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Empire split during the same period). Although
Persian historians commonly use and understand the term "Western" within this context to refer to the Roman Empire as a whole, East and West, this is not necessarily the way the general public would understand the term. In fact, because the article really doesn't go into the world context of the time the average reader might not even be aware that this refers to any part of the Roman Empire. Euphamisms like "Western" which can be so easily misunderstood in a context like this should be avoided in favor of more literal terms like "Roman". A ntv apparently seems to suggest that the distinction between "Roman" and "Byzantine" might be confusing to laymen so perhaps using "Roman/Byzantine" addresses that concern. I'll change accordingly.
1402:"As far as you know" is not the basis on which citing is done; it is not as if you are in a position to count all the Christians in Iran. The paper cited (which I've actually read, unlike you) appears, again, to be serious work, and not simply to take the claims of missionaries at face value. Likewise it is not sufficient for you to claim something is "utter nonsense"; I have cited Der Spiegel on the subject of apostacy, and would have no difficulty in producing more cites. What you should do is produce cites that support your position (note that given the extensive state censorship and repression, a source from Iran that says everything is fine cannot be trusted); what you are doing is working up to yet another block for edit warring.
1645:"insisting that Nadarkhani has a history of committing violent crimes ..." - it does not seem necessary to so expand upon the regime's denials (especially not by direct cut and paste from the source). The regime is not one we would typically regard as a reliable source on the probity of its own actions, and hence it is not helpful to give undue weight to their self-justification. A simple statement that they have denied the claims would suffice. (The source added is useful for this purpose and should be retained.)
1432:"extra-judicial" methods for apostasy cases, although they denied everything. If issue is to be addressed in article, then everything should be included: (1) No laws, (2) No religious basis, (3) Official denials, (4) "According to Afshari...". I'm sure you can find plenty of citations more but Knowledge (XXG) is not a news aggregator, you can find the same for flat Earth or "no internet in Iran". Be a little bit more constructive next time, happy new year and greetings from Tehran. --
652:(please read it: the present chaldean do not came from Sulaqua split). It is anyway the history of the Church of the East, it does not exists a separate history of the Christianity in Iran. Anyway the areas of the present Iran where Christians lived in the 17th-19th centuries was the area West to Lake Urmia: the area of Urmia was under the Patriarchate of Alqosh, the area of Khosrowa unde the Patriarcate of Qochanis, but the influeneces changed a lot.
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538:. Unfortunately, I am basically a drive-by-reader. I have no information on Christianity in Iran and I really can't help with many of the sources except via Googling. It seems many of the sources that would be needed to substantiate the "current status" content are not in English. Can someone who is familiar with Iran or with Christianity in Iran please help to clean up this article?
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1653:"Hence the statistics of Iranian Christians omit an unknown number of secret conversions." Now, I hear the cry of synthesis coming, but this does follow fairly obviously from the fact that apostates can face oppression and death. It could be altered to "Hence, reliable statistics on the number of Iranian Christians are not available.", cited to
1613:"it has been reported in the Western press" is pure weasel wording because the editor doesn't like what the source said. Der Spiegel didn't say that it has been reported in the Western press that apostates can face the death penalty; Der Spiegel said that apostates can face the death penalty. We should write what the source says.
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to content with efforts for independance in the
Persian province of the church -- his rival Simeon of Rewardashir produced a law book in the Persian language -- and only through a personal visit to Rewardashir was the catholicos able to persuade the metropolitan to recognize the supremacy of Ctesiphon." (p. 43)
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P.S. If there is some particular phrasing that is preferable to "Roman/Byzantine" by all means please feel free to edit. I'm only suggesting that the phrasing should not mislead the average reader (i.e. the fact that a scholar on the subject would understand what is meant does not mean that it is not
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I point this out because the article makes it seem that ancient
Christianity in Persia was only due to the presence of non-Persian minorities (Armenians, Assyrians, etc.), whereas this is not strictly true. There were likely *ethnically* Persian Christians, who had strong contacts with their brothers
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I was indeed referring to older version (I even made a small mistake when edited), but even in this way it's questionable and requires more serious studies. As far as I know, there are only a several thousands of protestant
Christians in Iran, more then ten times less then the lowest claims by those
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References: 1. "The Church of the East," (book) by
Wilheam Baum & Dietmar W. Winkler on Ishoyahb III of Adiabene (650-8): "In a letter to the metropolitan of Rewardashir (present-day Zaydun), he summarized his views regarding primacy in the East and mentioned congregations in India. Ishoyahb had
1416:
The fact is that you "can not trust
Iranian source" (despite it's scholarly work) because you think there's "the extensive state censorship and repression" (your personal prejudicial opinion), is not the basis on which citing is done. Again, there are academic publications regarding to the subject,
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First of all, I removed the NPOV tag. I'm not really saying that I actually believe the viewpoint is neutral; my main concern is that if you put an NPOV tag on an article, you should state why you believe it is NPOV. In other words, there should be an actual ongoing documented NPOV dispute in the
1636:"According to Reza Afshari, the Judiciary still provided legal space for the clerical judges to apply traditional Islamic law, not codified in state laws, so the crime was punishable by fines, lashing, and prison terms, leaving it to the Islamic judges to impose the death penalty if they desired."
