Talk:Aaron Schock/Archive 1

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been happily cavorting in a shower in Washington, etc, which is one of the allegations made, is also irrelevant to the issue as it pertains to Knowledge. What IS relevant is that this media storm is fact, is happening, and has generated more nationwide articles and public comment over the past few days than anything else in the congressman has done in his career! It has gone far beyond gossip to a situation which, by the implication that he is comfortable with lying (he has issued specific denials multiple times, and that and his possible hypocrisy -- rather than homosexuality itself --, is the crux of the matter), has potentially threatened his political career, and certainly cast a shadow over it. So the reality of this justifies its inclusion in his entry. To deny this due to personal opinion and attempt to practice Knowledge "censorship by absence" is unsupportable. Therefore, census needs to be reached on how the article will address it. You therefore need to specifically address the wording of the proposed revision itself, and if any fact within it is you find incorrect, suggest a different wording. But 'personal offense' can't come into it.

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does trying to square the circle and slicing and dicing Knowledge's acronymed legislation - which as I've said before, is hopelessly open to personal interpretation, and can used to justify or squash anything. Consequently, anything controversial gets nowhere. THIS will get nowhere. How could it, when even Jimmy God Wales pipes up on McGrery's Talk page to say (with regard to an endlessly fought over inclusion on his sexuality: "I like the way it reads now, because a reader is very likely to come away with a balanced view of what happened here. At the same time, I still question whether any of this manages to pass WP:UNDUE. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:46, 26 June 2011 (UTC)" Guess what. It hasn't been included. Copout or simple editorial exhaustion? Probably both. I believe the mainstream press could print the allegation about Schock's sexuality all day every day, but even mention of such a phenomenon would STILL not be allowed in the article until he confirmed it in the national media, or a rentboy did. So all the effort is wasted labour. Oh: and to the self-loathers here against the outing of those vote against equal rights: you should view

485:"I am going to revert this addition" Oh quelle surprise. WP:WELLKNOWN. "If an allegation or incident is noteteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article — even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." Well, given the allegation has come up in the media with the frequency of herpes or closeted Republicans being outed, and given the subject's opposition to homosexual equality, the allegation seems dazzlingly relevant. Both Gawker and the Huffington Post not valid? Both have broken significant stories and, given their valuations alone, must be considered major media enterprises in a time when newspapers will be soon digital only. " A Tweet by Schock does not seem notable." Oh honey. That did make me laugh. Nice try. Treat yourself to another glass of Johnnie. I'll update the entry, but it ain't gonna change the meme tsunami given Mr Google's relentless indexing of the association of the Senator with 'The Gay Thing' -- forgive me, I believe that's the terminology employed by hypocritical Republicans caught with their pants down, is it not? 3234:) As to the relevance of its inclusion: is it notable? The issue of his possible homosexuality per se would be completely and utterly irrelevant, were it not for his anti-gay voting record. The possibility of the hypocrisy of a public official whose actions impact on tens of thousands of lives is therefore why he has been bedevilled on the issue on the web and in social media – which is now the same in its cultural impact to print, radio and television. Indeed, he himself employs social media avidly to push his public profile, and at the height of the Itay Hod stories switched his Instagram account to private. Also, for better or for worse, Schock has become what might be said to be the poster boy for current discussion of the issue of the rights and wrongs of outing. For all these reasons, at least a brief mention of the issue is relevant and its complete absence from the current entry creates an information hole where there shouldn't be one, and makes the entry read like a PR release from his office. 675:"the person taking strong cut against gay rights being accused of being gay himself is something worth mention." Precisely. Of course it is. Which is why I shall post a revision with impeccable dead tree sources for "Champaign Supernova" aka Aaron/his mom/BBF/hard-labouring staff mole/whoever. And how illuminating this was to research. Google brings up 273,000 results for "aaron schock" + gay, but a truly astonishing and sobering 651,000 results for "aaron schock" + hypocrite. Quite an achievement for someone who is only in their early 30s. For the sake of neutrality I'd suggest that the Grand Canyon between this indexed reality and the entry, which reads like a PR release, needs to be closed somewhat, and warmly encourage others to do so. Which of course will only result in more midnight labour and carefully constructed prevarications for Champaign. Unfortunately with those mounting Google stats it's rather like trying to suck out a tsunami with a straw. 2281:

of him by a Chicago newspaper, requiring Schlock to state a rebuttal) and (b) the widespread discussion they've again provoked on the legitimacy of outing ANY politician who activity works against homosexual equality, should they indeed prove to be homosexual and therefore a hypocrite. And that is what is detailed in the proposed entry. The disputed Washington Post link is a news opinion piece published under the Washington Post banner which would be subject to the same editorial review as material published by the paper and is used here to confirm the previous sentence which refers to 'online discussion about the practice of 'outing' and the obligations of the Media to expose hypocrisy should such rumors be true.' Which it does. I include the full text of the post and references below for anyone new coming in to this discussion. A **3 MONTH** Freeze? Now that made me laugh.

