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1502:
Looking at the article on the Greek
Orthodox Archdiocese, they could have a diocese in Birmingham. You also have the Lutherans, although looking at their articles they may not have bishops in Britain. This is the completely unnecessary investigation which we would have to get into if we abandon the
1431:
Upon further consideration, while I now see a logic to the proposal, I still believe the change unnecessary and of little, if any benefit. The page titles are already disambiguated and the relevant disambiguation pages are better presented as they are now (with the denominations the first word in the
1416:
Looked into this further and finally see what you're getting at. I thought that because all the Roman
Catholic diocese had "Roman Catholic" in their page titles that it naturally followed that all the Anglican diocese had "Anglican" in their titles; the only Anglican ones I'd looked at were the three
1122:
The dioceses I've listed in the move request share a name with another diocese, but not a location. In my opinion it therefore makes more sense to disambiguate by location than by denomination, as the former is the main distinguishing factor. The current titles could imply, for example, that there is
1085:
Dioceses are units of a church hierarchy. They have geographic jurisdictions, but it is not confined to a town stated in the title, e.g. the Bishop of Ely is the bishop of
Cambridgeshire and spends most of his time in Cambridge. But it is still called the "Diocese of Ely". In the Anglican hierarchy,
1056:
I am afraid I don't agree. These are church structures. Denomination is the important distinguisher. Geography is not relevant. This is not about the geographic location of a church, it is about a unit in church hierarchy. There's only one Roman
Catholic Diocese of Manchester, and there's only one
1457:
Keep It Simple Stupid. The proposal appears to be that this new naming convention should apply to
Anglican Dioceses where there is no corresponding RC diocese of the same name. This is unnecessarily complicating matters, the titles of Anglican diocese varying for reasons which have nothing to do
1153:). Every Catholic diocese article already starts with "Roman Catholic diocese of....", and Anglican diocese articles, when disambiguation is needed, start with "Anglican diocese of ...". Disambiguation by denomination is the right way to go, and sufficient. A hatnote can be added if needed.
1005:
The
Anglican Diocese of Liverpool and the Roman Catholic Diocese of Liverpool are both based in Liverpool, UK, so disambiguation by denomination is appropriate. Conversely, the Anglican Diocese of Manchester is located in Manchester, UK and the Roman Catholic Diocese of Manchester is located in
808:
The current titles imply that there are dioceses of other denominations based in these three
English cities, when in reality only the Church of England dioceses are based there. Disambiguating by location rather than Christian denomination makes this clearer. It should be contrasted with, for
1472:
The proposal isn't inherently linked to Roman
Catholic dioceses. However, I believe the Church of England and Roman Catholic Church are the only major denominations which divide England into dioceses, so the article about their dioceses are the most likely to need disambiguating from each
1244:. Not immediately seeing why one would imply there's a Roman Catholic Diocese of Manchester. Is it the hatnote that's making the implication? If it is, then there's a case for the hatnote's removal. I don't see an obvious need for it anyway. It's not on the Peterborough article.
784:
The rationale for these moves is the same as that given in the request above, but expanded to include the articles of all Church of
England dioceses in the same position. The current names of these articles disambiguate them from dioceses in other countries, namely the:
1387:
readers/editors will be led to believe a
Catholic diocese exists with the same name as the Anglican diocese for the above named places. I question this because it doesn't seem obvious this is so. Also, the renaming would lead to inconsistent article titles.
1202:
I appreciate you for engaging in discussion, and I'm increasingly conscious that it's not my role to persuade you to change your opinion. We've both laid out our case in a way which should be helpful to the closing editor, so shall we leave it here?
1314:
Personally I don't think disambiguation is needed, but there's a fairly strong convention of using 'Roman Catholic Diocese of ' even when a diocese doesn't need disambiguating. Discussing that is really beyond the scope of this move request.
955:
Moving to 'Diocese of Manchester (Church of England)' would still imply that there are other dioceses named 'Diocese of Manchester' in Manchester, UK, which isn't the case. Disambiguating by location rather than denomination solves this
959:
As I understand it there's a convention that Roman Catholic diocese articles are titled 'Roman Catholic diocese of...' even when disambiguation by denomination isn't needed. This move request can't address that convention.
1006:
Manchester, New Hampshire. This makes geographic disambiguation more appropriate, as we are disambiguating two dioceses with the same name in different cities, not two dioceses with the same name located in the same city.
659:, I guess oppose as proposed, if there are other articles, best propose them together for wider consistency and make a larger discussion on how to disambiguate these dioceses. They are complex, so does need sorting out.
625:
I believe three other dioceses fall into the same category as Manchester, that is having the same name as a diocese in another country, and in each case I'd support disambiguation by country rather than denomination:
941:. I'm not sure whether I agree they should be moved or not, but if they are then it should be to Diocese of Foo (Church of England). And the North American ones should be moved too for absolute unambiguity. --
1071:
Dioceses are geographic church structures. There's only one diocese in Manchester, UK, and only one diocese in Manchester, USA, so the denomination doesn't need to be specified but the location does.
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1188:
The point is that the geography is often irrelevant. These are proper names as assigned and used by the church hierarchy. The natural way to disambiguate would be by denomination, not country.
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1086:
there's only one Diocese of Manchester. In the Catholic hierarchy, there's only one Diocese of Manchester. By the way, there is a Catholic Diocese in Manchester UK, it is called the "
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I've opted for 'Manchester (United Kingdom)' over 'Manchester, United Kingdom' as although the name of the diocese includes 'Manchester' it's an organisation rather than a place name.
