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1412:. Your gormless comment was inappropriate. Just because you call SPLC a "political opponent" doesn't make it so. As a number of editors in the other RfC explained to you, SPLC is not a political organization at all. Whether one supports them or not, they are one of the most-well known non-profit civil rights organizations in the country. They research and monitor extremism, and accept no government money. In any case, my original comment was solely to point out the repeated objections to your own RfC description. Other editors can read that RfC for themselves and make their own determination. --
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what effect it has had, in addition to the simple mention that SPLC has granted them this designation. You can't simply make the claim that being designated a hate group by the SPLC is, in and of itself, significant enough to change how we write articles about such groups. What is required first is that we show some impact, and not just minimal impact, but a significant impact that was caused by this designation. Otherwise it is demonstrably and unquestionably a minor point. --
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Part of aligning it with WP:LEAD is to know whether it has an impact. You say it needs to be a notable thing, and this doesn't mean that it is WP:NOTABLE, but simply that it must be WP:DUE to include it into the summary of the entire article. It must have some level of significance within the article
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showed overwhelming consensus that it indeed is. Avanu, it is not the job of editors to prove impact. In fact, that would be inappropriate. The purpose of editors is to make sure that content is worthy of inclusion and reliably sourced. With this RfC, our sole mission is to determine whether AV being
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This issue reveals one of those unavoidable inconsistencies with
Knowledge (XXG). Because SLPC is an extremely well-known civil rights organization (whether you are a supporter or detractor of theirs), I feel that including the hate group label in the lede (and body, of course) is clearly appropriate
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I don't know how anyone would prove they are neutral but nothing in their highly edited article has suggested they are partisan and the SPLC is not a political organization. Their data is used by many law enforcement agencies, educational institutions and journalists. They are the respected leader in
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Actually we don't need to prove that
American Vision being considered a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law center has had an impact on American Vision, although that might be an interesting addition. As the nation's leading authority on hate groups, the SPLC's designation is notable criticism in
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The question to ask, is how does this designation from the SPLC affect the
American Vision group? If it doesn't have much effect at all, then it can probably be safely ignored in the lead. If it does somehow affect them, then we need to first determine if it is a significant effect, and then explain
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lede-worthy. Our job is not to evaluate whether SPLC's reason, which would be included in the body, is good or bad. We simply add factual content as we know it from reliable sources. Our only purpose with this RfC is to decide if the hate group label is substantially important enough for the lede. --
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and see how many of them mention the SPLC hate group designation. Probably very few. But that doesn't change the fact that they do have that label and that it's a prominent fact about them. It's just that the media is obviously not going to repeat it in every story they publish. Same would apply to
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Don't need to, nor does WP allow it to be done that way. But I believe that pretty soon all those articles will include it in the lead. My last check was that 10 of 15 have it in the lede. But whether it's nine or 10, it makes the point that it's not only important, but it's lead-worthy important.
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policy without explaining why that particular policy supports your position is poor form especially when the same "argument" could be said by those in direct opposition to you. The designation as a hate group by the SPLC is already in the article, and from the history the material attempted to be
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SPLC designating any organzation as a hate group is, IMO, definitely worthy of inclusion in the lede. That in itself is a substantial fact about any group that has received that tag. Ledes are not limited solely to content about what the subject is "primarily known" for; only that the content is
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inclusion. I don't see the above inconsistency as a problem. The thing is, these organizations are all different. Some of them have the anti-gay platform as their main agenda, others do not. So, they ought to be taken on a case by case basis. Also, some of the listings have been widely reported,
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I can actually see Nathan's point about redundancy in such a short article. I have made some adjustments moving some secondary content from the lead to the body, and the hate group listing to lead where it properly belongs. The hate group listing in important, but does not require signigficant
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If you (76.189.108.102) want one RfC to apply to all of the articles, write it as a single RfC, covering all the articles, including those with an individual RfC already completed or in progress. But don't be surprised if the consensus overrides the previously established consensus at AFA. —
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A subject doesn't have to be primarily known for something for that something to be lede-worthy. It simply has to be a significant enough fact about the subject to warrant placement there. The majority of news stories about organizations designated as hate groups are not necessarily going to
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The vast majority you speak of was nine out of fifteen just a few days ago. But no - that was not the consensus of the AFA RfC. Because, for example, the FRC RfC didn't have anywhere near the same consensus. Anyway, I agree with Avanu - the designation has had minimal impact,
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I assume
Insomesia simply meant "we" as in the collective group of editors who are interested in editing these articles. He can correct me if I'm wrong. As I hear others say a lot, assume good faith. And if you have a concern, discuss it with him on his talk page.
