1052:. The two terms in common useage appear to be "ball boy" and "ball girl" and I've never heard a term that covers both of them, certainly not "ballkid". From memory the BBC at Wimbledon refers to them as "ball boys and girls". Therefore I think the only viable options are "ball boy" or "ball girl" either of which may cause problems because of choosing a sex, however as they are the only two terms in common use we have to choose one. The chairman article seems a good precedent that we will use a so called 'sexist' term when common usage does. Given that ball boys (and so the term) have been around long and that I'm fairly sure I've heard "ball boys" used to refer to both sexes I think we have to go with "ball boys".
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which you'd expect there to be more of than for any other of the above articles as these would be double redirects and eventually changed . This compares to 1398 for all variations of ball boy, 345 for all variations of ballgirl and none for all variations of ballperson. This to me shows strong support for ballboy being the most common search term and taken with the above arguements about usage elsewhere reinforces my believe that the article should be at
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1467:. "Ball person" is not a term in common use, and I would prefer the article to remain at "Ball boy" rather than move it to this title. I disagree that the article advances a point of view and for a reader to get the impression the IP implies, they would have to stop reading the article before the third word or the first picture. --
1528:. "Ball person" is not the common name for this office. Moreover, "Ball boy" probably is. Certainly the terms "ball boy" and "ball girl" combined represent the terminology used nearly all of the time. If there's support for moving this article to a gender-inclusive title, it should be something actually in common use.
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but using 'ball boys and ball girls' (interestingly the file name is simply ballboy) isn't very encylopedic and contrary to normal wikipedia practice. The problem is then what to use instead. Ball boy (or indeed ball girl) could be considered sexist (a view that I personally disagree with) while
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A gender-neutral alternative would be preferable but we don't have one because no-one uses them. This is precisely why we can't name the article 'ballkid': someone has just made it up. If we name the article 'ball boy' or 'ball girl', I doubt anyone would really care in the great scheme of things.
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I'm not saying it's sexist per se, but I don't see the point from moving from a (possibly somewhat obscure) gender-neutral term to a contentious alternative, even if it is more common. I think "ball boy and ball girl" should be considered as an alternative move instead, since it is common in usage
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I'm fairly certain that using "and" in that way isn't acceptable, or at least I can't think of another circumstance where it has been used. That ballkid is somewhat obscure is why it isn't the best name for the page. If I recall correctly, the informal test is "what would the average person type
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has had a total of 2489 and even just removing those that are from the above redirects (I assume a redirect is effectively counted twice, once for the redirect page once for the page redirected to) reduces this to 861 so a total of 872 for all variations on ballkid and that's with internal links
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The article is headed with the OR banner and has been since 2009. It's not specified on this talk page or the article which specific statements are objected to. Personally, I'm conformable with the article as it stands - if no-one objects I'll take down the tag in a few days.
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427:, but in this case the word "ballkid" is so very rarely used, and even if it were "ball kid" (with a space) would seem more correct gramatically. I'll suggest "ball boy" at the moment, simply as across all sports there appear to be more ball boys than ball girls.
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I think "ball children" is probably used less than even "ball kid", though I agree that "ball kid" doesn't sound right. The key point is that the most common terms are "ball boy" and "ball girl" and unfortunately we can't use both in the title.
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The exact number of hits isn't static and will depend when and from where you search from, but the orders of magnitude should stay approximately the same. "Ballboy" (with no space) is probably elevated due to the band of the same name.
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Indeed, the
Wimbledon site states it only introduced ball girls as late as 1977. Ball boys probably existed a fair time before ball girls, which lends support to the idea of the original definitive term being 'ball boy'.
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Moving just seems a regressive thing to do. I've had a quick online, and apart from one forum I can't see any descriptions of the term "ballboy" as sexist. But calling this article "ball boy" and starting the intro with
402:. Strong evidence that "boy" is common-use term (overwhelming vs any gender-neutral form) as well as the formal term used by several major sports organizations. Space-separated also wins by authoritative source.
1445:. It does not accuratly reflect the content of the article: the first message that a reader may get when seeing this article is that this is a job only for boys, or that girls are a rare exception in this job.
1566:, "The title indicates what the article is about.." I think it would be a positive thing if we recognised that some of these "boys" are girls. As per BBC and as per Knowledge (XXG) being no place for
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who is only organization I know of published training manual, "Ball persons: A Training Manual" by
Barbara Hultgren and Larry Parker, illustrations by Albert S. Rendes in 1999. Can be found on
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I've heard the term used at
Wimbledon and can't remember "boy boy" and "ball girl". I wasn't giving a huge amount of attention but am wondering if another move proposal might be in order.
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You can't really get fairer than this. While the most-common-term principle may be one of the rules on
Knowledge (XXG), surely it doesn't override all other considerations. Besides,
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The above is a genuine reason for moving the article from 'ballkid', whereas the percieved sexism of 'ball boy' is purely hypothetical. You can't oppose it on the grounds that someone
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Except I can't even find ball kid/ballkid/ball person/ballperson in any dictionary. Isn't there a guideline somewhere about not artificially constructing gender-neutral terms?
