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Talk:Abbasid–Carolingian alliance

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sent form the Abbasid Empire to the Carolingians Changed the Aftermath title at bottom of page to the title of Lasting influences. The definition of aftermath didn't fit well with the contents of the section. Fixed plagiarism The bottom section of the Embassies section, about the Horologium clock, was palgiarised from Moshe Gil, Ethel Broido A History of Palestine, 634-1099 Cambridge University Press, 1997 ISBN 0-521-59984-9. -In the background selection the removal of “partially formed” was done because nothing substantial or concrete was formed between the two empires. The sending of embassies does not imply the formation of something, therefore it could not really be partially formed. The alliance between the Abbasids and Carolingians was simply attempted.This change was added to include the gifts that were a feature in the embassies sent by Charlemagne to the Abbasid empire - “It is noted that Charlemagne made attempts to establish an open market between the Carolingians and Abbasids, possibly as a means for the Carolingians economically benefit from trade with the Abbasids” This change was added to provide further context as to why Charlemagne would have been motivated to pursue this relationship - “The embassies sent by Charlemagne possessed sundry royal red fabrics, a textile noted to be of value within the Abbasid realm. In addition, Charlemagne sponsored the construction of the Church of St. Mary in Jerusalem and its library, and send sums of money with all of his envoys.” This change was added to include the gifts that were a feature in the embassies sent by Charlemagne to the Abbasid empire - “with which the Patriarch of Jerusalem sent Charlemagne the keys to the Holy Sepulcher and the site of Calvary, as well as a Jerusalem Banner (Kennedy).” This information was added to highlight the extent of contact experienced when these embassies moved between the two empires. - “In the Byzantine Empire from 723 to 842, Islam and Judaism influenced a Christian movement towards the destruction of images this time, an event known as "Iconoclasm". According to Arnold Toynbee, it is the prestige of Islamic military successes in the 7-8th centuries that motivated Byzantine Christians into evaluating and adopting the Islamic precept of the destruction of idolatry images. Charlemagne himself attempted to follow the iconoclastic precepts of the East Roman Emperor Leo Syrus, but this was stopped by Pope Hadrian I.” This section was rewritten, because it did not appear to bare significant relevance to the overall topic of the article, and appeared to be create a distinct connection between the Byzantine Iconoclasm and one that may have occurred in Europe. The new changes are intended to still have relevant information and relatively not create a connection between a Western European Iconoclasm and the Byzantine iconoclasm.
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Rapprochement sounds good to my French ears (to be honest I did not know it was an English word), I understand it as close and peaceful relations but not something as strong as an alliance that I would imagine as an uninterrupted agreement throughout the period. In this case the title is changed, the
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A Google Books search on Carolingian+Abassid+alliance already provides quite a good sampling of what published historians have to say on the subject. The degree achieved by the alliance is described variously by historians, but "alliance" clearly seems to be a term used to describe the rapprochement
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Added section title on Diplomatic Gifts We added a section on diplomatic gift that had been exchange between the abbasids and the carolingians. It made the article read more clearly to add a section titled Diplomatic Gifts. Within this section we added further accounts of specific gifts that were
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the same in all regions, and should be sublisted separately in each region: intermunicipal entities are sometimes larger and split by subregions (e.g. the Metropolitan Area of Lisbon has two subregions), some intercommunal entities are containing only parts of subregions. All subregions should be
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For me the main difficulty of using Abbasid-Carolingian alliance is that on the one hand most historian are positive about an alliance involving Charlemagne and Harun-al-Raschid, but on the other hand the term Caroligian refers to a much longer period (~741-876) and the Abbasid Caliphate is even
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Hiya, popping in per request on my talkpage. The key issue here is to try and determine the term that is in most wide use among modern scholars on the topic. In checking Google Books and Google Scholar, the term "Abbasid-Carolingian alliance" does not seem to be in wide use. We went into this
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longer (750-1258). There were long terms relation and an attested alliance for a shorter period of time. I haven't read through the French article I referred earlier in the discussion, by I find quite relevant that the word alliance is only used once on 21 pages. --
3129:"One of the most famous cases in Western tradition is the exchange of emissaries between Charlemagne and Harun al-Rashid, in which the former, in addition to the exchange of valuable gifts, sought to establish an alliance with the Abassids" 322: 79: 2803:). I wouldn't mind if we could find a better title though, what is interesting is that we can document these relations during the period... just "relations" would be underwhelming though... could be something like "rapprochement"?? 3166: 257: 63: 289: 71: 3253:, and after extensive disputes, it resulted in one editor (who I see is currently editing on this page) being permanently banned from editing in the topic area. I hope that the dispute isn't just overflowing to here now? -- 3096: 2770: 273: 67: 3009: 2870:
It's actually a French word that we borrowed off you. I'm not sure if rapprochement would be the correct term as it means a reestablishment of relations or reconciliation between two countries, as can be seen
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statistic subdivisions but real administrative entities, so they should be listed below, probably using a smaller font: we can safely eliminate the subgrouping by type of intermunicipal entity from this
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Quite apart from the grammatical error, who does this refer to? And why would any Ummayad ruler point out to Charlemagne that he was about to be attacked by the Abbasids?