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And the AFA RfC did indeed have overwhelming consenus. I believe it was 29-4 saying it should be in the lede. But of course the consensus was not based on counting "votes" but rather on the arguments presented in those 29 supports vs. the four opposes. Editors can
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I would dispute the claim that the SPLC listing is the most notable thing about the group. I've had a look at Google Books, and had quite a few results, including material published this year. I have added a couple of references, and will be adding some more.
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The result was a flippant article is too short. I believe there is equally no consensus to bury what seems to be the most notable thing about this group either. Since you and
Belchfire are prone to revert warring it makes sense to try to see what reliable and
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Arthur Rubin, below is the proof showing the 9 of 15, which was previously provided. If you want to inject semantics about leads, that's fine. Editors can look at the 15 articles for themselves and see how and where the hate group reference is included.
2332:. I think its reasonoable to include such information given that the rhetoric of this organization has been labelled as such by many neutral sources. There are similar organizations that get the same label, even from outside the anti-LGBT scope.
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I think moving this notable fact to the last sentence after everything else about the
Christian hate group is disingenuous. Can the editors who have moved this to the end of the article explain the change or would another RfC be best?
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RfC; even if the answers could reasonably be different. I'll have to check your alleged 9 or 10 which have the link, to see whether they should have it. If I don't think so, I'll bring a joint RfC, so you can see how it's done. —
1120:, many, as you acknowledged, with different missions. All that matters is that each of them is designated as a hate group by the SPLC, which is a fact not in dispute. So, for this discussion, it does not matter
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I seriously hope your not trying to defend leaving out anything from the lead of an article that every news organization doesn't include. They often don't even use the same three-to-four-word descriptors.
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I recall reading another discussion where it was asked whether an RfC could be done for all of them at once. An admin said no. But if you are able to do it, I'm sure many editors will welcome it. --
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We look at the due weight of sources about this group, and
American Vision has been specifically labelled a hate group by the SPLC. This is notable criticism and must be included in the lead per
915:, etc. - and applies it to American Vision. No, American Vision was included because they support capital punishment for practising homosexuality. Of course, they support capital punishment for
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added to the lead is the same as the current text which is overly redundant in such a stubby article. There is no consensus to include the material in the lead at this time. Trouts all around. -
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Exactly, turning this into a soapbox for a hate group seems like a very bad idea. Be upfront that they are a hate group even if we aren't able to scrub together much else about this group.
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Pointing out that you are wrong isn't uncivil, nor does claiming that a number of other people share your self-serving opinion make it any closer to being true. Just sayin'.
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based on "their propagation of known falsehoods — claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities." Should this be included in the
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and warranted. Their data is used by many law enforcement agencies, educational institutions and media. It should be in the lede of all of those articles. --
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for themselves. Btw, I highly doubt that AV considers the hate group designation to be of "minimal impact." But, again, it's not our job to judge impact. --
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refer to them as a SPLC-listed hate group - that is evidently not what they're known for. The listing is not as notable/significant as that of the FRC.
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that allows it to be a part of the lead. Something can hardly be called significant if you can't show how it impacts the subject of the article. --
941:: I don't consider SPLC to be a neutral party. They label many conservative organizations "hate groups". I don't think it should be in the lead. –
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https://web.archive.org/web/20101129185413/http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/the-hard-liners
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a political organization. This RfC makes a different claim, one that is actually false, and it's already been pointed out. I hope that helps.