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2. "History of the World
Christian Movement," (book) by Dale T. Irvin, Scott Sunquist "We know very little of any distinctive ethical teachings the community may have upheld, although in one of Timothy's letters he states that marriage between Persian and Indian Christians is permissible, another
1666:"There are some officially recognized ethnically Iranian Christian communities, as the descendants of Muslims who converted to Protestant Christianity in 19th century were exempted from the laws passed in 1979" - a simple "citation needed" would be more appropriate than removal of this material.
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First, the text originally discussed the
Nestorian schism as a split between the "Western" church and the Persian church. This, of course, refers to the fact that the Persian congregations split from the official Roman imperial establishment in the 5th century (of course, the church in the Roman
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I great enjoy for Iran
Christians fellow for I heard the christian revolution is highly dominate and truth become reflect even though they may be persecutes, murder and a devil protest face them as result I would like to thanks Lord that being with them his glorious power and spirit with them.
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Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, namely
Knowledge (XXG):Neutral point of view, Knowledge (XXG):Verifiability, Knowledge (XXG):No original
1431:
P.S. I just found in Sanasarian:2000 the number of Protestants are "a few thousand", with estimates giving from 5,000 up to 15,000. I also found in Afshari:2001 (a dissident) that there's no any law regarding religious conversion, but he himself claims that Iranian government sometimes used
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and there are also all Iranian laws available online. Regarding mine "as far as you know", I forgot to add "...from serious studies, books, and official data". Vast majority of Christians from censuses are Armenian and Assyrian, while several thousands others are Catholic and Protestant. --
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The article also doesn't say that; it has not said that since the 19th of October, when I actually read the associated cite (which appears in fact to be a serious piece of research), updated the sentence to reflect what the study said, and removed some questionable claims from missionary
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claim that the Church of the East was not borne in the 5th century but it was borne with the Saint Thomas the Apostle. In the IV century there was the split of the hierarchy between the pro-Byzantine_Empire and the East part, but the hierarchy itself was probably more ancient.
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You may also want to mention the Metropolitan of Rewardashir (Simeon) and his communications with Catholicos Ishoyahb III. The former wanted independence as he felt the his province (Fars) was evangelized by Thomas, while the latter represented the sea of Mari and Adai.
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You do not get a sense of this at all from reading the article. There are very legitimate reasons to be wary of some of these sects as thinly veiled political fronts, for national security reasons. We need to make clear that this is not like the Saudi Arabia situation.
1642:"According to the Iranian scholars ..." - this sentence is a pointless diversion, serving only as a smokescreen over the well-cited fact that apostates can in fact face the death penalty. It hardly seems pertinent to the point at hand and hence should be removed.
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When a reader reads "Roman" about Church history he thinks to the Papacy that in this case was not involved at all. The issue was between the Church of the Byzantine Empire, urged by its emperator to be united with Costantinople, and who wanted to be out from its
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Second, A ntv took issue with my mentioning the Nestorian schism as being the genesis of the Assyrian and Chaldean Churches arguing with both the timeframe and the relationship between these churches and the original community of believers. My thoughts:
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in Malabar India. In fact, the community of Syrian Christians in Kerala, India are probably the result of intermarriage between Persian and Indian Christians. To this day they possess Crosses from the 9th century (or earlier) with Pahlavi inscriptions.
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You might want to work on this. The second class status of non muslims in muslim conquered lands and the mechanisms that killed off the original cultures is well documented by Bat Yeor although I don't know of texts relating to Persia in particular.