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Contacts were initiated, gifts were exchanged, agreements apparently made, both parties found agreement in fighting against the Umayyads etc... as described in sources (
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The airport is not listed as João Paulo II anywhere. The airport's own website calls itself simply Ponta Delgada, and has no mention of João Paulo.
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alliance between Haroun-al-Rachid and Charlemagne should be mentioned in the lead (I take the opportunity to introduce another French source...
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The lead says that the alliance was "attempted and partially formed", shall we really say that is a real alliance ? I raised the case in the
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The three Umayyad ruler also conveyed that the caliph of Baghdad, Muhammad al-Mahdi, was preparing an invasion force against Abd al-Rhaman I.
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with the Abbasids in order to weaken the power of their enemies at the time: the Byzantine empire and the Umayyads of Spain"
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with Charlemagne, an event recalled, albeit distortedly, in the late eleventh-century French epic the Chanson de Roland"
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listed explicitly and not assume they are only intermunicipal entities (which accessorily are
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As for this precise article, the three sources referenced in the article do speak about the
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From the section "Charlemagne's alliance - Military alliance in Spain (777-778)":
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that developed between the Carolingians and the Abassids. I tend to trust most
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a brief alliance between Charlemagne and the Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid
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because I assume there are other cases in military history.
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on the subject, who explains "Charlemagne entered into
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between Sulaiman, wali of Barcelona, and Charlemagne,
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ummayad was the one who rule al andalus not abbasid
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his fervent alliance with both the Abbasid Caliphate
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where you can join the project or contribute to the
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This article has been checked against the following
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Article Improvements-Meetup Students of Islamic Art