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No one is denying that there are ball girls. There are several other
Knowledge (XXG) conventions that would favor using the commonly used name. It's why have an article
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758:: Agree with other comments in support. If I may add 'ball kids' just sounds crass. Maybe it could be "ball children" if it can't be "ballboy" (example of this usage
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is a better title. If this was changed to ball boy, it would only cause non-stop posts about sexism etc. There is nothing technical to gain from the move either.
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the proposal and oppose the other suggested combinations of "ball boy(s) and/or (ball) girl(s)". Keep it simple and let the redirects take care of the rest. —
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Ho Hum, I just came to the page to see the state of play of any ball kid discussion. All the same I did a little research in google searches for the last year.
806:, and avoid a formulation that could be viewed as sexist. Suggest "Ball-boys and ball-girls" (without or without dash and plural) as an alternative name.
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Using the online version, "ballboy" and "ballgirl" list the two above as suggestions. "Ball kid" and "ballkid" are not present. I don't have access to
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860:, in my mind, this RM should not be (or made to be) about gender, but about usage. Just make sure the lead is written as I suggested above. As
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I can't find any documented evidence that "ball boy" is considered sexist, which is perhaps why there isn't wide usage of a gender-neutral term.
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I know squat about baseball, and the article is no help. Are there actually any batgirls? I can't believe I'm asking this question to be honest.
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It's one thing if a potentially gender neutral term is commonly in use (Firefighter, Bellhop) but that does not appear to be the case here.--
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No - not a term I have ever heard before, unless it is US usage. It is certainly not used in
Britain and most definitely not at Wimbledon.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Definition: a female attendant who retrieves balls for players or officials (as in a tennis match or a baseball or basketball game)
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Definition: a male attendant who retrieves balls for players or officials (as in a tennis match or a baseball or basketball game)
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does not seem have a consistent terminology, using a combination of "ball boy", "ball girl", and less commonly "ball person".
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1570:. I have frequently heard the term used at Wimbledon almost as an official term where "ball boy" seemed to colloquial.
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agree with Luke that this article doesn't advance a point of view. "Ball boy" is the common name by far. Furthermore, the
1410:– "Ball person" better reflects the content of the article and avoids policy violations (more explanations given below)
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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just gave me zero hits. Without the quotes, I got 171 hits, including current and reliable-sounding materials such as
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Ballkid? Is that a real term that is actual use? Isnt the more common term ballboy/ballgirl?
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and not chair or chairperson. Choosing the term for one gender isn't automatically sexist.
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Note, I would propose moving the current "Ballboy" page to "Ball boy (disambiguation)"
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and yes I know these are plurals. As mentioned
Knowledge (XXG) being no place for
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would be problem. Not too sure what you mean by "official job title" either. The
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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685:: Watched Wimbledon and never heard ballkid. Knowledge (XXG) has the article
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1675:. We say "ball boy" or "ball girl", but we do not say "ball person". --
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Help with the creation of yearly main articles and drawsheets for every
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Some article views stats for all the articles that redirect here (from
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so I can't comment on
British English or other national variations.
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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Use of "ball boy" in the title violates many policies, including
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seems to use "ball boy" to collectively refer to both sexes on
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Yes. Also, they are more common in softball than batboys.
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article to mention softball. I'll do so if I have time.
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Just not 'ballkid'. This term doesn't really exist. --
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Find out what the official job title is and use that.
1652:"Ball boys and girls" OR "Ball boys and ball girls".
1650:. The earlier link attests to this use. See also:
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Yes, of course there are ball-girls. See an article
1368:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1108:Maybe I've missed something, but I can't see where
1756:. No further edits should be made to this section.
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1625:" (or something similar) as was suggested above?
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1613:If you are opposed to moving the article to "
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731:As an aside, someone should update the
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1436:For uses of ball person see this:
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622:It is hardly a made up term.
111:and see a list of open tasks.
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1587:Googling for
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939:. Do they? --
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276:Tennis people
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253:Start article
250:
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238:Justine Henin
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226:Roger Federer
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90:Tennis portal
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1822:— Preceding
1819:
1811:
1793:— Preceding
1789:USTA website
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1696:, with both
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1505:title policy
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868:not batkid.