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notable or academically diligent. I wouldn't cite any of these sources in a college paper, so they shouldn't be on Knowledge. This is not a place for calling out hypocrisy or providing political insight. It is an encyclopedia. Rumors about living people do not belong in an encyclopedia, period. If these allegations remain, unproven, well past Shock's death, to the point where they represent a notable facet of how his term in office is characterized in retrospect, then they may be included, and there will certainly be reliable sources to cite at that time. For now, my personal impression is that including rumors like this compromises your academic integrity, which in turn makes the statements about his undeniable discriminatory anti-LGBT voting record appear potentially biased and less meaningful. Finally, I think it merits saying that

468:. It is unencylopedic to include information about gay rumors. These rumors are not, per policy, "noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented." The Huffington Post article repeatedly references Gawker, a gossip blog, which hardly seems a reliable source. There are no major newspapers/reliable sources that are cited in the Huffington Post article (Gawker, Wonkette, and TMZ, etc. are not reliable sources). A Tweet by Schock does not seem notable. The last sentence of the added paragraph has nothing to do with the rest of the paragraph, and it is loaded as well. "Further allegations of hypocrisy...." If anything, that sentence can go under political positions, and it should be noted that the source of the accusation of hypocrisy is Rachel Maddow. 774:. It appears you are taking a quote by Schock ("social issues are not what compelled me to run for office") from one source, adding polling information about openly gay service members from another source (a source that does not mention or otherwise involve Schock, the article's subject), and using the combination of these sources to advance a position that Schock's opposition to Don't Ask Don't Tell is incongruous with his previous statements. If Schock's original statement had included information about DADT, that would be fair. As it is, this addition is violating the SYNTH and NPOV policies, and is being used as a coatrack to advance positions about DADT. The "even though a vast majority...." bit is NPOV as well, and is 264:, so I have added that information to this article. I believe the US Congress directory is a very reliable source, and as Schock has been a member of Congress for two terms now, errors in alma mater or dates would likely have been corrected by now. The problem is that media sources and Schock's own websites say that he attended Bradley, but do not mention the community college. Some of these sources directly state that he did all of his college in two years, earning a four year degree in just two years of study. Interestingly, other sources do not explicitly make the the claim but clearly hint or infer it: 805:. Legislators vote on 100s of bills each year. To include information about a particular of a bill on a particular legislator's page, there should be a compelling reason. Was this particular bill a touchstone of their campaign? Did they sponsor it or heavily advocate for or against it in public? The article can't and shouldn't include a description of each and every bill that each representative has voted on (that's what Project Vote Smart is for). So unless there's evidence about why including information about a particular bill is important, it's apt to violate WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. 1395: 456:

Marriage Act. Yet he has felt compelled to repeatedly deny that he is a closeted homosexual in the face of persistent rumors, which have repeatedly flared up in the media since he assumed office. When online magazine Gawker published a photo of him wearing a colorful outfit which it suggested was "jamming up the gay staff listserve" of Capitol Hill, Schock went so far as to publicly announce that he had burned its belt. Further accusations of hypocrisy include him complaining about a spending bill in public while touting its advantages in his home district."

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emphasis than is due. Reasonable editors should be allowed to work this out without the constraints of talk page consensus which can be, and in these subject areas, is, easily disrupted, some might say purposefully. Allowing regular editing would allow consensus to build on its own with obvious disruptive editors having to account for their edits. It would also help keep all potential editors focussed only on improving the article rather than swaying an argument. In other cases I've seen the full protection is only for a few days.

1817:. Whenever someone promotes a controversial opinion, especially about personal behavior, it's common for this "irony" gossip like this to spring up as a response. This sort of coat-tail gossip is probably as old as civilization. In Schock's case, even the gossip itself is laughably insubstantial on its face: It's always basically "he cares about fitness and once wore a pastel shirt, so until he marries someone, I've declared him gay". That train of thought says more about the gossipers than about Schock. 3025:, to allow an additional religious exemption from such requirements for individuals whose sincerely held religious beliefs would cause them to object to medical health care provided under such coverage. Individuals could file an affidavit to get this exemption, but would lose the exemption if they went on to later use healthcare. Schock and Keating wrote a letter in support of their bill saying, "we believe the EACH Act balances a respect for religious diversity against the need to prevent fraud and abuse." 647:, which requires quite a bit of personal judgment. While Knowledge's mission is definitely not in bursting rumors, the person taking strong cut against gay rights being accused of being gay himself is something worth mention. That said, nearly every public person, specifically in politics and show business, is sometimes called gay, and the more they deny it the more tabloids insist on it. Thus I believe that this information should be included, but only with citations to mainstream reputable news media. 508:

of these rumors, which you don't see published in the New York Times. Gawker is a self-described celebrity gossip site. Hardly a sufficient reference for contentious material about a living person. To clarify my position on the Tweet, the Tweet is about a belt. Presumably a belt that was a part of his outfit? It's unclear, and I don't think a 140 character opinion on fashion (presumably) is notable. Knowledge is a verifiable, fact-based encyclopedia, not a rumor mill or

31: 573:, and note that "Knowledge is not for scandal mongering, promoting things "heard through the grapevine" or gossiping. Articles and content about living people are required to meet an especially high standard, as they may otherwise be libelous or infringe the subjects' right to privacy." It's also not for airing your personal grievances against an article's subject in order to attempt to influence search engine results. Please also 2978: 1268: 625: 359:

school despite the refusal of the school board to allow him to graduate early, that he drove to the H.S. for phy ed and band each morning for one year, and graduated from H.S. in 2000 --all of which, of course, means that he attended college classes beginning in 1999, consistent with the Biographical Directory that puts him at Central Illinois College beginning in 1999.

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which Schock answered that it had already been answered long ago, and walked away. Now it's an 8-paragraph article on HuffPo, rehashing every pseudo-journalist article that ever happened, followed by a repeat of the opening teaser and then convenient links to the author's own version of the content and a slideshow of "other public figures who have faced gay rumors". A

1826:, it wouldn't make the previous gossip turn legitimate. Also, where are the high-quality sources about this being a big deal? It won't be good enough to say that these claims appeared in the kind of media sources that usually pass in uncontroversial Knowledge articles. Knowledge has a policy about supposedly "sourced" attention-grabbing claims of this kind — 1887:). But just as an entry, however balanced, that might be perceived as reflecting negatively on Reagan will always be quickly excised, so would this be. Knowledge articles on controversial public figures are always exercises in farce, and consistently become merely PR puff pieces for the individual's supporters. So the discussion here is almost redundant. 3870: 3047: 1682: 115: 3971: 1309:) and prohibited funding gay married couples, doesn't make him an opponent of gay marriage, does it? If not, then it should be amended to omit assumption and bad interpretation. Or let's find sources that proves his opposition. If so, then what about "gay marriage"? Should it be "same-sex marriage" or something? Either way, wikilink that to 3252: 595:"I'm trying to engage in a substantive, good faith discussion about the article's content." Bitch, please! Spare us the dissembling. Please read: WP:BULLSHITTING You have zero intention of allowing any reference to his denials of homosexuality (newsworthy given his voting record), even if they were referenced via Page 1 of The Times! 539:

before I posted, so I presumed the entry's lifespan would be short. But my real aim was to get the issue on the record in his Knowledge entry, both for Main (archive) and Talk pages, for search engine indexing. And that I've achieved. So, like that other opportunistic political player Macbeth, you/he have won. And lost.