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Setton 2702: 2701: 2665:and the Frankish 2663:Abbasid Caliphate 2615: 2614: 2611: 2610: 2607: 2606: 2480: 2479: 2476: 2475: 2371: 2370: 2367: 2366: 2318:WikiProject Spain 2266: 2265: 2262: 2261: 2236:Pakistan articles 2161: 2160: 2157: 2156: 2153: 2152: 2138: 2137: 1985:Find correct name 1919:Portugal articles 1844: 1843: 1840: 1839: 1791:WikiProject Egypt 1739: 1738: 1735: 1734: 1626: 1625: 1622: 1621: 1521: 1520: 1517: 1516: 1468:WikiProject Syria 1432: 1431: 1428: 1427: 1327: 1326: 1323: 1322: 1238: 1237: 1234: 1233: 1161:WikiProject Islam 1103: 1102: 1099: 1098: 1055:history of Europe 998: 997: 994: 993: 934: 933: 930: 929: 846: 845: 842: 841: 741: 740: 737: 736: 636: 635: 632: 631: 606:politics articles 531: 530: 527: 526: 442: 441: 438: 437: 337: 336: 333: 332: 329: 328: 223: 222: 110:full instructions 3715: 2935: 2921: 2918: 2915: 2912: 2847: 2818: 2815: 2812: 2809: 2694: 2671:Byzantine Empire 2624: 2617: 2563: 2562: 2559: 2556: 2553: 2532: 2527: 2526: 2525: 2516: 2509: 2508: 2503: 2500: 2489: 2482: 2452: 2451: 2448: 2445: 2442: 2417: 2412: 2411: 2410: 2401: 2394: 2393: 2388: 2380: 2373: 2343: 2342: 2339: 2336: 2333: 2312: 2307: 2306: 2305: 2296: 2289: 2288: 2283: 2275: 2268: 2238: 2237: 2234: 2231: 2228: 2207: 2202: 2201: 2200: 2191: 2184: 2183: 2178: 2170: 2163: 1980: 1979: 1947: 1921: 1920: 1917: 1914: 1911: 1890: 1885: 1884: 1883: 1874: 1867: 1866: 1861: 1853: 1846: 1816: 1815: 1812: 1809: 1806: 1785: 1780: 1779: 1778: 1769: 1762: 1761: 1756: 1748: 1741: 1711: 1710: 1707: 1704: 1701: 1687:join the project 1678:WikiProject Iran 1672: 1667: 1666: 1665: 1656: 1649: 1648: 1643: 1635: 1628: 1598: 1597: 1594: 1591: 1588: 1567: 1562: 1561: 1560: 1551: 1544: 1543: 1538: 1530: 1523: 1493: 1492: 1489: 1486: 1483: 1462: 1455: 1454: 1449: 1441: 1434: 1404: 1403: 1400: 1397: 1394: 1379:WikiProject Iraq 1373: 1368: 1367: 1366: 1357: 1350: 1349: 1344: 1336: 1329: 1299: 1298: 1295: 1292: 1289: 1268: 1261: 1260: 1255: 1247: 1240: 1186: 1185: 1182: 1179: 1176: 1155: 1150: 1149: 1148: 1139: 1132: 1131: 1126: 1123: 1112: 1105: 1075: 1074: 1071: 1068: 1065: 1064:European history 1044: 1039: 1038: 1037: 1028: 1021: 1020: 1015: 1011:European history 1007: 1000: 988: 987: 984: 981: 978: 977:Former countries 972:join the project 961: 954: 953: 947:Former countries 943: 936: 924: 923: 920: 917: 914: 889: 884: 883: 882: 873: 866: 865: 855: 848: 818: 817: 816:Germany articles 814: 811: 808: 787: 782: 781: 780: 771: 764: 763: 758: 750: 743: 713: 712: 709: 706: 703: 682: 677: 676: 675: 666: 659: 658: 653: 645: 638: 608: 607: 604: 601: 598: 577: 572: 571: 561: 554: 553: 548: 540: 533: 503: 502: 499: 496: 493: 472: 465: 464: 459: 451: 444: 414: 413: 410: 407: 404: 383: 378: 377: 367: 360: 359: 354: 346: 339: 239: 229: 213: 209: 208: 202: 198: 197: 191: 187: 186: 180: 176: 175: 169: 165: 164: 143: 126: 125: 122: 119: 116: 115:Military history 95: 88: 87: 82: 59:Military history 55: 48: 31: 25: 24: 16: 3723: 3722: 3718: 3717: 3716: 3714: 3713: 3712: 3323: 3322: 3307: 3276: 3178:Brian A. Catlos 2928: 2919: 2916: 2913: 2910: 2906:. Best regards 2838: 2825: 2816: 2813: 2810: 2807: 2797:Shalem, p.94-95 