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choosing their collaborating nations, not the other way round. I've heard some Poles being proud of that Poles never had "their" SS unit. But would the
Germans propose to make one ? As for the Jewish-Nazi collaboration, we have to remember the scale of the Holocaust. Even if several ten thousand Jews collaborated, this would still be only a small fraction. On the other hand, the collaboration was much more frequent than you'd probably be prepared to accept now. One problem is that it is not really well researched. Most serious historians would not touch this. As you know I've had problems finding good sources, as the reasonable English language sources on Jewish-Nazi collaboration are very scarce. And this is well expectable. E.g. most of the sources that write about Abraham Gancwajch are some obscure Polish nationalistic booklets, that are published in order to fulfill their anti-semitic agenda. Luckily there are also some accounts of the survivors. Finally, the definition of "collaboration" is very vague. Were Polish or Jewish
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891:; there is no proof he ever got Polish citizenship (or discarded his Austrian one), no proof he even spoke Polish (through I'd expect he learned it by 1940s). PS. He was also not 'a person from Warsaw'. He came there as a refugee in 1939/1940; the sources stress his connections to Łódź - and even those are pretty thin. If you can find out where he was born (presumably in Austria) he can be called from that place; people from... categories are for people born in or highly connected with that place; Gancwajch had few connections to Warsaw. --
2511:
Auschwitz are reduced to “sent to
Auschwitz.” As Jews, no matter how “servile” or how much they collaborated, we’re always considered part of the final solution. His (and apparently his family’s) disappearance almost certainly was due to his murder, but this is not mentioned depending on the Knowledge page, instead suggesting his end was more positive by claiming it “unknown.” This is not a lie, but it is disingenuous. The quotes are more negative than those I have seen on pages about murderers of millions of Jews.
1942:
and they stated they prefer not to be linked on Wiki, due to the fact that they have been targeted by Neo-Nazi groups, hate bloggers and other unprincipled groups who use the
Internet as a vehicle to cause discontent and perpetrate otherwise negative activity. I think they would prefer not to have any connection to Wiki one way or the other, but not by being blacklisted or needlessly maligned. I rather enjoy their website and the information it contains, the way it’s presented and the overall look and feel.
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Jewish Ghetto Police-we are going to apply templates of Polish, Lithuanian, Belarussian Nazi
Collaborators to them ? That would be absurd and imprecise. Their relation and significance to collaboration is marked by their Jewish identity not Polish, Lithuanian citizenship. A simple Jewish Nazi Collaborators will do. If they are Polish Nazi Collaborators related to Polish collaborats then they can be also be Jewish Nazi Collaborators.--
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1533:; she was much less Polish than Gancwajch but lots of Poles want to recognize her as French-Polish or Polish-French. As far as this case is concerned, the most important facts are: (1) he was a Polish Jew (besides several other arguments, Gancwajch is obviously a Polish spelling), and (2) he was a Jewish Nazi collaborator. A separate category for Jewish Nazi collaborators is certainly the best solution.
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community members slowly killed. That ostensibly differs from this man, but “self-interest,” in a world where survival is on the line, again plays into the “greedy Jew” stereotype. One shouldn’t conflate Jewish leaders who did what the Nazis wanted to save their own lives and those of others with apparently malicious Jewish leaders.
