital union in the hopes of a more complete eventual union with God. Also, celibacy is supposed to remove "distractions" from the love of God in the work of a priest. --Perhaps this could be included in the section that discusses

2675:

The link that Lima provided to the New Advent site that includes the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia was a wealth of useful information, despite being almost 90 years old. In the article on the Eastern Churches, it provides a opinion (slanted as it may be) on each of the eastern churches not in union

2616:

Anonymous User says that the "Catholic Encyclopedia, 2nd Edition ... published in 2003", which is unknown to me, states that no hierarchy was formed for Georgian Byzantine Catholics. In other words, no distinct particular Church was ever set up for Georgian Byzantine Catholics. Accordingly, if a

2502:

I don't think it necessary to look up the Blackwell Dictionary: the very phrase that Anonymous User employs, "The existence of a Georgian Rite Catholic Church in the city of Constantinople", points to the meaning: "a Georgian Catholic church" (lower case), i.e. a building, not a Georgian Catholic

2307:

The Czech rite was created in 1996 as a new Apostolic Exarchate for Eastern Rite Catholics in the Czech Republic. It included those of Ruthenian (Rusyn) Descent & might officially be listed as being part of the Ruthenian rite, but it was also formed "unofficially" to facilitate the switching

1857:

policy, particularly the 'Neutral Tone' section. This article needs to cover the subject of the church in fashion that is factual, well-sourced, and neutrally-presented; at the moment, a lot of the article is distinctly from a Roman Catholic point of view; whereas a factual and neutrally-written

1831:

I notice that the phrasing of the position of the pope vis-a-vis the (earthly) Church has seemed difficult to achieve a consensus on. "Visible and spiritual head" sounds right in orthodox Catholic thought, but it has been reverted or modified various times. Can we do a better job of satifying the

1564:

As a Protestant, I have always regarded the Romish 'church' as being a cult, given the fact that its belief system is actually deviating from scripture, especially in terms of equating the Pope of Rome with God. The Ten Commandments is very clear in this - 'Thou shalt not worship false gods &

1453:

Uner the title: "Catholic Church" 1. The notion of a Universal Church, see "Catholicism" 2. The whole universal church consisting of three major branches....(Again if the Anglican Church makes this claim herself. I am sorry once more for the comparative ignorance on my part.) 3. The univsersal

1449:

Under the title: "Roman Catholic Church" 1. The territorial jurisdiction and all people therin over which the Roman Pontiff, as Bishop of Rome, exercises authority as LOCAL ordinary. 2. A portion of the Universal Church consisting of Anglicans, Romans, and Orthodox. (If the Anglican Church makes

1445:

A humble point: I feel that this discussion is an example (admittedly one with little impact) of the deterioration of scholarly precision. The term "Roman Catholic Church" to mean the Latin/Roman Rite clearly predates its use meaning "those in communion with the Bishop of Rome." There is not a

1289:

Interesting comments. My answer, which I should have fleshed out, that in the Catechism of the Catholic church and the work of the Second Vatican council were valid sources. The first a statement that reflects the doctrine of all the rites and the second a collection of decisions by a meeting of

1213:

indicating that this is what the Church, or indeed anyone else authoritative, considers the term to mean? I'd take the multiple statements that the church has made under the name "The Roman Catholic Church" as a source that at least suggests that they believe the term to refer to the Church as a

1135:

The terminology used in the documents was agreed on by both parties. Similar documents on discussions with Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists etc. have "Roman Catholic Church", not "Catholic Church", again as accepted by both sides. They can be found on the same Vatican website. The question is not

697:

For example, the first two paragraphs of the liturgy section describe the liturgy as "the celebration of the mystery of Christ, in particular the Paschal mystery of his death and resurrection. . . is something that 'the whole Christ' Head and Body, celebrates - Christ the one High Priest together

617:

881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock.400 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head."401 This

130:

ARGHHH! There is nothing wrong with documenting this structure. The presence of the documentation does not mean that Knowledge (XXG) endorses the structure; on its own, the documentation is inherently neutral. If I went to create an article on the sky, I should be able to say that the sky is blue

2692:

but not here, so if please tell me if I am missing something on this. On the surface, the separation of the Macedonian Church in 2000 and the similar split in 2003 for Serbia/Montenegro look the same. Other sources have listed the Serbian Catholic Church separately as well. The article in the

2590:

being an "authoritative" source, I have no issue with using it, but I do not agree that it should be the only source used to the point of dismissing all other sources of information. Regarding the status of the source, it cannot be called official if the Holy See itself does not designate it is

2430:

But how many of these are particular Churches in a sense higher than the sense in which each individual eparchy (diocese) and each individual metropolitan Church (ecclesiastical province) is a particular Church? In other words, how many of them have the status of autonomous ("sui iuris") ritual

2311:

The Georgian Rite previously was acknowledged as a separate rite, including being listed in previous editions of the source listed for this section of the article. While it's survival is definitely in question, it has not declared extinct anywhere by the church that I am aware of. Even if this

806:

article does a good job of exploring the different meanings of, and claims to the term; whereas this article currently contradicts that, appearing to assert that not only is the Roman Catholic Church the only real claimant to the term "Catholic", but other Christians clearly accept that they are

801:

be inappropriate for Knowledge (XXG) to unambiguously grant the title "Catholic" to the churches in communion with the Pope, given that a large proportion of the world's Christians consider themselves to be part of the "Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" despite not recognising the Pope as its

693:

This article is very long, dense, technical and "jargon" heavy. I have to wonder how helpful it would be to a casual reader with limited exposure to Catholicism. I think it needs to be re-written with a more "sociological" and less theological perspective. Objectively describe describe what a

376:

sufficient things can be said about allegations of anti-semitism against the church. The length of the section probably is excessive, though; mostly because of the vast length of the pro-Church material contained in it. As a postscript, incidentally, I don't think it's necessarily valid to say

2599:

The defining of the Ruthenian Church will not be made by me, but acknowledgement of the current situation increases the accuracy of this article. Simply listing this as one particular church ignores the development of what has become the three separate jurisdictions. The Church in the U.S. is

2481:

As to the point above about Byzantine Catholics in Georgia coming under the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church, it is possible, but many actually went underground by joining the Armenian Catholic Church. There was less opposition to this church, it was not seen as an encroachment of the Eastern

2384:

To expand on the Georgian Catholic Church, a July 5, 2005 article in Crisis Magazine that covers the different Eastern Rite Churches briefly chronicles the Georgian Catholic Church, including the fate of the Exarch in 1937. Citation: "The Other Catholics: A Short Guide to the Eastern Catholic

2218:

Stability. There still seem to be significant parts of the article which are disputed or still extensively edited. The creeping replacement by various editors of "Roman Catholic" with "Catholic", though the terminology section states that the two will be used interchangeably, is an example of

1870:

Regarding the issue of this section, I've currently put the church down as "led by" the Pope. I'm not sure what the best way is, if at all, to approach the point that Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is the real leader of the Catholic Church (of course, all Christians believe that all their

839:

Why offended Eastern Catholics twice on wiki? Eastern Catholics are members of "Eastern" and "Orthodox" Churches, but are in union with Rome (the Roman Church). Eastern Catholics are **NOT** Roman Catholics. Eastern Catholics are Catholics. Both articles on the "Eastern Orthodox Church" and the

623:

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full,

281:

Who are we to say that Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. are incorrect in their beliefs about the sacraments? We may state fatually that the RCC believes there are seven sacraments, but we may not state factually that there are exactly seven sacraments. It is a difference of

95:

The power of appointing nearly all the bishops, even many of the Eastern Catholic Churches, is solely in the hands of the Pope, who also appoints all those (the cardinals) who, in turn, choose which man next exercises the same power. The Pope is also the absolute ruler of the independent state,

2671:

The CNEWA Website also provides a description of the specific particular churches, including four without hierarchies, the Georgian, Russian, Belarusan, & Albanian churches. Returning the the Georgian discussion, this entry notes the existence of the two extinct religious orders mentioned

2663:

Note: I have corrected the above reference as it was the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2nd Edition that was published in 2003, that was a "data entry" error on my end. The article name is correct, "Georgian Byzantine Catholics." The information in the article is derived from a book by Ronald G.

