Talk:Astrology/Archive 4 - Knowledge (XXG)

1306:

refered to in the Rig Veda as steps of the PRESERVER, Vishnu, which means that the History of Astrology, as believed by most and suggested as fact on this Wiki page, is false. The mention of the Zodiac in the Vedas suggests that the Zodiac (like our 9/0 number system) came from India, rather than being imported there from the Babylonians. So these are important issues the Astrology Community should have access to and discuss as sentient beings, not as desparate people trying to defend our mental grasp of these things, void from any direct or REAL knowledge. PNB presents Astrology in terms of an Evolution of Consciousness ... and to say that is some aberant intension of Astrological Study is shooting astrology in the foot or rather in the heart. "The Magical Carousel"(1978) explains the astrological signs and zodiac in terms of a whole cycle of movement in Time. Her work not somethink differnt than Astrology, it is just fundamental Knowledge about Astrology and the Zodiac that was truely lost in the Dark Ages. And whoever keeps deleting this stuff seems to like it that way. Such is the way it goes. The Troglodite Mind has the stage, and for some limite period of time, it succeed in obstructing the true vision of the whole... anyway for anyone truly interested in Astrology, the above mentioned book is a classic.

1465:

priest. He possessed an enlightened understanding that the Absolute created the universe in such a way that its very structure was designed to reflect the highest spiritual truth. It contained the mystery of a sacred and eternal order, the realization of which was the common matrix for an organization of all human knowledge. Present day astrology has lost these ancient origins and has become nothing more than a tool of the Ego concerned with the mundane affairs of the individual. In its present debilitated state it can make more or less accurate predictions but cannot provide any sense of meaning or purpose associated with its prognostications. If Astrology is ever to recover its respect and rightful place as science of the Cosmic Truth bridging the spiritual and material worlds, we must be willing to abandon astrological dogma of whatever stripe and return to the immediate lived experience as the source of our knowledge. Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet's work provides the foundation for this and takes us into an APPLIED COSMOLOGY which contains the seeds of a unique synthesis which promises to open the way for not only a new and meaningful astrological paradigm, but a new and revolutionary advances in both science and spirituality. R.E. Wilkinson/ Aeon Group

3392:

of superstition?) and start earning some hard cash from all those forecasts I make (and even some predictions) for individual people. You know, for me astrology is not about forecasting at all; it is about personal growth. The only claim I make (based on experience of what actually happens) is that over a period of a few years, people who come to see me (on average once a year) will become more rounded in their personalities, more settled in their lifestyles and a little happier in themselves; in some cases more accepting of the way things are for them, in other cases more stimulated to change things for the better. That is what I have been given the credit for, over and over again. Playing a role like that in society, even though it may only affect a few thousand people, is a real privilege for me. I'm proud to be able to look back over so many tributes from people who found that what I did for them was truly helpful. In the benighted world we live in, teetering on the brink of disaster thanks mainly to all the wonderful advances of science and technology, I'm really pleased to have eased the paths of so many people. Well, I'm off now; but God-willing I'll try to pop in from time to time just to say hi!

2792:"Chelsea will win this match 2-1 against Spurs" - much more specific, and I would have thought, more testable (by just waiting to see the result - no science needed). If you're still keen, Jefffire, to apply your techniques and practice your methods, there are a few people on the list of astrologers who are (or at least were) doing the second type - I suggest you try to speak to them. Dr David Frawley, for example, and Bernadette Brady (and several hundreds of notable others not on the list). I, for one, would just love to see your pseudo-scientific methods of prediction pitted against their astrological methods of prediction. I would pay good money to see the contest!!! By the way, these people have to be paid of course, so you'll need to get your funding sorted out first. Well, here I am getting drawn in again; clearly just moving to another topic is not going to shake you off Jefffire! Signing off, helpful as always, but would love to speak to someone who can actually talk astrology instead of obsessing about science all the time. Otherwise, I think I won't bother. 3655:

abilities. It is available in reports signed by Nobel prizewinning scientists from Cambridge University and elsewhere. You'd have to be arrogant to claim that you could design a tighter series of experiments than those clever people did. In the past Matthew frequently demonstrated his powers on main channel TV around the world. But because you personally didn't see it, it might as well not have happened? The trouble with having so many conjurors and illusionists around is that many of us start to think that everything unusual or unexpected must have been achieved by deceitful means. I know I do. As for reading thoughts, that is no big deal, surely? Even I can do that in a small way, but am certain I could not do it to order - it's one of those things that just happen or not. Native Australians still living in the traditional way say that people who have stuff to hide are the only ones who are NOT able to read thoughts like an open book - like 99 percent of Westerners I would guess; making the "wild" natural-living people the odd ones out in this twisted world.

1961:

group", or actually make a number of simple yes/no predictions and ticking off which ones "hit". But one can "force" them to make such statements, by eg. taking all predictions over the last 50 years, selecting the yes/no ones and checking them. True falsification is not going to happen - just like we will (probably) not see a rock floating upwards, we will not see a life or groups of lives that coincide with birthdates so weirdly that astrology is disproven. But unlike the theory of gravity, we are not hearing a claim from astrology that such and such a phenomenon (eg. "an aries becoming the first drag juggler on the moon") is not going to take place according to the theory (like Newton saying rocks will never float up). It is rather the case that we will find no signifigant correlations, ie. that there is no phenomenon at all. I think this should be mentioned in the intro, I am not sure exactly how to put it (also looking to avoid an edit-war here).

2060:

pseudo-science. I'm modifying this claim to say that some parts that I call 'astrological statements' are indeed falsifiable. However, the entire gestalt of astrology is typically unfalsifiable because caveats are continually added by astrologers to the statements. This makes it untestable by any criteria acceptable to both scientist and astrologer. For example, not all astrologers would say that people born at the same time and place share the same traits. They would, however, draw upon the notion of 'essences' of the planets and say that they persons have the same unchanging essences, with different existential manifestations. They might say that one person has 'overcome' the negative traits of a configuration while the astrological twin has not. These positions cloud the possibility of genuine falsifiable experiments and make astrology as a whole appear generally unfalsifiable.

1286:

not policing the further reading section and let the art of astrology be more deeply explored than the offerings by Robert Hand. I have also attempted to put in a section called Astrology and the Enneagram with reference to the Gnostic Circle (and an image). Both the reference and the image were deleted. Again why erase this valid information about the study of astrology. This woman gives evidence of Western Astrology in the Rig Veda, I think I put in a section about that too, which was deleted. Just because mainstream astrology doesn't see these things as supporting their profession, is that reason to delete the information. People with gravitate towards certain astrological tendencies, but why limit the valid offerings. Any tips on creating a section that could account for some kind of progressive, new looks at astrology ... that won't get deleted by the astrology page police?

3595:

astrologer whether they have any astrological expertise or not. The APAI was set up to start to address this. A similar situation applies in acupuncture, where any medical doctor can practice it legally after just three weeks training, even though all the main colleges of acupuncture (particularly the mother courses in China) insist that full training takes twelve or more arduous years. Astrology is an equivalent discipline and very tough to master, so few people go the whole way. Result: fraud often happens in the name of astrology. I'm not trying to convince you, Mystylplx, of my point of view; it would be nice however, if at least some of you guys could be a bit more tolerant of things you do not yet understand, and allow the possibility that you do not know everything there is to know.

133:"Psychological astrology" is not a major tradition. It's not even a tradition. ALL the techniques used by people who call themselves "psychological" astrologers are the same ones that are used by everyone else--usually minus several dozen, actually. It's an approach. Add it, and the "spiritual astrology" lobby will want to put their hammock too, and a hundred others. They are all part of the approaches of modern western astrology. Uranian and Cosmobiology are radically different approaches that pretty much ignore most of the earlier tradition. I think "psychological" shouldn't be on the list. (By the way, the Hamburg School is Uranian astrology, completely and congruently. It was redundant to list it.) 1510:

discussion to start a "Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Controversies" web-forum to welcome criticisms and controversies around her work. It is clear WIKIPEDIA is not the place for such discussions. I will post a link to the PNB Controversies forum when it is up, for anyone interested in making a serious critique of PNB's contributions to and claims regarding the increasingly sickly art of astrology. Please no nasty rants based on no actual knowledge of what PNB presents. Mature criticism and questions will be welcome. I apologize for the attempt at sharing what I've found to be crucial to understanding astrology... and disturbing the peace of your belief system. Mea Culpa ... Namaste.

2314:

statements that one would say can be falsified, but psychology itself is never allowed to be so. If astrology is falsifiable, then there must be some statements that it (as a whole) claims is true about the outside world - if this statement/prediction then turned out wrong, astrologers (generally) would revolutionize their art or give it up. I do not believe there is any such statement and therefore I do not believe astrology to be falsifiable - but I am all for including a note saying that its adherents make falsifiable claims all the time (however much they would want to distance themselves from them afterwards) and that these can be and are being falsified.

658:

know more about science, and deeply regret the closure of so many university science courses through lack of demand. It would help if there were any astrological proof that science is worthwhile, as people would actually read that. It would also help if ordinary people knew for sure that science was helping the world to be a better, safer place and not causing everything worth having (like clean air to breathe for example) to be destroyed. I would say to the scientists who put urine in tobacco to make it more addictive and phosphorus in fire-bombs so that victims still burn when they jump into the village pond: clean up your own act,

1979:. Originators of the argument that astrology is non-falsifiable, such as Popper, are looking at astrology as a whole entity, as they would biology or another science. This is to assume right away that something intelligible can be claimed about astrology as a whole without breaking it down into its parts. There are a number of astrological statements that someone can find in an astrology cookbook that, in isolation, are clearly falsifiable. The problem is that the practitioner would then, (by being pressed or by considering a rule attached to the statement), clarify additional conditions (in the chart) that modify the claim. 562:

points in a natal chart alone--the positions of the sun, moon and rising sign--can be combined in 1728 ways, not even counting the 30 degree span of each sign. After that there are still the positions of the eight other planets, each in one of twelve signs of 30 degrees each, and each of these in one of twelve locations in the night (or daytime) sky, these locations changing constantly with the time of day and the longitude and latitude of an event. I have yet to see a "scientific" study where anyone has even bothered to do the math, much less "investigate" more than a microscopic fraction of these possible combinations.

1167:

the word "we" when I've been assured there is no collaborative action, I'll let that pass. The dispute began when Jefffire labelled me a troll, which, having read the guidelines on the subject, does not appear to me to be a justifiable accusation. He also used debunking techniques on me, which I detest and loathe. Logically, if debunkers had any kind of case they would not need to use deceptive methods in their arguments. I realise deception is a part of nature, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. That's the dispute - easily solved, I think, with a corrective action from Jefffire.

449:

concerto in "C" and Bill Clinton played a saxophone solo in "C" when jamming with the band on Saturday Night Live, the two performances should be indistinguishable from each other. There's always more to any astrology chart than an experiment can isolate--there is absolutely no way to have a proper "control group" in astrology, for example, because no two charts are ever alike. I'm sorry that reductionistic science hits so many dead ends trying to draw boundaries around the infinite expanses of astrology, but its failure to do so doesn't automatically mean astrology is a superstition.