931:, and ], none of which it seemed even ever lived in Poland. So, citizenship is unquestionably unnecessary. Add any Austrian category you like as well, but this man's notability is indivisibly tied to Warsaw and Poland--that is where all your sources that prove that this article deserves to be in Knowledge are based. --
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I don't think we should use those categories other than Częstochowa (place of his birth) in the article. He worked for a few years in those places. So what? I don't think any
American presidents are noted as 'people from Washington, D.C.' even through they spend the most famous part of their lives in
1941:
They also list the author of the pages and credit sources on all the pages. The site is also partnered with the
Universities in the UK, the US; they have appeared on BBC broadcasts, and given interviews on US news programs. This website is legitimate and highly credible. However I wrote to team there
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I'm always dubious when ownership and in particular copyright status is not unambiguously identified. Whoever registers a site, any credible organisation will have an About page and a copyright statement and - crucially - will not host any content without a clear statement of who owns the copyright
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I think it is certain that he was a Jewish person, I do not think he is classified as ethnic Pole, nor as Polish citizen. Maybe he had a citizenship of Second Polish
Republic but it doesn't seem its important in any way, as his notability concerns his actions as a member of Jewish people in relation
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only notes that "At the beginning of the war, he was in
Czestochowa". All in all it's a mess, it's not clear whether he was Austrian or Polish by birth, where did he live, how was he connected to Czestochowa or Łódź. Claims that he were can be treated as OR, I strongly suggest removing them, noting
2510:
This page certainly contrasts with more positive portrayals of Nazis throughout
Knowledge, where SS officers’ involvement in mass murder is often questioned by Wiki editors, and their constant robbery emphasized in comparison to this “greedy Jew.” Mentions of these collaborators being murdered in
2303:
Allow me for an unnecessary comment here. In every nation there are "good" people and "bad" people. The Jews are no exception here. Neither are Poles nor
Germans. Luckily or not, the Jews did not have so many opportunities to collaborate as other nations. Let's face it, it were the Nazis who were
2198:
Likewise he can't be a Polish Jew without being Jewish. His role in collaboration is marked by his Jewish identity not by Polish citizenship made irrelevant by German occupation. Likewise we have Polish Germans but it would be strange to label Selbstschutz as Polish Nazi Collaborators. What about
2514:
No doubt he was reprehensible, but comments about his “self-interest” are also preposterously vague and give the wrong impression of the Holocaust. Many were driven by self-interest and accused of such, though that included the interest in not being tortured to death and having one’s family and
1762:
What is your interpretation? If we can't verify who is behind the source, I don't see how they qualify as a reliable source, do you? I'm with you, I don't really have any problem thus far with the information on the site, but who is saying it? We don't really know. Do you see anything in the
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Indeed, there is a problem of ethnicity versus nationality. It looks different from American and European perspective. Some nations do not have their country at all but this does not mean they do not exist. I really hate these discussions on ethnic origin - they are so hopelessly unproductive.
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but I have received no reply. Based on how I have seen this category used it is applicable to people 1) born in a given city or 2) who are extremely strongly related to a given place, with the second use being somewhat controversial and not well defined. I don't think Gancwajch classifies as a
2023:
As we have documentation that he was from both Lodz and Częstochowa, I am sure you support those categories. After all, no on is arguing that the Warsaw Ghetto Database is not a reliable source, are they? I have references all the necessary texts to the appropriate notes and records. --
2331:
Then we would have problem with UPA and Lithuanian collaboration -by this way of thinking UPA and Lithuanian movements on former territory of Second Polish Republic should all fall under Polish Nazi Collaborators, since they had Polish citizenship before the war. I don't think this is
1732:
While I agree that the site looks suspicious now (even if I liked it at the first sight, I couldn't clearly see who is the author of the text they publish when I examined it later), I think that your interpretation of whois records is over-generalization of what WP:RS says.
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I'm just pointing out that the memoir seems notable as a reference, since it is used elsewhere. Given that, a mention of this strange "diploma" seems relevant, particularly given what happened to the rabbinate in the WG and the secularisation of some of its functions.
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Piotrus, the definitions of the Polish categories make no mention of the need for citizenship. The proof that this man was Polish are the same sources that prove he was Jewish, so Polish is necessary just as much as Jewish is. For example, compage Gancwajch with
2141:
I agree with Piotrus. Now, we know that he was a Polish Jew. The fact that he travelled to Austria, or even spend some years there does not make him an Austrian Jew. I think the "Austrian" categories should be removed and the "Jewish" categories added instead.
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I find this discussion rather amusing even though lacking common sense. For obvious reasons nobody wants to be associated with such a disreputable character. Things change completely when it as a famous artist or scientist; see for instance the discussion in
2046:
We do not know if he was born in Lodz. I think the attempts to attribute his nationality based on whether he spent some years here or there border on OR and are unnecessary, as they don't bring much value to the article, other than possible confusion.
1332:, Professor of History at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, chairman of the Scientific Council of the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial Institute in Jerusalem, and deputy chairman of the International Auschwitz Council. Therefore a Polish Jew. --
1365:"Pochodził z Częstochowy, był w młodości syjonistą, potem mieszkał w różnych krajach Europy, w chwili wybuchu wojny znajdował się w Łodzi, stał na czele siatki agentów otwarcie powiązanych z SD, służbą bezpieczeństwa i wywiadu SS w Warszawie"
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to the bottom of page 146, Trzynastka (Group 13) is described as "the only known case of a Jewish group, small though it may have been, trying to accommodate the germans on an ideological basis" so it does seem appropriate for this article.
945:
As I pointed out above, Gancwajch spend only a few years of his much longer life in Poland. If a person goes to a foreign country and becomes notable for something done that, that doesn't necessarily mean they are from that country of that
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1832:
Ah, gotcha! In general terms, just briefly, the website registration is probably the most reliable way to identify who a website belongs to, though I'm sure there are other means to verify that would be acceptable.
