Talk:Alex Jones/Archive 5 - Knowledge (XXG)

371:

ballooned to 4 trillion by 2004, responding to questioning by Cynthia Mckinney? Can you deny that Mike Hulme, who worked in the IPCC, admitted that the consensus of climate change was manufactured by 12 kept scientists? (National Post) Can you deny that Robert Capps of Salon reported that the whistleblowers who reported that Dyncorp was involed in child trafficking were vindicated in every way, despite being harassed by DynCorp? Can you deny that DynCorp remains one of the US Govs top contractors in spite of this? These are the issues that Jones covers and he presents copious documentation, both video documentation and press documentation. You imply that he is a conspiracy nut regardless. Just my afforementioned examples should be enough to make you think twice and reconsider the biased article on Jones, but it's your job to make sure the article stays biased and Wiki promotes the official gov. line. This isn't a theory either. It is the only way to account for Knowledge (XXG)'s obstinate refusal to present credible evidence on anything that defies the official lies, while only reporting articles that ridicule dissenters. There are articles for Wiki's precious 'reliable' (read well-funded) sources that give credibility to dissenters, but Wiki selectively ignores these and only prints the hackwork, even if they come from editorials. Wiki prints op-eds published in major media as though they represent anything but the opinion of the writer, and presents that as evidence from a reliable source! So don't come to me with that nonsense about Knowledge (XXG) being fact and evidence based. On sensitive topics, I can ovrwhelm you with evidence that you will refuse to acknowledge because your job is really to push the gov. story. And it's flagrantly obvious.

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have most probably stayed on the website of the SPLC, had it not been imported into Knowledge (XXG). By directly importing opinions from primary sources into articles on Knowledge (XXG) we bestow notability which otherwise might not have happened. This is why in order to import any such commentary into an article it should have been first covered and analysed by external press sources. Doing so would have ensured its notability and relevance. The solution is not to scour the internet for any negative commentary from sources of doubtful notability and then import it into a BLP article. This is a very low threshold of inclusion and it makes a mockery out of our BLP policy. The above flaws only get even more exacerbated if the BLP article links to the reference and the reader upon reading the reference material further, gets introduced to more attacks like "red faced tirades" etc. I think doing so is disingenuous on our part, because although we do not include these remarks in the article, we provide the link to the readers, so in effect we wink and nudge the reader to read the whole article at the external website. If this is what BLP has come to I want no part of it.

1859:'s article lists: Republican (1976 - 1988) followed by Libertarian (1988 Presidential Election) and then Republican (1988 - Present). If some reasonably accurate dates can be discerned from sources, we then might be able to do similar for Alex Jones: Republican (Year of his campaign) and Libertarian (YYYY - Present). However, I don't think there's anything erroneous about the article the way it is. Further characterization of Alex Jones's libertarian views is certainly welcome in the article - I just don't see the reason for the strong push to remove Republican party affiliation from the infobox. I think that running for office on a Republican platform is considerably more notable than whether third parties associate Jones with the libertarian party. Also, keep in mind that not all libertarians are associated with the Libertarian party. Many libertarians who are Ron Paul supporters are not even aware of who the actual Libertarian party candidate was in the 2008 presidential election (contrary to popular belief, it was 968:

Jones continually tries to educate people to what he terms the "left-right paradigm". whether you believe this or not - it is a fact. This needs to be cleared up immediately. It is ANTI encyclopedic. In his own words he "avoids the bogus political labels of “left and right” and instead focuses on what really matters — what’s right and wrong." - he never supports or encourages so-called "right wingers" or "right wing politics" and he "concentrates on destroying the false 'left-right paradigm' " - just look at his websites www.prisonplanet.com and www.infowars.com for what he describes HIMSELF as. THIS IS INCREDIBLY unprofessional to say or imply by others opinions that he is "right wing". Even if repeating what uneducated people have said - it gives the impression to people who don't know Alex Jones that he is. Would it be correct to describe George Bush as a school teacher because he read a book about goats to some school kids and then provide a "SOURCE" with some video of him reading as proof.

1535:. The BLP policy prescribes important directives for editors to follow that make sense for the Wikimedia Foundation's legal matters, however I feel BLP is often invoked as a copout on many BLP articles on controversial figures. Past editors have removed edits that, even when well-sourced, were perceived by them as biased. We must channel the biases from reliable sources, but many editors mistake a source's bias for an editor's bias. Nevertheless, the parts of the article that do characterize Jones's views (such as in the lede) are well-sourced and properly included by saying "described as such and such." One problem is that the article needs more reliable sources. Most of the discourse on Alex Jones is within the realm of news and media, however I have found a few peer-reviewed articles in academic journals that do describe him to a point. Though there are some parts of the article that don't fully encompass Jones, I don't feel like the entire article is a whitewash written by Jones's followers. 319:

could go on and on. Aurthur Rubin could not possibly be this consistently wrong about Jones unless he were running active interference. It requires the active denial of evident facts. It does not matter because anyone who becomes an Alex listener understands that the Web is loaded with interference agents and dupes. The only question is which one Rubin is. Rubin might say that "reliable" (anything prominent he and the rest of the UTC punks call reliable) sources call him a conspiracy theorist, but people with brains and integrity understand that MAINSTREAM does not automatically imply honesty and reliability. More people now get their news from alternative sources and the mainstream is actually dying, giving the lie to this assumption. UTC Wikipedists are virtually the only people who pretend that there is a consensus on the accuracy of the Big Media. The reverse is closer to the truth.