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If I make it I expect to get reverted immediately, so I'm endeavouring to establish that there is support for my proposal in the hope that that reversion won't happen. Sorry for the delay in replying - I've been away from Knowledge (XXG) for a week.
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I invite comments from other editors on recent changes to the article pertaining to the state of Christian converts in Iran. My position and a proposed edit are in the section immediately below. I regret this is a "Bad Question", as described at
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I'm not sure that I agree with the argument that there are other communities of faithful that consider themselves theologically descended from the original Persian Christians. I'd be interested to know the literature that discusses
1630:"Iranian officials repeatedly rejected such claims" - that a murderous regime like Iran denies many of its own murders is not remarkable. Unless there is some reason to suppose their assertion can be proven, it should be removed.
1766:
In most of the article, we are quite careful when describing each Christian group and their position in Iran. It appears that most of the older groups are tolerated there.... Syriac, Oriental Orthodox, Chaladean Catholic, etc.
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When it talks about "persecution" of supposed converts from Islam, it doesn't mention that this is to completely artificial Protestant sects created in very recent times, originating mostly in the United States (such as
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What does this sentence mean? "Christians of Iran have played a significant part in the history of Christian mission." It is unreferenced so no context. It doesn't seem to fit the linked article "Christian mission".
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I removed one leading space in the comment above, so that Knowledge (XXG) inserted line-breaks, instead of one real long sentence. This was merely a formatting issue; I did not wish to offend someone by editing their
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research and Knowledge (XXG):Biographies of living persons. Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. Tags should be added as a last resort.
1663:"After the Iranian Revolution, Christians in Iran were not allowed to proselytize or evangelize Muslims" - this could stay removed; we are more concerned with the current state of affairs, anyway.
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Abbas Pir-Abassi, known as a "hanging judge" because of his draconian rulings, is set to hear Saeed's case at 9:00am Iran Time (GMT +3:30), e.g., 1230am (the 21st) EST. Here is his Facebook:
1657:- "The underground nature of the Christian conversion movement has made numbers impossible to determine accurately". (This cite also states that apostates can face the death penalty.)
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She's a political activist, daughter of Iranian political emigrants, apologist of former Pahlavi dictatorship. She even wrote article supportive to Saudi Wahhabi monarchy against Iran
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The timeframe is debatable I suppose but it was the 5th century schism that established the independence of the Persian community of faithful and began its independent hierarchy.
1624:- "judges have invoked the said Article 214 to mete out the death sentence in many apostasy cases on the basis of the views of Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the IRI".
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Rev. Saeed Abedini, a U.S. citizen, is being held in IRAN on trumped-up charges of National Security issues, but in actuality, for preaching the Christian religion.
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1353:- this sounds like a mere fantasy for anyone engaged in Iranian studies. Such claims come from missionary organizations whose reliability is highly questionable. --
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1660:(There are a lot of American Christian evangelist Websites that blithely assert there are loads, but I don't think they're remotely reliable sources either...)
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New persecution situation in the world-wide news now: Rev. Saeed Abedini, a U.S. citizen, may face the death penalty for evangelizing the Christian gospel.
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A 2015 study estimates between 100,000 and 500,000 Christian believers from a Muslim background living in Iran, most of the evangelical Christians.
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Regardless, the history discussion is incomplete. It does not clearly explain the origins of the Assyrian Church (or even the Chaldean Church).
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No idea what you are saying here - she did not edit the article. You've also been warned on your profile talk to stop disruptive editing.
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Iran banned Christianity Iran banned christian because islam are only allowed in iran in other islam countries they allowed christianity
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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New persecution situation in the world-wide news now: Rev. Saeed Abedini, a U.S. citizen, may face the death penalty for preaching
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In Dec 2012, after all propaganda about Nadarkhani was proved as false, she started with new and almost identhical story about
838:. We wish good luck to mrs. Daftari with her political agendas, but she should know that encyclopedia isn't place for that. --
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1633:"the Islamic Civil Code was silent on apostasy" - other cites explain how apostates may nevertheless face the death penalty.
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missionary organizations. Claims about apostasy are removed because it's utter nonsense without any basis in Iranian law or
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It's interesting, further, than Simeon produced a book of Canon Law in Pahlavi. There is also a Psalter written in Pahlavi.
462:"The Islamic conquest of Persia, in the 7th century, was originally good for Christians as they were a protected minority."