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I found the time references in this section confusing. Those of us not in the USA will be unfamiliar with how the US school system works, so terms like "5th grade", "8th grade", "junior year of high school" are as meaningless to me as if I wrote about a Latvian politician doing something while he was

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What is to be solely judged is the relevance of the information, the phrasing of the suggested inclusion ("Despite his voting record which is discriminatory to homosexuals, Schock has been the subject of repeated rumours that he himself is homosexual.") and the news source, which is a reputable one.

3005:

Hi! I'd like to add the following information about a bill Schock introduced into the House that is scheduled for a floor vote today. Bills introduced by a specific congressperson are usually notable on that person's page because it indicates that s/he is highly interested in that topic. The proposed

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is still not noteworthy, however, the inevitable reactions may be, if he is recalled, censured or his career is measurably damaged. Even if it is decided that information about Shock's sexuality is noteworthy due to his perceived stance against LGBT rights, none of the cited articles are trustworthy,

2280:

You're completely missing the point. Whether Schock is gay is NOT the crux of the media storm that's bedeviling him. So the absence of 'gay proof' is utterly irrelevant. The storm is being driven by (a) the existence of the rumors themselves (which have at least once provoked the question to be asked

2091:

For any politician to be subject to the degree of public accusations of hypocrisy, as Schock repeatedly has, would be damaging. That's why it's significant to detailing his political career. And one of reasons the mainstream print media have finally addressed the story. As noted on this page there is

1878:

A Google search for "aaron schock" + gay now brings up 1,370,000 results. That indicates a massive disconnect between traditional print media and popular opinion/social media. Ignoring it is not a matter of ignoring the elephant in the room: it's a matter of doing justice to reality. True or not, the

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the 2010 Emmy-nominated documentary on closeted politicians, and checked their Knowledge entries and their Talk pages: Charlie Crist, Jim McCrery and David Dreier. Very interesting. Drier's article is the only one that mentions his sexuality, while the Talk pages of all three fluff around as this one

507:

Your colorful metaphors aside, my point is that gay rumors surrounding the article's subject are not sufficiently well-documented to warrant inclusion. My point about the Huffington Post article is that it is using Gawker, TMZ, and Wonkettte for sources. It's a feedback loop. Gawker is the provenance

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fashion, this story takes until the 6th paragraph to get to the nugget of actual information: The "author" is a guy who hosts a satellite radio show. At a Republican event, which the author doesn't even bother to give details of, he came up and "interviewed" Schock, asking Schock a sex question, to

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that Schock is gay - the "evidence" produced is actually based upon alleged correlation with outdated behavioral stereotypes of gay people. There are tons of gay people who don't look or act a thing like the societal stereotype of gay people being used here, and there are many straight people who do

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language, like maybe saying that it's "widespread speculation", does not make it turn noteworthy. By comparison: What about all the "gossip" from the last 20 years, that Hillary Clinton has testicles, since "obviously" there are indications from her personal appearance and behavior? Should that be

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repeal even though a majority of virtually all demographics and a vast majority of the United States support, then and now, repealing it. Even continuing now, Schock and a few other members are trying to add an amendment to the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act to rollback the repeal of Don't

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Your argument is false equivalency. And irrelevant. Your final sentence also employs one the most distasteful debate strategies: the attempt to suggest something is an anomaly, when it is not. i.e. "Stop abusing Knowledge to try to legitimize your own thoughts." Given the blizzard of stories on the

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Here's an example to compare this to: There have been rumors in the past that Obama wasn't born in the US (I don't believe these rumors). Even though these rumors became widespread and there were certainly news articles about these rumors, they don't belong in Obama's biography. I hope that helps

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How is it defamatory to report on the media reports that someone is gay? In fact, how would it be defamatory to report that someone is gay? According to Knowledge, "Defamation is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government,

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Include if significant coverage in reliable sources support it. Maybe those who think it should be included could point the way to reliable sources. If there are multiple sources talking about his sexuality, especially in light of his perceived hypocritical political stands, then something could be

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Just a note to end this hanging thread. A cite was provided on his religion and early years in MN some time ago. I followed up recently by doing more checking of cites and updating. Because his MN connection was disputed and is sourced to a newspaper article which is no longer available for free, I

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I agree that using an age is more meaningful to a broad audience and I would support changes, except as it pertains to his schooling. However, we only have what we are given and the source provides only his grade. Since his birthday is at the end of the school year, one could make some assumptions

3308:

Schock began working during the fifth grade, doing database management as an independent contractor for a bookstore chain. He later bought event tickets for a licensed ticket broker, using six phone lines and thirteen credit cards, and investing his earnings in the stock market. When he was in the

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You said it right, these are allegations, i.e. an accusation of wrongdoing without proof. If you have to qualify something as "unconfirmed allegations," it doesn't belong here. The only good references I've seen here are the ones that say that this is gossip. There's a reason the 'original source'