3419:

will turn blue, a meterologist says it will probably rain tomorrow and a astrologer advices you about a good date to start you new firm, are they claiming to do better than chance? The answer is yes, also in the case of the astrologer; if he was merely guessing, he would be doing essentially nothing, his services would be meaningless to himself and his clients - it is because they all claim to be doing better than chance that we say they are 'predicting', some may disagree with this term - it matters not, what matters is that they are claiming to do better than chance and therefore

1716:

which they do not believe are good enough. I am a skeptic, I wish I were a debunker but I do not have the time. Neither has to do with what one actually believes, but what is needed for one to believe something. If astrology showed better results than guessing in controlled, double-blind experiments, for instance - many skeptics (myself included) would believe in it, even if they were also "debunkers". Oh, and not believing in anything would be a "absolute skepticism" (a sort of "strawman" philosophical standpoint) or nihilist (mostly reserved for non-belief in moral values).

3797:

person’s brainwave pattern. If those reports don't satisfy you, nothing will. I've seen him work. In 1980 he cured my mother-in-law of 90% deafness in ten minutes - a condition she had since she was four. In 20 mins he also cured my wife of a tendency to miscarry. After thirteen years of upsetting miscarriages she was able to bring a child to full term for the first time. That child is the same age as you, Lundse. I watched MM solidly for a month (and occasionally over six years) doing dozens of very remarkable cures. He himself makes no claim to cure anyone.

1932:-- the practice of interpreting and prognosticating events on earth by relating them to the movements and relative positions of the stars and other heavenly bodies. The belief in invisible influences from the stars on terrestrial bodies provided a basis for practices of astral magic. Classical astrology declined around the 6th century but flourished again in Christian culture from the 12th century through the 17th. Within more limited esoteric and occultist contexts, astrology once again became popular from the early 19th century on. 499:

of course). Scientists would have a hard time if they did ever try any such suppression - they'd be pissing in the wind. Look at that ridiculous episode with the 176 Nobel prize winners who said astrology was rubbish, by their authority and great knowledge of the subject. 66 percent of the public read their horoscope that day, same as the day before and the day after! Luckily for astrologers, the public has enough sense to ask scientists about science, astrologers about astrology. You're a very polite person JoshuaZ; I like that.

1472:

trace to the point when Plato was removed--well, when the scientific and religious props were removed--from astrology. Spun off by itself it looks quite pathetic in its present state. But one further difference: like it or not, astrology IS a very materialist, earthbound art. It was meant to be. Why would anyone look at their stars for their own personal spiritual revelation? Where was anything like that to be found in the ancient art? There's very little of it. Astrology is concerned with this life, with life itself.

2082:

that the case then there would be no more "popular astrology" left. Even the most gullible among us still demands some degree of prediction which actually means something. If astrologers did nothing but the kind of double-talk you are referring to they would be out of jobs. The whole appeal of astrology is it presents a believable image of accurate predictions for groups of people. That part is falsifiable. Take that away from them and, as a practical matter, the whole field vanishes.

1460:"Astrology was once the Queen of the Sciences. just look at how we have fallen in the world! During the last four hundred years, physics came out of nowhere and made great strides. Meanwhile, astrology not only ceased to cultivate but completely lost touch with its own theoretical roots. The real problem: THE ASTROLOGY OF TODAY LACKS ANY COHERENT THEORETICAL BASIS. Unlike the physicists, we cannot give a good account of ourselves. What it really needs is a GLORIOUS RESTORATION." 1141:

divert the subject to your own safe ground; therefore I suppose it was pointless me offering to discuss anything at all with you, though my intention was to be of use. We all live in our own little world, you and I included. I think it would be best all round if I leave you to the safe little reality you have created for yourself on this website. Recent events (that you and I both know about) show that you and your mates have got it quite well sewn up - I'll give you that.

180:

structure surrounding it. One example that is on the current list is the so-called Kabbalistic astrology. I think that this is just an adaptation of Medieval or Modern astrology to the Kabbalah, and not a specific tradition in it of itself. But I'm not positive on that. I didn't want to delete the reference quite yet in the event that someone wanted to defend it. But maybe there should be a discussion about how this should be dealt with in the future. --

1295:

other traditions, and there is no reason to give each one of them a prominent display on the main astrology article no matter how good some people think that they may be. There are size restrictions on wikipedia articles after all, so only the most widespread and influential traditions of astrology should have sections. That doesn't stop you from working on the specific article pertaining to that school though. Thats my take on the issue at least. --

3123:

this gap in perception is why so many people fork out hard cash from their own pocket for astrology, but would not do so for a weather forecast - it has to be provided from taxes or licence fees forcibly extracted from all of us. As for your 500 tests, you'll have a hard job to convince me they weren't all guaranteed to fail from the outset - because all they test is the claims debunkers make about astrology. Conjuring tricks have never interested me.

3904:

via. google (2 neutral, 1 saying there was no "confirmation"). Whatever ignorance we skeptics have about astrology it does not change the one fact you and every other astrologer I have met here has failed to addres: we need some sort of proof/citation in order to claim there is any good reason to believe astrology is more than superstition. One does not need to be an astrologer to know this, contrarily, it seems one cannot quite accept it if one is.

1363:

scholarship in the field. Surely if references to astrology were so prevalent in the Rig Veda, then they would have been pointed out and acknowledged by more scholars than just one woman who wrote a few books a couple of decades ago? I'm not trying to suppress any important information here, and I certainly think that this deserves its own article in order to represent this woman's argument, but the main astrology article is not the place. --

2991:

the words "forecast" and "prediction"; we make a distinction that, in our silly way, is quite real to us. You don't? Too bad. My Oxford dictionary defines prediction as "prophesy". As in: "And now, here is the weather prophesy for the South" Has a different ring to it, somehow. Now then, I've given you guys something hard to go on - are you going to do the tests or not? No excuses please - apparently it would make you look like an astrologer!

31: 154:

predict anything. In this way, the psychological camp is purposely trying to distance itself from the other traditions by invoking an explict ban on what one of the purposes of the art was for centuries. Plus you have a different theoretical and philosophical model predicated on Jung and Rudhyar which also brings along with it specific techniques which inform the rest of the system, like Rudhyar's lunation cycle for example.

896: 3719:

not going to make it easy for you with refs) you'll be able to maintain your present views. One comment: things you seem to regard as extraordinary are ordinary and everyday to me. My "worldview" as you put it earlier, has been developed and was well-formed before you were even born, by events that would (I surmise, from your comments) be unimaginable to you, let alone impossible to credit. It is

3770:

are suggesting that their view might be equally valid - which is suggesting that the reason that I cannot read minds is my own fault for having stuff to hide. You were definitly appealing to the "natives good, civilization bad" sentiments, which I do take offence from and will put into perspective by showing how it is the same as indicting all Westerns as inherently wrong or evil.

266:

analysis--all coming from different traditions, looking at the same data. Whether you're looking at the ruler of the tenth or figuring out the oikodespotes or running a Vedic dasamsa varga chart, it's the technical approaches that differentiate the tradition, not what we apply them to. That is the distinction. Wake me up when you stop shaking a rattle at the smallpox victim.

1423:

fact interpolations. Pingree always said that horary was invented in India and that it first appears in the Yavanajataka, but from what I can tell, he never went into too much detail as to why he was discounting Dorotheus. I'm confident that I can show why he took this stance and settle this issue once and for all. I will let you know when I have finished the paper. --

2264:

works! Sorry: 1 - What we think of as Greek mythology started in Ethiopia. 2 - No mythology, no chart interpretation. Yes, this is the biggest leap of logic regarding Astrology. We can't explain WHY, but the best explaination we have at the moment is still Carl Jung's connection between "race memory" (the collective unconscious) and our individual dream state.

1010:. It may be acceptable when you are just with your buddies, all ho-ho-ing about how stupid astrology is, but once you are out of that cosy context and in the real world you really have to address the issues and leave the tight-lipped prejudice behind - or be dismissed as lightweight, time-wasters, or worse. Once again, I make the plea: can we please begin to discuss 3859:

freely acknowledge the important role skeptics could play in getting a great many astrologers (me included, of course) to "tighten up our act" and pay attention to the different ways scientists and pseudo-scientists might have in looking at the subject. But this has to be done from a position of knowledge of the subject on their part, not from ignorance, surely?

1278:=Important Astrologers: John Addey, Nicholas Campion, Charles Carter, Reinhold Ebertin, Charles Emerson, Martin Goldsmith, Liz Greene, Robert Hand, Charles Jayne, J. Lee Lehman, Jim Lewis, William Lilly, Bill Meridian, Neil Michelsen, Michael Munkasey, Richard Nolles, Maritha Pottenger, Lois Rodden, Dane Rudhyar, Noel Tyl, Alfred Witte, Karen Hamaker-Zondag. 1886:"Also, the adjectives... "mercurial" (Mercury), "martial" (Mars), "jovial" (Jupiter/Jove), and "saturnine" (Saturn) are all old words used to describe personal qualities said to resemble or be highly influenced by the astrological characteristics of the planet, some of which are derived from the attributes of the ancient Roman gods they are named after." 405: 166:

completely different technical structure which is one of the characteristics that defines different traditions. The issue at this point, I think, is whether or not the different philosophical and theoretical stance is enough to warrent a listing as a separate tradition. In the future, please keep the personal attacks to yourself. Thanks. --

2546:"opportunity"). When astrologers mention the term "solar-eclipse" in an interpretative sense to each other, they are thinking "crisis" in the Chinese, not the English sense, together with all the nuances stemming from this combination. William Lilly, one of the most revered authorities in traditional astrology, described astrology as an 520:

Sun, Moon, and planets at the moment we are born somehow affects our subsequent personality, career, or love-life...However, astrology is also the field in which the largest number of scientific tests have been performed and the evidence clearly demonstrates that astrological connections are no more than wishful thinking."

108:

the extraneous information so that there is more space for broad sections on the different traditions. I think that since horoscopic astrology is the dominant world tradition, that it does deserve a larger space for explanation in the article, but I'm open to other opinions about the subject. Lumos? --

2192:

of stubborn (all of the time? some of the time?), or undecisive , or prideful ? Trait theory is pretty much out the window in personality psychology anyway, and what natural scientist would touch identity theory? I'm personally with Popper that some theories in psychology are entirely unfalsifiable.

