Talk:Brahma Kumaris/Archive 4

1840:"Brahma Kumaris has been active, primarily in recent years, in many different areas. A number of these activities need to be mentioned. Of course, courses are given which are connected to raja yoga. One should mention here the course ‘Positive Thinking'. Related to this is the course, ‘Stress-free Living' which is also concerned with developing a proper way of thinking and a proper tuning in to one's most profound nature. Courses such as ‘Self-Managing Leadership', ‘Secrets of Self-Esteem', ‘Self-Management for Quality of Life' have a similar orientation: the emphasis continually falls on understanding who the human being is at bottom is how the human being is connected with the All-Highest and how rest, power and balance can be brought into life. Another category of activities is more global in nature. Brahma Kumaris has been involved in the activities of UNO, UNESCO and UNICEF, it has supported human rights, the importance of a good education, and defended more equality among people. Within this framework there are a number of connected programs, such as ‘The Million Minutes for Peace' (in which the intention is that for a few minutes every day several people think positively of world peace), ‘Global Cooperation for a Better World', ‘Sharing our Values for a Better World'. The latter project has been continued in the still existent ‘Living Values'. The ‘interfaith' projects should be mentioned in this same context: the unity of all religions is sought and members are active in organizations that promote or pursue this. Finally, the attempt is made to be active in different sectors of social life. Thus there are programs dealing with art, organization of academic conferences (it is not for nothing that Brahma Kumaris is called the Spiritual University), contacts within the world of medicine, and programs for working with prisoners, etc." 1812:"The human being is essentially an eternal soul. In the beginning all souls lived together, with the All-Highest Soul in an non-material world, but because of the law of karma the souls left this world for the material world and entered into human bodies. All souls play their own roles in the material world and therefore assume a body in order to give expression to their original positive qualities. Only in the body is the soul able to experience life. Apart from the connection to the physical, the soul has three aspects: intellect, conscious mind, and subconscious mind. The intellect is the guiding and determining part of the soul; it determines the thoughts and the condition of the human being, with the intention that it become independent of the human being and does not allow itself to be influenced by external factors. The mind is that part of the soul that produces thoughts and ideas; emotions, feelings and experiences are also located in this part of the soul. It is of great importance to discover how and why thoughts are created, for if they are determined or created by external negative influences, the individual becomes spiritually darkened. It is very important to understand the origin of thoughts. The unconscious mind contains the so-called sanskars, i.e. the impressions or consequences of everything that one undergoes or has undergone in this life or has undergone in previous lives. It is in particular this unconscious mind that primarily bears on the origin of the thoughts. It is the intention of Brahma Kumaris that the origin of thoughts and thinking itself become increasingly determined by the orientation to the All- Highest Soul. If this contact exists, people will become freer and the sanskars will be purified." 1804:"The ideas concerning God deviate considerably from what we encounter within Hinduism as a whole. Not only is God eternal, the eternal power or energy but matter is also eternal—it is not created by God. But the souls that we encounter in human beings are also eternal. They do not emerge from God and are not created by him. God is seen as one of the souls, even though he is the ‘supreme soul' or the ‘all-highest soul'. He therefore has all knowledge and is in that sense omniscient, although he is not omnipresent. Traditionally, Hinduism speaks of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, and these three are seen as a unity. In Brahma Kumaris, however, Shiva stands above the trimurti and the third aspect is termed Shankar. On the one hand, this notion of trimurti is understood in line with the traditional Hindu view, namely as creator, preserver, and destroyer. But on the other hand the movement gives a more specific content to these terms. The meaning of the ‘creator aspect' means that God, whenever humanity is at a low point, will come into the world, awaken humanity and thus restore primal harmony; such an act of creation will preferably occur via a messenger, whereby one can think of someone like Lekh Raj. Shiva's ‘preserver aspect' becomes visible in the energy that he gives through, for example, the power of the raja yoga and through the knowledge that is derived from him in this last period, through which one can develop a balanced personality. The ‘destroyer aspect' is expressed in the fact that evil and negativity will be eliminated, particularly by the meditative activities of those who walk along the way." 1831:"Above all, raja yoga has to do with meditation, whose content consists in that one is occupied with the understanding that the soul is on the way to God. The meditation strengthens this understanding, increases one's knowledge and strengthens the connectedness. The meditation and the knowledge leads to the formation of character and to service. Meditation makes a person internally and personally stronger and leads others to be inspired to follow the way and to become purified as well. Raja yoga also entails a ‘spiritual lifestyle', which includes that one be a vegetarian, seek good company, be regularly occupied with study and have as many fixed moments as possible during the day for meditation and live a life oriented towards celibacy. The meditation practice of the raja yoga consists of sitting properly, eyes open but directed internally, possibly listening to a text or music, preferably under the supervision of a (female) guide. There are different stages in the meditation: first, the preparation within which visualization plays a role, followed by the initial meditation in which one is conscious of one's soul and of God, next is concentration in which one experiences the purity and directness of the One and finally, realization, in which the unique connectedness of the soul with the Supreme Soul is attained." 1419:"it is unquestionably that from the very beginning of the life of the organization its male founder, Dada Lekhraj, gave special encouragement to women to develop their spiritual lives and take leadership positions. Not only did he devolve his fortune and the responsibilities of administering it upon a trust of nine women as the very act of foundation of the Brahma Kumaris, but when, some few years after his life transforming visions, he came to believe that celibacy was necessary to achieve salvation, he rejected the Hindu practice of restricting the elevated status of celibate seeker to men. Indeed much was made in the early life of the organization of the failure of so many Hindu men to live up to their traditional roles as "gurus" to their wives; correspondingly women enjoyed much appreciation as the ones who so often demonstrated their capacity for virtue as required by traditional family life (Chander 1981: 23). Anyone, regardless of sex, who was prepared to adopt chastity and follow purity rules concerning diet and alcohol was eligible to join Lekhraj and be a full member (a brahmin) of the organization. As it happened, a high proportion of early members were women and their children. 2896:

of context. I took a look at other religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. (Brahma Kumaris as defined, it is a religion according to researchers as cited in the article.)The only one that has such a header is Christianity. Further, if we go into the contents it is not the "tabloid material" stated here. I don't know of any religion where human problems have not come up. Christianity and child molestation is an example.However, we do not see that malicious intention on those articles. Same about "Heidi Fittkau-Garthe." An ex-member. Would that give me the right to say that Pinochet (ex-chilean president) who was accused for crimes against humanity, and to use that and put it in the Christianity page, because he is Christian? or the "use of force," which I am neither denying nor accepting, I am just questioning: Is that considered encyclopedic material? In conclusion, I am looking forward to seeing reliable sources used as citations in previous work done by researchers in the field of religion. After all, that is the quality of resources this article currently has.