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1388:. I'm well aware there are tons of articles (mainly non-professional) which claims otherwise, but it's factually wrong. --
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You can Google search and verify that Pastor Saeed Abedini has been in the news lately, so this is a current situation.
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You cannot simply remove cited material because you don't like it. Have you learned nothing from your previous blocks?
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https://web.archive.org/web/20131231000642/http://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Apr09/Art_Apr09_23.html
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https://web.archive.org/web/20131231000642/http://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Apr09/Art_Apr09_23.html
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http://web.archive.org/web/20150402175628/http://www.222ministries.org/iran/iran-today/religion-and-religious-freedom/
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https://web.archive.org/web/20040625122043/http://www.iranchamber.com/religions/history_of_christianity_iran1.php
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It is entirely straightforward to show extensive state censorship and repression; Amnesty document it routinely.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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https://web.archive.org/web/20131029201952/http://stfrancismagazine.info/ja/images/pdf/7DuaneMillerSFM5-5.pdf
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Your prepared edit appears good to me, but it would help to briefly summarize what remains at issue here.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/iran-blog/2014/may/12/iran-converted-christians-sanctuary-germany-muslim
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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https://web.archive.org/web/20131029184117/http://amar.sci.org.ir/Detail.aspx?Ln=E&no=95486&S=GW
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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https://web.archive.org/web/20160304050236/http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/mar/assessment.asp?groupId=63010
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is a prepared edit in my sandbox incorporating my proposals above, to make the intention clear.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/sources/census/2010_PHC/Iran/Iran-2011-Census-Results.pdf
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https://web.archive.org/web/20150331174726/http://old.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=180160
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
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Not according to Afshari: according to Der Spiegel, a perfectly good source. Deal with it.
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indication that there were Christians whose cultural identity was fully Indian." (p. 310)
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recently modified some edits I had made so it seems a short discussion here is in order.
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happened many centuries later, and all of them claim to be the true heir of the ancient
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Hence a simple statement that apostates can face the death penalty should be restored.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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organisations. So why are you complaining about text that isn't even in the article?
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It's an interesting read, but currently with almost no substantiation whatsoever.
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That being said, this article has a much bigger problem than merely neutrality.
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http://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Apr09/Art_Apr09_23.html
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http://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Apr09/Art_Apr09_23.html
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http://www.222ministries.org/iran/iran-today/religion-and-religious-freedom/
817:"American pastor Abedini being imprisoned without notice of charges in Iran"
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About the history of these split up, I've written it with lots of refs in
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http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-search-post.cfm?country=Iran
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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https://web.archive.org/web/20090302212151/http://www.onlinekelisa.com/
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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
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The RfC participants (Pinkbeast, Jzsj, and Fusion2186) all agree that
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080316085600/http://www.iranchurches.ir/
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http://www.iranchamber.com/religions/history_of_christianity_iran1.php
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No doubt you will be producing solid cites for this proposed change.
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It's obvious you're trying to force POV, so conversation is over. --
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was done after the above discussion. I do not think it is helpful.
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http://stfrancismagazine.info/ja/images/pdf/7DuaneMillerSFM5-5.pdf
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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This literally says that judges _can_ impose the death penalty.
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http://amar.sci.org.ir/Detail.aspx?Ln=E&no=95486&S=GW
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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I'll leave this alone for now to allow for some discussion.
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This article has been marked as needing immediate attention.
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Rewardashir and ethnic Persian Christians in ancient times.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/mar/assessment.asp?groupId=63010
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talk page that specifies which way and how it is skewed.
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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http://old.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=180160
806:"Iran re-arrested Pastor Nadarkhani on Christmas Day"
797:. Despite dozens of sites followed her, it proved as
421:] The anchor (#Reserved Parliament seats) has been
298:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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https://www.fidh.org/IMG/pdf/Rapport_Iran_final.pdf
1616:Additional cites are available and could be added.
1287:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
1137:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
959:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
757:https://www.facebook.com/PrayForPastorSaeedAbedini
1762:Need clarity on Anglo-American Protestants sects
200:, a project which is currently considered to be
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819:. Some media follows her again (her article is
512:Sources Needed, No Drive-By NPOV Tagging Please
1273:This message was posted before February 2018.
1123:This message was posted before February 2018.
945:This message was posted before February 2018.
558:Disagreements on history wrt Nestorian schism
8:
645:and do not give priority to a single claim.