3796:

These tests produced a large number of scientific reports on his psychic healing ability, and Matthew was able to demonstrate under laboratory conditions his capacity to influence the rate of degradation of human blood cells and enzymes, the death rate of cancer cells, and the remote influencing of a

3533:

Similarly with StormRider, regrettably just one point picked on to defend myself against your slur. Can you show me any evidence of a "snake-oil salesman" who has these tangible tokens of customers appreciation? (You word is the only evidence I shall ask for). If not, I would appreciate it if you did

3483:

Mayo, doing work that aids people is important and needed in this world. However, is a snake-oil salesman helpful because he sold his oil to people who swear they got better from using it? The concepts of placibo and suggestion can have amazing affects on indivdiduals. However, I am still not sure

3474:

Hartmann, a researcher in the Department of Psychology at Denmark's University of Aarhus, added, "This does not necessarily mean that all astrology is without truth, but only that the independent effect of sun signs is most likely to be irrelevant. As for the weekly horoscope based on mere sun signs,

2791:

Words can morph together in your language, I see, but astrologers make a nice distinction between the two terms "forecast" and "prediction". For example, an accurate forecaster might say "I suggest that Chelsea are likely to do well overall this season". An accurate predictor is more inclined to say:

2288:

The introduction as it currently reads seems mostly POV; there is nothing significant that casts doubt on this "science" except for the benign "There is no widely accepted evidence that astrology has a scientific basis." I wonder how many scientists would support a similar statement? I suspect that

2263:

Astrology is a craft that is still in process after 5,000 years. Sorry about gravitons, but the latest theories of physics sez: Goodbye "Gravity", Hello "Attraction". Further advances in the hard sciences do NOT discredit Astrology, but actually lead toward a more relevant explanation as to how it

2229:

I'd have to read Poppers essay to be able to comment on that, but as it stands I'm pretty sure psychology isn't listed as a pseudoscience in Knowledge (XXG). But even if we throw out standardized psychological tests it's still possible to test whether a group of tauruses display the charecteristic we

2191:

I think you are making the mistake of assuming all predictive statements are falsifiable. The criterion of falsifiability is tied to the scientific method. How do you devise a legitimate experiment to test whether or not someone 'is' in fact, and not only that there self-conception matches the traits

1815:

How one can deny the fact that 5,000 years back written the book titled " Vasist Samhita" had explained the system of adopting weekdays & its application in respect of Hora (24 divisions of daytime)& many other usages in astrology. The book is still available, exclusively on the subject of

1811:

I would like to have comments on the matter than merely on the "words". I had placed true information with documentry evidence. What more is needed. If some one has more information then, he is free to place his views with supporting documents. Superiority of one system over the other is a matter of

1781:

How does it matters whether a perticular branch of astrology was originated in a perticular region of the world - the relevant point is, whether present day astrologers are ready to grasp & follow the best information available on the subject, and whether they are ready to develop specialisation

1707:

Please do not insult the intelligence of the readers of this page - namecalling does not consist of calling people Herbert, it means insulting people and that is what you are doing. Therefore, unless you change your ways, this will be my last response to you. I will, however, point out a few problems

1509:

Enough of this Discussion. Cling to the Standard Astrological rap as you will. Whoever the jerk is, Good Luck in Your studies and with your animosity. If any of you want to chew more on your refusal to admit PNBinto the "illustrious" Important Astrologers category, I have been inspired by this CRAPPY

1455:

I would like to add my name to the call for more information concerning the foundations of Astrology. In my opinion, Astrology has degenerated to the point that it is virtually unrecognizable as the high art that was practiced in ancient times. In support of the fact that I am not alone in this view,

1422:

Actually, I had been meaning to talk to you about that. I'm working on a paper right now where I'm going to show definitively that horary in fact wasn't in Dorotheus, and that the 5 sections which refer to horary in the English translation of the Arabic translation of the Pahlavi translation, are in

1404:

I am always amazed at this claim, since the names of all the Sanskrit signs are Babylonian cognates. Wouldn't it be the other way around if the material came from India? Also, Chris, I didn't know anyone thought horary came from India? Did it? It's clearly well-established when we first see it in

1233:

Further when we have now specialist in the field of each branch of the knowledge like engineering, science, medicine, law, economics … ; how come that we have not felt the need for specialist astrologers in specific branch of astrology, & have been accepting astrologers capable to guide aspirants

1166:

I actually trust you Lundse (instinctively, if that's not a dirty word), and respect your opinion as well as your objectivity, which is why I am happy to have my stuff deleted if you personally think that's the best thing (i.e. not moved, thanks all the same). Although I'm wondering why you just used

978:

I have now had time to look up the expression: Troll. The guidelines state that the "...characterising feature of trolling is the perception of intent to disrupt a community in some way...In forums where most users are similar to each other, outsiders may be perceived as trolls simply because they do

750:

Irrelevent. Getting up on a soapbox to rail against 'scientists' is not what wikipedia is about. None of the scientist I know have ever made white phosphorus or urinated on a cigarette. Most are engaged in trying to save the clean air you accuse them of trying to destroy. If you have a valid point to

243:

You list "Market analysis Astrology", "Financial Astrology", and "Economic Astrology", which are all the same thing. This subject isn't a specific tradition, but it is an application of the principles of other pre-existant branches of horoscopic astrology (i.e. natal, horary, mundane) to the subject

211:

Who's dictating "technical structure"? Valid and distinct themes have been ignored: Weather Astrology, Market Analysis Astrology, Political Astrology, Relocational Astrology, Compatibility/Synastry Astrology, Financial Astrology, Economic Astrology, Historical Analysis Astrology, Mundane Astrology,

3924:

If you had integrity, you would note that a lot of us who added our own names to the List of Astrologers has been into the topic for decades, we have reputations which other noted Astrologers know us and, in my case, I've added the names of many prominent Astrologers who I've known for 25-35 years.

3903:

You anecdotal evidence does not belong here, it will convince noone and it does smack of a soapbox as Jeffire pointed out. Noone here is claiming to do better than nobel prize winners, but if they conducted studies on MM, I would like to know the results of those studies - I can only find the titles

3463:

A new study is coming out to be published in May's "Personality and Individual Differences" journal regarding sun signs. It is one of the largest studies of the possible link between human traits and astrology. It found little, if any, connection between the traditional sun signs of the zodiac and

3418:

I just had to chime in again, here; if for nothing else than to show my colours. First of about prediction and forecasting. This is extremely simple, when you think of it - are the people doing either thing claiming that they are doing better than chance? So when a chemistry student says some liquid

3391:

Well, it's been fun and I'd like to thank you two for being such good sports and putting up with my intrusion into your cosy enclave with reasonably good grace and civility, but now it's time for this rather Chironic person I call "me" to get back to the real world (or perhaps I should say the world

3122:

Well you see, that's where we part company Mystylplx. Weather is a favourite topic for Uk residents, and up my street (and in every other street I've ever lived or stayed) the consensus seems to be: "see what the weather forecast says, then assume the opposite, it's more likely to be right". I guess

2990:

predictions, astrology just makes a lot of excuses???)", which I didn't think people like yourself with scientific leanings indulged in; it's so...unscientific, somehow. The imprecision of your thinking is quite shocking to me. How can you conduct an accurate experiment if you're that woolly? As for

2680:

make a scientific claim; debunkers do so, on behalf of astrologers. Astrologers (with the noteable exception of Horary Astrology) are taught to "forecast" - not predict. Just like the weather forecast, you don't jump on it just because it is usually wrong, as it is only intended as a guide. And yes,

2531:

don't label it a pseudoscience if you wish to be accurate. There are no doubt a few astrologers who believe they are practising a science (as it takes all sorts to make a world) but most make no such pretension. It has already been argued elsewhere on Wiki that astrology could accurately be labelled

2505:

I agree, the word itself (through no necesarry fault on any practitioners, but probably to the delight of some) makes people think of it as at least related to science. The article should make it clear in the intro that this is a pseudoscience (you can word that differently, if you like, but that is

1696:

Lundse, I'm not name calling. There's a difference between knowledge and wisdom. It appears your "knowledge" is limited to books (which you brag of reading) rather than experiential. You're NOT making ANY contribution to either the Supernatural or Astrological categories. You're not a sceptic.

1312:

I'm sure Tibetan Astrology, Mayan Astrology, Nine-Star-Key Astrology, Celtic Astrology, & American Indian Astrology are all more valid then your heroine's marketing gimmicks. While we're promoting our favorite Astrologers, let me endorse: Jefferson Anderson, Nicholas Campion, Reinhold Ebertin,

1305:

Thanks for the respectful feedback. The thing is, it is not a FORM of Western Astrology or Vedic ... It is straight up Astrology ... like the heading of the Wiki page. She writes about issues important to the whole of Astrology, such as noting that the classic Fixed Signs of the Zodiac are blatantly

1294:

Although I'm not the one that has been deleting your stuff for the most part, it seems that most of the stuff that you keep adding is just advertisements for your particular type of western astrology. The issue with this is that there are hundreds of minor types of western astrology, not to mention

1241:

One may excuse an astrologer claiming specialisation in “Remedial Astrology” if the results do not come, consoling oneself that it may be effect of his Karmas in this & last birth. But how come you can excuse an astrologer who has rendered guidance to an aspirant, who does not have even a single

1005:

On another point, I really detest the debunking techniques being applied to this page, which is why I made certain flamebait comments out of exasperation. Notably, ignoring genuine substance in a comment and picking on some small point to criticise despite its irrelevance to the essential content of

764:

Irrelevant Jefffire. Getting up on a soapbox to try to bolster science's popularity in an article on astrology is not helpful, and is not what Knowledge (XXG) is all about. Your personal friendships are irrelevant, and you cannot scientifically disprove there are such scientists simply by saying you

498:

No, I didn't know that JoshuaZ! But then, I can't honestly claim I've ever been interested in either pseudoscience or superstition or know anything about them; only astrology. I've never heard of any astrologers claiming that science tries to suppress their work (which doesn't mean there aren't any,

448:

Most astrologers are sick of explaining, because "scientists" don't investigate it sufficiently. A good analogy is to say an astrology chart is like a complete symphony, but "scientific" experiments invariably isolate a single note--let's say middle C--and then state that since Mozart wrote a violin

400:

I would like to get some submissions for a different main image for the article. I don't really like the current one very much, and it doesn't seem like anyone else is that into it either. So I was thinking that maybe we could get some submissions and then vote to keep the current image or replace

254:

Do your homework. As a member of the International Society of Business Astrologers (ISBA, HQ in Copenhagen), I beg to differ. "Financial Astrology" & "Vocational (Career) Astrology" refers to a particular study of an individual's natal chart. "Economic Astrology" has to do with the study of a

4000:

No one said the topics couldn't be included (even environmental whatever-it-is) -- only that if there's no article to link to, what in the world is the purpose of the link? First write your article, then link it. I didn't deplore the inclusion of these topics and I also didn't know it was you who

3966:

which appears to have the only explanation of midpoints in astrology in Wiki anyway. I'd love to write an article on harmonic charts sometime in the future, but it's a research project for me; I've only got an educated practitioner's knowledge of the subject. In any case, it's not in Wiki and the

3949:

As it is, the "See Also" section is a wide collection of favorite hobbyhorses--the lobbyists' lobby. And that's quite appropriate. But it's very long--so long that its impact is minimalized. So why include three links that go nowhere? There are three red links with no corresponding pages. They

3723:

worldview that still needs to be formed, and you are quite correctly using caution in forming it. Advising me on how to form mine comes rather too late, and is a bit like "teaching your grandmother how to suck eggs". By the way, I neither said, suggested nor inferred you were a "narrow-minded or an

3718:

That's good, Lundse, that you do not just believe - why should you? Most of the troubles in the world started with people being persuaded to believe in something. Always best to find out for yourself. Plenty of stuff about Matthew Manning in the public domain, but if you decline to seek it out (I'm

3650:

Once again you have got me wrong, Lundse. You are a one for reading into things! I was not giving evidence, simply explaining my POV. And my remark about "not knowing everything" is addressed not to skeptics like yourself, who of course have enough humility to realise that we are all limited in our

3624:

If someone could really accelerate plant growth or whatever, why not make the experiment in front of live tv cameras - the media loves that kind of thing and puts even the most ridiculous claims and most failed ideas on primetime lauding them as succes. Something that worked would be even easier to

3434:

And MayoPaul, claiming that science is doing evil and therefore it is good not to be a scientist is pretty sad. Humans making bad decisions is the cause for misery, science is a force that can work for good or bad - your critique is like blaming the shovelmaker that someone whacked someone over the

2298:

I understand editors objectives to present the topic in the most favorable light possible. However, some balance should be possible so that this topic is not presented as a perfectly reliable path to guide one's life. It is a path for some people, but it certainly is not a reliable way to predict

2081:

The appeal of astrology to the masses are those very falsifiable predictions which people believe in. The majority of astrology is falsifiable. While it may be true that astrologers, if painted into a corner, would always be able to shift thier position untill they could still cast some doubt--were

2002:

Take gravity as an (already given) example--what causes gravity? Gravitons? Maybe... The curvature of space? No.... that explains the path objects will take intersecting a gravity well, but doesn't explain the pull itself nor why massive objects cause space to curve in the first place. Yet even not

1992:

I would simply say that if you remove "astrological statements" from "astrology" then all you have left are some interesting looking pie charts. Remove the predictions from astrology and what do you have left? Astrology is linked to mythology, (particularly Greek mythology) but the mythology exists

1898:

I don't know who wrote the above comment, but agree with the general tone of it. Just one point: As the planets were there long before the human concept of "gods", it seems likely that the planets gained their attributes first, later to be ascribed to gods. Does anyone know for sure either way? By

1719:

In the future, you should try commenting on peoples arguments or, failing that, at least their posts. You seem only to be able to comment on me and what I know, how wise I am, what I have read and how you see my contributions. This kind of attitude will not get you or your opinions far on wikipedia

1715:

On another note, I do not think you know the difference between skeptics and debunkers. A skeptic is someone who wants some form of (often stringent) demands on the kind of proofs they will accept before believing something. A debunker is someone who tries to show the silliness of beliefs and proof

1464:

It is my opinion that in order to understand the true essence of astrology, it must be seen in the context of its deepest spiritual truths which may be traced back to the Rig Veda. In that ancient Vedic civilization science and astrology were one. The sage was the scientist, the astrologer, and the

1322:

You must be quite the shmuck to make the above comment ... kind of poisonous ... anyway If you haven't seriously read her work then, why bother to make a dig at it, the author or at me for wanting to put forth some GREAT information. If you do ever read her work "The Magical Carousel" and still are

1155:

and we are merely asking you to move your personal comments to you userpage. We are willing to hear your evidence on these matters, whether notability or astrology. That said, I do not really know your discussion is about. How about starting over, where did you disagree to begin with (regarding the

1140:

Whether or not I have any edits to make is none of your business. You still have not downgraded the "trolling" accusation, or said why not, or removed the illustration, or tackled any of the points for discussion I have raised so far. So I can only assume that whatever I say, you will always try to

987:

I might have to accept and will try to avoid it in future, but trolling? Not in my opinion. Therefore I ask Jefffire to reconsider his accusation and downgrade it to something more justifiable. If he decides to leave his accusation as it stands (please say why), perhaps he could at least remove the

3976:

Rome wasn't built in a day. Where's the fire requiring immediately responding to your arbitary time table? When I write my movie scripts, I add layers at different times when I see where I can make an improvement - as does a painter. Those of you continually harrassing in the Astrology article,

3769:

About worldviews, then yours may have been formed before mine, I fail to see how that makes it more valid... It does not change a thing about encyclopedias, however, and the fact that we need some sort of citation for these things. And yes, by rehearsing the mythology of some group of natives, you

3620:

What I really wanted to point out was your comment that the skeptics should "allow the possibility that you do not know everything there is to know". This is getting it backwards - a skeptic does not claim that there is no psychic phenomenons or that current science has it all right or encompasses

3168:

It is that exact gap between "perception" and reality which is why it's so important to test these things. People tend to only notice the rare occasions when meteorologists are wrong because deep down they expect them to be right every time. People do the opposite with astrology, only noticing the

2716:

I just realised I didn't pick up on Jefffire's initial comment: "Astrology was a protoscience until the advent of astronomy". By this kind of high-school logic, for example, prehistory would no longer be described by that term because History succeeded it - clearly a ridiculous assertion. And yes,

2125:

character traits of their Sun signs. One's self-identity cannot be reasonable tested unless you use a personality inventory (even that is tricky business for science given how flexible the 'self' is), and sun sign information (I would go so far to say) has even shaped self-identity in many people.

2124:

Hmmm. Empirically speaking, I'm not sure predictability (in the strong sense) is the source of mass appeal. Most people know about horoscope columns and read them like an oracle or advice (e.g. 'You should be cautious about stepping on toes of people at work.'). Other than that, people read about

1375:

What about allowing ONE sentence in the history of astrology subtitle that makes reference to the fact that their are alternative theories of the history of astrology. One sentence that can give people the information that it is possible that astrology originated in India and later migrated to the

1329:

I have just added the "Astrology in the Rig Veda" section ... This is not something Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet made up, it is not someone's interpretation, it is not a gimmick, she had identified an obvious reference and correspondence of the Zodiac in the Rig Veda, which raises important issues to

1285:

I keep attempting to put something of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet's contributions to Astrology on this page and they keep getting deleted. Who is controlling this page? PNB's works, "The Magical Carousel" and "The Gnostic Circle" are not minor offerings to the Astrological community. Please consider

561:

Absolutely. I certainly don't agree with every loony passing him or herself off as an astrologer, nor pay much attention to the newspaper columns, but the basic tenets of astrology are incredibly complex, and can't be "thoroughly" investigated in less than 20 or 30 years. Just the 3 most important

519:

Sorry to be mean-spirited, but astrology has actually been well investigated—consistently, across-the-board, there is no evidence of its validity. From the Astronomical Society of the Pacific: "Perhaps the best known field of astronomical pseudo-science is the ancient idea that the position of the

463:

It could well be a superstition JoshuaZ. I'm surprised you care one way or the other! Reading this page I'm beginning to get the impression there are some scientific types around that feel threatened by the very existence of astrology as a living entity, let alone by its success in the eyes of the

107:

So, I finally started making some major revisions of the article tonight. Let me know if you have any issues or suggestions, or maybe if there is something that needs to be discussed. There is still a lot more to do. I only got through maybe half of it tonight. I'm trying to edit out a lot of

3438:

And finally on debunkers. You may call the people doing the studies whatever you like, but unless you challenge the data and the conclusions you are only namecalling. There just is not any data set out there which shows astrology doing better than chance, that is not because I am a skeptic, it is

2313:

So to sum up, we can agree that individual predictions/statements of astrology can be falsified (and indeed has been), but that astrologers then retreat into "that statement was not the one I would have made" or "it's more complex than that". Liken this to Poppers view on psychology, it too makes

1773:

It appears that the arguemet which I had put up giving reference of Hindu / Vedic / Jyotisha astrology in its defence has disturbed lot of readers. One only learns if has an open mind. Same talk is about Horary astrology, which lot of readers are not ready to accept that it originated exclusively

1659:

Lundse, I've found you under informed to have a relevant opinion in the Supernatural Project. Again, you prove yourself under-informed regarding the above issue. If you read closely you'll notice in the above, that the Italian author DANTE was cited. It's called literature. Try it some time.

915:

Great! Jefffire lectures me on being civil - but feels free to hand out whatever insults he likes! Tut-tut. Where I come from that is called sheer hypocrisy Jefffire. If you can't think of anything sensible, logical, civil or (dare I say?) astrological to say, you might be better employed in some

657:

an enduring interest (indeed fascination) in the subject by many, many more people than are even remotely interested in science. That's democracy for you. Personally I think it's a great shame that it's such an uphill struggle to get people interested in science - I for one would be interested to

581:

Well, I must say I take "20 or 30 years" as a further retreat into non-falsifiability. Not only can you not disprove this because it's not subject to disproof, you can't disprove this because it will take too long. Why is the onus on the disprovers to begin with, and not, as the scientific method

361:

Chris, good point about psychological astrology--I mean that it eschewed divination, which does set it apart in a very distinct way. People still get the heebs when you say your are using astrology to "tell fortunes." It's an unfortunate way in which the scientific bias has made an incursion in

179:

Actually, NaySay raises an exremely important question the more I think about it.. I don't really think that every different school of astrology should be listed when the technical structure of those systems isn't different from the others, and the only difference is the theological or religious

3858:

Well, my dears, we seem to have drifted well off the topic heading (falsifiability) and, of course, proved nothing either way. However, it has served to show me how totally dominated this "astrology" talk page is by debunkers who (thus far) have shown considerable ignorance of the subject. Yes I

3684:

I do not believe your viewpoints on native, this Matthew character or psychics in general is based on experience or proofs. If you do have proofs and citations, please let me know. I do not believe you can read minds, this does not make me narrow-minded or an evil Westerner out of touch with the

3496:

Just to say that I have read and I acknowledge all the above comments. Regrettably I don't have time to give the proper answers such considered statements deserve. As I have learned to value your opinion Lundse, I will just defend myself on one point. You say that I was "claiming that science is

2274:

That's all very nice. If astrology is a "craft" then it should market itself as such. Astrologers could set up boothes at craft fairs and sell pretty colored natal charts for people to hang on thier walls. But as long as astrologers continue to claim to be able to make accurate predictions about

2059:

Philosophers of science, Popper, Lakatos, Thagard, have all claimed that astrology is (more or less) unfalsifiable. Popper (in an essay "Science and Pseudoscience" ?? forget exact title) used astrology as an example (along with Freudian analysis) of what is unfalsifiable, which is a criterion of

1960:

I thought we should have a real discussion on this. I think astrology is in some ways falsifiable, but only if forced to be so. The adherents will never make a true falsifiable claim like "a signifigant portion of people born then and then will identify themselves as X more than a random control

1738:

I have rewritten the "effect on world culture" section, adding minor sections to it and down-sizing them (and removing the days of the week to its own page, as it was messy and seemed to include mistakes). In this process, I rewrote some sections, including work on the liberal arts thing - I now

1711:

The difference between knowledge and wisdom does not necesarrily mean that having one means one cannot have the other, so I really do not see where that bit of your argument is going. Your presumptions about my knowledge are sad - do you really need to believe all sorts of bad things about my in

1471:

Dear Mr. or Ms. Wilkinson: I do agree with your sentiments. The difficulty between us is that I think the Rig Veda claims are so very weak; there's no support for them. And the subtraction of meaning from Astrology that you feel so deeply, and with which I sincerely concur, could as easily be

3934:

Thank you for proving my point. MayoPaul - meet my previous experience with astrologers (again, I am sorry for the presumptions I started out communicating with you on, I hope you see were I was inspired). Note that he also uses the "don't know what..." argument, which is completely moot as the

3804:

say my worldview was more valid than yours - once again, you misrepresent me. I don't believe it, so why would I say it? About encyclopedias: of course what you say is correct. As for the rest of your comment all I can suggest is: "if the cap fits, wear it. Otherwise discard it". As a Westerner

3594:

Yes, Mystylplx, I expect you're right about SR. On the other matter, I have also heard some so-called astrologers and self-styled psychics give readings that are so generalised they could fit anybody or nobody. This is the problem with having an unregulated field where anyone can claim to be an

3538:

as I am alert to the usual tricks of debunkers). Also it would be false to liken me to any kind of salesman anyway, as I never advertise and never ask anyone to consult me. 90% of the people who consult me have heard the actual tape I made for someone they know and were so impressed they wanted

799:

whether it is a superstition or not - call it a pile of poo if you want. The opinion of debunkers on astrology has as little interest to astrologers (read: none) as the opinion of astrologers on debunking (which is that it is a stupid waste of time and effort, for the record) has for debunkers.