2226:

I don't want to malign anyone's work - and a great deal of excellent work has gone into this article; but I think that the label of 'Good Article' might give editors the impression that this article has reached heights which I don't think it yet has. I think it still needs a lot of work; and,

2045:

Just a note about paganism. As far as I'm aware 'pagan' comes from a root meaning rural or of the country. The implication being that while Christianity was seen as urbane and urban, the indigenous beliefs were trivial by comparison. Many people today believe that institutional Christianity is

1124:

manages to set things out in a more neutral point of view. A claim that the Catholic Church = the Roman Catholic Church is a claim of theological point of view. Having found colloquial uses, or agreements between other churches and the RC church (where surely each party would use the name it

1047:

The quotation is decidedly apposite. Augustine cannot be accused of expressing a non-neutral point of view about the twenty-first century situation. If the cap fits... Concealing the historical fact that Augustine made the remark would be censorship for the sake of a particular point of view.

1021:

Catholic Church, for otherwise the article will attract all sorts of battling insertions about what is meant by "Catholic Church"; but I see no need for uniformity (between "Catholic Church" and "Roman Catholic Church") within the article itself. I would be very happy with a more or less equal

341:

I think that having a section on anti-semitism is pov regardless of what it says in the section. This article is supposed to be a factual encyclopedia article on the Roman Catholic Church, there have been alligations of anti-semitism, and it may be useful to state that in the article. There is

1308:

inclinations); and it seems that the Church itself - assuming the Pope IS speaking for the whole Church, not just the Latin Rite - is happy to call itself the "Roman Catholic Church" in official pronouncements, and that this is the title preferred by the church when working with organisations

2438:

classification and might ask why, for instance, if it reckons the Macedonian Church as a separate Byzantine Catholic Church, it does not do the same for this or that other Church. But Knowledge (XXG), as TSP has rightly indicated, cannot set up its own classification; it must limit itself to

1181:

It's an issue because among Catholics--Roman, Maronite, Ukrianian, Armenian and so on Catholic churches to use "Roman" Catholic is incorrect. This article is more than an article on the Latin rite known as "Roman Catholic" its focus is on the whole church historically and theologically. It's

3029:

I do not think that the business about " an ancient Church" works. For quite a while, you know, all of the Oriental Patriarchates recognised the Roman Primacy and the existence of but one Church. "An ancient Church", apart from the historical problem, would be anachronistic and clearly an

2712:

gives no statistics about them. This is the case, for instance, of the Exarchate of Harbin, China, founded in 1928, and still listed as a component jurisdiction of the Byzantine Russian Catholic Church. If some day it is ascertained that there are no longer any Catholics belonging to this

2308:

rites needed for approximately 100 or so Czech priests who were married. The precedent is there for this being a separate rite, as the Hungarian Rite Church also originated as a separate jurisdiction for Ruthenians in Hungary that was supplemented by those of Hungarian and other origins.

2214:

Neutral Point of View. While attempts have been made to ameliorate it with phrases such as "according to the Church" and "adherents believe", a great deal of the article still seems to me to express a Catholic point of view, rather than to neutrally report on the organisation. I think the

1617:

Surely the primary point, in this context, is that any editor's opinion on whether the Church is a cult is irrelevant. It may be possible to encyclopedically note if any notable people or groups have claimed that it is a cult. Anything besides that is outside our remit as an encyclopedia.

1064:

I don't propose "censoring" Augustine's views; but it doesn't really seem to be being presented as a historical view at the moment, but as representative of the current situation. Which quotes you select to make a point can express point of view just as much as an original opinion does.

1697:

Catholicism was the first and is the biggest form of Christianity in the world today. Catholicism may deviate from some scripture, much in the way that many protestant sects or eastern orthodox sects do. After all, according to Matthew 6:5-6, no one is supposed to pray in public at all.

100:

There's no criticism here. All it's stating is Church's structure. Could someone please write in some criticism about why people dislike this structure? If no one does, I'm going to remove it from the criticism section, since it says nothing about what critics say to this. Thanks!

2318:

Before ranking Czech Byzantine Catholics as a separate particular Church, we should wait for that status to be given to them, just as, when Hungarian Byzantines still formed part of the Ruthenian Church, it would have been wrong to reckon them, prematurely, as a distinct particular

1607:, although traditionally the smear is that Catholics are directly worshipping Mary or other saints. I've never heard the claim that the "Pope of Rome" is being equated with God -- that being, y'know, something I think I would have been notified of if it was part of my religion. -- 2461:

nor the editions immediately preceding have any mention of a Byzantine Catholic Church of Georgia. Perhaps Byzantine Catholics in Georgia come under the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church, which I now see comprises an exarchate in China as well as in Russia, a point I must add to

1043:

Please accept my apologies. Though I did realize almost immediately after writing the above hurried comment, that the request made to me was for an observation on the Saint Augustine quotation, I have not been able to find time until now to come back and address that question.

135:

a soapbox. As to the stuff about the pope being an absolute ruler, well, the Vatican City is an absolute monarchy. Should we go back to every article about every absolute monarchy that ever existed and put in something about how some people think absolute monarchies suck? Geez.

1915:

It is interesting to read this stream, especially in light of the proposed 'Britishness' citizenship test. Neither the Archbishop of Canterbury's office nor that of the Queen could provide an answer to the question 'Who is the Head of the Church of England?' (Mark, Birmingham)

2785:

It seems to me that balance (aka impartiality) will require another section entitled "Encomium of the Catholic Church" if you include a section entitled "Criticism of the Catholic Church". Otherwise, the whole enterprise degenerates into mere polemic. Thus, you have both or

2324:

It would be interesting to know in which "previous editions" (plural) "of the source listed for this section of the article" Georgian Byzantine Catholics were acknowledged as a distinct particular Church or Rite. I have failed to find it mentioned in the past editions of the

2664:

Roberson that is listed in the bibliography as The Eastern Christian Churches; A Brief Survey, 6th Edition (1999). A brief biography of this particular author is included on the website of the the CNEWA (Catholic Near East Welfare Association), which is on the web at

1166:

at least part of the "Church of God"? Names can be misleading and tell only part of the story. This article is called "Roman Catholic" in order to distinguish it from other groups which call themselves "Catholic" (as well as "catholic"), and also because many people

843:

The "Eastern Orthodox Church" wiki article is about the Orthodox Churches not in communion with Rome. The article on the "Roman Catholic Church" is about the Roman Catholic Church, which the Eastern Catholics are not apart of. They are apart of the Catholic Church.

1627:

I am a Catholic priest, and I believe neither are we a cult nor do we deviate from Scripture. If you would like to learn further on why I say this, any Catholic bookstore can point you to any number of books which discuss the relationship of Scripture within the

3159:

have been written by a certain man from Palermo who only a few weeks ago has been ordained as a priest of the Orthodox Church of Greece. His version is that the Roman Catholic Church came into existence in 1054. Should we change this article to fit his ideas?

1182:

important because Knowledge (XXG) is an encyclopedia that if it wants to be a credible source should get its p's and q's correct. Allowing Catholic teachings, history and theology under an all-inclusive Roman Catholic umbrella is understandable but very sloppy.