2756: 2707: 2673:and the Muslim 2560: 2557: 2554: 2551: 2550: 2528: 2523: 2521: 2501: 2495: 2449: 2446: 2443: 2440: 2439: 2413: 2408: 2406: 2386: 2340: 2337: 2334: 2331: 2330: 2308: 2303: 2301: 2281: 2235: 2232: 2229: 2226: 2225: 2205:Pakistan portal 2203: 2198: 2196: 2176: 2149: 2142:Watch this list 2105:Translate from 1978: 1950:Portugal To-do: 1918: 1915: 1912: 1909: 1908: 1888:Portugal portal 1886: 1881: 1879: 1859: 1813: 1810: 1807: 1804: 1803: 1781: 1776: 1774: 1754: 1708: 1705: 1702: 1699: 1698: 1668: 1663: 1661: 1641: 1595: 1592: 1589: 1586: 1585: 1563: 1558: 1556: 1536: 1490: 1487: 1484: 1481: 1480: 1447: 1401: 1398: 1395: 1392: 1391: 1369: 1364: 1362: 1342: 1296: 1293: 1290: 1287: 1286: 1253: 1183: 1180: 1177: 1174: 1173: 1151: 1146: 1144: 1124: 1118: 1072: 1069: 1066: 1063: 1062: 1040: 1035: 1033: 1013: 985: 982: 979: 976: 975: 921: 918: 915: 912: 911: 885: 880: 878: 815: 812: 809: 806: 805: 783: 778: 776: 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3163: 3159: 3158: 3155: 3152: 3143: 3139: 3138: 3135: 3132: 3127: 3126:Majid Khadduri 3123: 3122: 3120: 3117: 3108: 3105: 3104: 3101: 3098: 3089: 3085: 3084: 3081: 3078: 3073: 3069: 3068: 3066: 3063: 3058: 3054: 3053: 3050: 3047: 3042: 3038: 3037: 3034: 3031: 3022: 3021:Avinoam Shalem 3018: 3017: 3014: 3011: 3002: 2998: 2997: 2994: 2991: 2973: 2969: 2968: 2965: 2962: 2953: 2949: 2948: 2945: 2942: 2939: 2926: 2892: 2891: 2890: 2889: 2888: 2887: 2863: 2862: 2861: 2860: 2831: 2830: 2823: 2755: 2752: 2751: 2750: 2717: 2716: 2706: 2703: 2700: 2699: 2689: 2683: 2682: 2625: 2613: 2612: 2609: 2608: 2605: 2604: 2595: 2585: 2584: 2577:Low-importance 2573: 2567: 2566: 2564: 2561:Greek articles 2547:the discussion 2534: 2533: 2517: 2505: 2504: 2502:Low‑importance 2490: 2478: 2477: 2474: 2473: 2466:Low-importance 2462: 2456: 2455: 2453: 2419: 2418: 2402: 2390: 2389: 2387:Low‑importance 2381: 2369: 2368: 2365: 2364: 2357:Low-importance 2353: 2347: 2346: 2344: 2341:Spain articles 2327:the discussion 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portal 772: 760: 759: 757:Low‑importance 751: 739: 738: 735: 734: 727:Low-importance 723: 717: 716: 714: 697:the discussion 684: 683: 667: 655: 654: 652:Low‑importance 646: 634: 633: 630: 629: 622:Low-importance 618: 612: 611: 609: 592:the discussion 579: 578: 562: 550: 549: 547:Low‑importance 541: 529: 528: 525: 524: 517:Low-importance 513: 507: 506: 504: 487:the discussion 473: 461: 460: 458:Low‑importance 452: 440: 439: 436: 435: 428:Mid-importance 424: 418: 417: 415: 398:the discussion 385: 384: 368: 356: 355: 353:Mid‑importance 347: 335: 334: 331: 330: 327: 326: 320: 310: 309: 303: 293: 292: 287: 277: 276: 271: 261: 260: 255: 245: 244: 242: 240: 234: 233: 225: 224: 221: 220: 218: 216: 215: 214: 203: 192: 181: 170: 156: 155: 153: 140: 130: 129: 127: 96: 84: 83: 56: 44: 43: 37: 26: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3720: 3709: 3706: 3704: 3701: 3699: 3696: 3694: 3691: 3689: 3686: 3684: 3681: 3679: 3676: 3674: 3671: 3669: 3666: 3664: 3661: 3659: 3656: 3654: 3651: 3649: 