540:

presented in this article kind cheapens the claim that the subject has been 'investigated—consistently, across-the-board' you have to admit. Here is another article to add to that list which was written by one of the cofounders of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the

237:... You do realize, StarHeart, that the majority of the subjects that you just named are correctly listed further down the astrology article page in the 'branches of horoscopic astrology section', right? How does this even remotely constitute being "ignored"? In fact, lets go through these. 153:

I didn't add the psychological astrology link in, but I don't quite oppose it either because there are some interesting facets of the hardcore psychological camp which do set it apart from other traditions. One of the major ones that comes to mind is the rule that you aren't really supposed to

159:

As far as Uranian and the Hamburg School goes, in the US the two terms are synonymous, but I have heard that Uranian is considered to be a breakaway school, or a subset of the Hamburg School at this point in Europe because they are attempting some sort of reorganization of the system. I would

142:

To say that Psychological Astrology isn't a valid category is completely incompetent. Astrology started as a divinatory system. See The Moment of Astrology by Geoffrey Cornelius. But starting 1900-1930, psychological astrology shot off as a rocket with the intellectual Astrologers of Europe

3761:

I couldn't find anything in the Matthew guy, don't have his last name. But Uri Geller went around 'proving stuff on tv' for a long time and I do not believe in him either (I believe tv airs whatever gets viewers and damn the truth). You would not believe the amount of material on that sort of

3654:

Then you go on to say "If someone could really accelerate plant growth or whatever...etc". This attitude is precisely illustrating my point - too many scientists don't even believe one another's evidence if it conflicts with their ingrained beliefs. Matthew provided conclusive evidence of his

3501:

think is that a majority of scientists are engaged on what any reasonable person would describe as worthwhile and laudable projects and do enormous good, and would do more if the funding was available. A minority have undoubtely sold their soul to the devil, as with so many sectors of society

1362:

I removed the sections added by Saberlotus because the evidence for the claim is totally lacking, and it relies entirely on stretching the interpretation of a couple of terms in order to make its implausible case. I would also like to note that the argument is unsupported by any contemporary

165:

Oh yeah, and Andrew Homer- NaySay's comment that psychological astrology isn't a distinct tradition isn't an "incompetent" statement. It was a perfectly legitimate issue to bring up that is still very much open for discussion. She is right that the psychological camp doesn't really boast a

2545:

akin to Chinese in that each concept is discribed by a symbol or combination of symbols that are open to several or many meanings depending on context. The often-used example is the word "Crisis", which in Chinese is a symbol made up of of other symbols (the one for "problem" and the one for

2717:

there were prehistoric peoples living right through history until at least the 20thC, perhaps even still. Better brains than yours and mine, Jefffire, have already argued this point and come to the conclusion I stated and you challenged, that astrology can validly be called a proto-science.

2426:"The general public, who would come to this page for information on astrology," is what essentially matters. And to suggest that readers would have no concern over its scientific merits strikes me as odd in the extreme. It's just the sort of question a disinterested reader would first have. 1391:. I don't have any problem with that at all. Why would I? Its just that there is no evidence that the type of astrology that the Babylonians practiced, or Horoscopic astrology originated in India. Why are you so strangely agressive about making sure that the world thinks that it did? -- 1660:

Like all those astrological references in Shakespeare and the Bible? Is censoring the truth what makes your day? Is it your psuedo-Christian upbringing why you stick your nose where it doesn't belong? Read Dante, then express a relevant opinion. It's what an educated person would do.

265:

Right. It's an application of existing astrological techniques to modern social theory. But so was the Arabic "Part of Turnips." Astrologers have always applied their existing techniques to the problems they had at hand. I can come up with six very different approaches for vocational

3497:

doing evil and therefore it is good not to be a scientist", followed by a pejorative statement about the kind of person this makes me. This quote does not reflect what I actually think at all, though in this limited context I evidently inadvertently left you with that impression. What I

3502:(including some astrologers I could name). However, the power of those few scientists to harm the world and its people far outweighs their small proportion in the scientific community. I'm hardly likely to be anti-science when my own father was a scientist/technologist. One of my sons, 3899:

MayoPaul, I resent you calling me hysterical and that you continue to draw out the age difference as important. If you say you are not "down on Westerners", thats good - your comments on how we might all be corrupted to the point of loosing out PSI abilities got me a bit confused...

1237:

To cite an example, one may find astrologers generally engaged in predictive astrology; venturing to render guidance in electional branch, but when he would be asked as to how many books he has read on the subject or rather he possesses in his library; the answer shall be obvious.

3430:

About protoscience, then that is what astrology/astronomy was once, then they became a science and a pseudoscience. That does not mean claiming it never was a proto-science, but claiming it still is really makes no sense. And this has absolutely nothing to do with prehistory, BTW.

1889:

This contains two seemingly contradictary statements - and the second statement, that some are derived from the attributes of the Roman gods is correct. The planets are named after the gods, not vice versa, and the descriptions are characteristics of those gods, not the planets.

3519:

Right, explanation heard loud and clear. Your comment just sounded to me like other new age involved people who rail against any and all established source of knowledge - glad you are not one of them and thanks for responding in such a civil manner instead of turning this ugly.

3387:

Now you are having a laugh, Jefffire. Why would I indulge your silly fantasies? You plague me for something concrete to test, then back off into excuses as soon as I do. You and I know perfectly well that you are a true believer - of debunking. Astrologers class debunking as a

1935:

SOURCE: Christopher McIntosh, The Astrologers and their Creed, London 1969; Jim Tester, A History of Western Astrology, Suffolk/Rochester 1987; Anthony Grafton, Cardano’s Cosmos, Cambridge MA/London 1999; Kocku von Stuckrad, Das Ringen um die Astrologie, Berlin/New York 2000.

143:

following the works of the like of Freud and Jung. See Harry F. Darling, Dane Rudyhar, and popular periodicals (National Astrology magazine, Horoscope magazine, American Astrology magazine) which started in the 1930's with their strong slant toward psychological analysis.

1340:

I support Chris Brennan above. This is too specialised for this much space in the main Astrology article. Move it to the article on Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet and at most a one line reference here or a bit more in history of astrology. Also please keep discussion civil see

582:

dictates, on those putting forth the hypothesis that astrology has merit? One wouldn't waste a career disproving the theory that the Earth rests on the back of a turtle unless someone else has come forward with falsifiable information that such a turtle actually exists.

2467:

Ontology, Theology, Phenomenology, Pneumatology, Etymology (before 19th century), Cosmology (theory not scientific method), Doxology, Patrology, Numerology, some Sociology, some Psychology, Scientology, some Ecology. Sorry to be a wise-ass, but you said 'only pursuit'.

1281:

Less important Astrologers: Jefferson Anderson, Geoffrey Cornelius, Gary Duncan, Richard Idemon, Donald Lockwood, Mantreswara, Grace Morris, Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, Parasara, Marc Penfield, Martin Schulman, V K Shridhar, Basil Vaerlen, Varahamihira, Mary Vohryzek==

2485:

OK remove the word only and replace with "one of the few " . I have a reference book which lists over 500 scientific pursuits ending in 'ology. It is misleading to the public and some astrologers encourage this confusion. It needs early qualification in the article.

362:

some modern techniques. I think the point about technique is also valid; whatever people think is reasonable is ok with me. Also I didn't know about this European movement for a "new" Hamburg School, so chalk that up to ignorance and put it back in. Maybe a note?

2339:

How about: "There is no widely accepted evidence that astrology as a system has a falsifiable, scientific basis though individual astrological predictions may be subject to disproof. Where it has been tested, astrology has shown a consistent lack of predictive

3506:, is also doing very well to date in the same field, working for one of the world's top-50 companies in R&D. So please Lundse, once again I ask you not to read too much into things where the information is simply lacking and has not been shown either way. 1712:

order to accept thqat I criticize your views? Regarding books, then it was your who seemed to want to compare knowledge of literature, I merely said I was willing to do so - your critique of the inherent silliness of such things realy only relfect on yourself.

1682:

And what does "all those astrological references in Shakespeare and the Bible" have to do with the price of eggs? Oh, and if you want, we can compare "books read" or education levels to your hearts content, but please do not presume to know mine better than

952:

Thanks for the explanation, Mystylplx, I appreciate that and will try not to do it again. In return, I hope Jefffire will also leave off trolling me. A comment he left on my user page has raised my hopes that he is indeed now prepared to be more reasonable.

3304:

Man of few words, how about this idea: you do the research, write the results up in a learned journal, then it can be quoted? Otherwise, it sounds like a convenient excuse. I'm just trying to help here, but if my ideas are no use, there's nothing I can do.

1313:

Martin Goldsmith, Liz Greene, Robert Hand, Richard Idemon, Donald Lockwood, Bill Meridian, Michael Munkasey, Richard Nolles, Marc Penfield, Maritha Pottenger, Lois Rodden, Martin Schulman, Noel Tyl, Basil Vaerlen, Mary Vohryzek, & Karen Hamaker-Zondag.

1777:

Similarly about electional astrology - Western readers find difficult to digest that it originated during Vedic era - 5,000 years back. The treatises even now available on this subject are much more than all the books available in the world put together

2032:

in common with each other than either will with a randomly selected control. In a yet even more basic sense astrology predicts that astrologers will be able to glean useful information about individuals or groups of individuals from reading those natal

283:"Relocational Astrology" - This actually could maybe be legitimately argued to be a new branch of horoscopic astrology, but I still think that it is more of a modern technique or application instead of an entire new branch, but I'm open for discussion. 2575:

Astrology was a protoscience until the advent of astronomy. Nowadays it makes scientific claims of the nature that the state of the stars has a predictive power, but does not back this up with the scientific method. As of such it is a pseudoscience.

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MayoPaul, I suppose this is why so many consumer products are labeled "astrologically proven" rather than "scientifically proven." Those advertisers with all thier market research really know what they're doing when they cite astrology rather than

3962:. I propose we delete these. If someone wanted articles on these topic, I think one should be be bold and write them before creating a link to an article that doesn't exist. The midpoint link can be deleted because there is already a link to 2416:? Not astrologers, surely, who rarely are interested. Not the general public, who would come to this page for information on astrology. Furthermore, you're all avoiding the issue of Gauquelin's work. I don't know why we bother you so much. 2550:, and the increasing numbers of modern astrologers who practice this form tend to follow his lead. Others label it as an aspect of cosmology; as a technique of healing; or as a tool of sef-knowledge. Not an exhaustive list, but take your pick. 1670:

You will refrain from namecalling right now, and keep you edits off my user page (use the my talk page if you must). Otherwise, I will disregard any and all messages from you and making my edits consulting only those capable of having a proper

3616:

Annecdotal evidence is just that, annecdotal - there are many good reasons not to include them when building your worldview, I won't reiterate them here. Needless to say, they are also worthless when building an encyclopedia or a scientific

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not fit into the social norms of that group. It can sometimes be difficult to distinguish between a user who merely has different values, views, or ideas, and a user who is intentionally trolling". As I definitely had no such intention, and

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Buy a dictionary. "Historical" usually implies human events. "Mundane" means of the earth (natural events): ie, storms, diseases, droughts, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, locust hoards, tsunamis, earthquake storms, volcanic eruptions.