684:

I am not sure you are wrong. While liberation theology needs its own page, as it is a complex subject, it certainly is one point of view within Catholic Theology. And it certainly is an issue within the Church if you include it among other points of view.~

1724:

God on earth. regardless of what the catholic church says. To believe that is completely against the second commandment of making any likeness of God (Exodus 20:4) and it deviates from biblical truth in which case the catholic church is a cult. (unsigned

1299:

It still seems to me that, on the evidence I've seen, both are acceptable names, not just a shorthand. Yes, the Church headed by the Pope calls itself the "Holy Catholic Church"; however, when the other billion Christians in the world say "we believe in

932:- Is the Anglican - Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC) understood to speak for Eastern Catholics, or not? Similarly, the "Joint international commission for the theological dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church"? 419:

If the Church wants to boost church attendence, increase the number of preists, and reduce crtisism, than they need to get of the "oh so holy" butts and do somthing about this dang sex abuse crisis!!!!! Let them marry! Change some rules! Anything to help

371:

the Church - like most of the criticism sections in this article, it contains only the vaguest criticisms and a vast amount of defence of the church; and it is a sub-section of the Criticism section, so I don't think it's necessarily NPOV for it to exist

290:

Do we have an authoritative and exhaustive listing of every church in the world, without any possible omissions, that can back up the statement that the RCC is the only church in the world to administer seven sacraments? If not, then the statement is not

2729:

that he is Exarch of the Byzantine-Rite jurisdiction, as well as Bishop of the Latin-Rite diocese. But the Byzantine jurisdiction does exist, and has its Exarch. On the contrary, no Georgian-Rite jurisdiction ever existed, under any hierarch whatever.

1544:

Further, there is a theological difference between the two terms. Subsits is a theological and phil category, so is always used in official translations. The Church of God is always one, but subsits only fully in the Catholic church according to Lumen

1589:

I am a member of the ordained Protestant clergy; I in no way feel that the Roman Catholic Church is a cult. In so many ways, they are far more faithful than Protestants. We all have much to learn from each other, and we desperately need one another.

2600:

listed as a 'Sui Juris' Church, while at the same time being officially part of the Ruthenian Rite. To not acknowledge this exception in the listing of the churches is excluding relevant information. Yes, it appears as part of the same church in the

2514:

states that, until the end of the nineteenth century (when some of them, including some priests, joined the Armenian Rite) all Georgian Catholics were of Latin Rite, and only in 1905 did some, presumably very few, begin to use the Byzantine liturgy.

1457:

Textual truths like those in the above proposition are much more critical to encyclopedic claims in comparison to competing advocacies. The breakdown above inherently makes known all competing claims, and imposes no polemical titles on any of them

1084:

heretics than the people Augustine wrote about. In the eyes of the people Augustine wrote about, it was not they, but Catholics like Augustine, who had the wrong beliefs. In what way has the current situation changed from that in Augustine's time?

2915:

alternative. It is also interesting to note that the most insistent person in the respect says he is not a Catholic and that he does not belong to any mainstream Christian Church. What are we to infer here? An infallible source of truth?

1196:

appointed from the Vatican as well. I can live with Roman Catholic being used, it's not that big a deal, but it's (unintentionally) disrespectful and marginalizing to the rest of the Catholic Church, Vatican website and all notwithstanding.

1079:

the current situation that in informal circumstances people usually understand by the term "Catholic" (unless specified in some way) "Roman Catholic". This is true even of people who are not Roman Catholics, people of today who are no more

2426:

lists (on page 1111 of its pages 1105-1137 geographical summary) one for Greek-Melkite Canadians, one for Slovak Canadians, and one for Ukrainian Canadians. And the United States Byzantine Churches, according to the same source, are four.

796:

The second paragraph begins "The choice of the phrase "Roman Catholic Church" should not be interpreted as opposition to the use, for this Church, of the simpler term "Catholic Church", which its members prefer". In fact, I think it

1866:

Therefore, it needs to be something purely factual and neutrally-presented. Phrases like "united in the profession of the one Christian faith" aren't really appropriate in the first paragraph, even if they are in a quote.

196:

If the South won the US Civil War, and we were writing an article about the subsequent history of the Union, it would defy reason to entertain complaints by the Confederates that our article made no mention of the Rebellion.

2651:

may not - indeed, does not - explain the reasons behind the setting up of a particular jurisdiction, but it does indicate how, in the view of the Holy See, that jurisdiction fits into the over-all structure of the Church.

2578:

Byzantine Rite. I thought that was evident from my post, but I apologize if this was in some way unclear. I was not aware there were two congregations, I only knew of one, but I have since confirmed that there were two.

2227:

unfortunately, while I have been involved with it it has seen almost as much editing which has moved it away from good article status (particularly regarding the neutral point of view issue) as has moved it towards it.

1397:

Indeed; because "catholic" means "universal", the "Catholic Church" is the Universal Church. But it it is only a point of view, held by about half of the world's Christians, that the Church headed by the Roman Pontiff

2566:

some consider to be Particular Churches, it would be appropriate to note these after the end of the official list; but you're not making any friends by keeping reverting without proper explanation of your sources.

2621:

says: "Out of from 30,000 to 35,000 Georgian Catholics, about 8000 follow the Armenian Rite, the remainder having adopted the Latin Rite. The only Catholic Georgian organization in existence is at Constantinople."

2291:

is a corpus of traditions which has arisen among certain people distinct by culture and hisory. There are six principal rites or traditions, each having arisen from a center of culture, education, and worship. A

444:

Hey, if people can't keep their genitals in their pants, they are always welcome to leave the priesthood. Priesthood is about total and complete service to the world. It's not that different from budhist monks.

1016:

I have been asked to express here my thoughts on the terminology question. My thoughts have in fact already been expressed somewhere else on this extremely long page. In short, I think the title should remain

3147:

In relation to this article I enclose the Latin version of Knowledge (XXG) which looks as though it is talking about a different institution. There should at least be internal consistency in Knowledge (XXG):

770:

This sentence is indisputably important for clarification/comprehensiveness, but does it have to be the second sentence of the entire article? I think we lose much by introducing this degree of detail in the

2549:

remains just as "authoritative" as before. It is difficult to think of anything more authoritative on internal matters of the Catholic Church than a publication compiled by a department of the Roman Curia.

1171:

as the Roman Catholic Church and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I can't believe this name thing is still an issue. Let it go, sisters and brothers! There are more important battles to fight!

273:

This is not universal belief, as many churches recognize fewer sacraments and others do not recognize any sacraments whatsoever. It is POV to suggest that the RCC view of the sacraments is the correct one.

2541:, was declared the only "official" publication of the Holy See (giving the word "official" a more restricted sense), and the description "official publication" ceased to be placed on the title page of the 1493:

Njesson, you're probably right that it prejudges the issues, besides being confusing for many lay individuals (no pun intended), or even misleading (for those in a non-receptive or non-critical frame of

909:

Now, I'm not deeply wedded to the term 'Roman Catholic'; I can see it has problems. However, I do believe that the term 'Catholic' is unacceptable in this context, for the same reason that the church

588:

To call it "civil rights" might be the best way to make it intelligible to a contemporary reader. All non-members of the Church of England were under various civil disabilities, generally called the

367:

The Islam comparison isn't really valid - the article is about the Roman Catholic Church, the organisation, not about a religion per se. The Anti-Semitism section certainly isn't in breach of NPOV

1885:

believers united in the profession of a single Christian faith and the participation in a single sacramental system under the government of the Bishop of Rome." This is what Bellarmine meant.

1096:

evidence of this. But is that an opinion worthy of the prominence it is given? Just because it is true that an opinion has been expressed, does not make that opinion encyclopedically relevant.

728:

If you added a parish life section that would be nice. It would be hard to make it general and NPoV. I think there are a lot of difficult terms in this article, but it really can't be helped.

