199:(9 May 2021): The Arbitration Committee advises that administrators may impose "reliable-source consensus required" as a discretionary sanction on all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. On articles where "reliable-source consensus required" is in effect, when a source that is not a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the
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should be rewritten in the format that was originally conceived: 1. Description of origin of the term. 2. The history of its usage from the moment of its creation to our time - both in the nationalist and propaganda sense. That is, to develop the article for what it was intended for. All off-topic questions should be left for other relevant articles. The old version
1019:) (Also brought here by bot): I also don't know much about this topic, but the current article seems like it would belong better either as part of the OUN or Bandera article and has significant NPOV problems. Even if it becomes about the modern and historical usage of the term, why would that not fit better in a general article about the Ukrainian far-right?
690:) on this one. Stand-alone articles do indeed need enough background information about the main player(s) to get oriented and understand the situation and origins of the article subject matter. A separate article about the subject is not hurt by that, and the current article is improved by the inclusion.
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that passage had two issues: one it said "they referred themselves as B during the
Holocaust and XYZ" - this was shoehorning in the Holocaust for buzzword sake, since the term obviously predated WW2 and continued on after to today. The rest of that passage (in footnotes?) starts rambling on about why
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are clearly a historical group, that are being referred to by the police in the
Ukraine. We need an article on the historical reference to Banderites to understand the modern usage. If anything, we could do a section within this article discussing *modern usage*, or if its worth it a separate article
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I had a reason to recommend that you read WP:SYNTH: Yes, Bandera collaborated with the Nazis, he had a fascist world view and his followers committed mass murder (whether this can be called genocide is not so sure). But your logic seems to be: Bandera committed genocide, so all people who admire him
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There was a discussion about this a couple years ago, but that doesn't seem to have reached a conclusive consensus, so I'm bringing it up again: I think the article's scope should be changed to be about the insult "banderite", with a section explaining the background of historical actual banderites.
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While most of the crimes attributed to OUN/UPA are true, this is a complex topic and the biggest challenge is the actual attribution of inspiration for these crimes to
Bandera himself. This article however is a completely ahistorical mess, a mix of low-quality sources with clearly visible bias and a
1403:
ESPECIALLY since the claim by Putin that "most of the 1.5 million Jewish victims killed during the
Holocaust in Ukraine were murdered by the Banderites", figures need to be offered, analysed, and compared. Staying silent and vague is NOT an acceptable option. "Due weight" of this or that particular
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You twice added a qualification to
Bandera, once "far-right", and then "ultranationalist". You explained neither of your additions and didn't comment on the reason I gave for reverting ("undue"). While of course we will be able to find a lot of sources supporting those qualifications, I still hold
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article on the
Rossoliński-Liebe's book. What definitely existed was the document with the title "The Struggle and Activities of the OUN in Wartime" from 1941. I am pretty sure I saw it before, and it said indeed that Jews must be eliminated, but I can not right now find the text of this document.
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1.5 mln is the number of Jews killed by the
Germans and their allies on the Soviet territory from 1940, so including Jews of from the prewar eastern Poland. And while some of the killings can be attributed fully or partially to the Ukrainians collaborators, not all of them were associated with the
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I don't have the expertise to know for sure, but at first glance the current article appears to have horrendous NPOV problems. As I understand it, the term refers to many different groups and them and their activities over nearly a century of history. At first glance, the current article looks a
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The problem with this article is that in current form its title clearly does not match the content. Instead of describing the term the article tells about the history of the OUN (b), in a form that raises many questions about its objectivity, as we can see above. I believe that whole the article
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There was a suggestion by a few recent editors to change the topic of the article from describing the "members of an assortment of right-wing organizations" to describing the propaganda term. Please discuss. When any consensus is reached please ask for unprotection of the page. In this case the
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I agree with
Poeticbent; there's no good reason that info isn't included here. Otherwise, the entire article may as well be merged back into the article about Bandera where discretionary sanctions apply. Yulia Romero is clearly a Ukrainian nationalist and I think her partisanship has clouded her
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Some people see him primarily as a national hero fighting against foreign (Polish and
Russian) occupation. Why choose one qualification over the other ? I said you didn't explain your "additions", meaning that an edit summary should give other editors at least a hint at why you did something.
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The source is the photo from
Wikimedia I provided, alongside many other photos. What clearer source is there than a photo showing Ukrainian nationalists waving UPA flags with pictures of Bandera? This genocide denial and double standard from Knowledge is disgusting but sadly not surprising.
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coverage in Knowledge, you blanked the history of the Banderite movement, along with reliable third party peer-reviewed sources, but why? — Is that because that history included information about the spread of antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other
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Feel free to do so, but please remember that all claims made must be covered by reliable sources. And we should also keep in mind that people who honour Bandera may do so for a wide range of motives - ranging from simply supporting Ukrainian independence to supporting far-right ideologies.
