1893:"Cybernetics has its origins in exchanges between numerous fields during the 1940s, including anthropology, mathematics, neuroscience, psychology, and engineering. Initial developments were consolidated through meetings such as the Macy Conferences and the Ratio Club. At its most prominent during the 1950s and 1960s, cybernetics is a precursor to fields such as computing, artificial intelligence, cognitive science, complexity science, and robotics amongst others. It is closely related to systems science, which was developed in parallel. Early focuses included purposeful behaviour, neural networks, heterarchy, information theory, and self-organising systems. As cybernetics developed, it became broader in scope to include work in domains such as design, family therapy, management and organisation, pedagogy, sociology, and the creative arts. At the same time, questions arising from circular causality have been explored in relation to the philosophy of science, ethics, and constructivist approaches, while cybernetics has also been associated with counter-cultural movements. Contemporary cybernetics thus varies widely in scope and focus, with cyberneticians variously adopting and combining technical, scientific, philosophical, creative, and critical approaches."
1958:- thanks for your engagement on this page, and for looking for some consensus on the talk page. It would be great to figure out the first sentence here. Defining cybernetics in one sentence has some difficulties compared to physics, as a lot of definitions refer only to parts of the field or particular approaches to it. There are two early definitions of cybernetics' subject matter, from the 1940s. One the subtitle of Wiener's book ('Communication and Control in the Animal and Machine') and the other from the Macy Conferences ('Circular Causal and Feedback Mechanisms in Biological and Social Systems'). The field expanded and fragmented after that point, so these only work to some extent now. I think the best way to include them would be as the second sentence, something like 'Cybernetics was initially defined as the study of...'.
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devices. Jakob von UexkĂźll applied the feedback mechanism via his model of functional cycle (Funktionskreis) in order to explain animal behaviour and the origins of meaning in general. In the
Electric Mind 2-2 Model Model Patent from 1898, Tesla demonstrates his radio-controlled torpedo boat at Madison Square Garden in Ney York City. Electronic control systems was also described with the 1927 work of Bell Telephone Laboratories engineer Harold S. Black on using negative feedback to control amplifiers. In 1935 Russian physiologist P. K. Anokhin published a book in which the concept of feedback ("back afferentation") was studied. Other precursors include: Alexander Bogdanov's tektology, Scottish philosopher Kenneth Craik and Romanian physician Čtefan Odobleja.
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economy at large scale during the early 1970s* don't really contribute to the overall article much other than subjectively justifying its notoriety. Let me make it clear that I'm not disputing that the section has good information in it, just its overall writing style and encyclopedic value for the general reader. Much (if not most) of the section is too specific to be of interest to the general population, which is
Knowledge (XXG)'s intended audience. I think a good way to start pruning the section's useful content from the too-particular is to try to define where the line is between both and I think looking at similar articles would be a good place to start.
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flow of the water accordingly to maintain a constant level of water in the reservoir. This was the first artificial truly automatic self-regulatory device that required no outside intervention between the feedback and the controls of the mechanism. Devices constructed by
Ktesibios and others such as Hero of Alexandria, Philo of Byzantium, and Su Song, are early examples of cybernetic principles in action.
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1488:(although I settled for the less-inflammatory "overly-detailed"). Perhaps the ideal solution is to find a better way to introduce all this information into the article (or even a new article)? I've seen that you are a major contributor to this page and I want to honestly thank you for that - our different opinions on this specific topic aside, I think the page is now in a
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after discussion on the talk page to include an example). Some of the early drafts here have 'regulatory feedback' but I don't think that is better. 'Circular causal processes' is, I think, the most accurate - but is more abstract. It could be followed by some examples - 'circular causal processes such as feedback, goal-oriented behaviour, ...'
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some careful negotiation I think (see talk page) and seems to get it right. Perhaps more of the Soviet details can just be on their own page, but there is also a balance to strike in making sure the page isn't too of a USA story (again see talk page). There will be a bit to add to second/third waves, so it should even out in time.
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will try a reorganisation/rewrite of influence section, moving some parts to subfields (which I think will need renaming, or splitting). Will reintroduce some of the more important headers (eg sociocybernetics, second-order cybernetics) you removed with expanded text. LMK what you think of the direction....
1314:--- Good points. I have had a go, bringing the example of steering a ship up into the lead section. How does this read? I think its best to avoid definitions in the lead paragraph as once you start with definitions of cybernetics they start expanding (there is a whole section of these in the article...).