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I don't agree. Look at the Knowledge definition of defamation. It has two elements: (1) communication of a false statement, and (2) statement must harm the reputation. Both elements are required for the statement to be defamatory. A reference in the article to the widespread rumors and controversy

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Aaron Schock has long been the subject of rumors that he is a homosexual, but has categorically denied the assertion. In January 2014 the rumors again went viral following a Facebook posting by journalist Itay Hod. Given Schock's discriminatory voting record against homosexual people, it provoked

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a wide gap between WP:NOTGOSSIP and WP:WELLKNOWN, which requires careful editing. I note editor Closeapple posted above "Unless this gossip becomes big enough that it has become a repeat topic in multiple well-established, editorially-strict publications — like the main, for-the-record editions of

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I'm somewhat new to Knowledge so when I posted a similar paragraph before I accidentally copied/pasted a part about Schock's same-sex marriage opposition. I don't think that was a good example to post, I didn't mean to post it, because that isn't supported by a vast majority of the United States.

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The questions about Congressman's Schock orientation has not been officially confirmed, but allegations have begun to appear in the media in a greater occurrence. Because of his stand on issues involving the Gay community and the past position of other Congressman and Senators such as Congressman

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It's defamatory to stir these unfounded rumors so that he can be called a hypocrite. The NYT article is a story about Hod reporting hearsay on Facebook. What Hod said on Facebook is not a credible source for Knowledge. Ergo, a story about what Hod posted is no more credible of a source concerning

2590:

By the way, that part to Engleham above isn't aimed at anyone else who believes this topic should be added, as long as they're not pulling the same re-adding stunts. I just didn't want to leave any doubt whatsoever about the misleading statement about consensus, considering Engleham's history of

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I suggest you two read it. However, whether you, he or I find the attempt to out Schock justified or offensive is irrelevant. That is personal opinion only. Whether Schock actually is gay, and has actively worked to deny equal rights to gay American soldiers being shotup in Afghanistan while he's

1960:

We can disagree on that I think, it's really quite a stretch to pretend that the material would be non-notable, unnecessary, or harmful. We are not the news media covering this so any harm is already done. And all of this would be in the light of his anti-LGBT stances, which is unsurprising for a

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template. His support or opposition to a bill is not in of itself any evidence of his support or opposition to gay marriage. In its truest sense, it is nothing more than his belief of what the people he represents want, regardless of his true feelings on the matter. If you wanted to make such a

358:

Regardless or whether the four year degree in two years' claim is directly stated or merely hinted at, it is at odds with what the Biographical Directory of Congress says, and does not fit in with other references I have come across that say that he attended college during his senior year of high

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about Schock's resignation; Frank apparently responded at some point with "He was outed or what?" The story doesn't say what sentence or introduction elicited that response; it implies, but doesn't actually say, that the response was the first thing out of Frank's mouth. The lead pre-emptively

3201:. At this point, your campaign has backfired so badly that any request along these lines will probably be interpreted as you sockpuppeting from now on; you've poisoned the well for anyone with legitimate questions about Schock. Even if someone were to end up showing photographs on national TV, 538:

I've indulged you. See my User Page for the reasons why I don't waste my time indulging further. As you well know, the page is already a puff piece, without the slightest shadow. What a strange miraculous political career he has crafted if that were true! I noted you as the entry's Winged Monkey

459:

I am going to revert this addition, and here is my reasoning: It is already in the article, under the subheading "political positions," that Schock opposed the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, and that he opposes gay marriage. There is no need for this information to be in the article twice. The

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for Engleham, combined with a partial protection to discourage sockpuppets, might be worked out as an alternative to full protection, if other users will refrain from adding the paragraph without consensus. But I don't think anything less than full protection will keep the article in line with

980:

I amend my comments as I didn't see the history as going back to Jan 4 or so, the fully protect was after only two reverts, I think since these ideas are widely reported that some mention is inevitable and fully protecting from any editing serves only to give the nature of this information more

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on the Internet, that never make it into a Knowledge article." Ironically references from the Washington Post and Time were included! You have NOT detailed any reasons in removing the solidly referenced material apart from your own opinion, and removed it before consensus has been reached. I'm

1377:

I was definitely wrong; Obama makes it unconstitutional. However, the law still stands. After Obama, I guess some Republican President will re-constitutionalize and refuse funds, and some next Democratic President will wait for either Senate or House to create bill that will abolish that nasty

4909:

i have removed much of the "sexuality" section because it was mostly speculation over a blind item posted by a journalist on his Facebook page, and "journalism" that amounted to teehee-ing over his shirtless hug with someone and other things that could be perceived as gay. the problem is that

2422:

Why are you surprised that gay people dont necessarily support attempts at outing people based on nothing more than rumors, innuendo and stereotypes? I am also gay, and I categorically reject your inference. Provide some real evidence of Schock's sexuality and we'll have something to discuss.

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The following paragraph was recently added to the article with the new subheading "Controversy": "Schock has taken a strong public position against gay and lesbian equality, voting against the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell, and attacked President Obama's decision not to defend the Defense of

3520:

to adding the gossip again: Even through the serial scandals of the last 2 months, the sexual preference angle hasn't gotten substantial coverage in mainstream media. The fact that his sexuality hasn't been blasted all over the headlines daily, even now when the time is ripe for any Schock

2239:

I disagree with what you've stated but am not, presently, looking to do anything but look at the sources. Some of which are alleging a person willing to go record as having a sexual encounter. If anything comes of it then fine, if not then we can look at what is already presently available.