1108:
Avi, using your logic, there were no Jews before creation of the State of Israel and the Germans during the Holocaust killed Poles, Hungarians, Ukrainians etc, but not Jews. Or perhaps I am wrong (citing your words
1289:, so according to your own logic, he can not be considered Austrian but must be considered Polish. Personally, I think that as he spent a number of years in Vienna, he may be considered both. --
923:, none of whom were born in Poland, none of whom have evidence of Polish citizenship; which is unnecessary, because they all livd notable portions of their life in Poland. Even more egregious are
2359:
I do not doubt they had Polish citizenship. But using this as argument to labal them as Polish collaborators seems not precise and misleading. Should UPA be given that category by this logic ?--
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are unacceptable. If you can replace those with reliable citations or remove the unsourced sentences, I will consider withdrawing the nomination, as the other cites are seemingly acceptable. --
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is one thing, a non-rabbinic reference to something called a "diploma" is completely different. So not only is the reference not helpful, what it refers to is completely ambiguous as well. --
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Again, I think that the "People from..." categories are clear that they do not refer to birth, and this man spent years in Lodz, Vienna, and Częstochowa, but I am open to other comments. --
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After reviewing the cats and the article, I am fine with the current wording (as of Piotrus's correction) of Polish Jewish as well as both sets of cats; so we should all be in agreement. --
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notes he "came back to Poland from Vienna" it does not necessarily mean he was not originally from Vienna (he could have went to Poland once, returned to Austria, gone to Poland again).
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Absolutely. We cant write any text that would directly imply any such thing. I was the one speculating as to why it would be of interest, and a possible reason for the strange phrasing.
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Oh, now I see the 'born in' part of the notes is in the headings above the main text. I agree, that series of notes makes it pretty clear he was most likely born in Częstochowa.--
2312:? Anyway, this is certainly a very difficult issue, and anyone trying to expand this in a balanced way on wikipedia is sure to be stigmatized both anti-Polish and anti-Semite. --
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Since then Polish citizenship is not enough to apply this cat to UPA, or Lithuanian collaborators-why is it ok to apply to Jewish collaborators with Polish citizenship ?--
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The only problem is that if the ownership of the site can't be verified (see the whois link above), it can't be used as a reliable source. Without verification,
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Gutman states? The sources are confusing as they are; we might well be dealing with out of context statement that he spend only some of his life in Czestochowa.--
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I agree with Lysy. In this case Gancwajch is identified ethnicly as Jewish and ethnically/nationally as Polish so it is proper to assign him to both cats. --
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Indeed. There can be no denying his primary ethnicity/nationality/culture was Jewish. Whether Polish was second or third to Austrian, it's hard to tell.--
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For the record (and because it will be handy during CfD discussion that we will see sooner or later), it was not as rare as we would expect or hope. See
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I noticed that they are several articles that fit in that category, including this one. I believe one should be made to avoid imprecise descriptions. --
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We agree on this. My remark was only of a more general nature, regarding the whois database. Not the right place to discuss it here, though, I think. --
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so why should Jewish collaborators or Jewish criminals be different? The current consensus is that of nationality; and he was undoubtedly Polish. --
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Would that mean that we should assign Polish Nazi Collaborators cat to UPA and Lithuanian members with Polish citizenship also ? And if not-why ?--
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It seemed to me also at first glance, though real organizations don't usually set up anonymous websites whose ownership can't be verified. --
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Avi, the categories are there to help organizing information, not to confude people. Please do not add absurd categories to the article. --
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I couldn't agree more. As for Irène Joliot-Curie, I don't see how she could be Polish. Of Polish descent, yes, if that matters. --
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That was deleted back in August. I believe becasue we only carry criminals by nationality and not ethnicity or religion. There is
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Question-will we assign Polish Nazi Collaborators to UPA and Lithuanian members with Polish citizenship also ? And if not-why ?--
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What is a "rabbi diploma"? The source, Jonas Turkow, is a personal memoir, not a historian. Can you please find better sourcing?
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731:. Any link between the Warsaw Ghetto rabbinate and Gancwajch based on a phantom diploma mentioned in a personal memoir would be
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Lysy, current wikipedia philosophy is that "Jewish" is a contentious intersection with occupations, as per the AfD's such as
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Indeed that category is missing.We should create one for historic organisations and people, who engaged in such activity--
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Question: if the memoir has been quoted elsewhere in scholarly sources, does that mean it is acceptable in this instance?