377:"it's wrong to have a section on (N) when (M) doesn't have a section" - it's either justified for topic N to have a section or it isn't; if topic M should have one too then you can write one. 307:

I suspect that other statements could be included in the above list, but I believe these are sufficient to justify removing the statement as POV, and accordingly, I have made the removal. --

1218:

grant solely to this particular Church; and 'Romish', meaning 'headed by the Bishop of Rome'. I don't think its history suggests that it was meant to refer to only one part of that Church.

1896:

that it presents an almost entirely 'internal' view of the Church (i.e. the Catholic Church as it would wish to be seen) as opposed to a view gained from observation and unbiased reporting.

935:- When Pope Pius IX spoke of the "holy, catholic, apostolic and Roman church" in the First Vatican Council, was he understood to refer to Eastern Catholics, or only those of the Latin Rite? 1454:

Church, over which the Bishop of Rome is the Supreme Pontiff, subsisting in and consisting of all particular churches with local ordinaries in full communion with the Pope. This article.

1808:, except in being a human being and thus being made in God's image and likeness, we didn't make him: God did. As successor of Saint Peter, he is Christ's Vicar, not God's likeness (cf. 579:

Understandable. "Intense" was merely my attempt to be more NPOV than a predecessor's "relentless". As for the latter, your comments seem sound. Thanks for your work on this article --

793:" - at least when placed in the Terminology section, which can be assumed to be expressing the opinion of the encyclopedia, not describing opinions of the body the article is about. 357:

make it worthwhile to merge some or all of the text of the subsection into the article to which the reader is referred. Mention of the question and the reference could then remain.

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in relation to Georgia. The 1994 edition did in fact inform of a change with regard to Georgia, but not for Byzantine Catholics. The Apostolic Administration of the Caucasus

1450:

this official claim and if my understanding is correct. I very much apologize regarding my comparative ignorance regarding Anglicanism.) 3. See Roman/Latin Rite Catholicism

2526:

another jurisdiction. The Eparchy of Križevci itself is fully part of the ecclesiastical province of Zagreb. An apostolic exarchate, not being a diocese/eparchy, cannot be

2222:

Referencing. Much of the article is unreferenced; where it is referenced, it is almost exclusively from sources internal to the Church, rather than from impartial reporting.

342:

already an article on the relationship of Catholics with Judaism, there is no reason why all of the information in this section cannot be moved there. to have a section in a

985:

My proposal at present is simply to remove everything but the first paragraph of this section, leaving that as it is. It would probably be worth adding something about the

1758:

Second Vatican Council document? It is doubtless due to my ignorance that I fail to understand what is wanted. Someone wiser and more experienced can doubtless explain.

231:

I think the link with protestantism should come out when talking abouth the history of the Catholic Church, as well as about its relationship with other religious groups.--

178:

Nowhere in this whole article was the word Protestant or reformation used. Why the mention of Eastern Orthodox but not protestants. I put a brief mention of Protestants.

2553:"This will presumably be addressed at some point in the future and the status of all three will hopefully be defined." Yes, indeed. But not by Anonymous User nor by me. 2304:

This section should be expanded to include the jurisdictions that are officially listed as belonging to another rite, but in reality were created for different reasons.

1933:

This isn't entirely relevant to this article; however, if you'd like to provide some prominent exponents of this viewpoint, we can probably add something in 'Criticisms'.

1061:

why the article should NOT use "Catholic" undisambiguated, if to do so implies, as Augustine says it does, self-professed heresy on the part of all other Christian groups.

705:

There is also very little about parish life or the daily practices that most Catholics identify with their faith. Any thoughts on this approach to improving the article?

895:(most of whom would identify themselves as 'Catholic)? The problem here is that 'Catholic Church' is not a term on which everyone agrees a meaning. Knowledge (XXG)'s 569:

be rights - the people in question were regarded as having no such rights at the time, nor is there any impartial measure of what rights people should be entitled to.

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That's fine; however, as an encyclopedia, we can't take account of the views of individual editors; only of information we can source. Can anyone provide any

388:

alone." Are allegations of anti-Semitism so much more important than any other accusation whatever that has ever been made against the Roman Catholic Church?

2078:

I archived about 2/3 of the talk. It's still at about 30K, but I tried not to archive any recent discussions. If I did (on accident), please move it back. --

2117:

The "Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh", as it was described on the page of that name, was not the Metropolitan Archeparchy, but what is

2239:

The section "Particular Churches within the single Catholic church" is repeated. I deleted it, but was accused of vandalism and it was replaced. --Davrg

989:

of "Catholic" to refer to this church; but I think it's probably best to let this be built up from scratch, rather than keep any of the current content.

923:

While we're here, there are some issues I'm not particularly clear on myself, so here's something which an Eastern Catholic can hopefully clarify for me:

811:

the Eastern Churches in union with the Roman Catholic Church is dealt with below." I just wanted to check here first - does anyone have a reason why it

479:

I agree, I think that we are moving toward POV. While like all, I am horrified by the abuse crisis, I would suggest it has nothing to do with celibacy.

2850:"The Roman Catholic Church, (also known as the Catholic Church), is the ancient Christian Church led by the Bishop of Rome (commonly called the Pope)." 2688:

comes from the same source as the one listed for this article, I'm unsure why the Macedonian Church is reckoned as a separate particular church in the

2617:

Georgian Catholic Exarch was "exterminated" by the Soviets in the 1930s, he cannot have been of Byzantine Rite. Perhaps he was of Armenian Rite. The

297:

If the RCC is the only church to administer all seven sacraments, then anyone administering seven sacraments but not a part of the RCC is not a church.

618:

pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

1864:"If the subject is amenable to definition, the first sentence should give a concise, conceptually sound definition that puts the article in context." 146:

Um. Only if said absolute monarchy is being referred to in a Criticism section. I think you've probably mistaken the context of the above debate.

1997:

I don't expect the anti-Catholics to bother, but if they have an open mind, an excellent resource on this Dave Hunt/Woman/Beast stuff is found at

1927: 303:

If the RCC is the only one to administer seven sacraments, and there are exactly seven sacraments, then anyone not administering them all is wrong.

1502:

is probably worthy of further discussion. There are resources on the net (and in print) explaining it. Thanks for your worthwhile contribution! --

160:

It is the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (not the Code of Canon Law) that Dave wants. He can read for himself an English translation at

2390:

My understanding is that the Georgian Church was listed in the Annuario Pontificio up until around 1994, but was removed as of the 1995 edition.

2708:

Yes, some Eastern Catholic Churches are at present without a hierarch, and indeed without any secure knowledge whatever of their faithful: the

2054:

It's at 144K as I write this. I haven't been involved in much of the discussion, so I don't want to move any sections that may need to stay. --

1301: 1121: 2860:..."? Other denominations make similar claims (the Orthodox, for instance). Perhaps we should try and make it a bit more NPOV. Thoughts? 131:(citing my sources, of course) without having to say that a lot of people don't like blue. Many people have favorite colors other than blue. 2766:

I don't think so; and I don't really think that article should exist. It sounds like it is, or at least is in grave danger of becoming, a '

2422:

And there is a Czech Byzantine Church, and a Hungarian Byzantine Church. There are no less than three Canadian Byzantine Churches: the 2005

3103:

I really don't think you can claim this as an objective fact, as there are no external historical accounts of the founding of the Church.--

2174: 2167: 2756:", should not the whole of the "Criticisms and controversies" section here be merged into that article, and a link to it be placed here? 2434:

No doubt, there are marginal cases, and different people would make different classifications. Some might dispute the correctness of the

3079:

so in the last year of his life, most experts now believe that Jesus died nearer 30 than 33AD (due to miscalculation of his birth date).

1853:

I've just returned the whole first paragraph to something more like what we had about a month ago. Editors need to be familiar with the

1411:

say it in the Nicene Creed - is to take one position on this issue. I don't think that's an acceptable thing for an encyclopedia to do.