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all that matters. The reason is important, along with the publicity the listing has received, and the fact of whether or not the organization is
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As I clearly stated, it was your "gormless" comment that was uncivil. And now your "self-serving" comment is also not civil. You were already
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and other hate groups. This RfC is part of a move to make
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The church is widely described as a hate group and is monitored as such by the Anti-Defamation League and
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Not true. Just receiving this designation is not a big deal in its own right unless you can show proof that it has some impact. --
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on
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Huh? No matter how I add it up, there seems to be a strong consensus for including it in the lead. What's going on here?
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Great, thanks StillStanding. Arthur Rubin, editors can read those articles and see for themselves what's going on. --
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Of course, the onus is on you to source the statement. I have no idea why you've proposed unsourced claim like this.
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We've already determined that being designed a hate group by the SPLC is a big deal. That's why it's mentioned for
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twice last month and I really don't want to see you get blocked again for behaving inappropriately. Thank you. --
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label them as hate groups. The only issue here is whether or not that fact is worthy of inclusion in the lede. --
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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a lead. That makes it 3 of 9, rather than 9 of 15, which have the "hate group" designation in the lead. —
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suspicious of the word "we" here. I wish you'd stop using it. It makes me think there is a big conspiracy.
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for being listed as a hate group - these are all things to consider in determining inclusion in the lead.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
2632:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
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sources state. We can, of course, get the Reliable Sources Noticeboard to help us reach a decision.
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By the way, where does the title of this thread come from? The result of the RfC was that there was
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http://splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/the-hard-liners
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I disagree, what others say about a group is more important than what the group says about itself.
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labeled a hate group by the SPLC, which is not in dispute, is lead-worthy. The vast majority of
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Are you suggesting it is disingenuous to italicise "no" without also italicising "consensus"?
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coverage in such a short article, so it's best to concisely summarize it in the lead. –
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Based on the false statments given by the originator, this RfC should fail by default.
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As to whether it is "important" that the SPLC labels an organization a hate group, the
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guidelines, the rest of the articles will be fixed in due time, we are not in a rush.
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Yes, I don't understand this "We've already determined" bit. How did we determine it?
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Hate group designation should be in the lead paragraph as was discussed previously
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a Christian nonprofit formed to "restore America to its biblical foundation,"...
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You're point makes my argument, if they exist the most notable thing about them
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Belchfire, let's be fair and consistent. You were the originator of
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Have a lede, but do not have the SPLC hate label in the lede.
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consensus for the hate group designation to be in the lead.
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Do not have a lede, but have the hate label in the article:
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most news stories, for example, about KKK-related groups. --
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Thanks. We'll get working on fixing all of these articles.
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Have a lede, but do not have the SPLC hate label anywhere.
1536:: Interestingly, American Vision is in the news right now.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This request for comment has been closed with the result:
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These 6 do not include the SLPC hate label in the lede:
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describes them in terms of their own mission statement:
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These 6 do not include the SLPC hate label in the lede:
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RfC Should SPLC "hate group" designation be in the lead?
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See below; your "count" is incorrect. Only 3 of the 9
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thing notable about the group, then the article fails
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the SPLC labels them as hate groups; only that they
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1279:. I wasn't going to make that claim, but.... —
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708:and see a list of open tasks.
494:and see a list of open tasks.
408:and see a list of open tasks.
327:This article is supported by
307:This article is supported by
283:This article is supported by
263:This article is supported by
246:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy
243:This article is supported by
219:This article is supported by
135:and see a list of open tasks.