1417:
examples in the nomination! I now see this not to be the case; a predominance is given to the Anglicans as the primary topic for the diosese. I'll take a renewed look shortly.
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The underlying justification is that these are ultimately geographic disambiguations rather than denominational ones, but I've been through that above so I won't bore you.
511:, which is located in New Hampshire, USA. My concern is that the current title implies that there is a Roman Catholic diocese of Manchester in the UK, when in reality the
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Anglican Diocese of Manchester. If there was a Catholic Diocese in Manchester (UK), then it would need the geographical distinction. But until then, it doesn't.
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could therefore imply the existence of a Roman Catholic diocese to someone familiar with that convention (the actual RC diocese covering Manchester is
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Geography is more important in these instances, as the dioceses are not located in the same city. The current disambiguation doesn't make this clear.
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covers the city. Disambiguating by location rather than Christian denomination makes it clearer that only one UK diocese is named after Manchester.
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I am afraid I have to disagree. Dioceses are proper names, not geographical descriptions. We also don't specify "London, Ontario" in the title of
1119:
For Knowledge's purposes both of your examples are already disambiguated, as although those dioceses serve similar areas they have different names.
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I'm sorry, but I don't really see what dioceses named after 'murky things' or Catholic titular sees have to do with this specific move request.
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The convention on Knowledge is disambiguate two dioceses with the same or similar names in the same city by their denomination, e.g. the
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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disambiguated by denomination it could be argued that Anglican dioceses don't need to be disambiguated at all, but that raises
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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As far as I'm aware the various Eastern Orthodox churches have single dioceses which cover Great Britain, for example the
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Given no 'support' comments have been made I'll withdraw this request and re-open it including the other three dioceses.
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The reason I didn't open four move requests at once is that it can be unhelpful, but consistency is the eventual goal.
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dioceses in Manchester UK: the Anglican "Diocese of Manchester" and the Catholic "Diocese of Salford". And there are
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with the C of E. Also, what about the Greek Orthodox church and other churches which may have bishops in Britain?
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to fit with all the other dioceses. If this page is moved to a parenthetical disambiguator, it should be moved to
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No supporting comments, will re-open as a multiple move request including other dioceses metioned in discussion
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dioceses in Manchester, USA: the Anglican "Diocese of New Hampshire" and the Catholic "Diocese of Manchester".
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On a related note, where two RC dioceses have the same name they seem to be disambig'd by location, e.g. the
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1383:. Not convinced the change is necessary. The case for the article renaming seems to rest on an assumption
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860:, also based in the English city, as well as the Roman Catholic diocese in Alabama I haven't included it.
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I'm ambivalent as to whether the disambiguation should be to (United Kingdom) or (England); either works.
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Either "England" or "United Kingdom" works, and I can't say I have a very strong preference either way.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Why does geography matter? It seems denominational difference is of greater importance.
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There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at
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Clear consensus that the current natural disambiguation is more appropriate
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1349:. In some cases I think "...in " is part of the formal name and therefore
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exists. It’s really just a question of checking the disambiguation page.
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a Roman Catholic Diocese of Peterborough in the UK, when there isn't.
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Similarly, is there a problem with implying an Anglican diocese from
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Russian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Western Europe
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1436:) than would be the case if the proposed move went ahead.
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so that it is at least consistent with one other article.
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Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain
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On 5 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be
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507:– The article's current name disambiguates it from the
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questions. (Bet you're glad you gave an opinion, eh?)
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The proposal uses parenthetical disambiguation (see
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Talk:Anglican Diocese of Birmingham - Requested move
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101:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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Serbian Orthodox Eparchy of Britain and Scandinavia
1521:isn’t part of this move request, in part because
438:and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —
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1347:Roman Catholic Diocese of Victoria in Canada
1343:Roman Catholic Diocese of Victoria in Texas
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552:– I'd prefer "England" as it is the
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311:This article is within the scope of
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95:This article is within the scope of
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1149:), and many simply exist on paper (
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38:It is of interest to the following
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331:Knowledge:WikiProject Christianity
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1546:The discussion above is closed.
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694:The discussion above is closed.
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373:This article is supported by
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115:Knowledge:WikiProject England
109:and see a list of open tasks.
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837:– robertsky
722:move review
657:Weak oppose
467:move review
274:Anglicanism
30:Start-class
1558:Categories
1484:, and the
1351:WP:NATURAL
943:Necrothesp
833:Relisting.
731:not moved.
531:Relisting.
476:Not moved.
1190:Walrasiad
1155:Walrasiad
1107:Walrasiad
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1030:Walrasiad
993:Walrasiad
809:example,
421:not moved
1527:A.D.Hope
1490:A.D.Hope
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1317:A.D.Hope
1284:A.D.Hope
1270:and the
1266:and the
1262:and the
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1176:A.D.Hope
1169:WP:NCDAB
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962:A.D.Hope
956:problem.
862:A.D.Hope
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679:A.D.Hope
642:A.D.Hope
580:A.D.Hope
520:A.D.Hope
487:A.D.Hope
1438:Rupples
1419:Rupples
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1280:Salford
1246:Rupples
1242:Comment
1141:or the
939:Comment
550:Comment
355:on the
244:on the
139:on the
112:England
103:England
59:England
1480:, the
1473:other.
1455:Oppose
1381:Oppose
1358:always
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977:Oppose
917:Note:
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877:Note:
597:Oppose
440:RM bot
36:scale.
409:moved
1531:talk
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854:Note
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663:Dank
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564:Dank
539:talk
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419:was
1282:).
1103:two
1099:two
668:Jae
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347:Low
236:Mid
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