2506:

The source that Anonymous User has helpfully pointed me to, the 1974 publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Eastern Churches,

2696:

My intent here is not to "win friends" but really to enhance the article in this particular area based on all available information.

1924:

Don't let this woman riding a beast fool you, she is the only entity that fullfills endtime prophecy on all accounts to the limit.

807:

heretics because they accept colloquial use of "Catholic" to mean "Roman Catholic"! This seems inappropriate for an encyclopedia.

402:

Cooldoug111, maybe you should talk about this article being NPOV instead of tagging it. Antisemitism is a retty blanket statement.

3136:), who also managed to delete the entire contents of the talk page. I've reverted the change, and am now adding his comment back. 2457:

was set up at the very end of the previous year, on 30 December 1993, with headquarters in Tbilisi, Georgia. But neither the 1994

694:

visitor or observer of Catholic practices would see and hear. Then, as appropriate, explain the beliefs related to the practice.

2753: 2191:

Golly, do you think it is the same vandal who took the word "Roman" off the 1994 Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church (CRCC)?

900:

most relevant here, is that the term needs to be unambiguous. Putting articles under disputed titles is not normally acceptable.

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is nothing "common" about this title at all. And anyway, where is there any mention in the New Testament of "Patriarchates"?

2065:

the change, which promptly received objections. This talk page is useless as it is; let's archive and see if it gets better.

2596:

significant development for the church in the Czech Republic and as such should be included if there are legitimate sources.

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Yes - and that article also identifies most of the problems with using the term "Catholic Church" in a general encyclopedia.

1125:

wishes) is inadequate proof that the Catholic - Roman Catholic conjunction is NPOV if used as anything other than shorthand.

1110:

direction can be found for a particular situation, so can one that is biased in the other; so it is better to use neither.)

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I've removed this as POV. We can state that the RCC administers seven sacraments. However, when we say that the RCC is the

1713: 1632: 1622: 1569: 96:

Vatican City State. There is no provision for deposing a Pope, and it has been many centuries since any Pope has resigned.

2643:, which in any case is far more authoritative on questions of the contemporary structure of the Catholic Church than the 1843:

the organisation is headed by the Pope; but I can see that that probably won't be satisfactory to members of the Church.

2530:

an ecclesiastical province; but it must link with some other Catholic jurisdiction, though without being subject to it.

1901:

I also balked a little at "Since the description "head of the Church" is seen as applicable in the strict sense only to

1603:

The false claim that any aspect of Roman Catholic worship involves worshipping false gods/idols is already mentioned at

944:

I ask because these same questions seem to keep coming up, and answers would help me get the issue straight in my head.

3016:

Any of these will work, I think. Whatever the community wants to do is fine with me...I just wanted to point it out.

1022:

mixture of the two terms, with tolerance on the part of those who prefer one expression for the preference of others.

2518:

The Apostolic Exarchate for (all) Byzantine-Rite Catholics resident in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia does

2881:

I understand; but the wording "is the" is rather absolute, or at least reads that way to me (a non-Roman Catholic).

2683:

Of particular interest to this discussion is a PDF file of Eastern Catholic Church Statistics that is from the 2005

2042:

Selling advertising space to a Catholic online dating firm on your anti-Catholic polemic website strikes me as odd.

1702:

thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father in secret shall reward thee openly."

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I've thought about this for a while, but I don't think that I can in all conscience leave this article listed as a

347:

apropriate, as it would be misleading. There is no reason why this same practice should not occur in this article.

38: 2353:"As counter-intuitive as it may seem, the threshold for inclusion in Knowledge (XXG) is verifiability, not truth." 2207: 1162:

orthodox? There are many "Church of God" groups out there; arent't Methodists, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, etc.,

829:

I agree with your thinking but would need to see your final edits before granting my own personal "imprimatur".

2215:

repetition in this article of a great deal of information general to all Christian groups is an example of this.

2173:

I am afraid to report that there is a currently a campaign underway at the history counterpart of this article,

2604:

listing, but there is an exceptional status given to the church in the United States for historical reasons.

2419:

Of course there is a Czech Church, and a Hungarian Church – and an Irish Church, and a Polish Church, and ...

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I think it's meant to be a category for institutions founded in 33 AD. In my view, it's ripe for deletion.

1006:

to be called simply "Catholics", but that this article will use the "Roman" designation to avoid confusion.

295:

Any community calling itself a church that administers seven sacraments, but is not the RCC, is not a church.

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It is an objective fact that the Roman catholic Church was founded in 33 A.D. It has existed since then.

2035:

Lastly, the idea that the Catholic Church was the same time? Wouldn't the presence of Satan qualify it as

1977:

Lastly, the idea that the Catholic Church was founded by a pagan Roman Emperor is an absolute fallacy see

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I don't know if this helps or not, but according to an EWTN site, there is a Czech and Hungarian Church.

1640:

Aidan Work's question amounts to a restatement of the classic, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

609:

The term "leader of Christendom" refers to the Catholic belief, not a temporal reality. Here is what the

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supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403

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I think the current second paragraph of the Terminology section, and associated quote, are distinctly "

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The Roman Catholic Church is the only Christian church in the world to administer all seven sacraments.

2247:

and get an outside point of view on the doctrines of the Church to make this a "good" article again.

1725: 3003: 2408: 2300:) ecclesial body. (CCOC 27, 28) Please maintain this distinction throughout the text of the article. 970: 164:. The canons on appointment of bishops are 180-189. The answer to Dave's question is in canon 181. 47: 17: 2395:

There was also a Georgian Rite Catholic Church in Constantinople, which has I believe since closed.

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The "defunct Western Rites" were liturgical rites, not autonomous (sui iuris) particular Churches.

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article should be as acceptable to a Muslim or an atheist as to a fervent Catholic believer. The

1768:

I fixed it by promoting some links used for the article to references. THis was a silly exercise.

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Interesting link to "How did the Catholic Church get her name" from the Global Catholic Network;

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policy. If you wish to argue, please do so based on someone's arguments, not on who they are.

2774:

might be reasonable; I just don't think that 'criticisms' is particularly helpful subdivision.

2296:

on the other hand, is a distinct group of the Christian faithful organized into an autonomous (

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Catholic teaching (something I'm always looking out for), but it wouldn't assert it either.

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secular viewpoint with a more widely understandable term, as well as religious accuracy? --

816: 790: 132: 2941: 2852:-- This seems pretty POV to me. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say something like it 2446:

Perhaps the 2006 edition, due out in a month or so, will have a different classification.

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American revolution, unless British history were a significant part of the discussion. MS

121:

Removing it it is then! If people have issues, they can reinstate it WITH some criticism.

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I made the following comment (cf. history). It certainly does NOT represent my thinking.

1528:

Because the official english translation is "subsists in" not "concrete realization"...

1407:

all Christian Churches', which is roughly what most Protestants mean by the phrase when

961:) as the present Catholic Church then you must define it as the same CATHOLIC Church. 958: 1126: 665: 644: 181: 3163: 3140: 3115: 3097: 3083: 3073: 3064: 3054: 3020: 3006: 2993: 2976: 2952: 2907: 2885: 2875: 2864: 2832: 2819: 2778: 2760: 2736: 2702: 2658: 2610: 2570: 2559: 2496: 2472: 2375: 2352: 2342: 2271: 2195: 2185: 2159: 2097: 2082: 2069: 2058: 2004: 1954: 1937: 1909: 1889: 1875: 1847: 1836: 1816: 1795: 1774: 1762: 1752: 1737: 1684: 1662: 1644: 1611: 1594: 1580: 1549: 1523: 1506: 1474: 1419: 1349: 1313: 1294: 1284: 1254: 1222: 1200: 1186: 1176: 1149: 1129: 1114: 1089: 1069: 1054: 1037: 1026: 1010: 993: 973: 948: 883: 833: 823: 779: 753: 734: 719: 709: 678: 668: 659: 647: 632: 596: 583: 573: 503: 483: 464: 435: 424: 406: 392: 381: 361: 351: 331: 322: 235: 218: 201: 184: 168: 150: 140: 125: 115: 105: 3152: 3137: 2904: 2872: 2721:

listing of Eastern-Rite Catholic Churches: describing is one thing, listing another.