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high-quality sources. Red flags that should prompt extra caution include: ... reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, or against an interest they had previously defended; claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would

2205:

Your own Washington Post link (which goes to an opinion blog, not a news story) notes that there is nothing more than rumors and gossip behind this "story" - that no one has offered anything resembling proof that Schock is gay. That suggests strongly that Knowledge ought not to include the

922:

The addition and removal of any other content is not covered by this prohibition, full protection is only the tool used to achieve it. I encourage admins to add non-contentious material without the necessity of consensus. The page may be unprotected once a clear consensus is assessed by an

1205:. Until you understand this, you are likely to be continued to be disappointed in this project and your fellow editors. If you want to out people, even one you think are hypocrites, be my guest. Just don't do it here. We are not agents for your cause, or anyone's cause for that matter. -- 3305:

Some of the information in his his "Early life, education and career" come from the Daily Caller. How is this a reliable source? The Daily Caller is a conservative opinion website. Are we seriously going to use this as a legitimate source of information about this guy? Where it says:

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So, while Schock may not publicly self-identify as gay, he has repeatedly been observed publicly attempting to pick up guys in LGBT venues and on gay dating apps. Here's the latest example: . Perhaps he self-identifies as an LGBT ally? Although he's certainly no ally politically...

2749:

I support inclusion of this information in this article. If the information about his misnaming "illegal immigrants" as "undocumented citizens" is worthy of inclusion -a reaction to his actions- then the information that others have reacted to this accusation is equally relevant.

1638:

I support this change. The current version is making a judgement call, while the proposed version is fact-based. If there's a source out there quoting Schock saying that he's opposed to gay marriage, then the original version could be rewritten to include that source.

2843:

As long as the Congressman's denial is included and referenced and the allegations are referenced to respected media sources such as the Washington Post and Politico, etc than I think it should be listed as reoccurring allegations with the denial of the Congressman.

3732:

There is no solid evidence for Schock's homosexuality, otherwise it would be reported much, much more widely in the media. His recent resignation does not change that consensus reached earlier. Reporting rumors has no place on Knowledge or encyclopedias in general.

366:. At the same time, many sources, including the subject's own website, say he completed a four year degree in two years. I have reconciled this discrepancy by phrasing the passage in the Knowledge article in a neutral way to take account of these additional facts - 3196:

to re-insert? I don't know if Aaron Schock once kicked your puppy or what, but this over-2-year obsession with Schock, and your apparent belief that Knowledge exists to legitimize your obsession even when you're blocked from Knowledge, is getting very close to

1979:

According to that article, Cruise made lawsuits against those alleging his sexuality. Schock hasn't mentioned his personal love life, hasn't made lawsuits, and hasn't been caught in a sex scandal. Can you find a valuable information that is worthy of inclusion?

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interprets that to mean that Frank "assumed it was related to longstanding rumours about Schock’s sexuality", apparently passing over the point that Frank was asking a question, not making a statement. The rest of the story is a review of secondary sources. --

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on top of all this to get the point across, then so be it. You do not have any normal person's idea of "reasonable judgement" or "consensus". You need help that editing Knowledge won't get you. Stop abusing Knowledge to try to legitimize your own thoughts.

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says "born in Peoria" explicitly. (The anonymous editor also removed paragraphs about campaign problems, but maybe that's a different issue.) I didn't find anything on Google about Aaron Schock in Minnesota. Does anyone have information that indicates the

3173:

You mean the same thing that most of this talk page itself has been dedicated to saying "no": to you personally about, followed by you interpreting a repeated chorus of "no" as "grudging consensus" for you to do it anyway? The same claim that you were then

1792:

No. Speculation and rumours about the sexuality of living people are not appropriate on Knowledge (except, perhaps, when significant real-world controversy or litigation results from them, which is not the case here). This content has rightly been removed.

800:

Another note: recently, information has been added about the legislative particulars of several bills/amendments that Schock has voted on. Schock's votes may be included here, but including several sentences of background information on these bills is

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This is gossip, not a scandal. No matter how many people talk about gossip, it is still a gossip. There are no legitimate sources saying that he is gay. There are however, legit sources saying that there is gossip. As such, it doesn't belong, per

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habits. "Mr. Schock has said that he is not gay." mentioned in passing after an Instagram comment of "URGH marry me you fiscally conservative stud you." Certainly not evidence that he is gay or that someone reliable claimed that Schock was gay.

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issue and thousands of reader comments and Twitter postings, these are hardly my "own thoughts" – as you well know. Instead of addressing the information, you instead resort to threats. What does that suggest do you think? A little Peoria Putin?

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I just want a consensus (and extra protection if things go out of hand thereafter). People tried to add such material about living people, but outing them unofficially is normally discouraged, unless a living person doesn't mind the rumors, like

1822:

dignified by inclusion in the Clinton article, since it's "widely speculated" even more than the stuff about Schock? Of course not; it's the same level of garbage. The claims are so obviously shallow that, even if Schock turned up married to

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attacks, but has refused to directly address most valid points brought against him. I would venture that if Engleham feels so strongly about this dispute that he needs to lash out and attack his fellow contributors, he may want to review

381:

This is how I phrased it: "He attended Illinois Central College in East Peoria between 1999 and 2002, and received his Bachelor of Science degree from Bradley University in 2002, with a major in finance, after two years of attendance at

1994:

That is one example of rumors about sexuality being prominent enough for inclusion. I'm not sure why you are arguing with me since you were the one to put in the content? It would seem that you would be looking for sourcing on this.

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didn't use his name, he probably feared libel charges. Then this gossip gets propagated as "unconfirmed allegations." Come back when you have a highly regarded reference that actually says he's gay and isn't just repeating rumors.

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has. I don't see any evidence that authors on BI have any more reliability than authors on a multi-user blog; it seems to be just up to the contributor. It has come up several times on Knowledge: see the current discussion at

3401:" It is cited with three sources. Re-inclusion of a detail with one mere sentence might have been motivated by the subject's resignation. Shall such re-inclusion be allowed even after consensus was against the re-inclusion? -- 1047:

being account blocked for it, then creating a sockpuppet, then jamming the same paragraph in with the sockpuppet, and having the sockpuppet blocked; and even after that, he's still been at it for an additional 15+ months. A

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Foley, this matter should be referenced in the Knowledge article as unconfirmed allegations. It should be listed along with the denial from the Congressman's office and highly regarded references so it is even handed.