3646: 3644: 3641: 3639: 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1276: 1275: 1270: 1267: 1263: 1262: 1258: 1252: 1249: 1246: 1242: 1229: 1226:(assessed as 1225: 1224: 1214: 1210: 1209: 1205: 1201: 1195: 1192: 1191: 1188: 1171: 1167: 1163: 1162: 1154: 1143: 1141: 1138: 1134: 1133: 1129: 1122: 1117: 1114: 1111: 1107: 1094: 1090: 1084: 1081: 1080: 1077: 1060: 1056: 1052: 1051: 1043: 1042:Europe portal 1032: 1030: 1027: 1023: 1022: 1018: 1012: 1009: 1006: 1002: 990: 973: 969: 968: 963: 960: 956: 955: 951: 948: 945: 942: 938: 926: 909: 905: 901: 897: 896: 888: 877: 875: 872: 868: 867: 863: 860: 857: 854: 850: 837: 833: 827: 824: 823: 820: 803: 799: 795: 794: 786: 775: 773: 770: 766: 765: 761: 755: 752: 749: 745: 732: 728: 722: 719: 718: 715: 698: 694: 690: 689: 681: 680:France portal 670: 668: 665: 661: 660: 656: 650: 647: 644: 640: 627: 623: 617: 614: 613: 610: 593: 589: 585: 584: 576: 570: 565: 563: 560: 556: 555: 551: 545: 542: 539: 535: 522: 518: 512: 509: 508: 505: 488: 484: 480: 479: 474: 471: 467: 466: 462: 456: 453: 450: 446: 433: 429: 423: 420: 419: 416: 399: 395: 391: 390: 382: 376: 371: 369: 366: 362: 361: 357: 351: 348: 345: 341: 324: 316: 312: 311: 307: 299: 295: 294: 291: 283: 279: 278: 275: 267: 263: 262: 259: 251: 247: 246: 243: 241: 236: 235: 230: 226: 219: 217: 212:criterion met 204: 201:criterion met 193: 190:criterion met 182: 179:criterion met 171: 168:criterion met 160: 159: 158: 157: 154: 151: 150: 144: 141: 136: 132: 131: 128: 111: 107: 103: 102: 97: 94: 90: 89: 85: 81: 77: 73: 69: 65: 60: 57: 54: 50: 45: 41: 35: 27: 23: 18: 17: 3308: 3281:— Preceding 3277: 3182: 3146: 3142:Beryl Ratzer 3111: 3092: 3072:Gene W. Heck 3025: 3005: 2984: 2980: 2976: 2956: 2909: 2908: 2900: 2893: 2846:(in French). 2843: 2806: 2805: 2801:Scholz, p.16 2766: 2764: 2757: 2718: 2713: 2708: 2669:against the 2661:between the 2652: 2651:... that an 2649:Did you know 2648: 2638:Did you know 2636: 2628: 2627:A fact from 2598: 2576: 2536: 2465: 2432:project page 2421: 2356: 2316: 2310:Spain portal 2251: 2211: 2140: 2127: 2126: 2116: 2115: 2104: 2103: 2095: 2094: 2083: 2082: 2070: 2069: 2060: 2055: 2049: 2041: 2035: 2034: 2027: 2020: 2013: 2007: 2006: 1990: 1989: 1984: 1983: 1934: 1894: 1829: 1789: 1783:Egypt portal 1724: 1676: 1611: 1587:Saudi Arabia 1578:Saudi Arabia 1571: 1534:Saudi Arabia 1506: 1466: 1417: 1377: 1312: 1272: 1221: 1199: 1159: 1153:Islam portal 1088: 1048: 965: 904:project page 893: 831: 791: 726: 686: 621: 581: 516: 476: 427: 387: 147: 99: 80:Early Muslim 40:WikiProjects 3026:an alliance 2985:consummated 2793:Heck, p.172 2659:8th century 2643:check views 2441:Afghanistan 2428:Afghanistan 2384:Afghanistan 2096:Need images 2015:Os Lusíadas 1691:discussions 1670:Iran portal 1371:Iraq portal 913:Netherlands 900:Netherlands 859:Netherlands 403:Middle Ages 350:Middle Ages 188:Structure: 3327:Categories 3224:Historian 3209:Historian 3193:Historian 3173:Historian 3157:Historian 3137:Historian 3103:Historian 3083:Historian 3052:Historian 3036:Historian 3016:Historian 2996:Historian 2967:Historian 