Talk:Algeria/Archive 3

3554:, Tamazight is an official language of Algeria, and as such, must be valued and present in the article and its major sections. Deleting a country's name in its official language is nonsensical and cannot be founded on any reasonable arguments. The French, the German, the Spanish, and many other major languages versions of Knowledge all have at least some representation of the infobox's Tamazight name. I do not think that editors of these versions are in any way less diligent than the English Knowledge ones. Tamazight, and as many other languages globally, is written in different scripts. This is a sign of the richness and the ancient history of the language. Claiming that the presence of the three scripts makes the language anarchic and disorganized is an argument often used by extremist Arab nationalists who oppose the promotion of the Berber languages and culture, and I am sure that we all do not want Knowledge to be on the same line with this group. Second, ideally, the infobox should have all three scripts; however, because the space is rather limited, I think we should only use the Tifinagh and the Latin scripts. Tifinagh is the most ancient and the most emblematic script of the language, and Latin helps a universal representation of the Tamazight name (as often the romanization does). The official names in Tamazight can be found on the Algerian Press Service website 4989:@M.Bitton. In their last change in Morocco they wrote: "Per your edit on the Algeria article". The edit here in Algeria has nothing to do with the one in Morocco. It sounds like: "Yes, if there is no dynasty in Algeria "They're not allowed in Morocco." These are two different topics. But I would be happy to explain my point of view to you. It is the case that Algeria's formation includes all dynasties that took place on Algerian soil or Algerian capitals. This is the case in Algeria and Tunisia. Except in Morocco it's not like that. The formation of Algeria even includes the "Roman Empire". If the current formation of Algeria says "Kindom of Telcem" and Hasfid Dynasty in Tunisia, then it is not wrong to write Marinid Dynasty under Morocco's formation. If "the Regency of Algiers" is in the formation of Algerirn and Ottman Tunisia in Tunisia, then it is not wrong to write Saadi Dynasty under Morocco's formation. Or how do you see that? 262:. Algerian Arabic is not a mixture of many languages, but a Semitic- and Afro-Asiatic-based language with Semitic grammar and sentence structure, an Arabic-based numeral system, Arabic-based pronouns and Arabic-based conjuctions. You can see the language family tree in every professional linguistic book. English has many foreign loanwords (even more than Algerian Arabic), i.a. from Latin, Norman and many other languages, but is still clearly a Germanic language, the same goes with Algerian Arabic, which is clearly an Arabic/Semitic language. But nevertheless, what only cares is the official language status. Arabic is the official language of the state of Algeria. In Switzerland, where a similar diglossic situation persists, the name of the Swiss German variety is also not written in the title. -- 1500:

included. The name in Tamazight must be included. Now, which script to be used is not a problem, because as I said Algerian people are fine with either Tifinagh or Latin scripts. A solution might be to include both scripts, as is the case with some languages in Eastern Europe that use both Latin and Cyrillic scripts. I can't understand your logic here, you are fine with including the French name (although, as I repeat again, French is not an official language of Algeria), but you immediately delete any attempt to include the Tamazight name. Don't you think this is misleading people who read the article to know more about Algeria? These people have the right to know that Tamazight is an official language of Algeria. This is also suggesting a quite hostile attitude towards Tamazight speakers.

3437:). The page must have a representation of the Tamazight name. It is not logical or acceptable to completely omit a country's name in its official language. The English Knowledge is the only version that I have consulted so far that does not have a representation of the Tamazight name in the lede sentence. Tamazight, and as many other languages globally, has been written using different writing systems: Tifinagh, Latin, and Arabic scripts. All three scripts are still being used in modern-day Algeria. As such, all three scripts have to be included in the lede sentence. This is not a bizarre situation for anyone with a minimum knowledge of linguistics. Serbian, for instance, is written in both the Cyrillic and the Latin scripts, and both scripts are included on the Serbia page. 1723:) cannot easily be googled because it is only mostly present in images. As for the one present in the french article, its latin equivalent gives this: Tagduda Tamagdayt Taɣrfant Tadzayrit, which means that it has not been deciphered as you claim but written from scratch by a wikipedian who clearly knows how to write in tifinagh but at the same time is not good enough at writing the language. So I guess you have two choices, either you revert what you deleted or you keep being consistent and let met delete Berber from the list of official languages (both from the infobox and from the article itself) which is something I wanted to do for so long but was hesitant since both the standard language and its so called officialization are just another joke. 902: 895: 888: 4728: 3654:. Tamazight has been an official language since 2016, which is a short period. Normally, it takes time for all authorities to create Tamazight versions of their websites. The discussion here is not about the availability of websites/Facebook pages in Tamazight but about including the official Tamazight name. Examples of ministries/official authorities that do not have a Tamazight version of their websites but they list the Tamazight name of Algeria and/or of the authority in question in Tamazight: The Ministry of Transports 3401:, the subject is not closely associated with any of them and b) we have no way of knowing which of the three will achieve such status at some point in the future or indeed what form the name will take. This situation will remain unchanged so long as the fundamental problems facing this artificial language haven't been resolved: the choice of which alphabet to adopt and the standardization that will follow. From an official point of view, article 4 of the constitution (officially transcribed in only two languages, 1624:. Right now, all we have is a) individuals scribbling away and deciphering various irrelevant documents, leading to the various discrepancies (as can be seen by the difference between the Tifinagh name that you added, taken from a communiqué for the Hajj, and the ones before it, as well as the name in the fr.wp) and b) others wanting to include the name in an encyclopedia, under the pretext that the language is official, while overlooking the fact that the name itself is not official. 813:… of the largest cities of Roman North Africa. It also had a long and distinguished history, starting as a Punic colony; becoming a royal Numidian capital, perhaps from … TW Potter - cambridge.org … long and distinguished history, starting as a Punic colony; becoming a royal Numidian capital, perhaps from the second century BC, and most notably under the client king, Juba II (25 BC … is a fine theatre, built in Juba's reign; an unusual amphitheatre, perhaps Augustan in origin … 31: 2680:

no. We can have a discussion about where to include the Tamazight name, but including it is not a subject for discussion. This could have been discussed before 2016 when Tamazight was a national language and not an official one. Since 2016, Tamazight has been an official language. If you cannot understand the reason for including the Tamazight name yet, then I really suggest you review the definition of the official language of a country.

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more direct discussions with you or answer any of your questions. You are trying to divert the attention from valid concerns to meaningless side discussions. I also do not think you should be part of the ongoing Tamazight name discussion. Since the beginning, you have been quite hostile to including the Tamazight names. You even implied that the language is disorganized and anarchic. Your position is not in any way neutral.

3531:

people wanting to take matters into their own hands. Given this situation and the fact that it is not our job to choose (that would be taking sides in a dispute in which we have no say) or to propagate names in languages that aren't even codified, I truly believe that the best option is to simply leave those names in the name section (which needs a lot of work to avoid misleading the readers) until the issue is resolved.

4330:

identify with their Berber rather than Arab cultural heritage; Berbers have long agitated, sometimes violently, for autonomy; the government is unlikely to grant autonomy but has officially recognized Berber languages and introduced them into public schools)thus the person who put that phrase is misleading they're ready to denial their identity for political reason shameless pls correct that thanks you in advance

537: 4678: 4458: 2319:. That request wasn't followed up on, but I am now following up. I don't see a discussion of the official languages in the body of the article. Am I missing something? Also, is there any reason why the three versions of the Tamazight name should not be mentioned in the body of the article, possibly in the Etymology section (which maybe should be renamed to Name)? 4141:. And evidence of stone tools does not equal the first location inhabited. We have bones with evidence of tool cut marks that are older than this. In any case, this is a recent find, and will need more vetting before we'd use it here. If we went with any single paper, we'd say that the earliest homininds living near the Mediterranean would be 2866:

how (and not whether) to include the Tamazight name in the lede and the infobox. Should it be the same as the Name section, i.e. include all three scripts. Or should it be similar to what is done in other Knowledge versions, i.e. include only the Tifinagh name in the infobox and all three scripts in the lede.

2970:. Unless you are a proficient speaker of the language, you are not in a position to check the references (are you a proficient speaker of one of the Tamazight languages?). I wonder if you are this meticulous about your other editing duties; if so, your perfectionism should be an example for all of us. 4329:

note: although almost all Algerians are Berber in origin (not Arab), only a minority identify themselves as primarily Berber, about 15% of the total population; these people live mostly in the mountainous region of Kabylie east of Algiers and several other communities; the Berbers are also Muslim but

3003:

I am happy to have this type of discussion with a proficient speaker. How do you claim to be able to verify sources in languages that you do not even speak? All decisions, including the validity of the sources, can be made after the RFC has been established and discussed. I am not willing to have any

2520:

I thank you for stating the issue so plainly. However, I had thought that it should be agreed that the three versions of the name should be included somewhere, and that the question was where. I thought that there could already be consensus on the A/B question as to B, and the issue would be 1/2/3.

2385:

I agree with including the name in Tamazight in all three scripts, but not only in the Etymology/Name section but also at the very beginning of the article. I also agree with removing the name in French. I would suggest, however, including the Tamazight name in the infobox in Tifinagh. I did not want

1550:

While I still disagree with you, you have not said anything about the suggestion of including both scripts (or all three of them). Also, why is it only you who is making decisions on the edits? Could we have the input of other editors, especially Algerian ones, because they are the most concerned? or

799:

New Masters for Africa S Raven - Rome in Africa, 2012 - taylorfrancis.com … True, King Bocchus of Mauretania was rewarded for his support in the Thapsus campaign by being given the western part of Numidia; but after his death in 33 BC his kingdom was ruled directly by the Romans, and then handed over

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Encyclopedia of African History 3-Volume Set - Page 251 Kevin Shillington - 2013 - ?Preview - ?More editions Mauritania then, too, became involved in the civil wars of Rome, and the kingdom was annexed to Rome by Caesar Octavian in 33BCE and then reformulated as a client-kingdom in 25BCE with Juba II

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Arabic is the official and main language of Algeria, with Tamazight as second official language. Unlike other Maghreb countries (Tunisia, Morocco, Mauritania), Algeria isn't even part of the Francophonie. It is only part of the Arab League. When an Algerian Berber and an Algerian Arab speak together,

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used to make communication possible between people who do not share a native language or dialect, particularly when it is a third language that is distinct from both of the speakers' native languages. Excuse me, but when an Algerian Berber meets an Algerian Arab they speak Algerian Arabic not French.