1849:"Formally, the movement does not have any ‘holy book'. Nevertheless, there is the so-called ‘Murli', a work that has originated since Lekh Raj received his messages. It contains the words of the Highest Soul itself. These messages have been written down and are largely to be found in the Murli. The work is thus to be used for teaching and study. This material is therefore extremely important, for it provides the truth and true knowledge. The truth content of the book also has a continual effect in the experiences of the disciples: one does not accept the words in a purely intellectual way but learns in one's own life that the knowledge is completely true. The Murli is read and studied carefully. Nevertheless, the Murli did not close with the death of Lekh Raj. Messages continued to be received from the other world via one person, Dai Gulzar. The messages are becoming increasingly more rare, but they still occur. The knowledge that has been passed on also appears in the Murli. 603:. I am informed that a surrendered BK brother committed suicide in one of the important BK centers of Delhi situated at a prime location (Raja Garden, Mayapuri). When the center-in-charge of that center, who is a Dadi Rukmini, found that BK's dead body in the room at 4am meditiation, she locked it from outside and continued all the programmes of the Thursday class, including offering food to God, serving and eating it while a corpse was lying at the center. After most of the students had left, she is said to have informed the other BKs who were reportedly very upset, informing the physical relatives of the deceased brother which led to public scene and the center being atacked. The sister was allegedly called to Mt. Abu by Prakashmani Dadi and reprimanded. 4407:

material you should point out so there is no doubt that the researcher used those words. If you point to a site it needs to be a reliable source, researched material. I will be looking forward to seeing that by the end of Friday in this page. In the past I have placed the quoted material in this talk page before updating the BK page. I am expecting the same from you. One last question: There is an IP coming from California in the "history" it is 64.121.65.67 Is that You? It seems that this IP has been involved with user .244 in the past. That Ip had changed this article as well without discussion. I will place a warning in that IP talk page. To make you happy and to be fair, I will make every attempt to sign as "avyakt7." If I couldn't I will add

3880:(example of deleting his talk page with all warnings) Please do not try to drift our attention to other matters specially if they have been addressed before. Just Go to the library, be nice to the librarian and make a couple of photocopies of reliable sources, scan it, make a PDF file out of it and place it in your website bkinfo for easy download. Then add the pertinent references under the reference section which I started, so anyone can go to their own public library and get a copy of the article you quoted. Of course, you should get materials which support your writings. You do not need to revert this page to see what you wrote.. it is still out there being mirrored by other sites. 1822:"In accordance with classical Hinduism, there is within Brahma Kumaris the doctrine of the four or five world ages: the golden age (sat yuga), the silver age (treta yuga), the copper age (dvapar yuga) and the iron age (kali yuga). Within this last age, however, as a kind of preparation for the new golden age, there is the diamond age (samgam yuga). The content of the ages is about the same as in Hinduism; the most striking difference is that for Brahma Kumaris the whole cycle lasts 5000 years in total. At the moment the world is now in the kali yuga, although this age is near its end. After the kali yuga the world will be completely different and transformed into a new golden age." 1489:

and associated work in prisons, homes for the elderly, drug clinics and hospitals; and they show the BKs’ increasing internationalisation and links with the United Nations and UNICEF, through their central role in such international projects as ‘The Million Minutes for Peace’, ‘Global Co-Operation for a better World’ and ‘‘Living Values: An Educational Initiative’ (Walliss,1999). The meditation practice, of verbalised reflection with one’s eyes open, is supported by a disciplined way of life (Howell, 1997, p. 151) and in the West this practice is linked with opportunities for empowerment and success in life (Skultans,1993, p. 58; Walliss, 1999.")

4743:

be published this week. I am following Knowledge (XXG) policies and practices. A user who has been recently blocked comes back and does the same vandalism again and ... nothing happens to him! I am certainly looking forward to hearing about the 9 points above. I have never refused to go into mediation nor arbitration. However, I request the article be changed as it was yesterday when I changed it while we wait for mediation or arbitration. User .244 has nothing to lose with this request on the other hand Brahma Kumaris does. I feel this inmediate change by a recently blocked user fits the "clearly out of wack" statement you made.

641:"Russia's 1990 Law on Freedom of Religion constitutionally protected the free practice and state tolerance of religion but the law has inadvertently restricted many religious freedoms and exposed disturbing realities of Russian political processes. Provincial politicians and the Russian Orthodox Church feared the influence of new religions. Thus, outside of the major cities local laws have denied the Russian constitution and without official reprisal have banned many religious practices in these provincial regions." Now, you see why they call them sects, cults and all those names which you are very fond of? 1435:"Whaling (1995) and Walliss (1999, 2002) summarise the historical development and content of BK outreach in meditation classes, conferences and work in prisons and homes for the elderly and hospitals; and they show the BKs’ increasing internationalisation and links with the United Nations and UNICEF (Walliss,1999). The meditation practice, of verbalised reflection with one’s eyes open, is supported by a disciplined way of life (Howell, 1997, p. 151) and in the West this practice is linked with opportunities for empowerment and success in life (Skultans,1993, p. 58; Walliss, 1999.") 812:

seemed a nice bloke who genuinely wanted the article to be accurate, unlike this avyakt 7 fellow who seems intent on just creating a straight piece of bk propaganda rather than a balanced article. It seems only right that this article should be written by bks and ex bks, otherwise how can it possibly ever be a clear picture. The article avyakt keeps deleting and replacing with pro bk material was actually written by bks and ex bks, contrary to what you might think, it has evolved over time and it would be a shame for it to be white washed over with bland pr driven material.

2551:"channelled messages" is clearly spelled out to satisfy those with a predilection to it. As far as "attempting to twist a fair an impartial statement." Please submit proof of that, otherwise it will be considered defamation. 99% of the material in the current BK page is quoted from experts in the field. Same holds true about Patanjali. His name has been mentioned as well as the difference between Raja Yoga and his teachings (they are not the same.) Any reader who would like to obtain further information can go ahead and look up the words in wikipedia. 1715:

frequent thing within the BKWSU I think it is only fair to note that they are Associated. See, like in all governmental bodies one can not lobby an organisation without having been out of that area for a given time (time varies by country). So, it is of public interest that they be named as associates, as it would be in par with the public interest in disclosure, since the BKWSU is still listed as an NGO with the UN. Meaning that these individuals then can not go within one body for connections, then proceeding onto another using said access.PEACE

802:

need to write this? I will revert that article because you have not provided a single reference (now, you know that reference is different than Bibliography, right?) nor a reliable source according to Knowledge (XXG) to support the paragraph which has been replaced. In this way, readers of the BK page in Knowledge (XXG) at least have the chance to read something that has been quoted from experts in the field. You are heading to a 3RR and vandalism as far as I am concerned. Show your reliable sources quoted in your article. Best WIshes,

1269:

descent and the role of mediumship/channeling in the organization's beliefs and spiritual practices. I gave this example as a relatively certain fact about the BKs. Neither you, Riveros11, nor you Avyakt7, acknowledged this fact, its central role in the BKs, its undisputed nature, which appears to provide ample justification for being included in the introductory paragraph. Your new introduction is not an improvement and not an addition: it is a wholesale replacement of what appeared before. Do you acknowledge this?