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There's no doubt that many Ukrainians had Polish citizenship. This was internationally recognized, see e.g. the case of
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require birth in the city? If he was a member of the Warsaw criminal scene, that surely makes him from Warsaw, no? --
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and is unacceptable as a source as far as policy is concerned, regardless of how good the information might seem. --
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is missing. It's not clear if he was Polish or not, but he certainly was a Jew, so maybe this would solve it ? --
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www.holocaustresearchproject.org appears to be a blacklisted hyperlink for the spam filter. Investigating... --
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clearly states "came to Poland from Austria in 1936" which would indicate he was originally from Austria. While
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He came to Poland in 1936 from Austria at the age of at least 20-something. At that point he was certainly an
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I guess we can just say that he had this diploma. This should be sufficient. Not sure if he can be added to
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2476:? Did they collaborate with the Nazis ? Each case was different and there is no single fit-all solution. --
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He was 'passing by'. I have asked some time ago what are the specific rules governing those categories (
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1204:. Nazi collaborators is an exception due to the special place Jews have in the holocaust, I belive. --
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I'm aware of the ambiguity, but that in itself is a matter unrelated to the reliability of the source.
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chapter "Warsaw's Multi-Ethnic Criminals, the Polish Right, and Other Matters" in this academic review
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If he's a "Polish" Jew, which the sources seem to indicate, then he also belongs to the specific cat
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He would belong to both, I agree with your argument about precise descriptions, add him to both. --
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So should we add 'people from' Częstochowa, Łodź, Vienna and Warsaw to him? Sound a bit too much.--
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There is some confusion as to where Gancwajch was born, with conflicting records indicating either
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
2507:“Abraham Gancwajch was probably shot in Pawiak prison with his wife and son during April 1943.”
2350:. They were not deported to Soviet Union after the war only because they were Polish citizens. --
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2106:, so that is pretty clear. What bothers you if he is also listed in Lodz, Vienna, or Warsaw? --
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policy pages that allows the use of an anonymous (or unverified) source as a reliable source? --
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He was from Poland, lived in Warsaw and Lodz, and all the sources you brought confirm this.
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2434:. He should be assigned to both cats, and if they don't exist, they should be created.--
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Jewish Nazi collaborators is as valid a category as Polish Nazi collaborators, just as
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the confusing sources in a note, and sticking to only verifiable claim: he was a Jew.--
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Notes and text have been sourced to the appropriate Warsaw Ghetto Database records. --
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Well, the Warsaw Ghetto Database has four or five records saying he was born in
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for this purpose. In fact I was surprised when I found there was none. --
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Jonas Turkow "C´etait ainsi. 1939-1943 la vie dans le ghetto de Varsovie"
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has dozens of counterexamples, which apparently are doing quite fine. --
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article ? Seriously, though, you have a valid point. What about Polish
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lists the founders and owner of the holocaustresearchproject website.
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Four or five records (brought in the footnote) bring the birthplace as
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and by what permission it is hosted if it was not originally theirs.
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gives some background on his time in Vienna, he went to Poland after
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Avil, for "wikipedia philosophy" check out e.g. the subcategories of
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The article is actually getting fixed nicely. However, sites such as
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column on 3 February 2008, and was viewed approximately 4,124 times (
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are pretty the same useless imho, but at least they are more PC. --
217:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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The cat probably didn't exist because it didn't occur very often.
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I don't know but I doubt it. Why don't you discuss this in the
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those places; that doesn't mean he was actually born there.--
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http://www.holocaustresearchproject{dot}org/aboutus.html
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and its various subcategories are valid equivalents of
486:. Please replace this template with a more specific
402:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
300:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
820:is reserved for Nazis. The proper category here is
1492:. It's pretty clear, so I have fixed the text. --
887:. I don't think 3 years in Poland made him into a
436:This article has not yet received a rating on the
2178:. He can't be a Polish Jew and not be Polish. --
839:Per my post below, I dispute the "Polish" part.--
1984:Category talk:People by city#From or related to?
