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Jesus, there was a section on debates among historians about how to read the
Gospels, and whether Jesus existed. Then there was a section on how historians reconstruct the historical, or interpret the Gospel, Jesus, based on what they know about the historical and cultural context. At some point someone decided (correctly) that the Jesus article was too long, and spun different sections into new articles. That is how this article came to be. It is not meant to be an article on Jewish history as such (though many editors have added a lot of content on Jewish history in general), it was meant to be an explanation of the historical view of institutions - the Davidic monarchy, the Temple, the Priesthood, the Saducees and Pharisees, and so on, that are all at play in the Gospels but providing the historian's understanding of these things and how knowing these things provides a historical context for reinterpreting Jesus. You can see how the article occupies a delicate space. Improvements are welcome!
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when one article gets to be too long (which some argued was what was happening at the Jesus article - my own view is, WP is not paper). I do not recall a discussion, when the various new articles were created and materials spun off. That is a shame. dab is right that there is not enough rhyme or reason regarding all the many articles regarding Jesus, but what is needed is a discussion of various possibilities and some real consensus before some are deleted, others merged or renamed, and new ones created ...
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the Temple (and thus the
Saducees and Essenes) and then explain how the first half of the article explains where these institutions or groups came from and how and why, based on Jewish sources rather than the Gospel, on order to provide an independent bais for interpreting elements of the Gospel (like, "son of God" and "Messiah" and what the Pharisees really believed." This requires some finesse and i cannot see how to do it but it is the rationale for the whole thing. 20:43, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
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1810:. That is almost always the best solution to problems with disproportion. Boyarin is a very highly regarded scholar. I think the article has the bare minimum to represent his view. How does this in any way prohibit you from adding other views, giving them as much attention as necessary to provide an accurate account of the view?
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longer be converted. As you noted above in agreement with myself, missions to
Gentiles were early in stark contradiction to the articles claim. This contraditiction is made worse by dedicating undue weight to the marginal view of Boyarin which says the opposite of the articles claims at the most extreme spectrum.
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information about Jewish history, claiming it belonged in a Jewish history rather than jesus article, I do not know how to word it, but the introduction should simply list the Jewish institutions that are prominent in the
Gospels - the Law (and tnhus the scribes and Pharisees); the Davidic Monarchy;
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Anyway, back to the article. As it reads, it gives undue weight to (1) fringe theories which are (2) not cited. Take what I just tagged in my last edit as a recent example. We have the claim that the Jewish sect of
Christians turned to proselytising Gentiles because they could no longer attract Jews.
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Of course you find the material questionable. That does not matter. Our NPOV policy demands we put in views we consider questionable. I will provide more citations, but there are a number of historians who hold these views. I am sure there is room to provide other views. But never delete content
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NPOV requires that we provide all significant views. Even and especially when they disagree with one another. I am not sure what you mean by coherency in this context. But I repeat a fourth time: if you feel views are missing, add them. Your insinuation that I am trying to monopolize the article
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You demand an apology for attacking me - and then you go on with the theme of an alleged agenda claiming that I have deleted this misinformation because I "do not like" it. That personalisation is what was pathetic, Slrubenstein. I understand you have pride in this article, however, before you go on
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The introductory sentence does not appear to represent the scope of the article. It states "This examination treats the New
Testament as one of many documents, written and perhaps later edited by people who wanted others to believe as they did, which can be used to piece together a more complete and
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Sorry
Leadwind, I thought you had access to a library and never meant to suggest you should spend more money on books. Also, I mentioned these because given your track-record I thought you might enjoy reading them. I know you have read much already and certainly have plenty of basis for making good
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leading expert on
Hellenistic Judaism, observes that there are no sects within Judaism after 70 CE. He observes that there may still have been Jewish Christians, but that there simply is no historical record of it. I do not see anything controversial in suggesting that after that date Christianity
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I am not sure where it says that
Gentile conversion is a late development. I think it says that after a certain date the growth of Christianity came mostly from Gentiles rather than from Jews. This does not mean that there were no Gentile converts to Christian Judaism. And I think that all major
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I did not write the line on when the
Gospels or NT were written. I know there is some debate about this and would be glad to see a well-informed discussion of the major views on when they were written. if you have something to add to that discussion, why not add it? I am sure that there is a way
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A good deal of the contents of this article used to be in the Jesus article (ditto most of the other articles dab mentions). I do not remember who it was that spun them off into content forks (wasn't me). Content forks are fine when each article can stand on its own, and they are often necessary
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The biggest problem is the lack of inline citations. Virtually everything about the Jews, especially the Rabbis and Pharisees, comes from the Neusner or Cohen or Schwarz sources. Virtually everything on Jesus, including his relation to Jewish institutions, comes from Vermes or Fredricksen. They
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Well, it seems to me obvious that there should be a common history up to a point and then to sections for the divergent histories. Any edits that add useful content would be welcome. I see that Daniel Boyarin has a new book out on precisely this issue (separation of Judaism and Christianity) - I