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some point in the future and the status of all three will be hopefully be defined.

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is one overall Christian belief system, containing a large number of cults. No?

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I see what you mean, KHM03, and although the current wording certainly expresses

2628:

Catholics, says: "The number of Catholic Georgians is unknown, but it is small."

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reporting the most authoritative classification available, which is that of the

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Eastern Christianity is often termed "Orthodox"; aren't many Western Christians

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

3061: 3017: 2937: 2882: 2861: 2829: 2816: 2367:, we must stick to Lima's sourced and verifiable version until you can find a 2244: 1591: 1173: 1007: 830: 747:

Catechism of the Catholic Church numbers refer to the entries, not the years.

643:

Is liberation theology a subject which can be included somewhere on the page?

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to remove the word "Roman" from the entire article and rename the article to

1978: 1395:'The proper name for the universal Church is not the Roman Catholic Church.' 3160: 3070: 3051: 2999: 2990: 2757: 2733: 2655: 2556: 2469: 2339: 2156: 2036: 1886: 1813: 1759: 1749: 1577: 1520: 1146: 1086: 1051: 1023: 589: 389: 358: 165: 318:

In addition, the Eastern Orthodox Church also believes in seven sacraments.

1990:

get some of the names in order, but managed to get nothing else correct.

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I am grateful to the Anonymous user for directing me to the "about 1994"

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The only publication that the Holy See designates as "official" is the

2624:

In another part of the same article, the 1917 publication, speaking of

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seven sacraments, we then endorse the following statements as factual:

3050:

What on earth does Stijn Calle mean by "Category:33 establishments"?

327:

You could've just...removed it without adding this eyesore. :p -Alex

279:

That the RCC is the final arbiter of what are and are not sacraments.

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This is beyond the scope of this article, thanks for your opinion.

2409:

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

2014: 664:

i realized to my embarrassment sometiema after my cmments. sorry.

301:

Any church that does not administer all seven sacraments is wrong.

2987:

The Roman Catholic Church is the Church led by the Bishop of Rome

1994:

17:09, 8 December 2005, Feast of the Immaculate Conception (UTC)

1250:

wants to be used as a legitimate source it’s intellectually lazy.

2840:

Now, back to the point. Why use/or not use the term "Papists"?

2385:

Churches" Crisis Magazine, July-August 2005, by Kevin R. Yurkus.

2210:. I think it misses out on the criteria in the following ways: 2026: 1999:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp

1968: 288:

That no other church in the world administers seven sacraments.

210:

Of course, if it is deemed important, then just list a link to

2287:: According to the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches, a 1946:

I'm not sure that this particular 'posting' even qualifies as

25: 2261:

removal from a "good" status. I think it is silly, so I used

1470:

Someone put this in here don't know who but I edited it out.

969:

called "The Vatican"- The Holy See of the Catholic Church. -

2110:"I am curious as to the reasons for the changes you made to 1791:

the likeness of God on Earth, we didn't make him, God did.

2029:

See volume 1 for these earliest of Fathers. Contact me at

2020:

http://www.literatureclassics.com/ancientpaths/bibhist.html

1971:

See volume 1 for these earliest of Fathers. Contact me at

1962:

http://www.literatureclassics.com/ancientpaths/bibhist.html

1402:

that universal church. The other half believe either that

2966:

as Gentgeen suggested. I don't think that would actually

2796:

I believe that a discussion of this term should be held.

2046:

compatible with local 'pagan' beliefs.(Mark, Birmingham)

2503:

Church in the sense of an autonomous particular Church.

2752:

Since there exists a Knowledge (XXG) article entitled "

2665: 1576:

Thank God, not all Protestants believe such nonsense.

546:", and I just wanted to give a bit more justification. 2998:

Better yet, how about "The Roman Catholic Church is a

2114:...", someone who did not sign wrote on my Talk page. 1862:

has this to say on the first sentence of an article:

1002:

You might also mention that most/many Roman Catholics

819:

to leave the remainder of the Terminology section in?

1943:

For the real truth you could visit www.catholic.com.

959:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vii.viii.html

2112:

Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh

2106:

Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh

1787:

unsigned user (apologies to Lima), even if the Pope

2351:Knowledge (XXG)'s policies are very clear on this: 282:

belief, and must be noted as such to maintain NPOV.