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content from the article or distort its meaning. I've already said within this thread that a resolution to this content dispute would be to note a year beside the party name. I gave an example of Ron Paul's article, which lists him as Republican (1976 - 1988) and then as Libertarian (1988 Presidential Election) and then as Republican (1988 - Present). We could do something similar with Alex Jones, but we need reliable sources regarding Jones' current affiliation (or lack thereof). Then we could put Republican (2000) and _Whatever_ (???? - Present). We just need the reliable sources and relevant dates. Nobody seems willing to have pursued this and I am rather busy at present.

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He was born April 30, 1912, in Hastings, Okla. He had farmed in the Loop area for many years and was a member of Loop School Board, Co-op Gin and was a deacon of Primitive Baptist Church in Brownfield. He married Mildred Irene Wright on Jan. 29, 1935, in Roswell, N.M. She died Oct. 30, 1984. Other survivors include two sons, Ross and Perry Jones, both of Seagraves; a brother, Glenn Jones of Waco; a sister, Judy Taylor of Fairfield, Calif.; eight grandchildren; 11 great-grandchildren; and two great-great-grandchildren.

2330:

Tom Harrison undid my deletion. I posted this on Tom Harrison's talk page in an effort to clear up the matter, and would like to post here as well: If you can ascertain the definition of a "promotional biography" and then categorize his biography as such (with reliable sources), then please, by all means, correct me. If it is your opinion that it is a "promotional biography," then that is another matter. Knowledge (XXG) is a source for information, not misinformation. Thank you.

813:. As for his family, we'd need reliable sources to support assertions about anti-semitic sentiments towards Jones relating to his wife's heritage. For his father and his claims about ancestral participation in the Civil War (probably a significant chunk of multi-generation Americans have distant ancestors that fought in the Civil War, tbh, so maybe it's not even that notable), Jones could be used as a source for his own claims (preferably a written source and not a video). 31: 486:

that we want this page to be fair. I dont believe in everything Jones says, but we should make a nonbiased more detailed wiki page. So as long as stuff is from a REAL LEGITIMATE source and not some homemade angelfire page and as long as it pertains to the general info on Alex Jones it should be put up here without slamming Alex Jones, or promoting Alex Jones, just simply stating what he's done and what he promotes. - iscream22

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necessarily be getting defensive by simply offering a response (in this case, an alternative point of view). For example, I can insist I'm an atheist without anyone ever questioning that I am or typecasting me as a theist. So I disagree that the statement was unencyclopedic. Putting that aside, I edited the article to remove the statement you drew attention to, on grounds that it cites a dubious source (a YouTube video), per

2433:, or 2001-present instead of 2003-present, etc.? Including later party affiliations is a good idea, but a reliable source is still needed at a minimum and none has so far been provided. I looked several months back, but didn't have any luck. And no, Infowars.com is not a reliable source. I don't think anyone here is trying to paint Alex Jones as a present-day Republican (e.g. I do not think he is one), but the 118: 1757:, well-known for his libertarian points of view, but whose political party affiliation is Republican nonetheless. Further, the article already gives credence to Jones' self-identification with libertarianism and paleoconservatism, so I'm not so sure why such a number of editors have come to the article over time seeking to have his political affiliation changed. That it says 1382: 1312: 1819: 1383:

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/85990051.html?dids=85990051:85990051&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Oct+26%2C+2001&author=Paul+Duggan&pub=The+Washington+Post&edition=&startpage=A.22&desc=Austin+Hears+the+Music+And+Another+New+Reality%3B+In+Texas+Cultural+Center%2C+People+Prepare+to+Fight+Terror

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being, we could denote his party affiliation in this way: Republican (2000); I should think that would help alleviate any readers' concerns. Nevertheless, I am puzzled by why Jones supporters so often attempt to change that infobox while ignoring how the article already covers Jones's libertarianism and paleoconservatism, as if having

1502:

Knowledge (XXG) has a duty to provide unbiased information, but it also has a duty to provide the truth and the whole story. This entire article needs reworking to show portray a honest picture of Alex Jones because at the minute it looks like it, and most probably was, written exclusively by followers of The Alex Jones Show.

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shocked to see NOTHING on that, as well as the rest of his info.(Other than IMDB type stuff.) Can this be fixed, because A LOT of stuff about him isn't on here, specially the controversial/poor("bad") light stuff that isn't kissing his butt or proclaiming him God's gift to the Earth. Thanks for any help on this matter. :)

2062:

Yes, please sign your posts by typing four tildes at the end of your comment before saving the page. Why should biosphere conspiracy theory be included? Do you have reliable sources that suggest Alex Jones embraces biosphere conspiracy theories? I'm sure he embraces many things, but in order for them

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which removed sourced content that Jones campaigned for office as a Republican. I went ahead and purchased a $ 5.95 24-hour subscription to the Austin American-Statesman archives to obtain and save a copy of the full-text article that is cited to support Jones's affiliation with the Republican party.

1913:

As I've said in this thread and in the thread that follows this one, it doesn't matter that his affiliation has changed. It doesn't change the fact that he campaigned as a Republican candidate for a political office. You are welcome to contribute, but I will revert any attempts to remove this sourced

1752:

Whether or not an L is capitalized seems like a pretty wobbly leg on which to base any kind of argument. The matter of fact is that Jones ran for a political office on a Republican ticket. That establishes his party affiliation. It doesn't matter that the source article for that is from 2000, because

485:

Hello, this is my first time visiting the discussion page of Alex Jones wiki. Theres a lot of general info on the wiki page but little info about him growing up or his claims on what he believes in = 911 truth, bilderberg, criticism of the Bush and Obama administrations etc. Now all of us can agree

441:

All of these are topics that Jones discusses frequently. Jones cites such sources, and the same could be said for Jones' other topics of his show. UTC Rubin's assertions that Jones does not back up what he says and engages in pure speculation reflect nothing except his prejudice and ignorance. The