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795:"Iran court convicted Naderkhani to death"
443:Knowledge (XXG):How to archive a talk page
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1203:I have just modified 5 external links on
1043:I have just modified 5 external links on
1499:. Beside, your threats are laughable. --
536:Almost nothing in the article is sourced
312:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Christianity
1859:Christianity articles needing attention
1089:http:///EBchecked/topic/433619/Orumiyeh
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1854:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy articles
1727:I Think the prepared edit looks good.
1491:You should seriously study more about
934:to let others know (documentation at
690:Talk:Religion_in_Iran#600_Churches.3F
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1839:Mid-importance Christianity articles
1572:Knowledge (XXG):Requests for comment
1557:The following discussion is closed.
441:If further archiving is needed, see
292:This article is within the scope of
196:This article is within the scope of
95:This article is within the scope of
212:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Assyria
38:It is of interest to the following
1844:C-Class Eastern Orthodoxy articles
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1864:WikiProject Christianity articles
1751:The discussion above is closed.
1207:. Please take a moment to review
1047:. Please take a moment to review
887:. Please take a moment to review
315:Template:WikiProject Christianity
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650:Chaldean_Catholic_Church#History
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1113:Corrected formatting/usage for
519:No drive-by NPOV tagging please
332:This article has been rated as
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1386:Shia Imami (Twelver) tradition
456:Archive 1 (up to Dec 12, 2005)
1:
1834:C-Class Christianity articles
1824:High-importance Iran articles
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1341:06:49, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
723:12:48, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
702:19:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
357:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy
354:This article is supported by
306:and see a list of open tasks.
1723:16:02, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
1708:11:18, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
1694:12:24, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
1676:13:03, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
1584:12:30, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
1265:http://www.onlinekelisa.com/
1031:22:03, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
848:02:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
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215:Template:WikiProject Assyria
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661:Assyrian Church of the East
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1304:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1200:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1191:12:07, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
1154:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1040:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
976:(last update: 5 June 2024)
905:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
880:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
665:Ancient Church of the East
635:Ancient Church of the East
338:project's importance scale
149:project's importance scale
1829:WikiProject Iran articles
1011:22:51, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
688:I'd envite comment - see
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641:. So in wiki we shall be
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804:In Dec 2012 she claimed
793:In Feb 2012 she claimed
657:Chaldean Catholic Church
627:Chaldean Catholic Church
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32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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885:Christianity in Iran
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1275:After February 2018
1125:After February 2018
947:After February 2018
926:parameter below to
287:Christianity portal
198:WikiProject Assyria
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1329:InternetArchiveBot
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1540:looks good.
938:Sourcecheck
709:—Preceding
468:—Preceding
111:discussions
90:Iran portal
1813:Categories
1729:Fusion2186
1594:Discussion
1336:Report bug
1186:Report bug
545:JorenCombs
248:Eastern O.
115:open tasks
1796:Pinkbeast
1715:Pinkbeast
1686:Pinkbeast
1668:Pinkbeast
1576:Pinkbeast
1501:MehrdadFR
1479:Pinkbeast
1465:MehrdadFR
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1434:MehrdadFR
1419:MehrdadFR
1404:Pinkbeast
1390:MehrdadFR
1371:Pinkbeast
1355:MehrdadFR
1319:this tool
1312:this tool
1169:this tool
1162:this tool
1083:dead link
991:this tool
984:this tool
785:(FoxNews)
1325:Cheers.—
1175:Cheers.—
997:Cheers.—
895:cbignore
857:unsigned
711:unsigned
694:Smkolins
608:Mcorazao
593:Mcorazao
470:unsigned
203:inactive
177:inactive
1209:my edit
1087:tag to
1049:my edit
1007::Online
924:checked
889:my edit
825:WP:NPOV
692:please
643:WP:NPOV
581:theses.
425:before.
336:on the
209:Assyria
172:Assyria
147:on the
30:C-class
1589:Survey
1544:Cunard
1079:Added
932:failed
903:nobots
36:scale.
1598:This
829:WP:RS
810:false
799:false
730:post.
670:A ntv
563:A ntv
1800:talk
1785:talk
1733:talk
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1704:talk
1700:Jzsj
1690:talk
1682:This
1672:talk
1600:edit
1580:talk
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1027:talk
928:true
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827:and
772:talk
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612:talk
597:talk
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525:...
478:talk
406:Tip:
139:High
120:Iran
103:Iran
59:Iran
1293:RfC
1263:to
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Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