565:

ideology and the claims to the absolute truth of their convictions about `the path to salvation' tempt people and fully captivate those who seek changes and new landmarks .... " The following groups are mentioned in this document: Brahma Kumaris, The Family, Iskcon, Scientology, Shri Chinmoy, Transcendental Meditation, The Unification Church, and some others in Missionerskoe Obozrenie, March 1996, N3, 8. Significantly, the note was published by the Missionary Foundation of the Russian Orthodox Church.

3335:"not unduly self-serving, and not defamatory to third parties. For example, a book published by an religious organization if available from stores, or online outlets, can be used to describe the views/beliefs/traditions of that organization (attributed to them and not asserted as fact, of course). Same applies for materials/statements/opinions, etc. described in that organization's website, under the same caveats of notability, of not contentious nature, and not unduly self-serving. ≈ jossi ≈ t" 5042:

placed a warning in his talk page as well. If user Maleabroad finds something which needs to be changed, he must discuss that issue here. Also, the segment on "beliefs and practices" which was tagged by admin Jossi for a re-write, was fianlly re-written. I had valuable help to re-write this part, being careful of maintaining the substance in Professor Kranenborg's cited article. One of the paragraphs named "activities" inside "beliefs and practices" was moved into "achievements."

3064:

practices I find this statement an effort of poisoning the well. I think I was being very neutral until I started to get the “the treatment” by the TEAM once I was not willing to go on their team. If you see the history you can see that I have been engaged in discussion with my supposed team member and we do not always agree. My position is they are trying to change the article in to a report by this fellow he has quoted so widely without doing any original writing or editing.

1932:

part of it it does not have any ground to stand by itself unless a reliable source is shown. I have not seen the Christianity page dealing with issues of child abuse and their priests, for instance; even though this issue is part of public knowledge. This page is about Brahma Kumaris, even though a link and a brief explanation could be added in relationship with "splinter groups," unless a reliable source is shown (which I have not seen yet) it may need to be removed as well.

38: 1581:

attending only a couple of evening lectures. As I recall, I was reminded that the service was free, but that if I felt it appropriate,I was welcome to use the clearly located donation boxes. I have very recently discussed this issue with a number of other associate users, and not one has had an offer of donation refused. However if you can cite a reputable source that suggests otherwise, I’d be very interested to see it. sincerely

1862:"Through the channelled messages it became clear that Shiva was not to be understood as one of many Hindu gods, but in monotheistic terms as ‘The Supreme Soul.’ In this and other respects the movement distinguished itself from Hinduism, and indeed from all religions. Its knowledge, gyan, the true knowledge, was thus identified as ‘spiritual’ rather than ‘religious,’ and the movement as a whole was cast as a ‘university.’ 114: 1246:

from having a bias opinion in this. As you can see in the first paragraph, I have added information which is available to anyone by providing the sources and which have not been written originally by a BK. I invite you to post your reliable sources, so we can collaborate in writing a neutral article. Needless to say, I agree with Searchin man's suggestion, it is the most sensible way to go according to

4013:

than spend so much energy in trying to cite websites from proponents and critics, the article will be better served if old-style research is done by looking into scholarly books and articles that must exist for this religion. If there are none, which I doubt, then the article needs to be reduced to the minimum or maybe deleted for lack of notability. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

3642:

not start this article in good faith. Thus your writings as I showed in the link above are not meant to inform the public in a aneutral fashion but rather to show animosity and revenge to this movement. You continue to paraphrase and interpret BK literature as you think it is meant to be. Moreover, BK materials are not reliable sources by definition. How many times do I need to repeat that?

3792:

stores, or online outlets, can be used to describe the views/beliefs/traditions of that organization (attributed to them and not asserted as fact, of course). Same applies for materials/statements/opinions, etc. described in that organization's website, under the same caveats of notability, of not contentious nature, and not unduly self-serving. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

3198:

2824:

public website located at: www.brahmakumaris.info which notably portrays an antagonistic vision towards Brahma Kumaris. I thought, I should mention this to you Jossi and Sethie as a background for your help in keeping this article as non-biased as possible. That is the reason why academia has been highly quoted in the majority of this article. It is non-biased research.

1381:"The threshold for inclusion in Knowledge (XXG) is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Knowledge (XXG) has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." 994:

support that paragraph. Look forward to reading them. I am particularly interested in this statement: "Dada Lekhraj, known then as "Om Baba", in turn denounced the Congress as "Kansa" or wicked and under pressure of Hindu public opinion, the Sindh government reluctantly banned the Om Mandali, which went to court and had the ban order quashed." Sources?

1174:

research work of independent academics. To me at any rate, it seems the problem at this stage is the reluctance of the ex-bk contributors to consider working with these references, therefore Avyakt7 is left with his own interpretation. I also can't help noticing that the last time you attempted to influence the direction of the section in question

4380:

planning to do rather than informing us after the fact. As far as your arbitration petition as stated by an admin in the page you archived without letting us know, the desicion was taken rather quickly. Now, I hope you are happy with my lenghty explanation. I just have a very simple question for you. Actually it is a "yes"/"no" question: Ready?

2767:

4059:

595:. we have received a newspaper report about this incident, it related to the burning of a BK sister at the center in Agra. The neighbours saw smoke coming out of the center. The police reportedly found contraceptives at the site. Apparently some incident of a sexual nature took place before she killed and burnt within the center. 2031:

is non reliable source (unless used by researchers) b) You are not a Brahma Kumaris member but antagonist to this organization and thus using it for your own purposes (to defame the institution)as stated by the Knowledge (XXG) policy about Reliability. c) You are not an expert in the field. Hope I will not repeat this again.

1855:

certain spiritual level has to be attained before one can work with it. The adherents are to take it very seriously and study it carefully. The degree of seriousness with which it is to be studied is apparent in the fact that the participants are engaged in study of this text for a long time from six o'clock in the morning.