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1145:
1141:
1140:
1139:
1135:
1131:
1127:
1123:
1119:
1115:
1113:
1112:
1111:
1110:
1109:
1108:
1105:
1101:
1097:
1094:
1093:
1087:
1084:
1083:
1082:
1081:
1077:
1073:
1065:
1062:
1060:
1057:
1055:
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1050:
1047:
1045:
1042:
1040:
1037:
1036:
1035:
1030:
1027:
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1017:
1015:
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1010:
1007:
1005:
1002:
1000:
997:
995:
992:
990:
987:
986:
985:
979:
975:
972:
968:
964:
960:
955:
954:
953:
950:
949:
946:
945:
940:
937:
935:
931:
927:
924:
923:
918:
914:
910:
906:
903:
902:
901:
900:
896:
892:
888:
884:
880:
876:
870:
859:
855:
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846:
842:
838:
834:
830:
819:
811:
806:
801:
800:
786:
785:
778:
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774:
771:
770:
766:
761:
756:
755:
752:
737:
731:
728:
727:
724:
707:
703:
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693:
690:
686:
685:
681:
678:
675:
672:
668:
655:
651:
645:
642:
641:
638:
625:United States
619:
616:
614:
611:
609:
606:
604:
603:
599:
597:
594:
593:
590:
586:
585:
577:
566:
564:
561:
557:
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545:United States
543:
540:
536:
523:
517:
514:
513:
510:
497:Organizations
493:
489:
488:Organizations
485:
484:
479:
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472:
471:
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463:Organizations
461:
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403:
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379:
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359:
356:
353:
349:
332:
331:
321:
317:
316:
312:
311:
301:
297:
296:
292:
289:(assessed as
288:
287:
277:
273:
272:
268:
267:
257:
253:
252:
248:
247:
237:
233:
232:
228:
225:(assessed as
224:
223:
215:
209:
204:
197:
193:
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182:
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176:
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164:
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134:
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117:
111:
106:
104:
101:
97:
96:
92:
85:
81:
77:
73:
69:
65:
60:
57:
54:
50:
45:
41:
35:
27:
23:
18:
17:
2708:
2705:
2680:source check
2659:
2653:
2650:
2623:
2620:
2595:
2575:
2553:
2548:no concensus
2547:
2543:
2541:
2540:
2519:
2499:
2480:
2475:
2446:
2426:
2421:
2403:
2372:
2361:
2329:
2285:
2260:
2175:
2170:
2086:Arthur Rubin
2083:
2073:
2043:
2037:
2027:
2007:
1976:
1973:
1959:
1924:
1874:
1870:
1833:Arthur Rubin
1828:
1817:Arthur Rubin
1811:
1781:Arthur Rubin
1761:
1756:
1714:
1682:Ku Klux Klan
1663:
1646:
1627:
1622:
1614:
1556:
1551:
1547:
1543:Mother Jones
1541:
1538:This article
1533:
1512:
1443:
1428:
1395:
1380:
1375:
1335:
1320:
1315:
1292:
1281:Arthur Rubin
1266:
1248:
1244:
1233:Arthur Rubin
1228:
1224:
1152:
1147:
1143:
1125:
1121:
1091:
1085:
1068:
1033:
983:
973:
947:
942:
938:
921:
916:
904:
873:
864:
828:
804:
764:
751:
695:
649:
613:Project Talk
601:
582:
481:
435:
411:Conservatism
402:conservatism
395:
358:Conservatism
328:
308:
284:
264:
244:
220:
162:
138:Christianity
129:Christianity
122:
59:Christianity
40:WikiProjects
2596:GimliDotNet
2554:GimliDotNet
2447:GimliDotNet
2321:) has made
84:Charismatic
76:Anglicanism
72:Oriental O.
64:Catholicism
30:Start-class
2730:Categories
2717:Report bug
883:hate group
68:Eastern O.
2700:this tool
2693:this tool
2504:Insomesia
2458:Insomesia
2407:Insomesia
2294:WP:WEIGHT
2273:Scientiom
2269:WP:WEIGHT
2149:Insomesia
1858:Insomesia
1600:Insomesia
1492:Insomesia
1297:Insomesia
1253:Insomesia
1208:Insomesia
959:Insomesia
891:Insomesia
837:WP:WEIGHT
777:Archive 1
2706:Cheers.—
2369:Response
2319:contribs
1856:itself.