370:

This is the sort of dishonest arrogance that makes people dismiss Knowledge (XXG) out of hand. Can you deny that CBS reported that Don Rumsfeld announced on Sept. 10th 2001(!) that the Pentagon was missing 2.3 trillion dollars? Can you deny that Rumsfeld testified before Congress that the number had

322:

Knowledge (XXG) and Mr. Rubin are just one of a long list of obstacles to bringing out real info. They are just one cog in a large propaganda machine when it comes to sensitive issues. The way they push the official lines and marginalize any dissent as conspiracism is disgusting. Thankfully, it is

251:

Any additions to this page are immediately removed by a couple of users who are, it seems, relatively hardline Jones minions. It has become impossible to discuss any of the many controversies around Jones (eg the parking lot incident, the john gray affair, Jones connection to the extreme right, Jones

2748:

LOOP - Funeral services for Bryan Jones, 84, father of Joyce Wright of Sunnyside, will be at 2 p.m. Friday in Connally Funeral Home Chapel in Seagraves with the Rev. Chuck Sammons officiating. Burial will be in Loop Cemetery by Connally Funeral Home. Mr. Jones died Tuesday, Nov. 5, 1996, in Lubbock.

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I agree that the source is not primary and that clear attribution nullifies concerns over the contents of the opinion. On an irrelevant note, is it an attack to describe someone who goes on a rant while shouting and expressing anger or frustration to the extent that their face turns a little red, as

1644:

Alex Jones is an alien. Why nobody sees the truth? Alex Jones is extremist left-wing on Mondays, Tuesdays and Saturdays. On Wednesdays he is a conspiracy theorist. On Thursdays Alex Jones is a Nazi-libertarian. On Fridays the man is a father. On Sundays he rests. This article is a compliment to Alex

808:

I don't see how you're arriving at your interpretation of that statement. What about it implies that he's defensive? When other sources apply labels to describe something about you or your activities, isn't it natural to "insist" whatever label or description you think is most accurate? You wouldn't

466:

Please state any place in the article which "insinuates that Jones is some paranoid nut". It seems pretty NPOV to me. You are correct that a WP article should not make such assertions (although it might quote someone who does). Similarly, I don't see anything in the article that states that Jones

395:

I don't know about John Shandy, but I can deny it simply because you haven't provided the references. I have no idea if any of the abve things you're claiming are true, because you aren't giving verifications. If you would kindly start a new section at the bottom of the page (the correct place for

2091:

Jones caused a stir when he did a segment calling the 2011 Norway bombing and shooting carried out by Anders Breivik as a "false flag operation". Even normal viewers were turned off by it, most people were disgusted by it. I think this should be included as one of his controversies, particularly as

1133:

The Mercury and Sentinel cites are too vague to verify. Consequently they fail WP:V. WSJ is WP:RS. However 1 source is insufficient to support this label. Contentious labels require solid source. If someone wants to add, let's say 2 more refs, we'll put the label back. Until then, label removed per

967:

This article needs to remove the claim that Alex Jones is "Right wing" or represents right wing, or even that people SAY he is right wing. This is clearly false. ANYONE who has ever read or heard Alex Jones for more than 30 seconds would KNOW that it is false to call Alex Jones "right wing". Alex

907:

Well he is on record in his videos, which are also accessible through his various websites. I do not visit his website, but he publishes articles there and announces his radio guest, might as well publish his claims and personal attacks there too. Looking forward to the addition of this position of

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time and time again, much on the backs of flaky arguments. The next best thing to a bulleted list of Jones' beliefs is probably his very own www.infowars.com InfoWars.com] or www.prisonplanet.com PrisonPlanet.com]. Further, I found that the blog linked to in the above discussion on this talk page

566:

I'm turning on auto-archiving for this talk page--it's quite excessive now, nearly impossible to find active discussions, and new users sometimes reply to outdated threads (instead of starting new ones that will actually be seen and responded to). I've set it to archive threads after 45 days of no

541:

I'm not saying their necessarily needs to be controversial or negative comments about Alex or his program, i'm simply saying that there should be more info on the general topics he discusses on his program as to give readers more examples of what kind of things they can expect to find on his show.

2606:

Thank you Malerooster for the support. However this will not change things. The piece is still in the article. Until BLP gets enforced more rigorously I just give up on this article and perhaps any other article as well. This is a BLP-enforcement problem and it certainly is not mine. Best regards.

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Let's forget about the technicalities if that opinion is an attack piece or not. The mechanics of bringing this piece into the article are substandard; actually let me rephrase: they suck. Let me explain. This opinion piece most probably would have been ignored by the mainstream media and it would

2329:

I noticed that his biography was presented as a "promotional biography". Since there is no clear definition of what constitutes a "promotional biography" versus a "non-promotional biography," this adjective adds no value to the page and may actually mislead readers. I deleted it, but Daffyduck and

1239:

For those who are concerned that Alex Jones is being labelled, "right-wing", "conspiracy theorist" all this mess this article is, don't bother. This article is so absurd that it surely will make more people visit his site. Anyone can see that this is infamous and infamy is something that everybody

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The CIA might not be responsible for your edits, but your claims that he presents no evidence to back up his claims are absolute lies. Jones sources the SPP, ehich EXISTS. He sources articles in the Guardian and Bloomberg regarding Government involvement in drug trafficking. These too EXIST. I

781:

In the opening blurb, this line: "Jones has also insisted that his radio show is non-partisan." is not encyclopaedic. This plainly implies that Jones is in a defensive position regarding his non-partisan position. If the non-partisan position is going to be mentioned here, there should be sources

2239:

Mezlo, please see the first two sections on this talk page which discuss why this content should not be removed. In fact, I proposed a workaround, but nobody (including myself) seems to have been able to produce a timeframe for his Republican affiliation in order to use my solution. For the time

400:). Also, if you know of any cases where op-eds are being used to verify factual claims, please bring them up on that article's talk page, or on ], because our policy says that we're not supposed to do that (although there are exceptions for people who are widely recognized as experts; i.e., if 1501:

I cannot believe this article describes Alex Jones the way it does, presenting him as just a normal radio host and saying he has been "described as a conspiracy theorist". Alex Jones does not deny his belief in conspiracy theories, he is a conspiracy theorist in every definition of the phrase.