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The entire passage doesn't read properly, yet I feel that this is a part of the article that could be substantially expanded to include much more useful and very interesting material by someone with a knowledge of the history of astrology.

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page? Ok, I was too heavy, but the points are valid. Who cares if astrology's a superstition or otherwise? People LIKE it, that's what matters. It's fun; it's interesting; it's intriguing to those who actually study it with an open mind.

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Good points all. I can't speak for Storm Rider, but my read is he wasn't directing his "snake-oil" comment specifically at you, rather it was a question offering a possible general analogy regarding astrology as a whole. The fact is that

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Whoa! Calm down there Andy. Your profound grasp of this field and your exquisite way with words is overwhelming the rest of us who aren't as gifted, or as charming as you. Can you please bring it down just a notch for the rest of us?

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Report?? So I'm up in front of the headmaster now, am I? For having an opinion that differs from yours, I suppose. Useful refuge for people with no astrological arguments to present, though. I'm beginning to suspect that you don't know

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When astrology and astronomy were combined it was a proto-science. But when the science part (astronomy) split away from the superstition part, astrology became a pseudo-science while astronomy went on to become a full-fledged science.

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everything. It is the psychics et al. who claim that they know how to make things fly, read thoughts, predict stuff or guide people. They claim to know more than the skeptics, in fact - which is why the burden of proof is on them.

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You've got to be right about tv, Lundse, for sure. Re Matthew, the briefest search will show you that Matthew Manning (I said his full name in a comment I later shortened, after it had been read) was the subject of reports from:

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I do agree that the published forecasts of people calling themselves astrologers are usually wrong (i.e. this category includes a percentage of people who have no astrological training or experience, and therefore are frauds).

3468:"The study adds to the growing body of evidence that there is no scientific basis for star signs, such as Aries, Taurus and so on. These signs are based on the place of the sun in relation to the date of birth of the subject. 1876:

I don't understand why the English language is mentioned. The reference seems to be meaningless, and there doesn't seem to be any sense in including it, as it has nothing to do with astrology. I suggest it should be removed.

2829:'predicting,' and in each case the predictions can be tested for accuracy. If such predictions could be shown to be accurate then astrology would be a science and not a pseudo-science... that's the difference--science demands 1219:), Remedial astrology etc. etc. But none of the exponents blessed us with treatises on more than one subject. The only except is the great Acharya Varaha Mihir – who gifted us excellent treatises on the three said branches. 3651:

understanding. I was addressing Mystylplx by name - a debunker. These are the ones lacking that humility in my opinion, though of course I'm ready at any time to be shown that an individual debunker is different to the rest.

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Regarding the other content of your "post", Dante has nothing to do with whether the liberal arts "were based" or even commonly believed to correspond to planets. His work was, as so so succintly put it, literature and thus

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through and through, does it seem likely that I am totally down on all Westeners? You make far too many assumptions and unjustifiable extrapolations for my liking, Lundse - and your last comment sounded a bit hysterical.

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just the way things are - if you disagree with this fact, please show me wrong by showing me such a data set. Or make your own and make one million bucks, I guarantee you that will make a change in the astrology article!

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or pre-science, as there is ample evidence to back up this suggestion - if labels must be applied at all. Many astrologers are coming round to the suggestion made by Geoffrey Cornelius and others, that it is a system of

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I never heard of an astrologer making that precise claim Jefffire - perhaps you could tell me who it was? The majority of Western astrologers don't even consider the stars, let alone their "state", whatever that means.

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article where it is more appropriate. I agree the main astrology article should have a slight western bias since this is what the general reader will be expecting. But detail should be in the western astrology article.

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Done. The risk now is that someone will try and caveat the caveat ("However, astrologers would argue..."). This should be resisted, as these two sentences are basically the only critical comment in the entire article.

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Now a days we find that most of astrologers worldwide intend to show that they are specialist in different branches of astrology, & also guide the aspirants. The debate is whether their claims can have some basis.

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of economics. If we were to list this, then there are hundreds of other applications of astrology to subjects that we could list as well, but that would be silly. We are trying to be concise and to the point here.

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write that Dante (in line with thinking at the time) set the planets and arts to the same system, not that this was the view at the time. If someone can cite sources saying it was, please do so and revert my edit.

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Jefffire - have you got anything useful to say or are you just here to do pseudo-scientific rants - on an astrology page? (can't call it scientific, as you haven't showed us any logic, method or substance yet).

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Hey, if the experiment takes 20 or 30 years and you don't care to bother with it, that's too bad, but at least you know one very important thing about your life. You're not patient enough to be a scientist. See

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You'll have it your own way, of course, Jefffire, no matter what anyone says. It surprises me though, that you (a pseudo-scientist I can only assume, by how keen you are to promote its claims) so badly want to

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And the 'something hard to work on' stuff about prediction meaning prophesy is simply wrong - prediction can mean alot of things, not necesarrily to do with prophesy (I predict the sun will come up tomorrow).

1800:. Knowledge (XXG) is not a forum. Knowledge (XXG) is not based on "truth", it is based on verifiability. If you wish to contribute to a wiki based on "forum" and "truth" then this is the wrong place to do it. 3977:

the Supernatural Projection, the Police State article, and even my own Andrew Homer article have yet to prove your knowledge on anything other than knowing how to use a keyboard and knowing how to censor.

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When none on the Hindu exponents have dared to touch more than one subject of Hindu astrology, it is now thought possible by modern astrologers to claim specialization in more than one branch of astrology.

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Babylonians. Where is there room in this forum, on the Astrology page for some fresh information, new insights into the art of astrology? THere is none and many of you seems strangely protective of that.

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SURE its a gimmick, or NOT useful and extremely important to the study of astrology as a whole, that would be truly fascinating. I am curious if someone could read that offering and be so oblivious.

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such a thing as "love", and they like it a lot when they believe they have experienced it. However, I don't know of any "scientific" proof that love exists - and if there were any, like most people

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Those "character traits" of sun signs (and natal charts as a whole) are also predictions. The prediction that people born under a certain sign, or with such-and-such aspects in thier charts, will

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true for the specified group than for the population as a whole. In a more basic sense astrology predicts that people born at the same time and place (thus sharing the same natal chart) will have

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Knowledge (XXG) is a forum to divulge the true information , otherwise it would not withstand the test of time. Difficulty is that learneds in Hindu astrology are not contributing to this topic.

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electional astrology - as per Vedic / Hindu system of astrology. This is to cite an example. Vedic astrology has proven test of time, otherwise its treatises would have extinguished long back.

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Just seem to be a few flaws in this part of the article. I don't have much interest in the subject, so this is more from a syntactical perspective, I'll stay out the whole astrology debate.

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2) How the order of seven days of the week were decided has been logically explained in in Vedic astrology treatises. The logic explained therein was described by me. It is not my invention.

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To forecast is to predict, even if with inaccuracy. A prediction or a forecast is a scientific claim. This claim is not backed up with the scientific meathod, so the field is pseudoscience.

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There you go again Jefffire - rather than answer my question or refute my assertion, you do your little conjuring trick and change the subject. Not impressed, terribly disappointed in fact.

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It is not surprising that there are no comments / discussions on this topic for the last one month. Astrologers shun, rather fear to talk on this topic for the reasons best known to them.

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Vedic astrology has the richest literature covered in over 400,000 aphorisms, gifted by the Sages & Acharyas in the last over 5 millenniums. It has three main branches viz, astronomy (

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Does anyone else have a problem with me deleting this, can we find a source actually claiming that this view was in vogue back then or is it just based on a literary allegory from Dante?

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claim that the scientists are ignoring/supressing their work? So please explain how astrology is any different. All you have said above is that in your view astrology is non-falsifiable.

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The reason it is necessary to state clearly that Astrology is not a science is because it is the only pursuit which uses the suffix 'ology to describe itself, but which does not use the

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I am indeed an outsider (an astrologer in a community apparently dominated by debunkers) I think the accusation is mistakenly made, perhaps even disingenuous. If I am accused of laying

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nation's or global economic vitality. "Market analysis Astrology" has to do with particular categories of a nation's speculative markets, ie. gold or coffee or home developers.

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Who changed your post? I am getting really confused here, did someone edit your talk-page post or include other information in the article than what you wrote or what happened?

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other area of endeavour. So run away like a good boy. When you grow up, come back and talk and I'll introduce you to the delights, mysteries and sheer fascination of astrology.

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individual human beings based on those pretty colored charts then it is falsifiable. That's what it means.... Astrology makes testable predictions--astrology is falsifiable.

3423:. If their predictions/guesses/forecasts are constantly no better than chance, that means we have no reason to suspect there is anything to their method/science/art/whatever. 379:

C'mon, Andrew, we can disagree, can't we? I still feel that all the categories you mention are applications of modern astrological technique, treated later in the article.

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to be... whatever. Those are falsifiable predictions. The predictions astrology makes about personality are no less predictions than the ones they make about future events.

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Why is it so named? This seems to have been taken directly from the wikipedia page on 'flu, but the word's root needs to be properly explained if the example is to be used.

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I haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about. If you want to make edits they have to be verified from reliable sources. "Test of time" is not a reliable source.

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Astrologers are often not very good at being limited to anything Jefffire, but if you talk some astrology I think you'll find my response will be entirely astrological.

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I did not mean to say that they were right or wrong in any objective sense, but that the associations attributed to Dante in the article differ from those found here:

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Oh, it's not my career either, though I have picked up pocket change from time to time. There are lots of bad astrologers, but there are lots of bad "scientists" too.

653:. Our personal experience of love is all that matters to us. Similarly with astrology, there is (and probably can be) no "scientific proof" that it works, but there 325:"Chart rectification" isn't a branch or a tradition. It is just something that is done with natal charts, so it is a technique or an application of natal astrology. 3967:

link should go. I don't know what the environmental link is about, but I think it's fair to apply the same "no ticket, no wash" criterion to it. Any comments?

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article for a very very brief sampling. It doesn't matter whether you call it "forecasting," "predicting" or even "prophesy" it all amounts to the same thing...

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Don't bother to be precise in your terms, then, Jefffire; it will help you debunk the subject so much more easily. The point is that this is a field that does

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The predictions astrology makes may not ever be as simple as "a rock will never fall up." But they are testable nonetheless. Astrology makes predictions about

240:"Weather astrology" - This is explicitly addressed with the entry of "Meteorological astrology" which "uses methods in the attempt to predict the weather." 3484:

it is better to encourage people to find truth. Now if we can agree on how to do so, let us put that into a bottle and we will accomplish great things.

536:

This Dawkins article that you cite is just him railing on about "sun sign astrology". Although I'm not necessarily agreeing with Doovinator, the type of

286:"Historical analysis astrology" and "Mundane astrology" are the same thing, and they are listed , oddly, under Mundane astrology in the Branches section. 1853:

How the same is being copied & followed by Western astrologers with distortion , is not understood. They may explain the source of the information.

3907:

Your idea of some cabal of skeptics driving people of and your claims that astrologers are gentler and better people here on WP is simply wrong. Go to

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We all understand limitations of knowledge in any field, but that does not authorize one to claim master of different fields, especially in astrology.