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I see no contradiction between saying Jews (including early Christians) sought prosylites from the Gentiles - Jesus even instructs his desciples to do so - and saying that at some point Christians relied more on Gentile converts than Jews. As to the dating of when that happened, I repeat again,
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Well, you are right. I watch this page but do not follow every edit, I don'tknow when or who added that first line. If you wish to rewrite the introduction, fel free! Just so you know: this entire section used to be part of the Jesus article. In addition to a section on the Gospec account of
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I just read the section on on the divergence of Christianity from Judaism, and it's about 75% there. It succeeds in giving a reasonably accurate and well-written account, but it needs more citations, more sources, and more material about Paul (as well as other topics). If editors think that one
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It seems you have misunderstood my post. I will not repeat the personal attacks which were evidenced in the two posts - but I will continue with the article content. The contradiction is between the articles unreferenced claim that Gentile conversion was a late development because Jews could no
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Similarly, we have a significant chunk on Boyarin's thesis, yet his idea that Paul was a Hellenistic Jew edging towards Platonism is marginal. Seeing Paul in the reflection of Philo is a step in the wrong direction. Ironically enough, Boyarin's overemphasis on early Christian universalism again
1709:) The factual accuracy of the statements are questionable (is that less ambiguous for you if the extensive edit summaries were not?) and the consensus of scholarship is generally against it. Trying to turn an issue regarding scholarly consensus into a personal beef is simply pathetic of you. --
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I do not believe I ever attacked you. If you feel I made a personalattack please tell me where, it may be a misunderstanding, which I certainly regret. But I did criticize your deleting content, and I assumed you distinguish between criticism and attack. Segal is one among many respectable
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sources agree that after a certain date very few Jews opted for Christianity. I suppose this is tied in with when one dates a break between Judaism and Christianity. I do not know of any major scholar who suggests a major overlap between Judaism and Christianty after 100. Shaye JD Cohen,
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The POV aside, it would be difficult trying to find a citation to back this up. Take for the example that our earliest sources refer to mutual missions to both Jew and Gentile within the first 15 years of the movement. A far cry from post-fall. (Cf. the works by Michael Bird among others).
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Leadwind, the "Council of Javne" is a hypothesis first promoted by Graetz, and now fairly thoroughly discredited. It can't have been a "major event" in the development of Judaism, since there wasn't really any "Council of Javne", at least not as conceived of in popular literature.
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The greatest problem is that it isn't an encyclopedia article about th "Cultural and historical background of Jesus". It is a book somebody wrote about the origins of Christianity. Unfortunately, Knowledge (XXG) articles need to stick to the topic defined by their titles, see
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I believe this article is neutral. I do not believe there are any claims that appear heavily biased toward a particular position. I just believe this article is trying to inform us and persuade us at the same time that this information written is true.
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The destruction of the Temple is key, but the near simultaneous destruction of the Romal Jewish community at that time is just as key - no more Roman Jew, no more Roman Christians, which means that thenseforward, the Roman Christian community would be
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2. Paul opens the movement to gentiles and defines Jesus, not the Law, as the proper foundation of religious life. Judaism includes mostly non-Christians plus many Christians. Christianity includes many Jews but more and more gentiles.
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I do not agree that Boyarin's view is marginal, and I do not think it can be cut down without doing damage to it. But if you feel undue weight is given to Boyarin, I again encourage you to add those views that you feel are missing.
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You mention other sources - none of whom are among the leading contemporary Jesus scholars, and none of whom are mentioned in the article. But if you believe they are reliable sources representing significant views, why don't you
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You owe me an apology for saying what I have done is pathetic. Don't get so defensive. You were wrong to delete material that others believe reflects a significant point of view. So you made a mistake. Did I call you pathetic?
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2. Paul opens the movement to gentiles and defines Jesus, not the Law, as the proper foundation of religious life. Judaism includes mostly non-Christians plus many Christians. Christianity includes many Jews but more and more
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source or another is given undue weight, it would be nice to see other sources added for balance. A good source ought to be able to tell us what the mainstream view is, so we could easily agree on what views are marginal.
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I wrote some of the material you question, I did not write all. You should get used to the fact tha Knowledge (XXG) is a collaborative effort. So instead of just deleting what you do not like, try working with others.
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4. Christianity becomes less and less Jewish. Judaism develops rabbinic leadership. The council of Javne and the Bar Kochba revolt are two more major milestones in the differentiation of Christianity from Judaism.
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have not red it but it must be cutting edge; he is a top scholar at a top university published in the top journals and by the best university presses. Leadwind, any chance you could check out his latest book?
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to include a range of major points of view. So far I do not think I deleted any major content you added. So tell me again who is pathetic? Or is it just possible that no one is? Where is your good faith?
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1. Jesus establishes a restoration movement within Judaism and is executed. His closest followers have visionary experiences of Jesus resurrected, and his movement continues as a Jewish sect.
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1. Jesus establishes a restoration movement within Judaism and is executed. His closest followers have visionary experiences of Jesus resurrected, and his movement continues as a Jewish sect.
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are in the works cited, but this article would be stronger if someone could go back and find the appropriate citations from these four or five principle (and respected) sources.