2865:

There seems to be an agreement about the Name section. The name section now has the Tamazight name in all three scripts. I also think no one who is neutral would question the validity of including the Tamazight name (an official language of Algeria) in the article. Thus, I think the RFC should be on

2717:

reason for taking issue with including all three forms of the Berber name in the body of the article? By the way, the lede sentence lists three names of the country, the French name in Latin letters, the Arabic name in Arabic letters, and the Berber name in Latin letters. What do you want? Do you

2423:

I think that we have agreement to rename the Etymology section to Name and have it provide all versions of the name in the various languages (French in the Latin alphabet, Arabic in the Arabic alphabet, Tamazight in three alphabets). I think that the lede section and the infobox can be addressed by

1148:

The Algerian constitution does not specify which writing system is to be used. All three writing systems are used in Algeria, but since the 1990s the Latin script has been the most popular, while the Tifinagh one is used almost exclusively for logos and symbols. For more information, you can see the

3788:

Very helpful sources in both bullets above. I am somewhat disinclined at the moment to further participate given the apparent lack of good faith in the discussion, but hopefully such sources (well, the ones that work, not all loaded for me) can help inform further opinions on the matter, as well as

3530:

As you can imagine, there is a war between the three, with activists on all sides pushing for their chosen alphabet; but the final word rests with the "Académie algérienne de la langue amazighe", which unfortunately (mostly due how complicated the issue is) has been taking its time, leading to some

2988:

policy is that anyone can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Right now, anyone (with no knowledge of either Arabic or French can check that the name in those two languages is both easily attributable and correct), but this isn't the case for the recently added Tamazight names.

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are you the one who will submit the RFC about the lede section and info box? I think this is the best time, as there seems to be a consensus about the Name section. I am glad to do it myself, but I just did not want to do that without asking for your permission since you were the one who formulated

2735:

I am surprised that you are now concerned with the opinion of the community. Until now, you have been making unilateral decisions of overlooking all attempts to discuss or edit the article to include the Tamazight name in a way that satisfies everyone. If you genuinely care about what the community

2679:

I think the concern about including option A in your proposed RFC is that it is excluding an official language of the country, which is not founded. Do you think it is acceptable to delete France's official name in French? or China's official name in Chinese? I think we all agree that the answer is

221:

Regarding the official languages, both Arabic and Tamazight are official and national languages. However, Tamazigh is not used in the administration, because it is not a single language, but a language group composed of multiple languages. Nevertheless, in addition to Arabic, I prefer that the name

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Because French has no official status in Algeria. Algeria is no longer a French colony for more than a half century. French has just a short history of 200 years, while Arabic and Tamazight have a history for more than one thousand years. Algeria is an independent country. On the article of England

3693:

Since you !vote is being question: 1) Talking of "exactitude": If you look at the examples cited above, you'll notice that not only is the name spelled differently in all of them, it is also different from the name that was added to the name section of the article, further highlighting what I said

2758:

The official name of a country is way too important to be left in the hands of amateurs and activists, and the editors who want to include the 3 alphabets have yet to acknowledge the fact that the proposed alphabets are not standardized, let alone offer a rationale as to why they should be used in

1499:

I have not addressed any of your concerns because they are nonsensical and not validated. I don't know why are you insisting on the question of the script. The true problem here is that Tamazight is an official language of Algeria (which we all agree on) but the name of Algeria in Tamazight is not

771:

Amyntas in 26, Cilicia was given to King Tarcondimotus. When Augustus added Juba II’s kingdom of Numidia to the province of Africa in 25, he gave Juba Mauretania (Morocco) to rule instead. In Armenia, on the Aspects of Roman History 82BC-AD14: A Source-based Approach By Mark Everson Davies, Hilary

4122:

Thanks! The article is precise. The title is "1.9-million- and 2.4-million-year-old artifacts and stone tool–cutmarked bones from Ain Boucherit, Algeria". It's not "between" 1.9-million- and 2.4-million- years. The abstract of the article is very explicit "Here we report older stone artifacts and

4829:

First, The Sulaymanids were really not close from a major dynasty in algerian history, why you may ask, it is because it was a governate of the idrissids and was founded after idris I conquest of tlemcen, making it just a pity vassal of the moroccan idrissids Second, The Sulaymanids have a poor