361:. It means that if you are not a BK writing this article, this policy does not apply to you. You .244; you are not a BK. Your aim is not to inform the public with researched information but rather to discredit Brahma Kumaris. One more time, please make sure you understand this clearly. As always, best wishes for you. 4981:

Thank you for your timely visit, Jossi. USer .244 is probably waiting to block me as soon as I make the change. He has blanked his talk page with all the warnings he had, thus Will I need to start all over again from warning 1 on his page? My talk page on the other hand, has never been erased. I will

4805:

You requested either arbitration or mediation. I answered to you that I was fine with it and selected Arbitration. I told you that I wouldn't revert the page, even though I could and I will unless I hear from you today. I am not willing to play your games anymore and even though I am showing that you

4402:

Dear TalkAbout, Please do not change the contents of this article without previous discussion. Your comments of "fixing mess with references." (history) it is not appreciated. No one has asked you to do that task. Please let us know in this page what you are up to before you do it. I will revert that

4239:

I agree that you believe that "there is no discussion going on. Just a lot of pointless and repetitive accusation and counter-accusation." And now I understand why you chose to archive pages while there was still activity going on. And so I would ask you to unarchive any material (whether you want to

3827:

As far as the channelling and mediumship, it is clearly stated in the academic papers your refer to and so I am happy to use those references as the involvement of channelled spirits and deceased members is central to BK practise, in contrast to Classical Raja Yoga, and being written out of the topic

3327:

Which part of brahmakumaris.info as not being a reliable source you did not understand? Many of the posters and materials in this site were coming from your bkinfo site. Let me add this to the mix: Did Brahma Kumaris gave you permission to use its material? Knowledge (XXG) is very serious about this.

2275:

Looking at the experts we have reference to "someone entering" Lekhraj Kirpalani, the "incarnation and descent into", channelling via Gulzar, a different voice speaking. Looking at Walliss and Chander we have reference to Kirpalani's eyes and body glowing red which in case there is any doubt has been

1983:

In the meanwhile, there seems to be no point in engaging in repeating the citations and references already given on both the topic article and discussion page when the Brahma Kumaris editors are going to continue to ignore them. But, thank you Luis for confirming the channelling issue in the archived

1714:

As the sites refer back to the association with BKWSU it seems then the heading should be Active Associates of BKWSU. As you once alluded here that John Paul II was associated with BKWSU (which is not the case), in name dropping which seems to be a trend ala "Under the auspices of the UN" which is a

1424:

In the 1950s when Dada Lekhraj (or "Brahma Baba") judged the time right to send people out from the home community (by then in Mt. Abu, India) to open te aching centers elsewhere in India, it was young women he chose to spread the Brahma Kumaris teachings (cf. Chander 1981: 156). Today the leadership

811:

hi searching man, welcome, i only challenged simonB because he was using text from an old book written by jagdish who is as you know or was a full time surrendered member of the bkwsu, so it hardly seems likely that his work would be unbiased let alone accurate, I have nothing against simon, to me he

801:

Dear .244, Do not try to go around the " I can use BK materials for this article" Read the WIKIPEDIA policy completely. You cannot use it because this article has not been written by a BK. It has been written by individuals like yourself and TalkAbout which are clearly against BK. How many times do I

791:

and even the one in Christianity. You will see two distinct sections: One is for references (notes) the other for Bibliography. Do you see the distinctive bullets in each one? No wonder both of you (talkAbout and .244) do not/cannot understand what is a reliable source... Please don't make changes if

725:]. And given that the Bkwsu have been studied in detail and at length by a number of independent academics. It would then seem obvious to me, that the study, comparison and citation of these reputable 3rd party resources is the best way to ensure mutual agreement on future development of the article. 564:

In November 1995, the German Embassy in Moscow issued a verbal note to the Russian foreign minister listing a number of "youth sects" which "represent dangers because their hierarchial, authoritarian structure often contradicts the commonly accepted democratic values: ... and because their underlying

4742:

Dear Sethie, The changes I have made after following admin Jossi's suggestion have been removed by user .244. Note that even the section which he tagged to be re-written by me (since I was the author) has been taken away by .244 in a forceful manner without discussion... The re-written version will

4694:

Dear Sethie, Please note: That link is not a reliable source. It is not a researched document. Note that none of the authors have any academic credentials or demonstrated expertise in the article. And.. because a report comes from France, a particular location.. it cannot be generalized...unless the

4356:

As the target of all these BKs' accusation and incriminations, I see BK SimonB putting in complaints without notice and behind my back too, for my part I agree to work with the academic citation and some BKWSU self-published sources within the limits stated by Wiki policy. I cannot be more fair than

4337:

to engage in Arbitration. He was informed. He refused. I tried to engage BK Luis is meditation. He was informed. He refused. So, I put the article up for RfC regards the self-published citations aspect. Noting that two admins have already repeated the clear written policy on this. Luis refuses. What

4012:

Dear .244, I can explain the wiki policy to you: 1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources. Can you read that? That is the wiki policy. then, take a look at this "I encourage all of you to seek reliable sources and use them appropriately." Finally: Rather

3929:

I think I may have erred in voting to reject the arbitration. But it was taken down rather quickly. I encourage all of you to seek reliable sources and use them appropriately. I think material published by the organizations may be used as a source for non-controversial material such as basic beliefs

3884:

I hope this is clear: You are vandalizing this page. We went through a period of change before. Everything had been placed in the talk page for people to see and to make adjustments/suggestions. You and supporters failed at that time to provide reliable sources to your "original writings." (see last

3641:

Dear .244, I have written several times the reasons why using BK materials are not proper. Why do you continue asking the same questions? Please refer to this page: "Non contentious material" and "self-serving." What you fail to understand or just want to oversee altogether, is the fact that you did

3339:

Your use of BK materials have been defamatory and they have not been "self serving." You need to use "materials/statements/opinions, etc." from the Brahma Kumaris site. As a matter of fact it is customarily good practice to request for permission before citing any material, as I have done when using

3119:

in this new activity since this individual has been open in the public arena and cites the very documents/beliefs that he says should not be allowed here but is presenting it to the public as “Truth”. If in communications/Murli documents they admit to beliefs/practices yet deny them here, I say we

2980:

There is nothing we can do about mirrors of WP. Some of these update their data once in a while by re-mirroring. As for your other comments, if there is controversy or criticism about the subject, that controversy will be certainly eported in reliable, secondary sources, that can be described in the

2578:

Wallis when referring to "world service" which was started in 1952, states:"Lekhraj had from the very beginning published numerous pamphlets and written a huge amount of letters to important national and international figures in which he interpreted contemporary events with reference to his revealed

2370:

Your opinion contradicts the quoted experts and is only your opinion. They are referred to as a breakway group in both the expert opinion and the topic. Acceptable self-published material state that they comprise of BK members, follow BK principles, believe in BK teaching and are part of the one and

2243:

I can understand why the organization and its members would want to whitewash this out of the article, it does not go along with the current PR, UN status etc and might put individual off from engaging with its practises; but in all fairness the article would not be complete if it was not mentioned.