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Just for the record, I don't know how to edit etc, so please don't ask me to do link stuff etc, cuz I don't know how. I was wondering why, when there is so much info out there on it, that there is nothing here on A.J's creation of public persona/involvement with/in Project Mockingbird? I was

2768:

I was researching this article for a school assignment and I'm confused as to why Content that was challenged has been allowed to stay in the article despite a complete failure at satisfying the Knowledge (XXG) rules like undue. Am I missing something? I'm referring to the discussion between

1863:, not Ron Paul). I've noticed on articles for a number of politicians who have shifted their affiliation over time have multiple party affiliations listed, denoted by dates and ranges. Would others consider this a viable compromise? The next step would be finding the most appropriate dates. 467:

doesn't back up what he says. Maybe that was expressed here by some editor, but that's not what the article says. So, again, my point is that you need to state specifically what it is that you think needs to be changed in the article, because I'm not seeing what you see the problem is.

1890:

So because he was Running for some rep thing in 2000 he is marked as Republican in end of 2011. Its well known that he is opposing both Parties and he never was involved directly into Politics for over 10 Years. I will try to delete that false statement that he is Republican now!

2358:

Daffyduck (lol) The reason it is promotional is because it is being used to promote his show on their (the writers) radio station. If someone wrote about Mr. Jones without gaining a direct benefit (ie. publicity for a show) then it would be simply a biography. With your last edit

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On his family. His father is David Ross Jones, a dentist. He attests that he has ancestors who fought in the Civil War. He is married to Kelly Nichols, who is of Jewish heritage. He is attacked by people who believe Jews control / have an overwhelming influence on world events.

542:

And yeah sure get some direct quotes from Alex himself too. Perhaps some info on his criticism of Obama, or the 9/11 truth movement, or the NWO. Because in a whole the wikipedia page for Alex just pretty much states he has a show, makes films, and people regard him as a

1043:

he says "Hugo Chavez... is right" and complains about the "military industrial complex" that serves the "Fortune 100" instead of "the people." How can he be identified as "conservative" if he is more interested in overthrowing the establishment than in defending

706:

Somewhere there was an online list of Alex Jones' whacked out beliefs about America and the world, ranging from the notion that feminism is a communist plot, to the idea that interchanges on toll roads are deliberatley set 50 miles apart. I know it violates

1403:

So, instead of: "Mainstream news sources have referred to him as conservative, and a conspiracy theorist.", why not: "Mainstream news sources have referred to him as conservative, articulate, sometimes hypnotic, exuberant and a conspiracy theorist."

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726:

Unfortunately I don't have a link and am unfamiliar with it. However, I'd comment that if it were by chance a reliable source, by a notable party, it would be appropriate to channel the source's point of view, which in and of itself wouldn't violate

396:

new points) that includes links, or at least publication info for these claims, along with exactly how you think this should cause us to change the article, then we can consider including them (of course, keeping in mind that we don't publish

2591:

I basically agree with this assesment. I removed the external link since its already linked to in the citation. I would also question if this material rises to the level worthy of inclusion. I arrived here from the BLP board for disclosure.

890:

I'm afraid we'd need a reliable source specifically for the "Big Oil" reference, and a source referring to "Big Oil" is unlikely to be reliable, in general. However, we should be able to find a reference for all except the last sentence of

2302:

Yea, it seems like an unnecessary sentence given the one that precedes it. I'll remove it, though I'm not sure why you were unable to. I think the semi-protection only prevents anonymous editors (unregistered IPs) from editing the article.

1753:

nothing changes the fact that he was a Republican party candidate at that time. Whether his views are libertarian or not are secondary (how articles characterize his views is irrelevant to his party affiliation). A similar example would be

2217:(and hardly anyone else) says he predicted 9/11 in July 2001. We might list the fact that he claims to have made a prediction, but without a 3rd party reliable source, we cannot say in Knowledge (XXG)'s voice that he did predict 9/11. — 236:

So, why not help improve it? Careful, though. You have to back up information you add with sources. There are certain standards for sources - and the ones for articles about living people are higher than those for the rest of the site.

2634:

I was puzzled as to why the lead didn't say anything about his politics, and found a paragraph in an earlier version that does, which I've restored. As it stood the lead was too short, leaving out material that should be in the lead.

941:; nor "supports the orchestrated campaigns of Big Oil". If he explicitly calls "environmental stewardship" a "Nazi plot", we could probably use that, but the general rule would be we would need a reliable source which notes that. — 2441:

guidelines serve an important purpose here. At any rate, it's not like the Infobox white-washes the content in the article that already covers Jones's self-identification as a libertarian, paleoconservative, and constitutionalist.

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also transparent and nobody would trust Knowledge (XXG) in anything remotely controversial. Congratulations to dupes and/or hacks like Rubin for destroying Knowledge (XXG)'s cred. We would have had a difficult time without him.