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what Hod reported, than the original report itself. This needs to be dropped, since there's no credible sources out there saying that Schock is gay. Knowledge is not a repository of rumors, especially defamatory ones.

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and initiate an edit war. Your bold insertion has been reverted by a second, previously-uninvolved editor - it is now incumbent upon you to discuss the material and gain consensus that it is appropriate for inclusion.

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which had noted rumors, and eventually he came out, thus giving a definitive answer to the question. Likewise if reliable sources attribute all or most of this to his vanity, which is not unheard, we can state that.

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Oh the irony. Oh the humanity. But I get it. Without wishing to be personal, I believe this dispute isn't about providing facts: it's about the desire to protect an aging prettyboy. I think I'm about to dry heave.

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Why comparing opinions about illegal immigration to rumors about his sexuality? Actually, I'd rather include his comments about LGBT rights if he made one already. However, I don't know if BLP-pushers approve.

2534:"Censoring" disputed rumors? Since when nationwide, yet contentious rumors becomes "news"? And even some "news" may not be worthy of inclusion, as the so-called "source" started the rumor in the first place. -- 2307:

intense online discussion about the practice of 'outing' and the obligations of the Media to expose hypocrisy should such rumors be true. On its ratings of the voting of Congressional members for equality, the

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rumors are a significant fact which stalk the congressman repeatedly. So the article should at least state something along the lines of "Aaron Schock has long been the subject of rumors that he is homosexual (

292:-Aaron Schock graduated from Richwoods High School and Rolling Acres Middle School in Peoria. He then graduated from Bradley University in Peoria with a B.S. in Finance (a four year degree) in only two years." 3666:

publishes news, information, analysis, opinion, and commentary. The site includes both reported and edited content and unmoderated posts and comments containing personal opinions on a wide range of topics.

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I believe that the controversy over the rumours of homosexuality does warrant inclusion but I'm aware I'm likely in the minority as consensus doesn't seem to have changed from what I can see since last time.

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I stand corrected. It is true that there have been rumors. As has been said before, rumors and gossip doesn't belong here, even if the gossip has been documented (as gossip, not fact) by some news sources.

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Schock is opposed to gay marriage, demonstrated by his support of House Amendment 1416, which Prohibits Use of Funds in Contravention of the Defense of Marriage Act, adopted 247 to 166 in the House July 19,

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Time magazine asked: "You graduated from college in two years. You joined the Illinois legislature at 23. Why the hurry? I'm a big believer that when opportunity presents itself, you've got to seize it....

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No one? So, while there may not be happiness, there is grudging consensus on the revision is there? In that case, shall we request the block be removed? After all, 3 months is atypical and extraordinary.

1201:". Unfortunately, this statement suggests strongly that you do not appear to understand the purpose of this project. It is not here to further any cause, no matter how righteous you may think it to be. 2185:

I'm open to reviewing sources to see what is notable or not. We have an obligation to NPOV, which counts for what is left out of a report as much as what is included. Let's see what the sources say.

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Therefore, it seems he attended college for at least 3 years, not 2, in order to earn his degree; and may have attended for as long as 3 1/2 years if he enrolled in community college early in 1999.

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see here) of the brouhaha that been a major item and does everything short of outing the Congressman, with hyperlinks to sources that name names. I think it's time to reconsider its inclusion. --

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allegations that he has "repeatedly denied that he is a closeted homosexual in the face of persistent rumors, which have repeatedly flared up...." is rife with weasel words and is a violation of

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consensus as long as Engleham is unrestricted — as we can see from the discussion above, that user responds to pages full of "No" with "there is grudging consensus on the revision is there?" --

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And no, not the unimpeachable reliable source which reports that someone said that someone else's unnamed anonymous friend said Aaron Schock had a gay sexual encounter. Because those are two

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Actually, one before semi, two after semi, leading to full. That's just similar content. Just ask Callanecc if you prove that unprotection or semi-protection won't lead to further dispute.

4236: 581:. Calling me a "Winged Monkey" and "opportunistic political player" don't seem to fit the bill. I'm trying to engage in a substantive, good faith discussion about the article's content. 4280: 3575:." In other words, Knowledge is not for trading in "some people have asked" or "some people have implied" stories about living or recently deceased people. The sources given are not 1118:'s homepage manifesto on how Knowledge should be run and edited (no rules and an agenda free-for-all), I have to strongly support, too, a topic ban of whatever duration admins decide. 4226: 1029:

In this particular case, as previous blocks resulted in the same volume of abusive/non-consensus behavior, I'd support the unusually-long 3 month block, now that I've become aware of

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It simply cannot be true to say that a person finished a four year degree program in two years if he transferred credits from another college that he attended for at least one year

1478:, demonstrated by his support of House Amendment 1416, which Prohibits Use of Funds in Contravention of the Defense of Marriage Act, adopted 247 to 166 in the House July 19, 2012. 1845:

Unless this gossip becomes big enough that it has become a repeat topic in multiple well-established, editorially-strict publications — like the main, for-the-record editions of

4694: 1418:(and not just what he is saying to keep his position by telling the people what they want to hear), and build a consensus based on that or those reliable source(s). Good luck! 2565: 1623:

The current version is totally biased and partially unverified. I would hope that someone here understands my proposal. Also, I think I need comments about this proposed edit.

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No, we have no obligation to discuss anything which is based upon nothing more than "rumors." If Schock comes out, then we'll have something worth including. Otherwise, not.

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It's not that we don't know the score regarding this guy, it's that you are misusing this talk page. Please take Closeapple's advice before this becomes a formal topic ban.