2030:

Be careful with your words about BK "PR." This is a fully researched material, non bias, written by experts in the field. One last thing, It seems that there is a tendency here to endlessly repeat what was stated before. I do not belong to the IT Team and... you cannot use BK material because: a) It

1973:

The Request for Mediation has been rejected due to the other editors refusing to participate. Could we just clarify what is going on here? Is it correct to say that none of the Brahma Kumaris that are engaged in re-writing this topic article in line with the organization's current PR were willing to

1488:

Brahma Kumaris World Outreach As expressed by researchers Nesbitt and Henderson: "Whaling (1995) and Walliss (1999, 2002) summarise the historical development and content of BK outreach at a local and national level in terms of the development of meditation, stress reduction and self-esteem classes,

1413:"most importantly the destruction of the world and its population through war, strife and natural calamities and the emergence of a post-apocalyptic paradise to be populated by the chosen few. Understandably disoriented by these visions Lekhraj decided to sell his business to his partner and retire." 1226:

Duality Rules, I am concerned about portraying a neutral article here. Knowledge (XXG)'s aim is to be an "on line encyclopedia." I believe the the main editors of this article did not consider that when writing this article. An encyclopedia traditionally has researched material (reliable sources) in

1187:

With regard to your subsequent comments regarding cult like influence, I believe the decision to develop a strong faith in any organised body, whether religious, socio-political, or economic, depending on individual circumstance, inevitably runs the risk of psychological disorientation following any

1151:

For these and other reasons, Riveros11, I don't see you can justify wholesale replacing the introductory paragraph. I think you should add on your stuff and not replace, which I offer you an opportunity to do. The old version was the "gold" version. If you want to change it, first put it back how it

1135:

It is especially significant in that the spiritual revelations from this source justify suppressing sexual urges, which the group believes to be acting on destructive impulses that should be transformed. Because when you tell someone that a normal biological function is bad, it is a way of shaming

1131:

To everyone, I want to say that we would expect neutrality at issue. Everyone has to some extent, their point of view. But let us not deny facts: the BKs spiritual practices do involve channeling and trance states of some members. Trance visions connected with the founder and the institution play a

1069:

New contributors are prospective "members" and are therefore our most valuable resource. We must treat newcomers with kindness and patience — nothing scares potentially valuable contributors away faster than hostility or elitism. While many newcomers hit the ground running, some lack knowledge about

849:

Unfortunately the citations you provided do not meet Knowledge (XXG)'s standards since they are sourced from bramakumaris.info and shivbaba.org.pl which are not reputable sources and it is entirely possible that the pictures and text linked to could be altered or invented to say just about anything.

763:

heading only under his favorite items he is implying that the other are therefore not even though they include academic reports and the BKWSU's own material. I think this is poisoning the well in logic terms and very under handed. I am requesting that it be placed back and that his submission be BK

5041:

Dear All, Note that changes have been made without making a revert to a previous version. Rather whatever version was in place was modified according to discussions and suggestions from admin. Took care on leaving out remarks related with Hinduism which user Maleabroad seems to find not suitable. I

4615:

If we can come to a decision over the self-published material within the limits that Wiki policy sets, I will be very happy. This to me would appear too be the only bridge left to cross. That is hardly an unreasonable position. With Luis, we have faced two immense resistances, a) to the channelling

3908:

Dear .244, How many admins do you need to side with you? You know that they need to be informed of everything that is going on here before they act on your one sided story. I have never refused your arbitration. A result was given before I had the chance to post. You need to remember that I have a

3563:

Hope you follow this, .244. I don't have any material that I am using in my website godhascome.org. What I have done is to obtain pdf files of the reliable sources and place them there to be easily downloaded by anyone. I guess I could put them some pplace else, if that is an issue. These PDF files

3532:

Self-published material in an article about the author is acceptable, but only is not unduly self-serving or defaming of third parties. If the material was published by the author, refer to the author, not to a copy of the author's material on an other site, unless that site is a reliable secondary

3212:

will become a useful resource for professionals within the narrow field of "sociology of religion" in time but this topic covers various specialities and some non-academic, e.g. "yoga" and "mediumship", where expert witness must be also accepted from specific theological experts in their own fields

2895:

Dear Jossi, Thank you for your prompt reply and your willingness to take a look at this article from a neutral perspective. I have one more issue to bring up to make my point about the lack of neutrality of the article edited by "Ex-BKs" supporters. The header "controversy and "use of force" is out

2291:

channelled through Gulzar and Lekhraj is God. We cannot know that it is. Academically, it would not be widely accepted that it was. And so, I think that it is safe that we stick to "allegedly God" because the very specific concept the BKWSU has of God is so widely different from any other religion.

1968:

over the issue of using the BKWSU's own published material as being citable and referenceable. There appeared to be no point in entering into discuss or editing until this matter was resolved by a third party. I, of course, see no objection in using BKWSU produced material and indeed have requested

1768:

It is important to recogize that Brahma Kumaris as a Spiritual University has a variety of membership patterns thus, there is a different type of "identity negotiation" (term coined by Wallis) beliefs and practices engaged in by individuals in relationship with the University. Wallis in his article

1742:

As we are approaching the day to assess the validity of "practices and fudamental beliefs," let me remind you that only researched materials considered as "reliable sources" need to be considered. When offering your reasons as to why something needs to be changed, please add the citations to it and

1533:

hi, about donations. It is true that Babas box in the centre can be accessed by anyone, and money can be put in there quite easily, but the maryadas of the bks are clear that money shouldn't in general be accepted from shudras or 'impure souls' meaning those who have not completed the 7 day course.

1241:

I am sure you are aware of the www.brahamkumaris.info site. It has been proved (please see archives) that one of the main editors here has been consciously misrepresenting facts, and writing materials on that site and in other public forums (links which I can provide) with the aim of discrediting

1202:

Anyhow to return to your plea for neutrality I really do welcome this, but I also hope I’m making sense, when, whilst acknowledging there is plenty of ‘hands-on’ expertise around, I suggest to both sides of the chronically deep divide, that the best way to make progress on this, is to collectively

1119:

To many people it is a significant aspect of the group. I think we can all agree that having direct access to meet God, the Father through the eyes and voice of a medium, and for a few lucky souls, to be fed a sweet morsel by the Father of Jesus, be touched by the desireless hand of love, a divine

1108:

So to just overturn the prior introductory paragraph and write a new one that is bland, with a couple references, then to say 'reverting this page is vandalism'... well wait a minute. The pages were there for a reason, had been developed cooperatively by all of us over years, including many people

1104:

Sounds like you are new here. What I think you should know is that some of the authors here have invested tens, hundreds, even thousands of hours over years of their lives at the Brahma Kumaris headquarters at Mt. Abu and at the organization's centers in many countries. In my own case, I have years

860:

The allegation that the BKs modify their knowledge to sustain their faith is actually libel since it makes a negative statement about the organisation with an unverifiable statement about their motive. How can the article make any statement about someone's motive unless mind-reading is considered a

772:

rules for them and shudra rules for others which is unfair and not proper. No other article has such a system and I for one see this similar to racism since part of their philosophy is to think of themselves as superior to others. I don't think this should be a wikipedia policy. So, I am going to

4579:

The wiki is full of people screaming "vandalism", and using all sorts of methods to block or intimidate others, when someone else adds or changes what they have written. I have stated that I perfectly well accept to use the citable sources Luis accepts BUT also that self-published sources are also

4477:

Dear All, As explained before in this talk page, I will go ahead and delete the material following admin Jossi's suggestion. There is not a single reliable source in this page which supports the tags left by Jossi in the article. Perhaps user .244 and supporters do not understand that their links

2823:

There is a point that I would like to stress. Articles which belong to an encyclopedia must be non-biased. User 195.82.106.244 and supporters being the originators of this article do not fit this category. They were "ex-Brahma Kumaris" and by definition, biased. As a matter of fact, user.244 has a

1931:

If you have any reliables sources for the above mentioned topics, now is the time to produce them in this talk page. Otherwise, those headers may need to be removed as well. I have not seen a reliable source explaining in detail about the 7 day course, except for a BK publication. The controversy

1566:

Let me remind you this rule from WIKIPEDIA: "The threshold for inclusion in Knowledge (XXG) is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Knowledge (XXG) has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should

1333:

As I am aware that anyone can give donations, i think this is why they have donation boxes and as far as i know people are not guarding to check whom is giving. its quite odd, people from the BKWSU explain what they teach/preach in one way, "non-BKWSU'ers" say that the bkwsu got it all wrong and

1245:

Duality Rules, It is unfortunate that I didn't exchange with you before.. I did not see you around... by any means I am not the keeper of this page; however as you heard before; please provide those reliable sources. After all, these sources are written by individuals who are completely detached

1196:

Infact since joining this discussion I have felt a need to conduct my own field of enquiry, and it seems that currently, not only are we 'associates' free to access BK services entirely to suit our own agendas, but that many of those who regularly attend the murli class, conduct their relationship

1181:

For me, as someone who considers themselves an associate rather than a more committed member, it is the tone and emphasis of the document that I object to. -It is in the nature of religious movements to have some sort of millenarianism attached to their theology, however I do not for instance see

1073:

The Avyakt7(Riveros ET ALL) and BKWSU TEAM are trying to intimidate people from participation by trying to suss out who they are, where they are from (what centre) in an effort to stop participation. What average person has at their disposal a Tech TEAM at the ready to trace, IPs, e-mail headers,

4406:

take a look at "controversy", "destruction", "virgin birth", "front organizations" and "splinter groups." Evidence means that a link to a "reliable source" supports the paragraph in question. You have selected words for those paragraphs. Some of those words are "weasel words." In your supporting

3728:

You are modifying the article which has reliable sources. I will revert this back. You will be vandalizing this page by making changes before discussing it. I will request a sprotect tag again if you continue. Below is what Jossi wrote. Hope you understand this well enough. As you know there are

3602:

Basically, I want to address this channelling / mediumship / possession issue. As the corportate notepaper clearly refers to Kirpalani as a "medium", there are the academic references and even Luis used the term channelling, I can see no wrong with it. This documents the moment when the so-called

3343:

Please concentrate on producing reliable sources by Friday for those sections which have been tagged by Jossi. You had ample time. I am so sorry to hear that TalkAbout requested time off from work to find citations for her writings. (hope I can use "her" rather than "his")Normally, when you write

3251:

The poster is inarguably BKWSU produced. It has been used publicly for many generations internationally. Permission has been granted to replicate it. To my thinking it makes no difference where the image is stored as long as it is clearly BKWSU. I can understand why Western BKs are embarrassed by

2333:

I see someone has removed the reference to the predicated date if Destruction in 1976 taking place at the end of a 40 years Confluence Age. The references and clear, easily verifiable and so this should be re-instituted. I appreciate that it does not fit the current PR of the BKWSU which seems to

1854:

It has become an important text. Brahma Kumaris does not discuss it right away in courses and the text is not available for sale, but in later stages it plays an important role. In the course of time the book is discussed in advanced courses. It is not discussed until this point because a certain

1400:

Your input is appreciated as long as you have reliable sources. Otherwise, without support this paragraph will replace the current one, tomorrow. As you can see 99% has been cited from researchers experts in this matter. In turn these researchers have cited Chander which is allowed coming from an

1237:

If you look at the archives, you may be able to see that some BKs and myself included, have been trying to make our voices heard and included is this page as well. It has been an on-going struggle to convince some of the ex-Bk members to place their differences aside, to provide reliable sources

1222:

I sincerely appreciate your note. I believe it is well thought out and I understand your view as far as the amount of time which has been placed to build this page. Likewise, as you point out you have experienced BK at one point in your life for many years perhaps as some of the other authors in

997:

and this one: "spending their time in intense spiritual study, meditation and alleged self-transformation. During this time, mediumistic female followers known as "Sandeshputris" or trance messengers helped add to their spiritual knowledge through psychic visions and allegedly direct contact with

637:

Also, let me add the first part of that article by James Richardson for our avid readers to be informed about... (including the admins who will "soon" come after reverting the first paragraph a couple more times...you have no "reliable source" of what you write, so why it should be there while we

306:

The Brahma Kumaris do not consider themselves a separate religion. All white people should stop making attempts to upset Brown people. However, other scholars refer to this movement as a religion or as stated by Professor R. Kranenborg “Brahma Kumaris is in fact a new religion, originating within

4058:

Note that material from an organization's website and literature, can be used in an article about that organization providing that it is properly attributed, not unduly self-serving, and not defamatory to third parties. For example, a book published by an religious organization if available from

3791:

3540:

Rather than spend so much energy in traying to cite websites from proponents and critics, the article will be better served if old-style research is done by looking into scholarly books and articles that must exist for this religion. If there are none, which I doubt, then the article needs to be

3197:

2925:

This particular article is the one written by "Ex-Bks" supporters and the one published here before. Please note the lack of citations, the lack of knowledge about using "References" and "Bibliography" approprietaly, the lack of neutrality and the sheer number of "weasel words." Articles of this

2766:

2075:

Secondly, one does not have to be a Brahma Kumari to record what has been published by Brahma Kumaris and as the Brahma Kumaris state that they have no official membership any way, your position is entirely moot. Such primary sources can be used to make "descriptive claims that can be checked by