3837:"insufficiently rigorous trials"??? So Jefffire can design and conduct those trials better that those Nobel prizewinners? Sheer arrogance, I suspect. 1498:

Hey, I was just trying to put it back to the original heading because he's only trying to be a jerk to this lady. But thats fine, I'll leave it. --

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Additioanlly astrology can be used to help understand a person, each persons astrology chart helps to explain who they are and why they are that way.

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And the other claim about the liberal education being "based on" astrology is completely bonkers, unless someone cites this soon I am removing it.

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When you say, "I know what you meant Jeffire - I'm just winding you up - it's too easy." that's pretty much an out and out admission to trolling.

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No, Jefffire, you're right - and therefore you can comment freely on my points rather than just being airily dismissive? This is, after all, the

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rare occasions when they get it right because deep down they know it's BS. Many many experiments have shown that right around 95% of people will

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wrong most of the time. That's why meteorology is a science and astrology is a pseudo-science. Meteorology makes testible predictions and fares

1226:& study in their last births also. It is impossible for human being to learn & master one branch of this futurity science in one birth. 724:

Blech. The fact is the overwhelming majority of people believe in science because it demonstrably works. A small minority believe in astrology.

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in perticular branch of astrology, rather be quack in all the branches - a feet which was never claimed by any astrologer in the past history.

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Now I know you don't read a word I write - I suspected it before. I don't recommend anyone to believe in astrology, so why would I ask you to?

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arguments this page is supposed to be about - and leave science to the more than adequate provision of science pages? Then we can be friends.

3959: 3911:, a bunch of them (especially in the history) are wikipedians who added themselves - I am sure you can drum up some support there. Or go to 3543:

of salesmanship in what I do. I'm sure we all make assumptions from time to time, but it is something best avoided where possible, I think.

1873:"Astrology has had a profound influence over the past few thousand years on Western and Eastern cultures, along with the English language." 1797: 3471:

The researchers, however, leave open the question as to whether other, more detailed and personal forms of astrology hold any validity."

516:' comment (he's a "scientist"): "Astrology is an aesthetic affront. It cheapens astronomy, like using Beethoven for commercial jingles." 1679:

conform to views held back then - he hardly in himself proves that this belief was normal or even existed outside his mind and/or work.

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Thank you for just demonstrating why we shound't have a long list, unless you have a suggested procedure to decide which ones stay in.

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I very much agree with most of what you have stated, and I'm glad you brought it up. The problem may be that previous edits have said

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But what has any of this to do with astrology? Why should we care whether scientists are satisfied that there is enough mention of

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I know. I've been meaning to get to it for some time now. I never finished reworking the second half of the astrology article. --

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better than chance when those predictions are tested. Astrology makes testible predictions (or "forecasts" if you prefer) and does

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Please note that we did not censor away your page, nor astrology - the vote page and the discussion is filled with comments about

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Report to our readers I mean, don't be so paranoid. Do you have a useful suggestion for the article or are you just here to rant?

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points I try to make has little to do with astrology itself but with a view on science and astrologys place in such worldviews.

1725: 1195:(dealing with mundane, meteorology, omens & portents, constructional matters, electional astrology etc.) & Predictive ( 1039:

Back to business then. Please provide some information on astrology, but don't expect us to accept this belief without proof.

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Sorry, but that's just silly. "Forecast" and "predict" are synonyms. Either of your examples could be called 'forecasting'

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Ah! Thanks for that Mystylplx, I didn't realise that is how you guys think, so it's a good job you repeated it yet again.

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That's quite simply because sun-sign columns have almost nothing to do with astrology, of course. Surely you know that?

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Chris's suggestion makes sense, especially given that many of these forms of astrology are hard to see as notable per se.

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Comment on the section title. Guys, do we really need a revert war over the title of a section on the talk page? I think

1880:"Influenza was so named because doctors once believed it to be caused by unfavorable planetary and stellar influences." 1222:

Some of the exponents have opined that they have learnt this subject not only in this birth but is the outcome of their

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Having said that I'll add that this is just discussion and I still think the current wording is perfectly acceptable.

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the way, the top guy on the history of astrology is probably Dr Nick Campion - perhaps his input could be solicited?

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Paranormal for a bit of a description as to the nature of some of these consistent, across the board investigations.

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3) 24 divisions of daytime - has also been found reference & effective usage in Hindu Electional astrology.

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characters I have sought out, and I have yet to see anything remotely convincing (actually the people talking

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world, it makes me skeptic with regards to extraordinary claims (which require extraordinary evidence, IMHO).

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And most of those 500+ tests were conducted by supporters of astrology who were trying to prove its validity.

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included them. Take your paranoia down a couple of notches, mister. You're not doing yourself any favors.

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You're a debunker. Debunkers don't believe in ANYTHING. Prove what you DO know and stay on those topics.

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Substitute stars for planets or whatever. The point is that this is a field that makes a scientific claim.

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about astrology, Jeffire. If so, you don't belong on this page. If I'm wrong, let's hear your first one...

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experiments have shown that 90+ percent of people will rate an astrological reading as accurate or better

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You're welcome. Some people just need to hear things over and over before they get it. It's no problem...

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era - the book titled " Vasist Samhita". The book in Sanskrit language is still available & referred.

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I know what you meant Jeffire - I'm just winding you up - it's too easy. That's exactly what I was asking

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Ah! You got me there man! My little joke fell as flat as a pancake in the face of your perceptive irony!

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then according to the current scientific standing, there is probably more truth in the comic strips."

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Dante's associations do not appear to be correct, according to this link. Here are my suggestions.

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This is a definition that might fit well in the article, especially in the beginning; it's from the

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If any or all of those predictions are proven to be innaccurate then astrology has been falsified.

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You're a pretentious debunker who obsessively pretends that you know what you're talking about.

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Some people are going to have a hard time with the second sentence, but its broadly supportable.

1764: 1499: 1424: 1392: 1364: 1296: 604:. It takes as long as it takes, that's how the scientific method works. Sorry about your career. 545: 416: 409: 341: 309: 181: 167: 109: 3573:. This is why modern medicines are always tested against placebo to be sure their effectiveness 1485: 424:

I'm personally fine with it Chris - but I doubt if anyone would mind at all if you changed it.

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come and criticise harmless things like astrology (which has never killed or maimed anybody).

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Uh, paranoia? I was simply observing that See Alsos shouldn't function as categories do.

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Categories exist for this exact reason. The See Also here should be radically shortened.

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from India. Readers are not agreeing with Chris Brennam on this issue - refer main talk.

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it with a new one. I will start this off with my submission. What do you guys think?

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Knowledge (XXG) is not a soapbox Paul. Please limit yourself to discussing the article.

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Huge generalisation there Mystylplx, not to mention anthropomorphism: ("science demands

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High horse??? Pot calls the kettle black! How often do you have to be told Jefffire? I

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1) Electional astroloy book is available which was written about 5700 BCE during the

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I came across a statement posted in the introduction to project Hindsite. It read:

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something like telepathy does a better job dissuading me than their detractors).

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You'll find a lengthy list of books, articles and web-sites debunking it there.

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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regardless of whether the reading is based on their own chart or someone elses.

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regardless of whether the reading is based on their own chart or someone elses.

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all Astrologers, Western and Vedic alike. So lets see what happens to edit...

1317: 1299: 1199:) astrology. The predictive astrology has various branches such as Horoscopy ( 1171: 1160: 1145: 1134: 1118: 1093: 1068: 1043: 1018: 957: 929: 920: 903: 882: 856: 839: 821: 804: 786: 773: 755: 741: 728: 715: 694: 676: 666: 634: 621: 608: 586: 566: 548: 527: 503: 489: 468: 453: 442: 428: 419: 383: 344: 312: 301: 270: 259: 226: 216: 201: 184: 170: 147: 137: 127: 112: 2326:

Yes, that sums it up. I missed your comment before posted my response above.

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Anecdotal evidence and insufficiently rigorous trials are worthless here.

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call "stubborness" to a greater extent than a random control group would.

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Dantes associations do not appear to be correct, according to this link.

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have never met them. I've got an idea: how about actually discussing the

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Get off your high horse. This is a superstition until proven otherwise.

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made by astrology just since the 1950's. It fails every time. See the

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of people and for those predictions to be valid they at least must be

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I used the third not the first person you might have noticed. Cheers,

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Yes indeed. Please be sure you show it to me. Greatly interested.

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It's been done over and over. There have been over 500 tests of the

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Yeh, sure. You'll believe what you want to, same as everyone else.

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64.*, can you kindly explain how it is not a superstition? Thanks.

1572:

Please don't edit/change other peoples posts. Originally I wrote:

1211:) astrology, Female (Streejaataki) horoscopy, Recconstructional ( 403: 3534:

not liken me in this manner to them (with a reminder about using

160:

therefore perhaps list Uranian as a subset of the Hamburg School.

4035:

Not you, Marskell. StarHeart above. Apologies for confusion.

1753:

This section is a dogs breakfast and needs a cleanup sometime.

25: 2007:

gravity works we can make lots of testable obserations about

751:

make then do so, but rants like yours above are not helpful.

118:

I have included some of the material you have removed in the

3081:

fare better than chance when those predictions are tested.

1260:

I invite astrologers to have frank discussion on this topic

1383:

Certain forms of astrology did come from India, like the

1943:-- see the 'Glossary' at the bottom right of this page. 3960:

Environmental cosmology (astrology and social sciences)

2833:

predictions, astrology just makes a lot of excuses....

1635: 3724:

evil Westerner". You are putting words in my mouth.

2011:

it works and those observations are all falsifiable.