1426:

I disagree that it was any malicious intent or bias on the part of editors to truncate some of the extra elaboration, but the point of view of the source itself should be appropriately channeled to the article in accordance with

1205:

was insufficiently justified, but I agree that it was weakly sourced with articles whose URLs became dead links (and as such, despite searching those news sites, nobody can verify the contents of those sources). I have restored

149:, that contain detailed information on his early life, incidents that helped shape his political and world views, as well as insights into his current standings that seem to be missing from the Knowledge (XXG) entry. 908:

Alex Jones. He echoes the same remarks as from the fossil fuel talking heads (which are all debunked i.e. see skepticalscience.com for debunked arguments by actual scientists) and takes care to not go into detail.

1255:

On the contrary, the article is quite favorable to Jones. We've been working to keep out the allegations that "his people" beat up a reporter at a rally, with Jones cheering, even though available on video. —

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call him "Republican". These are current cites. The paywalled cite is from 2000, and should be carefully examined for what it states. Meanwhile, I concur that "Libertarian" per the LA Times is correct. Even

664:

Can you point us to sources on the internet for some of this "missed stuff"? We need news articles, reliable magazines, etc.--note that we cannot take information from blogs or other self-published websites.

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on the basis that it had many citations for the lead. Perhaps we can rephrase the lead part and leave the citations out from the lead. Alternatively we can remove the recently created "reception" section.

2471:. The SPLC is clearly not a primary source, and there is no problem with using opinion so long as it is clearly shown to be opinion and well cited - even if it is florid. The text should be restored. 280:

Grumble. I've been removing unsourced anti-Jones nonsense and unsource pro-Jones nonsense. You cannot rationally assume that people removing the anti-Jones nonsense are necessarily pro-Jones. —

1797:. The current use of "Libertarian" by the LA Times stands as a reliable source. I can find zero recent (even pretty non-recent) cites asserting that he is a registered Republican. Cheers. 1006:

This part of the article is well sourced and balanced, discussing both how Jones is described by others and how he describes himself. Both sides of this are encyclopedic and merit inclusion.

1311:." Ref. 9: Duggan, Paul (2001-10-26). "Austin Hears the Music And Another New Reality; In Texas Cultural Center, People Prepare to Fight Terror" (Fee required). Washington Post: p. A22. 431:

Dyncorp rewarded by Pentagon despite (really because of) trafficking in women and children. Also Dyncorp contracted for keeping the books of the Pentagon that loses trillions per year.

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What an incredible failure to be unbiased. In my eyes, it's -500 points for you guys. I can fill a cup with water, and it's still a better editor than those found here. At least it's

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Ref. 9: Duggan, Paul (2001-10-26). "Austin Hears the Music And Another New Reality; In Texas Cultural Center, People Prepare to Fight Terror" (Fee required). Washington Post: p. A22.

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What an incredible failure to be unbiased. In my eyes, it's -500 points for you guys. I can fill a cup with water, and it's still a better editor than those found here. At least it's

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support what this wiki article says (GOP = Republican Party). Whether Jones's affiliation has changed is a separate matter, requiring reliable sources supplied with full citations.

2813:

Once we've established that the material is actually referenced in the source, we must not give it more presence than is appropriate due to its influence among reliable sources. (

1625:

The youTube channel of Alex Jones is heavenly censored, i guess one of the biggest censor list on youTube. Point out the flaws in his reasoning and you get banned from commenting.

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Greetings, 68.197.236.146. Here in reality, we use evidence and reliable sources to support claims. When you present some that withstands tests and scrutiny, we'll talk. Good day.

2491:? The word choice could possibly be a bit softer, but there are videos of Jones performing what could certainly be described as red faced tirades, so I think it's reasonable. The 2425:. My suggestion for compromise was to denote the years of affiliation. However, it's incorrect to just make stuff up, like "Independent (2001-present)" - how can you substantiate 1717:

Infowars, the website of Libertarian radio host Alex Jones, was crammed with stories charging that the U.S. government had concocted the killing to justify a security crackdown.

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It looks like an IMDB page, simple bio, movie credits, links, I get MUCH more from a very simple google search, there is no reason for me to look at this article as it is now.

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A source can be reliable only if the reputation of the publisher or author indicates reliablity, and that reliability can be challenged if the source is wrong (contradicted by

1035:

The article should explain how someone who is so hostile to the Pentagon is "right wing." He's beloved by conspiracy-loving leftists, just watch some of his appearances on

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tone of the article, which constantly insinuates that Jones is some paranoid nut, should reflect this. I might make some changes myself in a section titled "Vindications"

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the content of the article in any way, but it is accurate. Likewise, his specific views do not trump his established political party affiliation. There's no conflict here.

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That source is dubious at best. It appears to be self-published and definitely not mainstream or notable. Do you have a source that rises to Knowledge (XXG)'s standards on

2547:

Yea, I can't comment on the notability of SPLC. I have been familiar with them for a few years now, but I haven't any idea about their reach or the impact of their work.

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to his shows and agrees to their debunked claims about about climate science. With this stance he supports the orchestrated campaigns of Big Oil and contradicts himself.

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conspiracy theorist (which in a way he IS) but I think the page could certainly use some expansion, thats all. And a little more biographical info would be good too.

2273:

In the Legal section, the sentence "The programmers made their views known via radio broadcast and websites" seems to have no relevance to this page. I'll remove it.

2121:. Are there any national newspapers or other mainstream sources that confirm viewers' or listeners' distaste with Alex Jones's allegation of a false flag operation? 2244:

in the infobox has somehow detracted from Jones's prevalent political leanings. To remove it outright however, is to remove sourced content in a very selective and

2117:

This might be notable. However, we need a better source to demonstrate the notability and reliability of this. We can't rely on YouTube videos as sources, per

1157: 171:

Add "Ted Anderson owns Genesis Communications Network (Jones' distributor) and Midas Resources (Jones' primary sponsor), specializing in gold and silver coins.