1167:

It doesn't because they have yet to decide which one to adopt. The Latin script has always been more popular, that's why it's favoured by the Algerian scholars. What some editors have managed to include in the French version (Tifinagh and not Latin as you seem to think) is irrelevant to us. That

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The Roman Maghreb K Amine, M Carlson - The Theatres of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, 2012 - Springer … 10 The Pre-Colonial Maghreb citizen, highly cultivated in the arts and natural history. The Emperor Augustus restored Juba II as king of Numidia between 29 BCE and 27 BCE and married him off to

3092:

I agree about the lede sentence; it already has at least a representation of the Tamazight name. I think the current RFC should focus on the infobox (as it already is). Although I do not agree with the "none" option on the current RFC, I think it would be better to give a chance to everyone to

1962:

help, do something about it. As for me, I have provided enough sources (my edit that has been reverted by Bitton and more on the talk page), and anyone can find 100 times more sources (such as the whole constitution in tamazight, official education books from 1st year in primary school to PHD,

1525:

Describing as "nonsensical" the issues that, for some unknown reason, you can't or are unwilling to address doesn't make them so. Which script is to be used and why is the core of the problem, and using a random script (from the three) that is yet to be standardized is what I would describe as

359:

Regardless of how it's called, which is irrelevant to begin with, the language that Algerians use to communicate with one another happens to be a mix of at least 3 languages, with French being one of them. As has been noted: a) Nobody is suggesting that French is an official language. b) Being

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Source: Sahnouni; et al. (14 December 2018). "1.9-million- and 2.4-million-year-old artifacts and stone tool–cutmarked bones from Ain Boucherit, Algeria". Science. 362 (6420): 1297–1301. Bibcode:2018Sci...362.1297S. doi:10.1126/science.aau0008. hdl:10072/383164. PMID 30498166. S2CID 54166305.

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Herods Contemporaries In Britain And The West J Creighton - Herod and Augustus, 2008 - booksandjournals.brillonline.com … BCE the king of Mauretania died and for a few years this part of Africa was ruled directly by Rome, however in 25 BCE Augustus installed Juba II there as king, where he …

1793:

No, it is already official and it is certainly not the government's fault if those who are supposed to chose the most suited alphabet are are fighting among each other. Of course they are not ofiicial. How can they be given the fact that they have to chose an alphabet, let alone codify it?

2989:

While the Tamazight-Arabic script is attributable to a single source (you search for it inside the page and it will be highlighted for you), the Tifinagh and the Latin that you added are nowhere to be found in the above APS links that you provided. Where did you get those two names from?

3474:

While Tamazight has been recognized as an official language, there is a lot of work that needs to be done, chief of all is the adoption of a single alphabet for its transcription. This is clearly stated in article 4 of the constitution (officially transcribed in only two languages,

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According to the science and the Analysis of the DNA Results Show that: BERBERS:76% IBERIANS-ITALIAN:20% ARABS:3% OTHERS:1% This is the The ethnicity groups in North Africa So everybody should stop thinking that we are majority Arab because it's opposite we are majority Berber.

4401:

Well, my issue is that it's mentioned in the history section that the almohads were founded by abd al-mu'min which is not historically correct and contradicts the almohad article itself. I suggest to mention that he was just the first caliph, that would actually be more safe.

4849:? That makes no sense. Morocco did not exist back then, and the Sulaymanids had their own separate kingdom. Regardless, it's worth noting that the Sulaymanids were among the first Muslim states in the region, and their significance should be duly acknowledged in the infobox. 257:

with the language code arq (ISO 639-3), which can be both viewed as a variety of Arabic and as a single language. The situation is similar to Switzerland, where Swiss German is the spoken language and Standard German the written language. This linguistic phenomenom is called

2052:

I have submitted a dispute resolution request as suggested in the third opinion response. I hope members of the dispute resolution team could offer some insights to reach an agreement that satisfies everyone. I will continue my efforts until the Tamazight name is included.

2073:

I have renamed the Etymology section to Name, inserting Etymology as a subsection, because the first paragraph always was the name and not its origin. The romanized version of the Berber name was already there. I have inserted the Tifinagh representation. My use of the

3381:

In the Survey for each option, you may answer All, Tifinagh, Arabic, Latin, or None, or provide the combination of forms that you support, with a brief explanation. Do not reply to each other in the Survey. You may discuss with other editors in the Threaded Discussion.

3641:

I am amazed how you picked-up only examples of ministries/official authorities that do not use Tamazight and overlooked many others that do. This shows an obvious lack of neutrality. Here are some counter examples: The Algerian Ministry of Culture (in the Latin script)

4123:

cutmarked bones excavated from two nearby deposits at Ain Boucherit estimated to ~1.9 Ma ago, and the older to ~2.4 Ma ago". Please, mind the "older" of the two deposits dates to ~2.4 Ma ago. Again, it's not saying a deposit is between ~1.9 Ma ago and ~2.4 Ma ago.