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Cybernetics is a wide-ranging transdisciplinary field based on the study of feedback and other circular causal processes. It was initially defined as the scientific study of "circular causal and feedback mechanisms in biological and social systems" and "control and communication in the animal and the
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I have done some edits to improve/trim the history section. It could have some more detail removed from precursors and first wave section if desired, but I think how the water clock worked is helpful to keep (desire generally on this talk page for examples), the von
Neumann sentence was the result of
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Hi IP user. I reviewed the text and agree with your flags re the text you highlight. I have removed some already. There are other bits that just need better contextualisation. If you keep pointing things out, I can try to do edits as I have some overview of what content is more central than others. I
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Hi, I have never read anything on cybernetics, so coming from a complete outside perspective. I found the lead and definition section to be a bit difficult to grasp. Offering these in simpler
English and then widening their definition to included nuances might help clarify exactly what cybernetics is
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The lede sentence as it is is meaningless. "Cybernetics is a wide-ranging field concerned with circular causal processes such as feedback." This is not a useful definition, nor is it a definition at all, for it does not actually state what cybernetics is, but merely what it concerns. A lede sentence
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Another issue is that as the number of entries in this heading grows, we will go back to the "very long" issue that was just fixed recently. This section can be and has been a "catch all" for all types of trivia-like (but relevant) information and it cannot grow indiscriminately without lowering the
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I should read the section in full after the recent changes when time permits but I have a small suggestion: adding a small introduction,(in the form of a list perhaps) defining each wave's characteristics, periods, notable figures and researches and references to works by people who helped formalize
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IP User, can you have a look over this heading structure. I have reframed and relocated material about applications to be with subfields. This avoids duplication. However, this will mean some of the flags may apply to that section - please review. I have reintroduced some subheadings and added basic
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Good point - (although the use of 'feedback' in that sense does originate with cybernetics, but the sense of circularity has been lost along the way). It is hard to define feedback within the first sentence without it getting complicated (the ship example comes later in the paragraph to unpack it -
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The precursors section was removed as uncited. That's fair enough, and actually deals with the 'too detailed' flag (which can now be removed). But there should be something re precursors (otherwise the article underrepresents non-US centric sources and the extent that those in the 40s were building
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Re the edits by the anon IP. I think removing the top level categorisation here is not the best move. At the bottom level, cybernetics touches almost every field. Whereas the groupings in terms of (1) natural science/technology, (2) social/behavioural sciences, (3) various forms of practice such as
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In the late 18th century James Watt's steam engine was equipped with a governor, a centrifugal feedback valve for controlling the speed of the engine. In 1868, James Clerk
Maxwell published a theoretical article on governors, one of the first to discuss and refine the principles of self-regulating
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The first artificial automatic regulatory system was a water clock, invented by the mechanician
Ktesibios; based on a tank which poured water into a reservoir before using it to run the mechanism, it used a cone-shaped float to monitor the level of the water in its reservoir and adjust the rate of
1752:, where all this information will be both relevant and important enough - much of the trivia currently in this section is not of any interest to the general person reading the page but is going to be right a home in a page that is specifically and solely about the many applications of cybernetics.
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I understand that the categorization makes sense to you but ultimately it is arbitrary. Biology and engineering fit into the same category as much as economics and psychology do, which is to say not at all. Meanwhile, the section in general is now shortened enough (and it was much needed) that the
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There is currently a flag to expand the lead section. However, there was recently a longer version that was in good shape, but then there was an editing push to reduce it. Rather than just adding to it, I think it would be good to discuss how it should be expanded on the talk page first. Lots of
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If there can be a wording that is not just 'applications' that would be better, however. Cybernetics has not progressed just as theory being applied to other domains but also in the other direction, with ideas coming from domains like biology and management into its theory. Perhaps 'Practice and
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After reviewing the section I think
Template:Peacock or Template:Buzzword are fully relevant here. For buzzword, the section is littered with "gene regulatory networks", "smart mobs", "Cybernetic Serendipity". For peacock, trivia facts like *Project Cybersyn attempted to apply cybernetics to the
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I will write a simple proposal for the problems in this section in a minute, in a new talk section. I may have to come back to properly reply to your newer comments later when time permits. I don't edit
Knowledge (XXG) a lot and when I do it's often in the form of bold edits - I will take the
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design and management, and (4) philosophical concerns and cultural impact do make sense as a way to describe the field's structure (and to some extent periodisation). Perhaps it would work out best to keep these top levels categories and combine underneath them. I will have a look at this.
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the core theme is 'circular causality' (hence the 'circularity' section...), the most prominent aspect of which is feedback, other words that could go here are governance, purposeful action. Perhaps reversing the order of words would be better 'study of feedback and other circular causal
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There are many issues with the current section and perhaps the best way to summarize them is that while they are obviously relevant to the topic, much of the information there probably doesn't fit the criteria of importance to be on a general-purpose encyclopedia article on cybernetics.
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There hasn't been much discussion re the proposed split. I have tried a different approach, doing some cutting and making the section into a bulleted list rather than subheadings. Will be able to reduce text further by making coordinated edits on some of the pages that are linked to.
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Oxford languages provides that cybernetics is: "the science of communications and automatic control systems in both machines and living things". Starting with something along these lines and building onwards to more complex ideals of what cybernetics entails would be beneficial.
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Hi IP user, understood, and thanks for the input into this page. It is difficult to get the balance right here, because of how widespread the subject matter is. Your work on the structure is appreciated. It now needs some work on the balance of content, which I can work on.
1366:-- I thinned out the opening paragraph - moving detailed examples of feedback to main body section. See what you think. The multiple examples in the first para were added in response to other comments on the talk page, so its a question of finding the right balance I think.