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I too am aware of his stances toward climate change and environmental politics, but unfortunately we need a reliable source (YouTube is inadequate, per

525:, or, if not promotional, from Alex's own statements. It's not just "anglefire" (or the former geocities) pages which need to be looked at closely. — 2367:. I will leave it as is for now until more editors weigh in but trying bullying tactics will not win the argument. A little decorum goes a long way. -- 1083:, which is right-wing. It is accurate to describe Jones as right-wing, but it must be considered in a reliable context. Considering the fact that the 2141:

There maybe more truth in it, then "most viewers" did think tough, but I think that belongs with articles relating to Breivik and the incident. --

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Scott S. Greenberger (January 4, 2000). "Nine to seek Greenberg's House seat" (fee required). Austin American-Statesman (Cox Enterprises): p. B1.

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There is evidence that Alex Jones pressured Genesis Communications Network (GCN) to remove the Jeff Rense Program. Evidence can be found here:

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Having a libertarian worldview and being associated with the Republican party is not mutually exclusive. There may be other sources, however.

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That is inappropriate. (Almost) all mainstream news media refers to him as "right-wing", and only alternative news media refer to him as

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access TV show host Alex Jones, 25, known locally for his diatribes against creeping federal control, says he's running ``to be a

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I think there's some confusion here about our BLP policy and what we mean by primary sources. I see the issue has been raised at

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Mainstream news sources have described him as conservative, and as an articulate and occasionally hypnotic conspiracy theorist.

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Actually, he claimed he "knew something big was going to happen," but he says that a lot, and it doesn't always pan out. ----

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Here's the specific excerpt supporting the content written about Jones's Republican campaign for a Texas House seat in 2000.

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a minor celebrity in Austin." Ref. 10: "Conspiracy Files: 9/11 - Q&A: What really happened" (FAQ). BBC News. 2007-02-16.

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Oops, maybe not, I don't think I have enough seniority yet to edit this article. Would an editor please clean this? Thanks!

870:). I think I might have one, or if not can find one. Kinda busy, so I may need a few days, and that's if I don't forget. 1732: 1664: 1088: 591: 1102:

I changed the sentence "Mainstream news sources" to "Some news sources" as mainstream implies some alleged legitimacy.

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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-29/banks-financing-mexico-s-drug-cartels-admitted-in-wells-fargo-s-u-s-deal.html

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where it was originally removed from the lead. Now we have two identical copies of the same material in the article.

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He also spreads slurs and hate speech against Green politics and calls environmental stewardship is a Nazi plot.

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They say he predicted 9/11 on a radio show in July 2001. Is this true or false? Y no mention in the article?

1121:"right-wing". I'm reverting; unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, "mainstream" should remain. — 1059:

You're asking us to include our own opinions/analysis of what Jones says, which is explicitly not allowed per

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The fact that there were references for that statement amused me greatly. Let's examine those together:

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The fact that there were references for that statement amused me greatly. Let's examine those together:

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I would like to suggest that under "External links" that the blog site Leaving Alex Jonestown be added.

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and rephrased the sentence, and added a peer-reviewed scholarly journal article as a new source for

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updated by same user - see this video below for proof of Alex Jones' views on the "right and left".

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clause. However, I'm almost certain that someone would zealously resist adding it to the article on

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views on Mexicans and homosexuals etc etc etc) without one of his cultists immediately attacking it.

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Daffydavid and Redpenofdoom. As near as I can tell Daffydavid is correct. Can someone explain this?

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Good work, other than some references being dead links this seems referenced enough to remain...

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Your concern is shared, but changes to this article have been few and far in between because of

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As for the CIA being responsbile for my edits, they'd have to pay me first. <hint, hint: -->

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Ref. 10: "Conspiracy Files: 9/11 - Q&A: What really happened" (FAQ). BBC News. 2007-02-16.

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I cannot believe any self-respecting source of information would ever include the above phrase

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I cannot believe any self-respecting source of information would ever include the above phrase

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One potential resolution to this dispute is noting a year beside the party name. For example,

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NOWHERE IN THIS ARTICLE DID YOU MENTION THAT MR JONES IS A PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENIC. KTHNXBAI.

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I am not sure if it is appropriate to say this here, but I was hoping somebody could start a

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http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/alex-jones-day-life-libertarian-radio-host/story?id=10891854

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This alone is enough to be skeptical of anything Alex Jones says. Make up your own mind...

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the source using logical reasoning, but only using the reasoning presented in the source. (

2523:, but consensus is otherwise. However, I quite agree that there's no BLP violation there, 2213:

Most of the time the things he "predicts" were before the prediction, so.... Nonetheless,

1956:

The GOP race to succeed Greenberg has seven contenders: * Documentary filmmaker and public

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is very interesting, and contains a debunker's account of Alex Jones' numerous beliefs and

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wrote an op-ed about physics, well, we'd probably be willing to include that info).

2413:

Yet again someone has taken issue with the party affiliation in the infobox. I have

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as to what Alex is saying; just quoting Alex won't produce "hate speech"; "skeptics

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Most of the time the things that Alex predicts happen, so, it's probably true. --

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has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at

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article that was linked to appears to be a well-referenced and neutral article.

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Especially in cases of persons of fringe interest, we must be careful not to

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Sorry, missed that. The gist of it needs to be in the lead, any suggestions?

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page for Alex Jones. I think it would be a useful and appreciated addition.

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it is recent, but I do not have the privilege to edit this article. Link:

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Please change his Party affiliation to Libertarian. He's not a Republican.

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need to remain registered in a party to have run for office in that party

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdMQfiRqacQ&feature=channel_video_title

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In re: Mezlo's removal of the Greenberger source and Jones's affiliation

1475:. Are you not familiar with the term? He fits the definition to a T. 2421:, but removal of sourced content is unacceptable as I also pointed out 1949:

I can verify that it indeed supports the content in this wiki article.