2880:

As far as the RfC is concerned, neutrality means that all three alphabets will be treated equally and presented as such to the readers. You'll get your !vote like everyone else and the chance to explain why you think a particular alphabet is more suitable than the

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page. In some cases this is a minor transposition - e.g. Chlef is listed at 4795 km on the Provinces page, but 4975 on this page. In other cases, the difference is larger: Adrar is 254,471 km on the provinces page, 402,197 km on this page, and 424,948 km on the

4104:. We don't know that the habitation in Algeria dates to 2.4 million years ago; rather, we know it is within a range of 1.9 - 2.4 million years ago. If it is on the shorter end, then evidence for habitation in Syria would be older. We just do not know as of yet. -- 1779:. You did not comment on the sources I provided, are they official documents or not? (notice the seal), if they are, what makes you say that some of its content (country's name) is not official? NB: Needless to say, your interpretations (and mine) are irrelevant. 773: 2825:

You don't need to ask anyone's permission to launch a RfC, but you do need to work with the others to formulate one that is neutral and includes everyone's concerns, but first things, first. I suggest you start by addressing the missing "Arabic Berber" version

5092:

I'm only applying the same principle to all articles to prevent the disruption. The fact that you seem to agree with Izmir18 (the editor who reverted your last edit after adding a similar list to another article) means that I'm moving in the right direction.

2220:, but they have not edited in the past 48 hours since filing the request, and so have not responded to my request to list and notify the other editors. I am willing either to offer an opinion on request as to how I think this should be done, or to develop a 1615:

The fundamental issue is that there is no official Tamazight name of Algeria and there won't be so long as the choice of the transcription and the standardization that will follow haven't been settled by the "académie de la langue amazighe" (as stipulated in

5107:"all articles" so why stop at Tunisia and Morocco then? I obviously don't agree with Izmir18 since he appears biased against Algeria. As far as I'm concerned my "edits" were just reverts of non-agreed removals in the infobox. I haven't removed any content. 4363:

since you seem to be having difficulties using the talk page, I'm starting this discussion for you (after reverting the article to its stable version) so that you can seek consensus for your changes. In the meantime, I urge you to refrain from edit warring.

5253:

the trouble with restoring what one thinks is an important state or whatever is that it opens the door for more of the same as there will never be an agreement as what is important and what isn't. That's why I only kept the first and the last known states.

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history, as not much historians talk about it, and its history is also poorly understood, as they werent as important as the for example, fatimids or the zirids or the hammadids, and since it was founded by idris I, a moroccan, i think it shouldnt be here.

1149:

French version of the article where the Latin script is used. There is no reasonable explanation not to include the official Tamazight name, since it is an official language just as Arabic (while French is not, but the name in French is still displayed). --

3045:

Delaying the RFC any further would cause more side discussions that would make the issue more complicated than is now (please see the discussion above). It would be very helpful if we could have the RFC as soon as possible so that everyone is satisfied.

3074:. I will be copying the draft RFC to here, and turning it on, in about 24 hours, unless I am persuaded not to do so. If another RFC is also wanted, please explain; there can be two RFCs running at the same time, with slightly different date ranges. 1753:

While Tamazight is official, the choice of the alphabet and its standardization are yet to be decided (how long will that take is irrelevant). This is factual and neutral, there is no need to go to the extreme and remove its status from the article.

1566:

I don't usually encourage the inclusion of original research, that's why I haven't commented on your idea. Feel free to create whatever you want, though, I personally don't see the point since consensus among a select group of editors does not trump

1551:

could we create a vote/survey to see the opinions of different editors? Regardless of your position, and regardless of whether your concerns are nonsensical or not, it is not fair that you are making individualized decisions without consulting others

1620:). The HCA (your source), which has been around since 1995, has already opted for the latin alphabet and it will have its say like everyone else, but the final word belongs to the Academy. The Tifinagh and the Arabic alphabets aren't codified and 2009:

Even when Sami At Ferhat provided strong and reliable sources from the Algerian government itself, you are still not open for discussion or welcoming a different perspective on the issue. I will proceed to request a third opinion on this matter.

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until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

3201:

Hi, so we need an Algerian official source that tells us that Algeria use official Berber language name and how it is spelled.. Many editors have added differenet names and got reverted. How can we know which one is right? We need an official

89:

The official name of Algeria is written in French, which makes the article biased and misleading, French is now an Official Language of Algeria Please Edit. This is actually again Knowledge’s polices, so I will delete it. Thanks in advance

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education in Italy. Octavian, the future emperor Augustus, befriended Juba when he was a young man and in 29 ».c. made him ruler of his father's former kingdom of Numidia, which had become a Roman province after the death of Juba I in 46

1958:, the same extrapolation that made him conclude that statements published by the government -with the seal of the republic- are not official documents (how can you be more stubborn than that? honestly?). He's hijacking the article with 4096:. Indeed, we have sources from other articles which suggest other similar tool use in the Middle East at similar time spans, with overlapping ranges that made it difficult to say what was "first". There are sites in Israel dating at 2648:

That's a question that I'll leave for those who want their inclusion to answer. The etymology section is another issue that needs to be discussed first, and as its name implies, it's about the origin of the word "Algeria" (al

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previously about amateurs and activists having a go at a language that isn't even codified. 2) There is no "official Tamazight name", it simply does not exist yet (see my comments above). The constitution clearly states that

3935:

Algeria is bordered to the northeast by Tunisia; to the east by Libya; to the southeast by Niger; to the southwest by Mali, Mauritania, and Western Sahara; to the west by Morocco; and to the north by the Mediterranean Sea.