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text, which can be developed when we are ready. Some subsections could be merged, some could be split, but this is the ground to cover. This leaves the influence section as focusing on those outside of cybernetics influenced by it, which deserves its own section.
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If this improvement goes through, the current section should be rewritten as a summary that explains how far-reaching the applications of bybernetics are (from psychology to biology to engineering...) with an appropriate "Main article" hat-note to the new page.
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necessity for further categorization is no longer there, I believe: having the dangling sub-sections is certainly no worse than having it grouped by non-sensical categories. Most importantly though, while we are arguing about how to organize the headings there,
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each wave. This helps as a proper summary of the section as a whole and to add citations to the notion of waves (which aren't currently in the page but that I have confirmed are established concepts through simple web-searches). Something like this:
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Cybernetics encompasses aspects of science but also work in the arts and practical fields such as management and design. This could also be 'transdisciplinary field' or 'wide ranging transdiciplinary field'.
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I'm probably not able to write a better introduction, but I feel like this is the most verbose way of opening the subject of cybernetics, while ignoring the part where it has to do with living beings.
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I have been looking back at some older versions of this page for previous opening sentences - and one of the simplest openings is 'Cybernetics is the study of feedback...' (e.g.
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Re the circularity section - I agree it does not work as it is - I am thinking to merge it with 'key concepts'. Let me have a go at that (I will add more sources too).
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better state than a week ago, much closer to a proper
Knowledge (XXG) layout, easier to read, (very much) shorter... I hope at least we can both agree on that :)
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If you could include some sources and demonstrate relevance, then I think it's a start, but I have no idea why the section as it stands should be included.
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That is way too complicated. If you had to explain it in one sentence to a middle schooler, how would you do it? That should be the first sentence.
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The history of cybernetics is organized in waves. The people who helped introduce this structure were A and B. There are X waves of cybernetics:
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I do not think that this is not a useful definition â what is feedback? Is cybernetics the study of surveys that measure customer satisfaction?
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I do like the idea of using your physics example as the shape of the first sentence. Taking it step by step in comparison to current sentence...
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Re the flag, I wonder to bring back some of the history overview into the lead, as this is part of the article but not mentioned in the lead.
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What about - 'Cybernetics is the study of feedback processes' or 'Cybernetics is the study of circular causal processes such as feedback'.
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1429:--- thanks for adding the cybernetics and socialism section. I wonder if it might fit better under 'wider influence' rather than history?
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Also, I removed a section called "circularity" that seemed to have no apparent connection to the article and having little sources. @
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2056:) so I am thinking to go with something like this (with feedback processes rather than just feedback) as the opening sentence.
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How about 'Cybnernetics is the study of systems in which the output of the system is also used as an input to that system, as
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
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related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Please suggest some alternatives to 'concerned with' Perhaps something like "that studies" or "based on the study of"?
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on historic work). I have copied the deleted text below in case anyone wants to rescue some of this (with sources).
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opportunity again to thank you for your understanding in taking the flags raised to heart!
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Requested articles/Applied arts and sciences/Computer science, computing, and Internet
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Split section "Subfields and applications" to new page "Applications of cybernetics"
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Overviews of the various aspects of the sub-fields and their "big picture" relevance
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SOC should stay on this page, but can move to be with theories (will do this now).
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I attempted to correct this by way of reference to other definitions available
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While I haven't found any manual to help in this particular conumdrum,
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My proposed solution is to move the entire section to a new article
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things could be added - but else should be? How long should it be?
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How the theories apply to both biological and artificial entities
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objects to this use, so I propose we work on a definition here.
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I hope this is a thoughtful solution (with a great reference in
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defined by these characteristics and noteworthy figures C and D.
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for a good example of what a nexus page like this one can be.
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Find pictures for the biographies of computer scientists (see
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You could also propose a separate article here, if you like.
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1770:) for the last major outstanding issues with this article,
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Expand the descriptions of the nature of cybernetics. See
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I dispute the encyclopedic value of that section entirely
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This article can be a featured article after some work.
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article's quality with each new sub-heading and entry.
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1987:= circular causal processes such as feedback - : -->
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1649:Second wave
1349:Word Lizard
1151:Game theory
1087:Cybernetics
759:Electronics
747:electronics
703:Electronics
170:Cybernetics
2154:Categories
2010:machine."
1829:Precursors
1083:To-do list
1262:Flagg2020
864:Economics
855:Economics
811:Economics
447:Computing
238:Computing
225:computing
221:computers
193:Computing
39:is rated
2117:Thanks @
2101:Feedback
1689:contribs
1677:unsigned
1655:unsigned
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1465:contribs
1453:unsigned
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1318:unsigned
1274:PrimeBOT
1198:Archives
1024:Robotics
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987:Robotics
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663:inactive
637:inactive
495:Maintain
438:Copyedit
2119:MrOllie
2105:MrOllie
2026:MrOllie
1916:Physics
1634:History
1111:refresh
1099:history
1051:on the
891:on the
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476:Infobox
414:Cleanup
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70:Systems
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