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I don't think either of them is particularly close to the guidelines:

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Jones's 2000 campaign for a Texas House seat as a Republican candidate

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Ref. 8: Black, Louis (2000-07-14). "Unknown Title". Austin Chronicle.

1303:

Ref. 8: Black, Louis (2000-07-14). "Unknown Title". Austin Chronicle.

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to include that in the article, no matter how obvious it appears. —

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs

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grounds. From my perspective, having read this talk page over time,

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/conspiracy_files/6341851.stm

1321:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/conspiracy_files/6341851.stm

183:(Jones' primary sponsor), specializing in gold and silver coins. 1063:. All we may state is what other reliable sources have stated. 421:

I cited the sources to the point where it is easy to find them.

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Duplicate talk page post, I collapsed it to reduce confusion. -

1385:. Retrieved 2008-05-20. " has made the exuberant, 27-year-old 1315:. Retrieved 2008-05-20. " has made the exuberant, 27-year-old 521:, any controversial statement about Alex must be taken from a 25: 1372:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/print?oid=77891

1305:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/print?oid=77891

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Jones. Thank you Knowledge (XXG) for promoting Alex Jones.--

1400:

and broadcaster Alex Jones of infowars.com argues that ..."

1327:

and broadcaster Alex Jones of infowars.com argues that ..."

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has aspects in common with the Left, the claim makes sense.

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A number of pieces on Jones have recently been published by

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http://leavingalexjonestown.blogspot.com/2009/02/intro.html

686:

http://leavingalexjonestown.blogspot.com/2009/02/intro.html

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comments. If anyone has an objection, please post here.

126:

the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page

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Is there a reliable source that says it's a biography?

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WP:RSEX#Are IRC, MySpace, and YouTube reliable sources?

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This dispute is therefore resolved, because the source

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WP:RSEX#Are IRC, MySpace, and YouTube reliable sources?

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WP:RSEX#Are IRC, MySpace, and YouTube reliable sources?

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that question this to back up this leading statement.

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Frankly the CIA interfere with their wiki page less.

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interpretation of Alex's remarks. We need specific

711:, but could anyone send me a link to it anyhow? ---- 835:

Alex Jones conspiracy theories about Global Warming

2519:Personally, I don't think SPLC's opinion is even 2393:Not sure about that, but you've reworded it well. 2495:bit is a little more subjective, but I digress. 2527:it's a primary source as to SPLC's opinion. — 1954: 1436: 438:Wells Fargo laundering billions in drug money. 1431:. I reworded the statement to read as follows: 427:CBS report 2.3 trillion missing from Pentagon 2063:to make it into the article we need sources. 1214:, which is more reliable than a news source. 8: 1660:Edit request from SmittyInTX, 14 August 2011 843:He regularly invites climate skeptics like 2408: 210:As it stands this article is pretty useless 152:There should also be mention of the recent 2094:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K58TjYorsKA 1734:does not call him a "Republican." Cheers. 1285:The following discussion has been closed. 1273: 429:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RvLL--vSsA 425:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU4GdHLUHwU 2764:Knowledge (XXG) rules not being followed 682:http://leavingalexjonestown.blogspot.com 1021:Youtube is hardly a verifiable source. 777:Unencyclopedic & Family Background 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 7: 1826:No consensus to change at this time 684:Take a look at the Intro page here: 2409:Jones's political party affiliation 191:share the same physical address in 1156:Why is "right-wing" necessarily a 24: 2791:sources, even if not reliable). ( 2415:resolved this dispute in the past 1396:. Retrieved 2008-05-19. "Leading 1323:. Retrieved 2008-05-19. "Leading 2745:Hale County, Texas Bryan Jones 2668:It is an exact duplicate of the 1817: 1567:http://www.alexjonesmachine.com/ 1197:I think the previous removal of 122:Template:Alex Jones (radio host) 116: 111:Template:Alex Jones (radio host) 29: 2058:. 14:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC) 1201:on grounds of it somehow being 517:Actually, I'm afraid not. Per 2225:07:12, 13 September 2012 (UTC) 2209:01:32, 13 September 2012 (UTC) 1561:Alex Jones Promotes Censorship 1389:a minor celebrity in Austin." 1212:right-wing conspiracy theorist 185:Genesis Communications Network 177:Genesis Communications Network 1: 2830:14:35, 22 February 2013 (UTC) 2779:10:19, 22 February 2013 (UTC) 2729:22:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC) 2701:08:29, 18 December 2012 (UTC) 2679:04:04, 18 December 2012 (UTC) 2660:02:27, 18 December 2012 (UTC) 2645:16:06, 11 December 2012 (UTC) 2630:Restored old material to lead 2614:21:18, 29 November 2012 (UTC) 2602:05:06, 27 November 2012 (UTC) 2587:01:31, 27 November 2012 (UTC) 2563:17:45, 26 November 2012 (UTC) 2535:15:05, 26 November 2012 (UTC) 2511:14:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC) 2481:14:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC) 2319:22:50, 12 February 2012 (UTC) 2297:13:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC) 2283:13:07, 12 February 2012 (UTC) 2151:22:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC) 2137:03:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC) 2111:03:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC) 1992:20:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC) 1016:01:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC) 1001:01:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC) 984:00:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC) 556:21:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC) 2759:02:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC) 2740: 2458:06:21, 6 November 2012 (UTC) 2264:20:24, 1 February 2012 (UTC) 2079:17:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC) 1998:biosphere conspiracy theory 1930:02:14, 8 December 2011 (UTC) 1907:22:52, 7 December 2011 (UTC) 1726:has small-l, but sources do 1031:00:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC) 533:18:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC) 507:17:12, 2 November 2009 (UTC) 309:22:20, 10 October 2009 (UTC) 2719:relocated by another editor 1879:13:47, 22 August 2011 (UTC) 1844:04:54, 22 August 2011 (UTC) 1807:17:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC) 1785:17:41, 20 August 2011 (UTC) 1744:08:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC) 1705:13:37, 14 August 2011 (UTC) 1682:13:28, 14 August 2011 (UTC) 1655:02:40, 18 August 2011 (UTC) 1635:04:11, 10 August 2011 (UTC) 1551:02:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC) 1518:21:53, 26 August 2011 (UTC) 1491:08:28, 10 August 2011 (UTC) 1264:02:49, 18 August 2011 (UTC) 1250:02:34, 18 August 2011 (UTC) 949:07:00, 11 August 2011 (UTC) 918:04:23, 11 August 2011 (UTC) 903:19:00, 10 August 2011 (UTC) 886:15:08, 10 August 2011 (UTC) 861:04:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC) 2846: 2086:Anders Breivik Conspiracy 1079:Jones has identified as a 577:01:49, 11 April 2011 (UTC) 477:11:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC) 458:11:17, 11 April 2011 (UTC) 414:02:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC) 387:02:03, 11 April 2011 (UTC) 363:01:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC) 339:01:11, 11 April 2011 (UTC) 166:23:50, 10 March 2011 (UTC) 2195:01:44, 15 June 2012 (UTC) 1789:In most states, one does 1619:22:28, 23 July 2011 (UTC) 1592:20:43, 23 July 2011 (UTC) 1230:22:07, 22 July 2011 (UTC) 1183:01:11, 18 June 2011 (UTC) 1144:23:34, 17 June 2011 (UTC) 1073:00:46, 6 April 2011 (UTC) 1054:17:41, 5 April 2011 (UTC) 829:02:07, 27 July 2011 (UTC) 802:23:20, 26 July 2011 (UTC) 288:00:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC) 272:23:40, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 205:23:59, 2 April 2011 (UTC) 179:(Jones' distributor) and 136:10:38, 8 March 2011 (UTC) 2463:Recent SPLC edit and BLP 2403:18:23, 10 May 2012 (UTC) 2388:13:20, 10 May 2012 (UTC) 2377:06:21, 10 May 2012 (UTC) 2179:16:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC) 1962:watchdog on the inside." 1465:21:29, 7 July 2011 (UTC) 1421:20:45, 7 July 2011 (UTC) 1354:20:39, 7 July 2011 (UTC) 1288:Please do not modify it. 1129:12:48, 12 May 2011 (UTC) 1112:06:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC) 771:15:30, 2 July 2011 (UTC) 721:15:11, 2 July 2011 (UTC) 702:List of Jones' delusions 701: 697:21:31, 23 May 2011 (UTC) 675:01:17, 15 May 2011 (UTC) 659:14:32, 14 May 2011 (UTC) 643:14:38, 13 May 2011 (UTC) 625:07:52, 13 May 2011 (UTC) 245:07:36, 15 May 2009 (UTC) 230:06:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC) 2351:18:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC) 1795:more than a decade past 1765:in his infobox doesn't 1665:{{edit semi-protected}} 1097:04:58, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 1089:BakuninGoldmanKropotkin 600:05:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 592:BakuninGoldmanKropotkin 175:Add "Ted Anderson owns 154:Charlie Sheen kerfuffle 107:Nomination for deletion 2419:suggested a compromise 2363:you are engaging in a 1964: 1723:Note the capital-L. 1440: 1365:in any of its articles 1298:in any of its articles 1270:"Conspiracy theorist"? 743:seems to have trumped 42:of past discussions. 2009:should be included. 1940:I recently reverted 1445:You can see my edit 582:Alex Jones Wikiquote 2741:Alex's grandparents 2670:"Reception" section 1398:conspiracy theorist 1387:conspiracy theorist 1376:conspiracy theorist 1325:conspiracy theorist 1317:conspiracy theorist 1309:conspiracy theorist 2493:fecund imagination 2004:conspiracy theory 1240:likes to check. -- 2727: 2677: 2612: 2585: 2429:rather than say, 2354: 2337:comment added by 2169:comment added by 2101:comment added by 1897:comment added by 1842: 1711:Reliable Source: 1700: 1595: 1578:comment added by 1508:comment added by 1473:conspiracy theory 1361: 1360: 1344:comment added by 1134:WP:BLP violation. 1081:paleoconservative 974:comment added by 792:comment added by 615:comment added by 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1199:right-wing 1165:right-wing 1104:Gingermint 1046:Brian Dell 98:Archive 10 2800:interpret 2405:Kazemzad 2325:Biography 1946:Cosprings 1942:this edit 1627:Gise-354x 1085:Old Right 910:Gise-354x 893:Gise-354x 853:Gise-354x 588:wikiquote 548:Iscream22 495:Iscream22 193:Minnesota 90:Archive 7 85:Archive 6 79:Archive 5 73:Archive 4 68:Archive 3 60:Archive 1 2815:WP:UNDUE 2789:credible 2751:Wjhonson 2395:Kazemzad 2361:Kazemzad 2347:contribs 2339:Kazemzad 2335:unsigned 2289:Spotle99 2275:Spotle99 2167:unsigned 2099:unsigned 1966:Source: 1895:unsigned 1861:Bob Barr 1857:Ron Paul 1823:Not done 1761:next to 1755:Ron Paul 1588:contribs 1576:unsigned 1506:unsigned 1342:unsigned 1065:Qwyrxian 1023:J. 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