3785:

Mind Science Foundation in San Antonio, Texas, USA,

1637:Anyways, it's not relevant to the article anymore. 813:Perhaps you don't care, but our readers do. And we 1545:Jupiter may be compared to Business & Politics 1856:If someone more details , same can be furnished. 1837:Following points are put as factual information: 3915:, most seem to be believers in almost anything. 1557:Pluto may be compared to manipulating the masses 1207:) astrology, Annual (Tajik) horoscopy, Horary ( 2289:we would have a far more definitive statement. 1452:Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet's Applied Cosmology 2541:. Still others insist that it is primarily a 1918:(a university that offers a M.A. program in " 1242:book on electional astrology in his library. 1089:Do you have any suggestions for the article? 8: 512:Doov, you're musical analogy reminded me of 3435:head instead of digging irrigation canals. 1798:Knowledge (XXG):What Knowledge (XXG) is not 3478:These are quotes from an article found at 3504:with my maximum encouragement and support 1796:Wrong on so many levels. Take a look at 3173:an astrological reading to be accurate 2788:astrology (a pseudo-science, you say). 1539:the Sun may be compared to pop culture 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 1975:is or is not falsifiable rather than 1708:in your last post before I leave you. 1591:the Sun may be compared to Arithmetic 1585:Mercury may be compared to Dialectics 1533:Mercury may be compared to Dialectics 1012:something of substance astrologically 7: 1812:claim, but facts can not be denied. 1554:Neptune may be compared to Fine Arts 3791:London University, UK, for example. 2437:Gauquelin's work is covered in the 1726:Knowledge (XXG):No personal attacks 1600:Saturn may be compared to Astrology 1597:Jupiter may be compared to Geometry 1551:Uranus may be compared to Astrology 645:Most people are adamant that there 3788:University of California, USA, and 1749:Astrology and the days of the week 1548:Saturn may be compared to Research 1234:in more than one of its branches. 1130:Am I to take that as a 'no' then? 672:Knowledge (XXG) is not a soapbox. 24: 1941:http://www.amsterdamhermetica.nl/ 1634:StarHeart changed my post above. 1588:Venus may be compared to Rhetoric 1542:Mars may be compared to Athletics 981:in the context of this subheading 3945:Why do we have links to nowhere? 3452:once you have a valid data set. 3069:As for meteorologists, they are 1514:Seven Liberal Arts and Astrology 894: 29: 3464:characteristics of individuals. 1993:independantly of the horoscope. 1179:Need for specialist astrologers 1536:Venus may be compared to Music 103:Major revisions of the article 1: 3449:Get the million dollars here 1594:Mars may be compared to music 622:18:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC) 609:14:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC) 587:09:42, 28 February 2006 (UTC) 567:05:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC) 549:04:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC) 528:14:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC) 490:14:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC) 454:05:18, 27 February 2006 (UTC) 443:03:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC) 420:23:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC) 384:20:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC) 345:07:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC) 271:15:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC) 227:05:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC) 202:04:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC) 185:01:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC) 171:18:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC) 138:15:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC) 128:11:59, 18 February 2006 (UTC) 113:06:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC) 1607:Convivio, by Dante Alighieri 651:I wouldn't bother to read it 1916:Universiteit van Amsterdam 212:Chart Rectification, etc. 4058: 4040:16:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC) 4023:14:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC) 4006:14:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC) 3992:07:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC) 3982:02:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC) 3972:15:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC) 3913:the paranormal wikiproject 3690:11:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC) 3660:21:31, 29 April 2006 (UTC) 3630:18:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC) 3600:21:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC) 3582:17:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC) 3548:08:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC) 3525:10:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC) 3511:08:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC) 3491:16:07, 24 April 2006 (UTC) 3457:10:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC) 3444:10:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC) 3397:07:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC) 3351:20:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 3310:20:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 3268:20:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 3223:08:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC) 3128:07:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC) 3086:21:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2996:20:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2952:18:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2911:18:07, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2874:17:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2838:18:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2797:18:07, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2755:16:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2722:12:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2686:12:05, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2644:11:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2611:11:25, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2581:11:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2555:11:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 2511:15:57, 22 April 2006 (UTC) 2491:14:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC) 2473:22:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC) 2460:21:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC) 1951:10:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC) 1904:10:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC) 1642:19:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC) 1626:07:23, 21 April 2006 (UTC) 1616:21:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC) 1582:the Moon resembles Grammar 1503:09:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC) 1493:05:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC) 1477:20:48, 18 March 2006 (UTC) 1445:20:50, 18 March 2006 (UTC) 1428:00:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC) 1410:22:48, 17 March 2006 (UTC) 1396:22:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC) 1368:22:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC) 1354:10:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC) 1318:08:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC) 1172:12:19, 21 April 2006 (UTC) 1161:19:07, 20 April 2006 (UTC) 1146:17:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC) 1135:16:48, 20 April 2006 (UTC) 1119:16:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC) 1094:16:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC) 1069:16:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC) 1044:12:32, 20 April 2006 (UTC) 1019:09:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC) 958:17:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC) 930:16:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC) 921:16:01, 19 April 2006 (UTC) 904:09:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC) 883:20:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 857:20:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 840:20:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 822:19:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 805:19:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 787:19:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 774:19:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 756:09:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 742:19:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 729:15:21, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 716:19:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 695:11:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC) 677:09:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC) 667:09:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC) 504:19:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 469:19:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC) 429:11:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC) 302:08:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC) 260:08:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC) 217:08:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC) 148:08:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC) 3346:Care to provide funding? 3177:It just doesn't matter... 2446:14:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC) 2431:14:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC) 2421:13:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC) 2399:10:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 2381:10:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 2372:09:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 2363:07:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 2350:06:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 2331:18:20, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 2319:06:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 2306:01:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 2280:01:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 2269:00:48, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 2259:14:24, 7 April 2006 (UTC) 2235:05:30, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 2197:15:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC) 2163:14:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC) 2130:13:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC) 2104:03:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC) 2065:18:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC) 2047:21:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC) 1984:20:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC) 1966:17:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC) 1910:Incorporate this info...? 1768:18:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC) 1758:11:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC) 1744:10:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC) 1733:09:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC) 1702:07:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC) 1691:06:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC) 1665:05:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC) 1655:16:55, 2 April 2006 (UTC) 1565:05:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC) 1523:05:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC) 1343:Knowledge (XXG):Etiquette 1300:01:07, 5 March 2006 (UTC) 635:02:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC) 313:08:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC) 2506:what it comes down to). 1866:Effects on world culture 1831:08:47, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 1530:the Moon regards Writing 1488:may be highly relevant. 1347:Knowledge (XXG):Civility 477:Are you aware that many 3940:07:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC) 3930:07:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC) 3920:07:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC) 3894:17:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC) 3884:15:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC) 3864:15:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC) 3842:17:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC) 3832:15:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC) 3810:15:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC) 3775:06:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC) 3729:19:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC) 1977:astrological statements 1805:10:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC) 1720:or anywere (please see 3539:theirs done. There is 1603: 1270:, 4, April 2006 (UTC) 1252:, 2, March 2006 (UTC) 1006:the comment. It is so 412: 3541:no element whatsoever 3034:Validity of astrology 2439:Validity of astrology 1862:, 19 May, 2006 (UTC) 1822:, 10 May, 2006 (UTC) 1574: 602:pitch drop experiment 407: 42:of past discussions. 3956:Midpoint (astrology) 1792:, 9 May, 2006 (UTC) 1290:23:44, 4 March 2006 3909:list of astrologers 3577:that of a placebo. 3565:This is called the 1153:wanting to be shown 899:He's just trolling 3800:Correction: I did 1924:Western Esotercism 413: 410:Flammarion Woodcut 3964:Uranian astrology 2527:Agreed also, but 2453:scientific method 2412:in an article on 538:strawman argument 340:Anything else? -- 120:western astrology 100: 99: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4049: 2003:knowing exactly 1389:Horary astrology 1217:Graha- Samudriki 898: 464:general public. 78: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4057: 4056: 4052: 4051: 4050: 4048: 4047: 4046: 3947: 2543:poetic language 1958: 1912: 1868: 1751: 1516: 1276: 1203:), Electional ( 1182: 514:Richard Dawkins 436: 398: 105: 74: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4055: 4053: 4045: 4044: 4043: 4042: 4030: 4029: 4028: 4027: 4026: 4025: 4011: 4010: 4009: 4008: 3995: 3994: 3952:Harmonic chart 3946: 3943: 3897: 3896: 3877: 3876: 3875: 3874: 3873: 3872: 3871: 3870: 3869: 3868: 3867: 3866: 3845: 3844: 3825: 3824: 3823: 3822: 3821: 3820: 3819: 3818: 3817: 3816: 3815: 3814: 3813: 3812: 3798: 3794: 3793: 3792: 3789: 3786: 3779: 3778: 3777: 3767: 3744: 3743: 3742: 3741: 3740: 3739: 3738: 3737: 3736: 3735: 3734: 3733: 3732: 3731: 3703: 3702: 3701: 3700: 3699: 3698: 3697: 3696: 3695: 3694: 3693: 3692: 3671: 3670: 3669: 3668: 3667: 3666: 3665: 3664: 3663: 3662: 3652: 3639: 3638: 3637: 3636: 3635: 3634: 3633: 3632: 3622: 3618: 3607: 3606: 3605: 3604: 3603: 3602: 3587: 3586: 3585: 3584: 3571:placebo effect 3551: 3550: 3530: 3529: 3528: 3527: 3514: 3513: 3466: 3465: 3460: 3459: 3416: 3415: 3414: 3413: 3412: 3411: 3410: 3409: 3408: 3407: 3406: 3405: 3404: 3403: 3402: 3401: 3400: 3399: 3389: 3368: 3367: 3366: 3365: 3364: 3363: 3362: 3361: 3360: 3359: 3358: 3357: 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1825: 1824: 1823: 1821: 1817: 1813: 1806: 1803: 1799: 1795: 1794: 1793: 1791: 1786: 1783: 1779: 1775: 1769: 1766: 1765:Chris Brennan 1762: 1761: 1760: 1759: 1756: 1748: 1746: 1745: 1742: 1734: 1731: 1727: 1723: 1718: 1714: 1710: 1706: 1705: 1704: 1703: 1700: 1692: 1689: 1685: 1681: 1678: 1673: 1669: 1668: 1667: 1666: 1663: 1657: 1656: 1653: 1643: 1640: 1636: 1633: 1632: 1631: 1630: 1627: 1624: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1617: 1614: 1610: 1608: 1599: 1596: 1593: 1590: 1587: 1584: 1581: 1580: 1579: 1578: 1573: 1570: 1567: 1566: 1563: 1556: 1553: 1550: 1547: 1544: 1541: 1538: 1535: 1532: 1529: 1528: 1527: 1526: 1524: 1521: 1513: 1511: 1504: 1501: 1500:Chris Brennan 1497: 1496: 1495: 1494: 1491: 1487: 1478: 1475: 1470: 1469: 1468: 1467: 1466: 1459: 1458: 1457: 1453: 1446: 1443: 1439: 1438: 1437: 1436: 1429: 1426: 1425:Chris Brennan 1421: 1420: 1419: 1418: 1417: 1416: 1411: 1408: 1403: 1402: 1401: 1400: 1397: 1394: 1393:Chris Brennan 1390: 1386: 1382: 1381: 1380: 1379: 1369: 1366: 1365:Chris Brennan 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2538: 2533: 2528: 2450: 2413: 2409: 2407: 2376:Fine by me. 2312: 2262: 2253: 2155: 2029: 2025: 2021: 2008: 2004: 1976: 1972: 1959: 1945: 1938: 1934: 1929: 1928: 1913: 1892: 1888: 1885: 1882: 1879: 1875: 1872: 1869: 1858: 1855: 1852: 1849: 1846: 1839: 1836: 1818: 1814: 1809: 1787: 1784: 1780: 1776: 1772: 1752: 1737: 1695: 1676: 1658: 1648: 1611: 1604: 1575: 1571: 1568: 1560: 1517: 1507: 1483: 1463: 1454: 1451: 1405:Dorotheus. 1374: 1335: 1328: 1321: 1311: 1304: 1284: 1280: 1277: 1265: 1261: 1259: 1255: 1254: 1247: 1244: 1240: 1236: 1232: 1228: 1223: 1221: 1216: 1212: 1208: 1204: 1200: 1196: 1192: 1189: 1187: 1183: 1178: 1152: 1150: 1129: 1011: 1007: 984: 980: 893: 874: 832: 814: 796: 767:astrological 766: 686: 659: 654: 650: 646: 643:...proof...? 642: 641: 437: 434:Superstition 423: 414: 399: 295: 253: 210: 141: 132: 106: 75: 43: 37: 3625:get on tv. 3486:Storm Rider 2301:Storm Rider 1722:WP:Civility 1671:discussion. 1190:Siddhanta), 36:This is an 2539:divination 1946:THANKS -- 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