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might satisfy #2, but not #1. That said, I'm not advocating for this issue to be included in the article. I'm just speaking to your statement that this would be defamatory.

2556:"grudging" or any other consensus for your favorite paragraph in the world to be re-added to this article, and, no matter what happens, there will never be consensus for 2106:, not the low-oversight blogs with the same brand name on them — it is noise, and shouldn't be given any more legitimacy than the millions of other cheap shots, rehashed 1859:, not the low-oversight blogs with the same brand name on them — it is noise, and shouldn't be given any more legitimacy than the millions of other cheap shots, rehashed 2576:

territory for you, and if you don't quit it, you will get a very blatant lesson in what actual consensus looks like, in the form of a community topic ban discussion. --

2225:

look and act in ways that resemble that societal stereotype. Until there is something more than rumors and stereotypes, this has no place in an encyclopedic biography.

1239:

Could you just move it to above the section? It's highly irrelevant to protection. Also, the source doesn't mention explicitly Schock, and inserting interpretation is

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As far as I see, only you and Engleham are in favor of inclusions. The rest of us aren't in favor of violating BLP policy by such inclusion, unless I'm misreading.

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enforcement. But to remove doubt for other contributors, I'll continue here.) As with all the other times before: This is an allegation that would significantly

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Schock voted for House Amendment 1416, which Prohibits Use of Funds in Contravention of the Defense of Marriage Act, adopted 247 to 166 in the House July 19, 2012.

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use that term in their coverage of Schock. If you can find reliable sources describing Schock as a straight/LGBT ally, please share these sources. As a note, the

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Discussion is fine, but by ignoring notable criticism we are violating NPOV by censorship. Some mention of this certainly belongs as it has become national news.

1611: 1597: 1510: 3547:. Obviously, per all the talk sections above, we shouldn't even have to discuss this anymore: Engleham always tries to sneak this in, and is well overdue for 2018:, none mentioned such gay rumors per BLP policy. The only "valid" rumors to verify are either scandals, self-published love life, or lawsuits, as said before. 2152:

to keep it out. Likely there is room between these realities to state that there are prominent rumors and print Schock's take on the situation. An example is

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This paragraph should probably be under the "legislative history" section, but could potentially be incorporated into a section on related policy. Thanks!

2937:, and consider leaving this matter to the community to decide. If a contributor feels the need to storm around, raging at others, they should keep that to 4894: 3127: 3022: 2768:

Oh wait; he voted against gay marriage (should be same-sex marriage if "gay" is too POV for you), so verified comments over unverified sexuality, please.

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You don't believe in those rumors, do you? These rumors are considered false at this time, unless they are verified to be true solely by Schock himself.

2032:

Oh, I apologize for misunderstandings. I missed the phrase "significant coverage". I assumed that you wanted an inclusion deliberately, yet I missed it.

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does not routinely moderate, screen, or edit content contributed by readers." At least this story starts off with the original nugget: It claims that "

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120320011939/http://www.pjstar.com/opinions/endorsements/x1067687277/18th-Congressional-District-endorsement-Aaron-Schock

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inclusion of rumors, allegations, claims, innuendos and all such because (need we really explain this?) such a course would be in blatant violation of

4281:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150329215336/http://cis.org/feere/gop-congressman-calls-illegal-aliens-undocumented-citizens-trusts-obama-administration

3626:"article" promoting the author's own niche show on unregulated media, by stepping up and surprising Schock (again) by asking if Schock is gay, is not 322:

In 2006 Peoria Magazine reported that Schock said "I graduated from Bradley University with a B.S. in Finance two years after graduating high school."

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120324083536/http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-12/politics/aaron.schock_1_abs-same-sex-marriage-young-age?_s=PM:POLITICS

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will leave the portion of the quote that verifies this in the footnote, but will trim out unnecessary personal info about other LPs per BLP policy.

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Despite his voting record which is discriminatory to homosexuals, Schock has been the subject of repeated rumours that he himself is homosexual.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20150402181129/http://www.cinewsnow.com/news/local/Congressman-Schock-Sits-In-On-Obamacare-Hearings-144483305.html

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I would like to add the following, which supplies a reference from a source which, by any reasonable judgement, would be called reputable.

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has done a great deal to incite discord and seems deadset on an outright flamewar. He has no problem using an aggressive tone and slinging

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Maybe I'm wrong; both are section 3 of DOMA and Title 1 Sect 7 are the same. Why does the House.gov still have that unconstitutional Code?

1342: 1225: 1335:, a federal definition that defined "marriage" as one man and one woman. I can't find a source that proves it was abolished or something. 735:

deleted the paragraph I added. I believe that was in error. Tucsontammy didn't even leave a Talk page comment or contact me in anyway. ─

4574: 4394: 4082: 3703:(A version also appeared in the New York edition of the NYT, May 22, 2014, on page E7 the with the headline: "Picture Him in Congress".) 1721:

At this stage there is consensus against adding the rumour and events surrounding the rumour that Schock is gay be added to the article.

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think there's enough evidence to even run the gossip. (As usual, the article edit in question is by block-evading, Schock-sex-obsessed

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There is no editorial consensus on this page for its inclusion. Absent such consensus, the material does not belong in the encyclopedia.

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states that Knowledge is not for "scandal mongering, promoting things 'heard through the grapevine' or gossiping. Articles and content

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You could not make this up. I see from the Talk Page of User:George Ho who requested the block that they created pages such as this:

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

4404:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20121128090921/http://www.pjstar.com:80/opinions/endorsements/x2143895864/Our-View-18th-Congress-Schock

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Oh: and to the self-loathers here against the outing of those vote against equal rights: you should view Outrage. And be outraged

1084:

For the purposes of comparing how this has placed with other similar articles, I did an audit. I took three politicians named in

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for 3 months or until there is clear consensus as to whether to include gossip and rumours regarding whether Schock is gay under

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The section on the bombing attempt is completely out of context for this article. Either provide context or omit the section. --

2311:, the largest LGBT civil rights advocacy group and political lobbying organization in the United States, scored Schock a zero. 1732: 1700: 934: 852: 763: 3847: 3497:, Double reference to prior consensus. Just felt a little non neutral. Although looking back, non neutral in both directions. 3346:

If I simply take it out someone will just revert the edit. I'd like to discuss it first before taking things out of articles.