1619:StAnselm
1410:WP:CIVIL
1354:this RfC
805:180 days
765:Archives
711:Abortion
702:Abortion
677:Abortion
2630:my edit
2330:Include
2290:WP:LEAD
2286:Include
2265:WP:LEAD
2261:Include
2145:WP:Lead
1615:Exclude
1534:Comment
1225:Exclude
1204:WP:Lead
974:Include
939:Comment
905:Comment
887:WP:Lead
833:WP:LEAD
652:on the
438:on the
165:on the
80:Baptist
2580:Anselm
2524:Anselm
2485:Anselm
2431:Anselm
2296:. TTs
2292:&
2267:&
2180:Anselm
2089:(talk)
1836:(talk)
1820:(talk)
1812:single
1784:(talk)
1766:Anselm
1757:unlike
1719:Anselm
1617:, per
1561:Anselm
1517:Anselm
1316:Oppose
1284:(talk)
1274:db-inc
1236:(talk)
1157:Anselm
1096:Anselm
1086:Oppose
926:Anselm
845:WP:Per
618:Alerts
36:scale.
2238:Avanu
1700:Avanu
1667:Avanu
1552:don't
1540:from
1431:Belch
1383:Belch
1323:Belch
881:as a
2584:talk
2528:talk
2508:talk
2489:talk
2462:talk
2435:talk
2422:then
2411:talk
2379:talk
2351:talk
2340:talk
2315:talk
2302:talk
2288:per
2277:talk
2271:. --
2263:per
2242:talk
2211:talk
2184:talk
2171:very
2153:talk
2127:talk
2105:talk
1966:talk
1862:talk
1829:have
1802:talk
1770:talk
1746:talk
1723:talk
1704:talk
1690:talk
1671:talk
1655:talk
1621:. –
1604:talk
1589:talk
1565:talk
1521:talk
1496:talk
1464:talk
1444:TALK
1434:fire
1418:talk
1396:TALK
1386:fire
1366:talk
1336:TALK
1326:fire
1301:talk
1293:must
1267:only
1257:talk
1245:only
1229:that
1212:talk
1180:talk
1161:talk
1134:talk
1100:talk
1076:talk
963:talk
930:talk
895:talk
854:talk
835:and
2674:RfC
2644:to
2391:MrX
2035:.
1356:in
1249:has
1144:not
1122:why
917:all
730:???
644:Low
516:???
430:Low
157:Low
2732::
2687:.
2682:}}
2678:{{
2586:)
2576:St
2550:.
2544:no
2530:)
2520:St
2510:)
2491:)
2481:St
2476:no
2464:)
2437:)
2427:St
2413:)
2381:)
2317:•
2309:—
2304:)
2279:)
2244:)
2213:)
2205:--
2186:)
2176:St
2155:)
2129:)
2107:)
2084:—
1968:)
1864:)
1804:)
1772:)
1762:St
1748:)
1725:)
1715:St
1706:)
1692:)
1673:)
1657:)
1606:)
1591:)
1567:)
1557:St
1523:)
1513:St
1498:)
1466:)
1420:)
1376:is
1368:)
1303:)
1277:}}
1271:{{
1259:)
1214:)
1206:.
1182:)
1163:)
1153:St
1136:)
1126:do
1102:)
1092:St
1078:)
965:)
932:)
922:St
911:,
897:)
856:)
293:).
229:).
184:/
82:/
78:/
74:/
70:/
66:/
62::
2719:)
2715:(
2702:.
2695:.
2582:(
2526:(
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2487:(
2460:(
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1074:(
961:(
928:(
893:(
852:(
738:.
656:.
524:.
442:.
333:.
313:.
269:.
249:.
169:.
42::
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