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This article completely fails to point out that Banderism is alive and well in modern-day Ukraine, it's not just a "propaganda term", there are plenty of photos with evidence of UPA/OUN flags and pictures of the genocidal criminals Bandera and Shukhevych being paraded by nationalists.
791:. Changing the topic to the propaganda term would make it useful. Alternatively the article can be about Ukrainian right-wing and nationalist organizations from the inter-war time to modern days. But in this case the current content including the title is very biased. Any other ideas?
830:(invited by the bot) You are going to have to more thoroughly describe the question in order to get real outside feedback. One of the choices is changing the topic to "the propaganda term" but the meaning of that that is not explained in the RFC or even in the article. Sincerely,
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I can't see how a picture of a torchlight procession in honour of Bandera in 2018 is relevant for an article which is about the Banderites of the 1940s and the use of the term in Russian propaganda. I'd also like to know why you called my removal of the picture "Whitewashing".
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I didn't call any part of the (former) article "exaggerated". WP:DUE is not about single exaggerated claims, it's about balancing information according to what reliable sources say. I simply stated that I don't agree with the rationale (i.e. NOTCENSORED) you gave.
1269:. While Bandera's group doubtlessly committed serious crimes, those crimes have also been used and exaggerated by Soviet and current Russian propaganda to denigrate Ukraine. The way we cover them should be informed by historians, not by Putin's war propaganda.
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All the stuff explaining the history of OUN-B is just duplication of the actual OUN article, and doesn't need to be repeated here in such depth. Thoughts? I think it would improve the article to shift the scope and not talk about two main topics at once.
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desperate attempt to attribute all OUN-UPA crimes to Bandera, while ignoring the simple fact that Bandera himself was arrested by Germans and spent most of the war isolated in a concentration camp. This topic is well explored in Knowledge articles on
1607:" Lol yes, I'm sure "some people" do. "Some people" also think the world is flat. It doesn't (or shouldn't) influence Knowledge's objective coverage of it. You can't just ignore multiple reliable sources calling Bandera an ultranationalist.
1574:" Bandera was primarily a far-right ultranationalist. Such a qualification would make sense to be included because those were his core beliefs. As for me "explain neither of qualifications", they are pretty self-explanatory, are they not?
300:. GenQuest's comment is representative of the consensus: "Stand-alone articles do indeed need enough background information about the main player(s) to get oriented and understand the situation and origins of the article subject matter."
1425:, this number is of course factually wrong. Less than one million of Jews died on the territory of modern Ukraine. OUN-B and other Ukrainian nationalist groups had a direct involvement only in section of these killings.
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Where is the reliable source for your claim that the people in the pic are Banderites ? According to the article, the Banderites were active about 70 years before the picture was taken. You didn't answer my question.
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number is not easy to decide on and not any single editor's business: give them all, commented and with caveats, and let the interested people - editors and users alike - use their own judgement and discernment.
440:). Actually the crimes of Bandera's followers is mentioned in the lead of this article two times. What is the point of mentioning it three times surrounded by biographical information about the person Bandera? —
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The term Banderites was also used by the Bandera followers themselves, and by others during the Holocaust by bullets, and the massacres of Poles and Jews in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia by OUN-UPA in 1943–1944.
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I do not think Bandera or anybody else ever wrote a document with the title "Ukrainian National Revolution". This was more like an idea of an Ukrainian fascist state, which Bandera certainly shared, see e.g.
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and I believe this article should not repeat whatever is written there already with much more reliable sources, and if there's any reason for it to stay is to focus purely on the meaning of the
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PS: Whatever happened 80 years ago, the current war has very little if anything to do with that. Peoples evolve. History, however, must be written and understood, not swept under the carpet.
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The content could be filled out a bit with Kolomoiskyi’s 2014 “Zhidobandera” trolling and the 2019 “I am Bandera” campaign, if anyone can find a decent article or two. Also mention variants
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the current scope of the page. I agree with Deathlibrarian that it needs to be a narrowly defined historical subject, as described in the body of the page. However, it does not hurt to
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there is no extra information that was not already in the article about the "explanation of the background to Banderites' name and purpose" but only biographical information about
494:, you said. Slow down, will you? I do not actually believe in the neutrality of your revert war at the Banderites article. Being an active Ukrainian Wikpedian interested in the
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Question: where could this propaganda be conducted? Why should it be conducted in a multinational state, where one careless decision could lead to the collapse of the state?
1763:. In typical Western liberal fashion the problem according to the NYT isn't that Ukraine trains and arms fascists, but rather that this "risks fueling Russian propaganda".
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search/selection for the worst things that any of them ever did ever and then describing / characterizing them characterizing them based on that selective selection. The
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This is the question of why, according to the author of this article, the term "Bandera" began to be used as propaganda in the Soviet Union, and not when, but in 1942.
349:. I think that Poeticbent should insert this information in the article about Mr. Bandera or discuss this on the talkpage there. Basically want to know if the
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Should we change the topic of the article to the propaganda term or keep it to the Ukrainian right-wing organizations from the interwar period until present?