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SLR, I don't think I'm likely to pick up Boyarin and I'm not familiar with Cook or White. I've spent about $ 300 on source books and am likely to slow down on new purchases now.
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Why exactly is it beginning with how it treats the NT documents when the article deals broadly with the cultural and historical background of Jesus rather than Jesus and the NT.
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Marginal positions received marginal reference - not representation as if they are consensus. Scholarship is against these questionable claims and that is why they were removed.
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Making this section work will require a lot of editing and plenty of new material. Currently it's pretty fragmented. If I were to rework it, I'd put it in chronological order.
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does not apply to articles about Jesus, and that everyone can add yet another article on the same topic just as long as they can think of a title that is not yet occupied? --
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4a and 4b are the crux and we have to address head on how Christianity became less appealing to Jews, but Christianity became more appealing to Gentiles... in an NPOV way.
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By the way, on this I find Michael Cook's book extermely helpful, ahough written for a lay audience. Also do you know Michael White's From Jesus to Christianity?
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If my suggesting that you find material you wish to delete questionable is a sign of a lack of good faith, you have no understanding of the principle behind NPOV.
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The suggests are to delete the erroneous claim (it is unreferenced, and it could not possibly be harmonised with the sources), and cut down on Boyarin's view. --
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3. The Temple is destroyed. This is probably the best single point where we can see that the tension between Christianity and Judaism results in a split.
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This article is not as bad as many other articles floating around. Generally well written, but most sections are source free. It really needs sources...
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3. The Temple is destroyed. This is probably the best single point where we can see that the tension between Christianity and Judaism results in a split.
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I also must say, I don't quite get the first sentence. "Of course you find the material questionable." I wonder what your suggestion here is!(
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contradicts the earlier uncited claim in the article that Gentile missions were late. An extreme lack of coherency in this regard.--
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scholars. In any event, it seems I have to repeat what I already said: if you feel important views are absent from the article
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depended primarily on Gentiles for new converts. But like I said, if you have other sources that claim otherwise, add them.
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But you have to check with Ari, I get the sense that for some reason it is this kind of stuff he considers the NPOV problem.
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who is an authority on the relationship between Christianity as a sect of greater Judaism, and their subsequent divergence.
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James Dunn, and Bart Ehrman have taken the position that since the Oral Tradition was reliable, then the Synoptic Gospels
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2270:. so to some extent, any information about Jesus or his teachings or early Christianity strays from the topic somewhat.
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because you disagree with it, or even because there are some scholars who disagree with it. That violates our policy.
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4a. Judaism develops rabbinic leadership. The council of Javne and the Bar Kochba revolt are two more major events.
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because I wish to keep some views you consider marginal is the insult. I repeat: I never intentionally
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This is a great article, but the wording lacks the clarity needed for an encyclopedia article. -
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authentic understanding of the life and times of Jesus and the founding of Early Christianity."
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are accurate. Then "Jesus did exist" and we have an historically "accurate picture" of this
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Why, specifically, is there a POV tag on the page? What would it take to resolve the issue?
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The first footnote to this lead sentence is also a bit worrying and clearly not NPOV.--
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SLR, OK, let's do common history, the split, and then divergent histories, thus...
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Your claim regarding the citations was a bit worrying. For example, I began with
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Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran
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If the tag doesn't represent a current dispute, I ought to remove it. Ari?
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149:-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us
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Correct English would be: "Historical background of the New Testament".
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without regard to whether Jesus existed as an actual historical figure
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Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
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This will result in a number of articles being updated. Cheers -
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We can readily flesh this chronology out with mainstream sources.
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them to the article, instead of deleting what you do not like?
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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such a polemical offensive you should also be reminded of
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this article is not, nor is it intended to be about Jesus
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Articles needing translation from Hebrew Knowledge (XXG)
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and other New Testament figures also. Or maybe just
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Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
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Cultural and historical background of New Testament
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1682:19:36, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
1662:15:52, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
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1054:and see a list of open tasks.
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2283:—Preceding
2272:User:Pedant
1190:Collaborate
42:peer review
40:received a
2508:Categories
2485:Evaluating
2463:, & p
1599:Archive 16
1592:Archive 15
1587:Archive 14
1582:Archive 13
1575:Archive 12
1570:Archive 11
1565:Archive 10
1459:Guy Oseary
1251:Edna Arbel
2019:gentiles.
1558:Archive 9
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1541:Archive 6
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1514:Archive 1
1455:Guy Bavli
1294:See also
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1808:add them
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168:Religion
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99:Religion
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1323:Infobox
1168:Cleanup
1111:history
1084:on the
979:on the
890:on the
786:defunct
760:defunct
730:on the
625:on the
584:History
575:History
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528:History
503:on the
476:Judaism
467:Judaism
423:Judaism
314:on the
233:History
195:on the
70:B-class
2467:p 117
2311:, the
2307:, the
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1425:Update
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1145:Assess
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1004:Israel
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1507:Index
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229:Jesus
225:Bible
2496:talk
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