2856:to be...or something like that, as opposed to "it 1871:actions are subject to the authority of Christ). 1743:This paragraph was inserted, unsigned, some days 1559: 840:"Roman Catholic Church" do not pertain to them. 698:with his Body, the Church in heaven and earth." 532:after three centuries of intense persecution and 255:(added 03:07, August 29, 2005 by 209.217.93.197) 891:Which seems clear... but what are, for example, 90:This needs some kind of criticism attached to it 524:, where their faith underwent a revival in the 1983:http://www.ancient-future.net/constantine.html 1344:http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb3.htm 1706:that makes them cult members because of it. 8: 2929:article, or push a particular point of view. 2903:. I don't see a problem with that wording. 2399:05:03, 5 January 2006 (UTC) Anonymous User 2371:source which backs up any altered version. 2828:, as you may not understand its meaning. 1979:http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/roman.htm 1928:Click Here For The Truth About Catholicism 1920:roman catholicism is a satanic pagan cult! 689:Theological and sociological perspectives 520:Catholics are a significant minority in 2443:(pages 1138-1141 of the 2005 edition). 1560:Isn't the Roman Catholic Church a cult? 715:Sounds excellent - good luck with it!-- 3002:Church led by the Bishop of Rome."? -- 1480:Concrete realization or "subsists in"? 1302:One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church 1122:One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church 702:the catechism can follow the link). 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2125:(cf. pages 1138 and 1141 of the 2005 499:"theories" about the why of celibacy 7: 2944:, and may violate Knowledge (XXG)'s 2940:arguments are usually regarded as a 2743:no listings or statistica mentioned. 2365:even if the revised list is accurate 2175:History of the Roman Catholic Church 2168:History of the Roman Catholic Church 1511:Why not return to the earlier text: 2201: 271:There are exactly seven sacraments. 24: 2647:or any similar publication. The 2137:: Pittsburgh of the Byzantines - 2754:Criticism of the Catholic Church 2478:of Eastern Catholic Churches. 1860:Guide to writing better articles 1513:has a concrete realization (the 611:Catechism of the Catholic Church 29: 2093:Archive link at top of page. -- 2050:Can this talk page be archived? 785:Older discussion on terminology 2985:How about omitting "ancient" ( 2179:History of the Catholic Church 1804:the likeness of God on Earth, 1565:idols'. What do you think? - ( 465:23:07, 25 September 2005 (UTC) 436:10:40, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 425:00:39, 22 September 2005 (UTC) 407:00:05, 21 September 2005 (UTC) 393:13:53, 21 September 2005 (UTC) 382:10:40, 21 September 2005 (UTC) 362:04:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC) 352:23:53, 20 September 2005 (UTC) 1: 2893:The Roman Catholic Church is 2824:Also, you may want to review 2280:Particular Rites and Churches 2252:07:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 2232:23:55, 26 December 2005 (UTC) 2196:07:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 2186:21:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC) 2160:07:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC) 2121:called the Ruthenian Rite or 2027:http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ 2005:00:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 1969:http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ 1910:13:47, 22 December 2005 (UTC) 1890:07:36, 20 December 2005 (UTC) 1876:22:27, 19 December 2005 (UTC) 1817:13:01, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 1796:07:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 1753:13:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 1738:13:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 1685:04:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 1663:02:30, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 1645:01:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 1623:15:55, 27 November 2005 (UTC) 1612:15:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC) 1595:02:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC) 1581:05:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC) 1570:03:17, 25 November 2005 (UTC) 1524:08:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC) 1507:06:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC) 1475:20:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC) 1420:18:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC) 1350:02:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC) 1314:02:14, 27 December 2005 (UTC) 1295:01:24, 27 December 2005 (UTC) 1285:00:16, 27 December 2005 (UTC) 1255:19:59, 26 December 2005 (UTC) 1223:22:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC) 1201:11:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC) 1187:13:23, 25 December 2005 (UTC) 1177:17:53, 14 November 2005 (UTC) 1150:17:35, 14 November 2005 (UTC) 1130:16:05, 14 November 2005 (UTC) 1115:14:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC) 1090:14:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC) 1070:11:28, 14 November 2005 (UTC) 1055:11:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC) 1038:10:16, 14 November 2005 (UTC) 1027:10:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC) 974:16:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC) 949:04:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC) 884:03:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC) 315:04:59, August 29, 2005 (UTC) 219:13:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 202:07:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC) 151:18:46, 11 November 2005 (UTC) 141:18:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC) 3164:05:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC) 3141:01:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC) 3116:23:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC) 3098:23:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC) 3084:19:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC) 3074:17:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC) 3065:13:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC) 3055:12:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC) 3021:11:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 3007:05:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 2994:05:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 2977:00:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 2953:00:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC) 2908:00:00, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 2886:23:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC) 2876:23:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC) 2865:23:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC) 2833:23:34, 22 January 2006 (UTC) 2820:23:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC) 2779:12:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 2761:05:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC) 2748:Criticisms and controversies 2737:09:20, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 2703:06:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC) 2098:01:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC) 2083:01:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC) 2070:01:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 2059:00:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 1955:00:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 1938:02:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 1848:01:06, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 1837:04:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC) 1775:17:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC) 1763:16:20, 1 December 2005 (UTC) 1633:17:08, 8 December 2005 (UTC) 1550:21:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC) 817:Neutral Point of View policy 780:01:10, 27 October 2005 (UTC) 754:12:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC) 735:22:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC) 720:21:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC) 710:20:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC) 679:14:59, 17 October 2005 (UTC) 669:14:45, 17 October 2005 (UTC) 660:02:10, 16 October 2005 (UTC) 648:22:53, 15 October 2005 (UTC) 484:20:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC) 323:17:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC) 169:14:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC) 2659:09:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC) 2611:02:09, 9 January 2006 (UTC) 2571:00:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC) 2560:09:04, 8 January 2006 (UTC) 2497:20:47, 7 January 2006 (UTC) 2473:15:03, 5 January 2006 (UTC) 2376:17:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC) 2343:05:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC) 2272:17:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC) 2243:Gosh, maybe we could go to 2141:: Parma, Passaic, Van Nuys. 1140:to be used, but what terms 633:17:15, 9 October 2005 (UTC) 597:19:27, 6 January 2006 (UTC) 584:01:31, 8 October 2005 (UTC) 574:15:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC) 536:repression of civil rights. 