2877:John Hendo 2436:discussion 1695:open tasks 1288:Arab world 1279:Arab world 1251:Arab world 908:discussion 2938:Historian 2696:Knowledge 2633:Main Page 2498:Byzantine 3295:contribs 3283:unsigned 2981:alliance 2675:Umayyads 2654:alliance 2227:Pakistan 2218:Pakistan 2174:Pakistan 2071:Requests 1997:Portugal 1910:Portugal 1901:Portugal 1857:Portugal 597:Politics 588:politics 544:Politics 149:criteria 76:Medieval 64:European 3311:Xsax777 2941:Opinion 2740:Maproom 2721:Maproom 2635:in the 2579:on the 2468:on the 2359:on the 2254:on the 2029:More... 2008:Improve 1964:history 1937:on the 1832:on the 1727:on the 1614:on the 1509:on the 1420:on the 1315:on the 1202:on the 1091:on the 834:on the 807:Germany 798:Germany 754:Germany 729:on the 624:on the 519:on the 430:on the 72:Spanish 30:B-class 3236:Anneyh 2920:Gloria 2914:Honor 2850:Anneyh 2817:Gloria 2811:Honor 2778:Anneyh 2552:Greece 2493:Greece 2118:Wikify 2084:Assess 2036:Review 2002:Lisbon 702:France 693:France 649:France 68:French 36:scale. 2679:Spain 2332:Spain 2323:Spain 2279:Spain 2128:Vote: 2064:box). 1974:purge 1969:watch 1805:Egypt 1796:Egypt 1752:Egypt 1482:Syria 1473:Syria 1445:Syria 1175:Islam 1166:Islam 1116:Islam 3315:talk 3291:talk 3240:talk 3206:2004 3190:2004 3170:1976 3154:2000 3134:2006 3119:1988 3100:2009 3080:2007 3065:1973 3049:1983 3033:2004 3013:1986 2993:1972 2964:2006 2944:Year 2911:Per 2881:talk 2873:here 2854:talk 2808:Per 2782:talk 2744:talk 2725:talk 2076:See 1959:edit 1700:Iran 1683:Iran 1639:Iran 1393:Iraq 1384:Iraq 1340:Iraq 2917:et 2814:et 2677:of 2571:Low 2460:Low 2351:Low 2246:Low 2061:not 2056:not 1929:Low 1824:Low 1719:Low 1606:Low 1501:Low 1412:Low 1307:Low 1194:Low 1083:Low 826:Low 721:Low 616:Low 511:Low 422:Mid 3329:: 3317:) 3297:) 3293:• 3261:ka 3258:on 3255:El 3242:) 3149:" 3095:" 2883:) 2875:. 2856:) 2842:. 2799:, 2795:, 2784:) 2746:) 2738:. 2727:) 2496:: 2144:— 1230:). 1119:: 238:/ 78:/ 74:/ 70:/ 66:/ 62:: 3313:( 3289:( 3238:( 2990:) 2927:✍ 2879:( 2852:( 2824:✍ 2780:( 2742:( 2723:( 2688:. 2681:? 2603:. 2583:. 2472:. 2438:. 2363:. 2258:. 1941:. 1836:. 1731:. 1697:. 1618:. 1513:. 1424:. 1319:. 1206:. 1095:. 974:. 910:. 838:. 733:. 628:. 523:. 434:. 112:. 42::

Index


content assessment
WikiProjects
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Military history
European
French
Spanish
Medieval
Early Muslim
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Military history WikiProject
list of open tasks
full instructions
B checklist
criteria
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European military history task force
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French military history task force
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Spanish military history task force
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Medieval warfare task force
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Early Muslim military history task force
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Middle Ages
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