2275:

language is one of the official languages of Algeria, then its name in that language in some form should be in the article. What have you proposed, and what have other editors said? Does the question have to do with the

4080:. For another, the only mention of the Mediterranean is that this is evidence of humans (or hominims) inhabiting the "Mediterranean fringe" earlier than expected. It doesn't actually speak to anything else, including the 2846:

I am willing to formulate the RFC on the lede and the infobox. I will take care to word it neutrally, but I first would like to be sure what is at issue. We don't need an RFC on any matter on which there is agreement.

3130:

disagree with will defeat its purpose by making one sided. If that's going to be an issue, then pinging some experienced editors and admins will be next. Other than that, I have no problem with another RfC for the lede.

3111:

I have just checked, and The Tamazight name that used to be in the lede sentence has disappeared. If some editors continue making individualized decisions like this, I think we need an RFC for the lede sentence as well.

5034:

Please explain, why are you changing the formation of Tunisia? You only change them because they were changed in Algeria. Just like in Morocco. Why are you doing that? Why can't the formation in Tunisia stay like this?

750:

noticed that the article mentions outdated information (mohammed mediene as the strong man of the country, and bouteflika loyalists in key positions..) - will go through the article and update what needs updating 📙 😃

3930:

2329:

I think you're onto something there. The original question, as I understood it, was about listing the name in the infobox—and I think that given the instability in writing system, it is best to omit that name from the

2271:- At this point, discussion here is the best way to resolve the issue. Discussion at the article talk page is usually a good way to resolve article content issues; that is what article talk pages are for. If the 360:

official doesn't even mean that the language is used by Algerians (nobody uses classical Arabic at home or in the street) or that the language even exists (Tamazight is an artificial language that nobody speaks).

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Tamazight is an artificial language that nobody speaks. The only reason we haven't added it yet is because its standardization and transcription into one of the Latin, Tifinagh or Arabic alphabets is still being

169:, it's an official language, just like Tamazight, and that's what it says in the Infobox. Incidentally, the two official languages have one thing in common, nobody speaks either of them at home or in the street. 1923:") with the following provision that the Academie is charged with helping Tamazight achieve its status as official language. Since it has constitutional status, it's reasonable to mention it in the infobox. It 643: 1098:

While Tamazight is recognized as an official language, its transcription and standardization are still being debated. Right now, nobody knows for sure which of the three proposed alphabets will be adopted:

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this case. That's why I suggested we hand it over to the community, even though I'm not usually keen on RfCs when the subject is complicated and the sources are sparse and in a foreign language to boot.

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Given the complexity of the issue, your comparison doesn't make any sense. As for option A, if it's that easy to dismiss, then you'll have no trouble convincing the community and everyone will be happy.

386:. And nevertheless, a colloquial "language mix" has nothing to do with the official state language. The official state languages are Arabic (Modern Standard Arabic) and Tamazight (not standardized yet). 2228:

unless someone will list and notify the editors, without prejudice, meaning that a new request can be filed if it lists and notifies the editors. Please let me know whether you want a neutral party.

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Since the previous (see above) has stopped, I have rearranged the added names in the name section to fit the first line, "cn" tagged the unsourced problematic edits and added notes about them not being

779: 3705:(article 4). 3) Should examples be needed, we can list plenty. Here's a non exhaustive list of government websites that use either Arabic, French or both (with no Tamazight in sight): the presidency 4001:

What about Mohammed Moulessehoul, aka Yasmina Khadra, who wrote the Swallows of Kabul, the Sirens of Baghdad, Wolf Dreams, and the Detective Llob series, set in Algiers? Certainly worth mentioning!

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The same could be said about the Arabic. Since neither of the two languages is a native language per se (with regard to the parameter of the Infobox), why are you concentrating on the French only?

2251:. Also, please share any other ways on how to proceed other than DRN; I was not sure if that was the best way to solve the issue. Please let me know if you need additional information or details. 4655: 4002: 3851: 4088:. Certainly, I would agree it is likely that hominims reached the region now known as Algeria before those other regions, but this article doesn't speak to that. What you are proposing violates 4326:

The phrase is deliberately misleading the source isn't a scientific study on Algerian population genes but a CIA (usa) website i quote : Ethnic groups: Arab-Berber 99%, European less than 1%

3883: 2247:. I am sorry that I missed your note on the DRN page. I see that you suggested formulating an RFC. That would be very helpful and most appreciated. The official name in the Tifinagh script is 567:

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page.