1727:

the listed bodies mentioned above all make Money for themselfs not the bkwsu. they have nothing to do with bkwsu. the people who run them yes are active members but that does not mean that there business has something to do with the bkwsu. like there is also active members who have started up a

1230:

As far as I can see, this article does not comply with what have been explained above. Your experience with BK is yours to keep, it may have been not that good for you. Mine is completely different and I have no problems in sharing that, however; Knowledge (XXG) is not the place to voice my good

892:

I should point out that I am not accepting or denying the claims in the paragraph in question. I am asking for citations to match all the claims made to the standards expected in an encyclopedia otherwise the paragraph will be deleted. As the claims attempt to show the organisation in a negative

700:

Here you can collaborate as long as the information is researched by experts in the field. If you have information like that, please feel free to discuss it and post it. It doesn't matter what you think or what I think. Just your references matter. All the other documents and things that you are

584:

I am still waiting to establish an acceptable level of citation for two incidents that I have sufficient evidence to present here but not yet on the topic page. Given the nature of the incidents and the sources mentioned, it will be very easy for BKWSU members to qualify these. I do not see that

4221:

Then I am in error. In looking over the history I thought I saw this happen. I really wish I had taken a clearer look before I had said that. Now that I take a closer look, I see that there are two pages that are being edited. I jumped to a false conclusion. Mea culpa, especially in the current

3734:

Rather than spend so much energy in trying to cite websites from proponents and critics, the article will be better served if old-style research is done by looking into scholarly books and articles that must exist for this religion. If there are none, which I doubt, then the article needs to be

3139:

Please also note that some of the removed items had not been challenged once removed due to the waiting of the arbitration which is now nil. I have requested two-three days from work so I can review all the material cited as I already have found some items they removed which are within the very

2809:

As the talk page shows in the archives, users "195.82.106.244", "talkabout" and supporters would like to use materials which belong to Brahma Kumaris which by definition are not considered "reliable sources." Besides, even if these materials were used by user .244 and group of supporters, these

2550:

Dear .244, I would like to invite you to read the current article, if you have not done it or to re-read it if you have. In reference to "channeling" reliable sources have been provided citing experts in the field which mentions about Dadi Gulzar and the way the messages are received. The words

2489:

It was lunched at Royal College of Physicians, London where Brahma Kumari Dr Sarah Eagger is the chairperson of the "Spirituality and Psychiatry special Interest Group". It supports the BK run and staffed GLOBAL HOSPITAL AND RESEARCH CENTRE and it teaches and promotes Raja Yoga meditiation. The

2152:

OK. It has taken considerable effort but I have an increasing number of referenced hospital and police reports from the Indian States of Haryana, Maharashtra, Rajasthan and Karnataka. These are primary sources but verifiable by date and reference number. Although, I agree, secondary sources are

1953:

As performed before, 3 days to submit your reliable sources in support of the headers stated above. Failure to produce these supports (citations) will result in deletion and, or replacement of the current text on the ground of being improper for Knowledge (XXG) standards due to lack of reliable

1268:

Thanks for your replies. Just because academic links are not supplied from statements contained in the prior introductory paragraph doesn't mean that the statements are false or unsuitable for a wiki article. I gave one example at length in my posting above: the fact of the BK belief in Shiva's

4757:

Three days is quite minimal. Be generous and wait a few more days. You can place a note that "unless sources are provided by such and such date, the material in secton X and sction Y will be removed." That way it is transparent and you give notice. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

4379:

Dear .244, It seems that you like for me to repeat things "ad infinitum." Please do not defame me. I have never refused the mediation nor the arbitration. The mediation was never signed by anyone but yourself. No even a single member of your supporters. Next time let us know here what you are

4124:

News media articles are typically only reviewed by a single editor before going to press. References are often not checked and consequently, at least in the West, legal firms continue to enjoy lucrative returns from the pursuit of news publication editors for libel. Just contrast this with the

3889:

I will place a tag in your talk page warning you about "vandalism." Do not attempt to erase it as you have done in the past, because it is convenient for you. If you keep making changes without previous discussion I will request that your IP be blocked as a vandal. You have been warned. Please

2290:

Luis, you have attempted to twist a fair and impartial statement regarding this channelled entity being "God" without providing any acceptable citation that it is actually "God" claiming that allegedly is a "weasel word". I wrote that the BKWSU "alledge" that the spiritual entity that is being

993:

Now that the references match the opening paragraph and the "origin" header, let us focus on the section which I named "History" to avoid having two "origin" headers. Under History, user .244. please submit your reliable sources which should be easily verifiable under Knowledge (XXG) rules to

3651:

Do you understand that? Hinduism times does not fit this criteria. Old style research is made by academia. You have to have a graduate degree. You have to have credentials. If you do not follow this, you are asking for trouble. Jossi's suggestion is the most sensible in this case. I hope you

3063:

First, I would like to address one thing. I will not say what my contact with the Brahma Kumaris is, as this is part of Avyakt7’s sussing, but will state that what he says is far from the truth here. Having served on a Board that is Nationally recognised for advocating religious freedoms and

1173:

Thanks for dropping by, I think you’ve hit the crux of the matter, neutrality or the complete lack of it, is hampering the article’s development. Which is why I personally have been suggesting that both bk and ex-bk try and reach agreement through the analysis and appropriate citation of the

608:

In both case Police were involved and so public records exist. At least the former was reported in the media. My question is, what degree of citations would the BK IT Team consider suitable for general inclusion in the article and are they willing in providing an institutional response? I was

4752:

Thank you for clarifying in the article. I need to point out that at least 3 days were given for a final attempt to provide reliable resources. Note "3 day drill" in the talk page for every single part of the article. Needless to say, the previous editors have never produce a single reliable

2337:

The PBK section is fine. They also have their own topic page. It is worth noting that it is only the BKs that see the PBKs as not being part of the "Godly Family". The PBKs see themselves are being part of the same organization. We have references to this is the references you have provided.

2308:

at the organization's headquarters in India, I can also add Joachim Finger, 1999. As you know, the current season for BKs to personally listen and speak to "God" via the medium is currently going and so can one of you ask him what he thinks of this business and, especially, the PBKs? Thanks.