504:16:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC) 460:you make you should leave. 332:23:30, 3 January 2006 (UTC) 236:06:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC) 185:22:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC) 126:18:01, 11 August 2005 (UTC) 116:17:27, 11 August 2005 (UTC) 106:17:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC) 3179: 3122:Compare with Latin version 3046:Category:33 establishments 2917:- added by anonymous user 2901:led by the Bishop of Rome. 2807:"Fascist"? Please review 2619:1917 Catholic Encyclopedia 1827:Visible and spiritual head 871:Eastern Catholics are not 640:== Liberation theology == 1985:.[Micael- February 2006} 1714:03:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 1011:19:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC) 994:19:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC) 834:19:11, 23 July 2005 (UTC) 824:17:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC) 2897:ancient Christian Chruch 1489:23:20, 22 November 2005 337:Anti semitism (not NPOV) 518:I altered the section: 415:The Church needs Change 2637:Acta Apostolicae Sedis 2539:Acta Apostolicae Sedis 2329:that I have looked up. 2202:'Good Article' listing 1467:Catholics are for jews 1106:- C.F.W. Walther, 1884 1104:us to use this name. 1099:Here is another quote: 864:Eastern Catholics are 857:Eastern Catholics are 850:Eastern Catholics are 655:has it's own article. 538:to remove the words " 2891:Maybe changing it to 2645:Catholic Encyclopedia 2464:Roman Catholic Church 2436:Annuario Pontificio's 1855:Neutral Point of View 605:Leader of Christendom 262:church to administer 42:of past discussions. 3127:(This was posted by 2666:http://www.cnewa.org 2537:, forerunner of the 2355:Knowledge (XXG) may 1517:term is "subsistit") 815:compatible with the 18:Talk:Catholic Church 2946:No Personal Attacks 2933:effect on the page. 2727:Annuario Pontificio 2719:Annuario Pontificio 2710:Annuario Pontificio 2690:Annuario Pontificio 2685:Annuario Pontificio 2649:Annuario Pontificio 2641:Annuario Pontificio 2602:Annuario Pontificio 2593:Annuario Pontificio 2588:Annuario Pontificio 2547:Annuario Pontificio 2543:Annuario Pontificio 2459:Annuario Pontificio 2451:Annuario Pontificio 2441:Annuario Pontificio 2424:Annuario Pontificio 2327:Annuario Pontificio 2153:Apostolic Exarchate 2127:Annuario Pontificio 979:- Feb. 11, 2006.// 653:Liberation theology 214:under "see also". 3129:User:159.134.52.37 2535:Acta Sanctae Sedis 1731:(Added sig! /bow) 775:of the article. -- 111:I say remove it. 3135: 3038:User:85.43.58.100 2845:Opening paragraph 2800:User:85.43.58.100 2512:Oriente Cattolico 2508:Oriente Cattolico 2361:original research 2166:Campaign to move 2123:particular Church 1800:Even if the Pope 1726:USER: 68.8.204.49 1393:of that Church. 897:Naming Convention 174:HUGE POV problems 87: 86: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3170: 3131: 3110: 2545:. However, the 2151:Czech Republic: 1609:Antaeus Feldspar 1605:Anti-Catholicism 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3178: 3177: 3173: 3172: 3171: 3169: 3168: 3167: 3124: 3108: 3048: 3004:Aquarius Rising 2942:logical fallacy 2847: 2793: 2750: 2705:Anonymous User 2613:Anonymous User 2499:Anonymous User 2282: 2204: 2171: 2108: 2052: 1922: 1829: 1721: 1562: 1482: 1464: 893:Anglo-Catholics 873:Roman Catholics 787: 773:second sentence 761: 745: 691: 607: 594:Smerdis of Tlön 544:of civil rights 516: 447:209.124.115.101 427:The Republican 417: 400: 339: 248: 176: 92: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3176: 3174: 3123: 3120: 3119: 3118: 3091: 3090: 3089: 3088: 3087: 3086: 3047: 3044: 3043: 3042: 3031: 3025: 3014: 3013: 3012: 3011: 3010: 3009: 2980: 2979: 2958: 2957: 2956: 2955: 2936:Incidentally, 2934: 2930: 2923: 2922: 2911: 2910: 2879: 2878: 2846: 2843: 2842: 2841: 2836: 2835: 2822: 2792: 2789: 2788: 2787: 2782: 2781: 2749: 2746: 2745: 2744: 2580: 2579: 2574: 2573: 2455:for the Latins 2418: 2416: 2415: 2414: 2413: 2412: 2411: 2397: 2396: 2392: 2391: 2387: 2386: 2381: 2380: 2379: 2378: 2363:. Therefore, 2346: 2345: 2336: 2335: 2331: 2330: 2321: 2320: 2303: 2281: 2278: 2277: 2276: 2275: 2274: 2255: 2254: 2224: 2223: 2220: 2216: 2203: 2200: 2199: 2198: 2170: 2164: 2163: 2162: 2149: 2142: 2107: 2104: 2103: 2102: 2101: 2100: 2088: 2087: 2086: 2085: 2073: 2072: 2051: 2048: 2009:Can a cult be 1988: 1941: 1940: 1921: 1918: 1913: 1912: 1898: 1897: 1851: 1850: 1828: 1825: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1820: 1819: 1806:which he isn't 1778: 1777: 1720: 1717: 1711:Loki Laufeyson 1696: 1694: 1693: 1692: 1691: 1690: 1689: 1688: 1687: 1670: 1669: 1668: 1667: 1666: 1665: 1650: 1649: 1648: 1647: 1615: 1614: 1600: 1599: 1598: 1597: 1584: 1583: 1561: 1558: 1557: 1556: 1555: 1554: 1553: 1552: 1537: 1536: 1535: 1534: 1533: 1532: 1481: 1478: 1469: 1463: 1460: 1442: 1439: 1437: 1436: 1435: 1434: 1433: 1432: 1431: 1430: 1429: 1428: 1427: 1426: 1425: 1424: 1423: 1422: 1412: 1390: 1389: 1388: 1365: 1364: 1363: 1362: 1361: 1360: 1359: 1358: 1357: 1356: 1355: 1354: 1353: 1352: 1327: 1326: 1325: 1324: 1323: 1322: 1321: 1320: 1319: 1318: 1317: 1316: 1277: 1273: 1262: 1261: 1260: 1259: 1258: 1257: 1242: 1241: 1240: 1239: 1238: 1237: 1228: 1227: 1226: 1225: 1215: 1204: 1203: 1193: 1192: 1191: 1190: 1189: 1153: 1152: 1120: 1118: 1117: 1107: 1100: 1097: 1082:self-professed 1073: 1072: 1062: 1041: 1040: 1014: 1013: 999: 998: 997: 996: 954: 953: 952: 951: 939: 938: 937: 936: 933: 927: 926: 925: 924: 918: 917: 916: 915: 904: 903: 902: 901: 878: 847:To sum it up: 837: 836: 786: 783: 768: 767: 760: 757: 744: 743:CCC references 741: 740: 739: 738: 737: 723: 722: 690: 687: 682: 681: 626: 625: 620: 619: 606: 603: 602: 601: 600: 599: 515: 512: 511: 510: 509: 508: 507: 506: 491: 490: 489: 488: 487: 486: 472: 471: 470: 469: 468: 467: 452: 451: 450: 449: 439: 438: 422:The Republican 416: 413: 411: 399: 396: 385: 384: 338: 335: 305: 304: 298: 292: 285: 284: 283: 247: 244: 243: 242: 241: 240: 239: 238: 224: 223: 222: 221: 205: 204: 190: 175: 172: 154: 153: 119: 118: 91: 88: 85: 84: 79: 74: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3175: 3166: 3165: 3162: 3156: 3154: 3149: 3145: 3144: 3142: 3139: 3134: 3130: 3121: 3117: 3114: 3111: 3106: 3102: 3101: 3100: 3099: 3096: 3085: 3082: 3077: 3076: 3075: 3072: 3068: 3067: 3066: 3063: 3059: 3058: 3057: 3056: 3053: 3045: 3041: 3039: 3032: 3028: 3027: 3026: 3023: 3022: 3019: 3008: 3005: 3001: 2997: 2996: 2995: 2992: 2988: 2984: 2983: 2982: 2981: 2978: 2975: 2973: 2969: 2964: 2960: 2959: 2954: 2951: 2947: 2943: 2939: 2935: 2931: 2927: 2926: 2925: 2924: 2921: 2920: 2913: 2912: 2909: 2906: 2902: 2900: 2896: 2890: 2889: 2888: 2887: 2884: 2877: 2874: 2869: 2868: 2867: 2866: 2863: 2859: 2855: 2851: 2844: 2838: 2837: 2834: 2831: 2827: 2823: 2821: 2818: 2814: 2810: 2806: 2805: 2804: 2803: 2801: 2790: 2784: 2783: 2780: 2777: 2773: 2769: 2765: 2764: 2763: 2762: 2759: 2755: 2747: 2741: 2740: 2739: 2738: 2735: 2731: 2728: 2722: 2720: 2714: 2711: 2706: 2704: 2701: 2697: 2694: 2691: 2686: 2681: 2677: 2673: 2669: 2667: 2661: 2660: 2657: 2653: 2650: 2646: 2642: 2638: 2633: 2629: 2627: 2623: 2620: 2614: 2612: 2609: 2608:65.41.245.189 2605: 2603: 2597: 2594: 2589: 2584: 2576: 2575: 2572: 2569: 2564: 2563: 2562: 2561: 2558: 2554: 2551: 2548: 2544: 2540: 2536: 2531: 2529: 2525: 2521: 2516: 2513: 2509: 2504: 2500: 2498: 2495: 2494:71.48.105.177 2491: 2487: 2483: 2479: 2475: 2474: 2471: 2467: 2465: 2460: 2456: 2452: 2447: 2444: 2442: 2437: 2432: 2428: 2425: 2420: 2410: 2406: 2405: 2404: 2403: 2402: 2401: 2400: 2394: 2393: 2389: 2388: 2383: 2382: 2377: 2374: 2370: 2366: 2362: 2358: 2354: 2350: 2349: 2348: 2347: 2344: 2341: 2338: 2337: 2333: 2332: 2328: 2323: 2322: 2317: 2316: 2315: 2313: 2309: 2305: 2301: 2299: 2295: 2290: 2286: 2279: 2273: 2270: 2268: 2264: 2259: 2258: 2257: 2256: 2253: 2250: 2246: 2242: 2241: 2240: 2237: 2234: 2233: 2230: 2221: 2217: 2213: 2212: 2211: 2209: 2197: 2194: 2190: 2189: 2188: 2187: 2184: 2180: 2176: 2169: 2165: 2161: 2158: 2154: 2150: 2147: 2143: 2140: 2136: 2132: 2131: 2130: 2128: 2124: 2120: 2115: 2113: 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1101: 1098: 1094: 1093: 1092: 1091: 1088: 1083: 1078: 1071: 1068: 1063: 1059: 1058: 1057: 1056: 1053: 1049: 1045: 1039: 1036: 1031: 1030: 1029: 1028: 1025: 1020: 1012: 1009: 1005: 1001: 1000: 995: 992: 988: 984: 983: 982: 981: 980: 978: 975: 972: 966: 962: 960: 950: 947: 943: 942: 941: 940: 934: 931: 930: 929: 928: 922: 921: 920: 919: 912: 908: 907: 906: 905: 898: 894: 890: 889: 888: 887: 886: 885: 882: 881:Robertsussell 876: 874: 869: 867: 862: 860: 855: 853: 848: 845: 841: 835: 832: 828: 827: 826: 825: 822: 818: 814: 808: 805: 800: 794: 792: 791:Point of View 784: 782: 781: 778: 774: 766: 763: 762: 758: 756: 755: 752: 750: 742: 736: 733: 731: 727: 726: 725: 724: 721: 718: 714: 713: 712: 711: 708: 703: 699: 695: 688: 686: 680: 677: 673: 672: 671: 670: 667: 662: 661: 658: 654: 650: 649: 646: 641: 639: 635: 634: 631: 622: 621: 616: 615: 614: 612: 604: 598: 595: 591: 587: 586: 585: 582: 578: 577: 576: 575: 572: 568: 563: 559: 554: 552: 547: 545: 541: 537: 535: 531: 527: 523: 513: 505: 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