4928:'s request for protection of this article. The proper scope of this article is a content issue which needs the agreement of editors. The article talk page is a good place to negotiate this. 4547: 149:

The name title is already too long, so the layout is not looking good - if someone wants know the French name, he can click on the French wiki article, very easy to find on the left bar. --

3770:

Incidentally, I have noticed that you didn't comment on the first part of the RfC and was wondering whether you missed it. If that wasn't the case, then no explanation is necessary. Best,

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Evidence from the Ain Boucherit archeological site, in Algeria, demonstrated that the country has been inhabited since 2.4 million years ago, before any other country in the Mediterranean

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There's no such thing as Algerian language to begin with. Citing one paper that uses the whimsical construct "Algerian language" is not an evidence. As has been noted, the French is not

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The name title is already too long, so the layout is not looking good - if someone wants know the French name, he can click on the French wiki article, very easy to find on the left bar.

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What is wrong with the proposed RfC? It's neutral and allows the community to have its say without unilaterally excluding it from any the disputed content. isn't that for RfCs are for?

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report him for what? you're the one who should be reported since you deem yourself authorized to remove content on the Algeria article and add similar content into the Morocco one.

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Already cited in the page twice. Can editors explain why they are removing the subject text systemicall? If no objection please use the subject-text with the indicated reference.

2744:

I really do not see a point in this current discussion. I think the original RFC that you proposed is the one that reflects the valid issues and the one that should be submitted.

5015:

It has everything to do with the usual nonsense that SPAs tend to target. In any case, I intend to sort out this once and for all. As for your edit: now that you understand what

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want to omit the romanized form of the Berber name from the lede sentence? Why do you think that there even is a question about listing the three writings of the Berber name?

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I hope you would respect the proposed changes to the name section and that you would not attempt to delete the Tamazight name there, since there is a consensus to include it.

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Homo Sapiens didn't yet exist in that timeframe, and prior forms of the genus homo did not form 'countries' that could be inhabited. These would've been stone tools used by

229:. German companies also use English and several government offices in Germany also often use English, but that does not mean that English is a native language of Germany. -- 1861:

If the use of Tamazight in any form by the government is not official (your own interpretation, and mine as well), that means that tamazight itself is not official, right?

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Does Angela Merkel address the German people in English? Does the German education minister (Anja Karliczek) struggle to express herself in German (the official language)?

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If we're going to start a RfC, then the only fair and long-lasting solution would be to let the community have its say on the whole issue. Something like the following:

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They did no such thing, in fact, they agreed with me, except that in their extreme interpretation, Tamazight shouldn't even be described as an official language. Their

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German companies also use English and several government offices in Germany also often use English, but that does not mean that English is a native language of Germany.

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page. These bigger discrepancies seem to be a result of the break-up of a few provinces into smaller provinces in 2019 - I see a similar discrepancy for Tamanrasset.

560: 2131:). This is the second time that the Arabic Berber gets somehow "forgotten"; so either you add that as well as you promised or your "two chosen ones" will be removed. 3670:. Also, I do not understand how you concluded that "Arabic is the only common language" just by consulting a few websites? this shows an obvious lack of exactitude. 3175: 1672:

an official language in Algeria (maybe in 2100 when all Berber languages will be dead) and that fact should be reflected in the article (Tamazight is not official

2506:- I have a question. What would be the reason for A? What is the reasoning as to why the three versions of the name should not all be included in the article? 105:

Nobody said or even suggested that French is an official language. However, as a lingua franca, it is used everywhere and by everyone, including the politicians.

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Last point, all references to french language should be removed since it does not have any official status in this country and is not used except in one region.

884:

The American Gemini program captured several interesting images of Algeria from space that could be used in the geography section or a new geology section.

696:

You replaced the note that explains what the CIA World Factbook says about the ethnic self-identification of the Algerians with some genetic gibberish. Why?

2405:

I think that there is a three-part question, and I think that one part of the question can be resolved, and two parts can be submitted to the community by

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An Algerian academy for the Tamazight language shall be established .. to develop the Tamazight language in order to integrate it as an official language

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to mention the Tamazight version of the name in all three systems within the Name section of the article. (I do agree with renaming the section header.)

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Apart from being irrelevant, what is foreign and what isn't depends on which side of the fence you sit on. To the Berbers, Arabic is a foreign language.

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That's what the name section that has been created recently is for, and frankly, as it stands, having those unsourced names in it is already a stretch.

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I'm glad someone started this discussion about the formation parameter which seems to attract a lot of needless attention from some SPAs. I will ping

549: 408:. So rather than repeat what had been addressed so far, I suggest you read the previous comments. The debatable etymology of the name is irrelevant. 4869:

Seeing as some users are committed to disruptive editing this page, I suggest that this article be moved under protected status for a little while.