885:,” as a common noun, and don’t forget an article is typically about a thing, not about a name (I can’t find that perfect guideline to quote at the moment). —
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Then perhaps the article should be updated to reflect that followers of Stepan Bandera are still active in Ukraine, rather than pretending the opposite.
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and suggest to remove the "far-right" qualifier because "some people" in the world see him as a hero (which also does not mean he cannot be far-right).
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The notion that Ukraine doesn't have a fascism problem is a common theme in NATO propaganda. Even NYT recently felt the need to address the fact that
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I still hold that those qualifications are undue here, because we could also find a lot of other qualifications, depending on the source we use.
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What are the total figures circulated by various historians, relating to Jews, Poles, Romanians and all other ethnic groups affected?
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that those qualifications are undue here, because we could also find a lot of other qualifications, depending on the source we use.
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Not much activities yet. I am thinking that changing the topic of the article is a good idea. Currently it looks like a low quality
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this and that were wrong (re: "he forgets to mention"), that is, its opinion based arguments that really shouldnt be in an intro.
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blanked the history along with reliable third party peer-reviewed sources about crimes committed by Poles in the second world war
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Beyond pictures of neo-Banderites waving flags and sporting various forms of reactionary patches, there are also things like
1675:. Where is the source (reliable, not just Russian propaganda) connecting modern Ukrainian patriotism with genocidal crimes ?
1740:. Beyond Bandera himself, Ukraine also has monuments and streets dedicated to various Hitlerites. Kyiv City Council renamed
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
530:. I never made one edit aimed at promoting Svoboda and Right Sector. Unlike you who tried to whitewash Polish crimes with
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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please self-revert, you removed informations about the Banderite crimes against Jews and Poles. Let me remind you about
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objects to me, or preferable another editor, removing all biographical information about the person Bandera from the
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procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which is a contentious topic.
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The 1.5 million figure is that given by the US Holocaust Museum. But I can't find a source for the Putin quote.
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Finally I will point out that a source being propaganda does not mean that source isn't reliable. WP considers
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most of the 1.5 million Jewish victims killed during the Holocaust in Ukraine were murdered by the Banderites
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Some people see him primarily as a national hero fighting against foreign (Polish and Russian) occupation.
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I didnt though. I removed off topic stuff. What do you want me to put back exactly?
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Keep it the way it is! It's not "propaganda", banderists were and are a real thing
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You can't see how a picture of Banderites is relevant to an article on Banderites?
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today can be connected with genocide. For exactly that idea, you'd need a source.
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mention the usage as a propaganda term. The lead should be modified accordingly.
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The only one given relates to just one of several pogroms (4,000 Jews killed).
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changing the article from its current historical discussion of the Banderites.
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Clearly, there's a major case of misunderstanding here with regard to what a
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to be reliable, despite it being a propaganda outlet funded by the CIA.
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I believe that it should not contain any biographical information about
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are currently embroiled in a dispute about this Knowledge article. Per
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Just so you know, Yulia Romero user is a male contributor. Thanks,
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objectivity; I don't think she should edit in this space, at all.
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current (Saturday 17 February 2018) "History section at Banderites
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option seems better in that respect but has a lot less content.
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pictures of Ukrainian troops with Nazi symbols keep popping up
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contains biographical information about the person Bandera? —
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named after Galizia Division Hauptsturmführer Dmytro Paliyiv
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revolutionary wing of the OUN, ie OUN-B, Bandera fraction.
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Clearly there is a misunderstanding of what the policy on
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This version described as being about the colloquial name
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actually Ukrainian, as stated in the current intro?). —
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Sounds like an improvement. I’d suggest moving to “
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current "history" section of this Knowledge article
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1239:Removal of information about the Banderite crimes
813:looks like it's more suitable for such purpose
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1097:Participate in the deletion discussion at the
534:. Please show me the edits in which I promote
1504:This would be along the lines of the article
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526:. Apparently you don't believe in the policy
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789:Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists
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1734:statue of Stepan Bandera in Ternopil
1291:exaggerated exactly? You need to be
317:The following discussion is closed.
193:WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES
119:This article is within the scope of
557:And do you or don't you agree that
503:Ukrainians by the Bandera faction?
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862:That version (about organizations)
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139:Knowledge:WikiProject Ukraine
133:and see a list of open tasks.
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1738:Stepan Bandera Street (Lviv)
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600:Talk to me!
572:Talk to me!
479:Talk to me!
451:Talk to me!
423:Talk to me!
364:Talk to me!
54:Start-class
1816:Categories
1744:Avenue to
1151:MOS:IRELEV
956:Banderites
907:banderlogs
785:WP:POVFORK
729:banderites
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488:Whoa ...
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259:Archive 1
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552:wp:NPOV
544:Svoboda
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400:In the
163:on the
136:Ukraine
127:Ukraine
83:Ukraine
1768:RFE/RL
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1732:, the
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304:Cunard
60:scale.
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460:Does
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