1271:Same website shows he is Polish and not Austrian
2503:Bias: Jewish Collaborators vs Sympathetic Nazis
2559:Low-importance Jewish history-related articles
1617:It's a shame. The site seemed professional. --
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2374:Discussing citizenship is even worse. :-( --
2554:Start-Class Jewish history-related articles
1414:the note claiming he came to Poland in 1936
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2584:Knowledge requested images of journalists
1658:I have asked for it to be unblacklisted (
1412:(which occured in 1938; this contradicts
1275:According to the Warsaw ghetto database,
686:You can bring up the general question at
501:may be able to locate suitable images on
84:). The text of the entry was as follows:
1595:. I will remove it from the article. --
109:Knowledge:Recent additions/2008/February
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2574:Unknown-importance Journalism articles
2275:. Lysy has just created an article on
1464:Incorrect. We have sources stating he
2438:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
2286:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
2126:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
2082:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
1995:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
1665:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
1510:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
1472:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
1429:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
1349:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
1173:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
1093:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
1040:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
950:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
895:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
843:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
599:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
107:A record of the entry may be seen at
96:was one of the most prominent Jewish
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1392:Those notes are somewhat confusing.
396:This article is within the scope of
314:Knowledge:WikiProject Jewish history
294:This article is within the scope of
203:This article is within the scope of
2564:WikiProject Jewish history articles
1587:is why it is blacklisted. Also, a
1238:I think it would be racist to have
317:Template:WikiProject Jewish history
149:It is of interest to the following
2235:Category:Jewish Nazi collaborators
2176:Category:Polish Nazi collaborators
972:Category:Jewish Nazi collaborators
822:Category:Polish Nazi collaborators
14:
1420:states: "came from Czestochowa",
1328:Indeed, he came from Częstochowa
775:http://www.jewishtribalreview.org
499:Openverse Creative Commons Search
115:
1661:). Feel free to comment there.--
623:That was exactly my question. --
581:". Does it make him a rabbi ? --
524:
416:Knowledge:WikiProject Journalism
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2539:Knowledge Did you know articles
2308:Nazi collaborators ? How about
1694:it has similar status to a blog
818:Category:Holocaust perpetrators
419:Template:WikiProject Journalism
334:This article has been rated as
320:Jewish history-related articles
227:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography
26:This article was nominated for
2549:WikiProject Biography articles
2544:Start-Class biography articles
1161:The only missing thing ATM is
230:Template:WikiProject Biography
1:
779:http://www.lastsuperpower.net
759:17:59, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
745:15:02, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
721:13:07, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
700:00:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
682:18:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
667:17:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
642:14:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
410:and see a list of open tasks.
308:and see a list of open tasks.
2495:22:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
2481:22:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
2464:22:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
2449:21:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
2421:22:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
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2034:18:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
2016:18:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
2006:18:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
1977:17:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
1892:10:04, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
1849:19:31, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
1808:19:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
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1738:18:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
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1676:18:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
1646:17:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
1622:17:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
1611:17:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
1579:17:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
1553:13:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
1543:11:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
1521:19:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
1502:18:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
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1299:18:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
1255:19:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
1214:18:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
1202:Category:Christian criminals
1194:Category:Caucasian criminals
1184:17:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
1145:15:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
1123:01:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
1104:18:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
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1072:16:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
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1016:15:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
994:16:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
979:14:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
961:16:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
941:15:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
929:Ivo Pedro Krenczynski Welter
906:13:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
878:13:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
854:13:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
834:13:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
806:15:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
791:00:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
628:09:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
619:06:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
610:13:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
586:20:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
215:contribute to the discussion
1965:Category:People from Warsaw
1958:Category:People from Warsaw
1034:Category:Jews by occupation
1022:Category:Jews by occupation
796:Withdrawn; thank y'all. --
2600:
2525:16:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
1330:according to Israel Gutman
1248:Category:Israeli criminals
1190:Category:Israeli criminals
438:project's importance scale
340:project's importance scale
297:WikiProject Jewish history
2155:Jewish Nazi Collaborators
1952:02:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
1404:states he was from Łódź.
1244:Category:Polish criminals
1240:Category:Jewish criminals
1198:Category:Latino criminals
1167:Category:Polish criminals
1163:Category:Jewish criminals
866:Knowledge is not censored
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466:It is requested that an
66:appeared on Knowledge's
1531:Talk:Irène Joliot-Curie
1080:I agree with Molobo. --
1062:to German occupation.--
2432:Category:Polish people
1286:he came back to Poland
495:Free Image Search Tool
488:media request template
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399:WikiProject Journalism
139:This article is rated
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44:Withdrawn by nominator
1991:for more comments? --
1559:Blacklisted hyperlink
1165:as a counterpart for
461:
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118:
100:and criminals in the
1192:for example but not
653:Acceptable as what?
505:and other web sites.
735:, would it not? --
579:had a rabbi diploma
484:improve its quality
482:in this article to
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1989:Talk:Warsaw
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917:Maria Orska
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28:deletion
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512:Upload
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