3070:. I don't think that we need an RFC for the Name section, which does list all of the forms of the name. I don't think that we need an RFC for the 2374:

has removed previous edits where I included the name at the beginning of the article. I still disagree with not including the name in the infobox.

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Whether Western Sahara is a sovereign state or non-self-governing one (as described by the UN) is irrelevant to Algeria's geographical position.

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Tamazight is an official language of Algeria and has been since 2016 as outlined by the Algerian constitution, article 4 (please see this link:

1689:(and yours converges with mine), but an interpretation is not a valid argument (Original research?) for deleting a sourced and consistent name ( 3844: 3815: 173:

Unlike other Maghreb countries (Tunisia, Morocco, Mauritania), Algeria isn't even part of the Francophonie. It is only part of the Arab League.

2028:(with regard to the fact that it's not codified) was simply ignored, along with their uncalled for accusations, since it contradicts what the 1658:

L’Académie qui s'appuie sur les travaux des experts, est chargée de réunir les conditions de la promotion de Tamazight en vue de concrétiser,

1129:, needs to explain why we (as Wikipedians) should: a) chose one alphabet over the other and b) use a language that is yet to be standardized. 253:"They speak their mother tongue, the Algerian language, which is a mixture of many languages." The correct name is not Algerian language, but 4709: 512: 2944:

Maybe we're looking at different sources, but they don't look the same to me. I suggest you provide the APS links that you're referring to.

2884:

While the name section has the names, some important information is still missing. What reliable source did you use for the Arabic version?

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that uses all three scripts of Tamazight. The official Latin name can also be found in this Tamazight version of the Algerian constitution

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thinks, you should have proposed an RFC a while ago. Even now you are trying to impose your own vision and formulation on the RFC that @

2340:

Along those same lines, I wouldn't object if we moved the French long-version of the name out of the infobox and into the Name section. —

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Either you address the raised issues or you start another thread where you can ask questions whose answers can be found in the article.

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No, it's official. It just means that they are waiting for the "académie de la langue amazighe" to do its job (as I explained before).

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Should the Etymology section be renamed Name, and include the Arabic name, the French name, and the three forms of the Tamazight name?

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I already did and anyone who disagrees is free to seek consensus (for the same reason that you mentioned when you reverted Daran75).

3887: 1063:). I have deleted it, and this is simply to explain why. A 3O is for cases where no agreement can be reached on the talk page and 4208:

Why people remplaced fatimid by sulaymanid ? Fatimid was born in kingdom of kutama (Algeria) and suleymanid was arab vassal dynasty

894: 4951:(who just reverted the OP's revert after adding a bunch of entries to the Morocco article) to see where they stand on this issue. 2106:

the official name in the Name section is still missing. I will add it in the three writing scripts, unless there is an objection.

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The fact that you think that your unilateral decisions should only be reverted after a consensus is found screams of entitlement.

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First, the infobox must have a representation of the Tamazight name. As outlined by article 4 of the Algerian constitution

222:

of Tamazight should be added, because it is a real language of Algeria, but not the name of a foreign language like French.

4906:

Protection is about stopping disruptive editing and revert war. Please try to read the guidelines before using Knowledge.

3986: 797: 789: 3874:"In February 2016, the Algerian constitution passed a resolution that made Berber an official language alongside Arabic." 3267:

Only difference is that i d put the native berber language first and the foreign languages like arabic and french after.

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No. The Tifinagh and Latin writings of the official name that I added are the same in APS and in other official sources.

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Nobody is suggesting otherwise. We're just acknowledging the fact that it's an integral part of the native language, the

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Why are singling out the Arabic Berber alphabet? What you added is the Arabic and not the "Berber Arabic version" (as

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defined in law? What is it? (It may have been inherited from French colonial law and just transposed at independence).

4872:

Knowledge explicitly encourages consensus to be found especially on large edits on important articles like this one.

1416:

The French wiki is unreliable. The second source does not contradict what I said above, and is therefore irrelevant.

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

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https://www.aps.dz/tamazight-tal/algerie/2874-asenfar-u%C9%9Biwed-n-tmendawt-tamazi%C9%A3t-d-tutlayt-tun%E1%B9%A3ibt

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this article is probably the only non-protected one that talks about a country, which gave vandalism a chance here

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The official name of Algeria is derived from Arabic (Al-Jaza'ir = The islands), and has nothing to do with French.

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Plus we can find tbe info into the new version of the algerian constitution as well. It is mentionned clearly.

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The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

1665: 335:, which is a mixture of many languages, including, but not limited to Algerian Arabic, French and Berber. It's 4194: 1968: 1906: 1862: 1816: 1780: 1732: 1705: 1601: 1383:

May we safely conclude that you do not have a published source that specifies the orthography for Tamazight? —

1256:

Needless to remind you that Algeria is not Morocco. Again, for the nth time, I suggest you read what I wrote.

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