2915:

After reading all of this mess, my opinions are as follows. This seems extraneous at best. Rumors have no place on Knowledge,

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Republican but is very shocking if he is indeed a gay/bisexual man, as alleged. And just the rumors alone can be significant,

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Hi Matthewi. In my edit summary when I reverted your original edit, I noted that it did not adhere to Knowledge's policies on

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Sure. But tabloids, blogs and other sensationalist media should not serve the basis here. Strong words need strong sources. —

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I fear that disagreement on closing it is on grounds for more comments at this time. Perhaps invite other Projects, as I did

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This RFC isn't particularly neutrally phrased. The sentence included is also really badly worded for POV and BLP concerns.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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have been added. His anti-gay actions aside, should we allow the content about rumors of his sexuality to be added here? --

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

313:"In 2004, at age 23 .... He'd already received a bachelor's degree in finance after just two years at Bradley University." 4806: 4554: 4311:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110721043336/http://www.ilga.gov/house/RepBills.asp?GA=95&MemberID=1302&Primary=True

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110721043322/http://www.ilga.gov/house/RepBills.asp?GA=94&MemberID=1117&Primary=True

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https://web.archive.org/web/20150313231008/http://www.nationaljournal.com:80/congress/another-bad-trip-for-schock-20150312

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110715091540/http://www.pjstar.com/news/regional/x1794959801/Aaron-Schock-through-the-years

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The sentence should be removed. Not sure how it lasted these last 2 weeks. Nothing is new since the previous discussion.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20150511011855/http://www.myjournalcourier.com/articles/guantanamo-24489-maximum-prison.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20121104035202/http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2012/11/schock-explorin.php

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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7188119/Former-Republican-congressman-filmed-slipping-cash-dancers-briefs.html

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An editor has determined that the edit contains an error somewhere. Please follow the instructions below and mark the

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for Schock's personal life, or even much evidence about anyone other than the story authors themselves. Specifically:

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to contribute the text, since you have been trying to re-add repeatedly for so long (at least 15 months) that you were

2467:

The rights and wrongs of outing as it pertains to this case are excellently addressed by Michaelangelo Signoreli here:

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110203055820/http://schock.house.gov/UploadedFiles/Schock_CRS_Report_Honduras_FINAL.pdf

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Reliability of sources is proven irrelevant, as long as the material is non-notable, unnecessary, and harmful; see

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As far as I can see, this question is not unambiguously covered in the policies: there is definitely a gap between

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Schock was the subject of persistent gay rumors in the media, which he repeatedly addressed with vigorous denials.

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church? Same anon removed that line also, but that claim was uncited anyway, so it pretty much deserved to go. --

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https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/05/antigay-former-congressman-aaron-schock-busted-trying-pick-guy-west-hollywood

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since there was already consensus to not include the rumors a year ago, I wee no reason to re-include the rumor.

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How is a 5th grader suppose to do anything of that legally? Can we elaborate on that or find a different source?

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eighth grade, he began doing the accounting work for a gravel pit, a job he kept throughout his high school years

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without the checkered background? (the background doesn't appear until it's in Picasa...at least on my computer)

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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He was also born in a log cabin, I suppose. Be bold and take it out unless or until a reliable source is found.

274: 262:"attended Illinois Central College, East Peoria, Ill., 1999-2002; B. S., Bradley University, Peoria, Ill., 2002" 82: 4915: 4542: 4294: 2569: 2437: 2424: 2327:

http://www.ibtimes.com/aaron-schock-gay-journalist-itay-hod-appears-out-republican-congressman-facebook-1526672

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http://www.ibtimes.com/aaron-schock-gay-journalist-itay-hod-appears-out-republican-congressman-facebook-1526672

1229: 582: 513: 469: 417: 281:"Aaron enrolled in Bradley University and earned his degree in Finance...a four-year degree in only two years." 218:

On Hardball with Chris Matthews tonight, Schock openly advocated torture (not even shying away from the word).

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110721043318/http://www.ilga.gov/house/RepCommittees.asp?MemberID=1302&GA=95

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http://www.details.com/culture-trends/news-and-politics/200904/aaron-schock-is-the-youngest-member-of-congress

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http://www.details.com/culture-trends/news-and-politics/200904/aaron-schock-is-the-youngest-member-of-congress

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120309134426/http://schock.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=225960

4385:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120309134426/http://schock.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=225960

4365:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110203081223/http://schock.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=146377

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120309134426/http://schock.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=225960

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120309134426/http://schock.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=225960

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I don't think pending changes can stop either; level one or two (which is under discussion) won't help much.

722: 350:"While serving as the youngest school board member in the state, Schock finished college in just two years." 4760: 4676: 4640: 4496: 4460: 4285:

https://cis.org/feere/gop-congressman-calls-illegal-aliens-undocumented-citizens-trusts-obama-administration

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http://www.pjstar.com/opinions/endorsements/x1067687277/18th-Congressional-District-endorsement-Aaron-Schock

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Please provide the unimpeachable reliable source which reports that Aaron Schock had a gay sexual encounter.

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http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-12/politics/aaron.schock_1_abs-same-sex-marriage-young-age?_s=PM%3APOLITICS

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http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-12/politics/aaron.schock_1_abs-same-sex-marriage-young-age?_s=PM:POLITICS

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