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764:Hakluyt bean
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234:Rafael Nadal
230:Leander Paes
218:
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138:
102:
96:
40:WikiProjects
1754:move review
1706:Egsan Bacon
1615:Ball person
1482:WP:SINGULAR
1431:5 years ago
1427:ball person
1407:Ball person
1366:move review
1226:Ball person
858:YeshuaDavid
670:Jonathunder
592:Ball person
354:—Preceding
30:Start-class
1845:Categories
1677:Necrothesp
1463:- move to
1232:Ballperson
1208:Ball girls
705:MickMacNee
624:MickMacNee
596:MickMacNee
559:Date: 1926
553:Function:
539:Date: 1903
533:Function:
293:up to our
1728:AjaxSmack
1702:ball girl
1375:not moved
1250:Ball kids
1214:Ballgirls
1196:Ball girl
1178:Ball boys
1126:masculine
1124:which is
1118:this page
974:ball girl
854:Aubergine
841:Aubergine
779:Aubergine
649:ball girl
610:Aubergine
574:Aubergine
549:ball girl
475:1,140,000
467:1,590,000
461:1,980,000
433:Aubergine
397:Moved to
295:standards
1824:unsigned
1795:unsigned
1698:ball boy
1655:gregkaye
1572:Gregkaye
1469:LukeSurl
1425:Move to
1402:Ball boy
1339:LukeSurl
1319:Gregkaye
1266:Ball kid
1256:Ballkids
1244:Ball kid
1202:Ballgirl
1184:Ballboys
1166:Ball boy
970:ball boy
837:chairman
645:ball boy
529:ball boy
431:(done).
421:Ball boy
399:Ball boy
356:unsigned
348:Untitled
320:Open Era
289:Bring a
278:articles
220:Copyedit
1641:Suggest
1611:Comment
1562:as per
1560:Support
1513:Stickee
1443:WP:NPOV
1390:Calidum
1271:Ballboy
1172:Ballboy
1153:Comment
1134:US Open
756:Support
666:Support
641:Support
547:Entry:
527:Entry:
501:125,000
495:148,000
489:279,000
481:375,000
417:Ballkid
251:Grab a
206:Cleanup
172:history
154:Tennis
141:on the
1721:Oppose
1690:Oppose
1673:Oppose
1621:" or "
1596:DMacks
1543:Oppose
1526:Oppose
1517:(talk)
1501:Oppose
1486:DMacks
866:batboy
733:batboy
687:batboy
588:Oppose
509:89,000
452:Google
404:DMacks
308:member
272:Tennis
246:Expand
114:Tennis
104:tennis
59:Tennis
36:scale.
1564:WP:AT
1507:says
1275:Dpmuk
1216:: 169
1204:: 174
1174:: 881
1168:: 387
1138:Hippo
1096:Dpmuk
1054:Dpmuk
983:eshua
955:Hippo
933:could
929:might
915:Hippo
890:eshua
870:Hippo
813:eshua
737:Hippo
653:Hippo
302:Other
284:Stubs
265:Photo
182:purge
177:watch
156:To-do
1832:talk
1820:Aa
1803:talk
1710:talk
1700:and
1681:talk
1631:talk
1600:talk
1551:talk
1534:talk
1490:talk
1480:per
1451:talk
1416:talk
1323:talk
1279:talk
1258:: 10
1142:talk
1110:NPOV
1100:talk
1081:talk
1077:Smjg
1073:NPOV
1058:talk
1027:talk
1012:talk
996:Talk
988:avid
959:talk
945:talk
937:does
919:talk
903:Talk
895:avid
874:talk
845:talk
826:Talk
818:avid
800:here
783:talk
768:talk
762:).
760:here
741:talk
723:talk
709:talk
695:talk
674:talk
657:talk
651:."
628:talk
614:talk
600:talk
578:talk
555:noun
535:noun
437:talk
408:talk
364:talk
291:Stub
167:edit
1746:.
1388:--
1252:: 0
1246:: 1
1234:: 0
1228:: 0
1210:: 0
1198:: 2
1180:: 4
972:or
931:or
647:or
569:OED
274:or
133:Top
1847::
1834:)
1816:Aa
1712:)
1683:)
1633:)
1602:)
1553:)
1536:)
1511:.
1492:)
1484:.
1453:)
1418:)
1404:→
1377:.
1358:.
1325:)
1281:)
1273:.
1144:)
1102:)
1083:)
1060:)
1029:)
1021:--
1014:)
999:•
993:•
961:)
947:)
921:)
906:•
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876:)
847:)
829:•
823:•
785:)
770:)
743:)
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697:)
676:)
659:)
630:)
616:)
602:)
580:)
439:)
419:→
410:)
366:)
236:,
232:,
228:,
1830:(
1801:(
1708:(
1679:(
1662:♪
1660:✍
1629:(
1598:(
1579:♪
1577:✍
1549:(
1532:(
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1414:(
1383:)
1379:(
1321:(
1277:(
1140:(
1128:(
1098:(
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1010:(
985:D
981:Y
968:"
957:(
943:(
917:(
892:D
888:Y
872:(
856:/
843:(
815:D
811:Y
781:(
766:(
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693:(
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576:(
435:(
406:(
362:(
316:.
304::
297:.
287::
268::
259:.
249::
223::
209::
158::
145:.
42::
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