1580:

Hi Green108. I think I’ve attended most of the available public courses run by the BK and I don’t recall completing one where anything about the appropriateness of donations was mentioned. On the contrary, I found that I had to enquire about making donations myself, which I first did after

1459:

Gender Role Experimentation in New Religious Movements: Clarification of the Brahma Kumari Case, Howell, Julia. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion; Sep98, Vol. 37 Issue 3, p453-461, 9p. Julia Day Howell is Senior Lecturer in the Faculty of Asian and International Studies, Griffith

1385:

We are in WIKIPEDIA. We need to follow WIKIPEDIA's rules. If what you consider to be "truth" has any reliable resource behind it, please let me know. "My new introduction" can be considered anything you want: bland, not an improvement, etc.. BUT, it has reliable sources behind it and it is

2052:

Read what it says and stop avoiding the issue, "given your quoted academic use of Jagdish Chander's book "Adi Dev", does that mean that it is accepted by the other editors as a citable reference?". I appreciate that you have no intention of discussing these matters but I want your response

2269:

If you are sometimes confused reading out the Murli, Shiv Baba will come and speak the Murli. Then children don't reven realise that Shiva Baba came and helped. You can't even tell if it is Shiva Bab speaking or Brahma Baba speaking. You should realise that Shiv Baba came and spoke the

3536:

Note that we are describing "author"; not the author's supporters. A personal website of supporters is not a reliable source for an article other than one about itself (if that website is notable enough to warrant its own article). Same applies to a non-notable website of detractors or

2672:

as it consist of long quotes from a source without any narrative. The source's quotes need to be summarized rather than using such extensive quotations. Think of the reader: as it stands now this article is quite hard to read and too long. A better lead wold be also nice to have. See

674:

What you are demonstrating to the world is the face of a BK teacher/recruiter/BK IT team trying to cover things up and it is all being document here. Please bear in mind with your edits that the topic should also be clean and read well. Its not merely a point scoring exercise. Thanks.

4051:

Actually, I am not so personally interested in websites but defend others' right to use such. The same published books the academic papers reference and the printed materials of the BKWSU including the easily referencable and citable channelled messages from God called the Murlis are

1469:

Journalof Beliefs and Values, Vol.24, No.1, 2003 Religious Organisations in the UK and Values Education Programmes for Schools by Eleanor Nesbitt, Senior lecturer in Religions and Education, University of Warwick, UK and Ann Henderson, Research Fellow from The Univeristy of Warwick,

4753:

resource. User TalkAbout and the IP address ending in .244 (user known as .244) were the main editors of that article. Since previous notification was given, when do you believe I should erase those parts without reliable resources? Thank You, avyakt7 21:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

822:

Hi Green108, thanks for the welcome. Actually I’ve been popping in every so often for couple of months now. Maybe we’ve just missed each other. Anyhow I’ve already conducted my own analysis of the document's evolution. You’re welcome to catch up with it by checking out my comments

667:

According to the UK charity Commission, the BKWSU was set up to alleviate poverty. Can we please document how much poverty in 30 odd years? Accounts speak much more surely than academics. From my reading, it appears that they have alleviated no one else's poverty except for their

3647:"old-style research" ..." by looking into scholarly books and articles that must exist for this religion. If there are none, which I doubt, then the article needs to be reduced to the minimum or maybe deleted for lack of notability. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)" 1112:

Many of us have witnessed a phenomenon similar to channeling or mediumship in the BKs in the person of Dadi Gulzar and other trance messengers. That is factual, a part of the Thursday bhog ceremony for many many years, and still ongoing at Madhuban and its adjunct facilities.

3076:

along with a host of other sites he frequents to recruit and present the beliefs, invite folks to his website and to BKWSU sites. As such his main website should be listed under the BK section as he is actively recruiting members on their behalf. I place it in and he removes

1147:

Although belonging to this group and accepting its beliefs and practices brings subjective spiritual richness to many, others experience cultlike behavior among BKs and their student/followers, with many cases of severe psychological consequences among those who have left.

1139:

Shaming is a big issue with the BKs, because people have become severely depressed, both attempted and committed suicides, out of shame that has come for many failing to follow the disciplines in the way the BKs teach will be a pure life. Shaming a child is a form of abuse.

1123:

So, Riveross11, by wholly replacing the collaborative introductory paragraph by current uninformative version, without consensus of the many collaborative authors--many of whom are first-hand authorities on the group, I consider that you're edits are the vandalism attack.

1012:. 3 days for 244 "et all" to present "reliable resources" which need to be used as references. Otherwise, I will publish a version fully supported by researchers, experts in the field which will be published instead.(Of course, unless someone else presents reliable sources.) 2568:

As stated before, tomorrow around Noon EST, I will be changing the rest of the article UNLESS reliable sources are shown. That means: a) citations supporting what is currently stated in the article. b) documents which are easily downloaded by anyone to verify the contents.

1663:

Regards to the The following "Names or Organizations", The BKWSU have no Legal say in the running of them. the SML is a product of the Oxford Leadership Academy. Members of the the BKWSU have created there own personal business by adopting aspect of the BKWSU philosophy.

520:

others about having direct contact with them other than the discussion page, as they are seeking to find out who you are to intimidate and harrass. So, please don't contact them. As with any debate, do it out in the open. I for one would like to tell them here in public:

4616:

issue and b) to the Destruction issue despite, again, both being referenced in academia AND he himself putting the points forward them on other website. Again, it comes down to whether the Knowledge (XXG) is PR for such organizations and individuals OR accurate reportage.

4016:

Please .244 realize that reliable sources is the primary means of writing a good article. There are plenty of scholar works which you can refer to. Please go to your library and do a research. Friday is your last day to give any support to your previous writings. Best,

2279:. The Murli references are endlessly clear, once we have an agreement on whether they constitute acceptable citations. This is all rather different, and more direct, than the fey "inspiration" the BKWSU are claiming in public now and the public has a right to know. 1242:

Brahma Kumaris. Duality Rules, please see that. Once you find that some of the authors are willing to go to extremes irregardless of how damaging their actions are just to keep their views in this page, then any sensible person will realize that there is a problem.

4504:

6) User brahmakumaris.info has been creating several pages with different names which refer to Brahma Kumaris. I strongly suspect that user is a sockpuppet of .244. Is there a way to test this? (His unwillingness to respond to my simple question leads me to this

2633:

As stated, changes have been made. I suggest we concentrate on the links as well. Links must reflect the material on the page. Obviously, there are quite a few of them which do not reflect that. Same holds true for Bibliography. Time to check those. Best Wishes,

454:

Dear .244, Thank you for your kind advice. I am sure you know who i am, even though I may sign with different IPs. No reason to hide. BTW, I wonder what happened with user : brahmakumaris.info... perhaps you can shed some light into this, dear .244? Thank you.

1091:

I've been a contributor to this article for more than a year. I'd like to weigh in on the current discussion on neutrality and verifiable sources. These discussions are associated with editing of the introductory paragraph, with which I have also been involved.

4206:. There is no discussion going on. Just a lot of pointless and repetitive accusation and counter-accusation. For discussion there has to be a willingness of all parties to take onboard other's point of view and work to a consensus. 20:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC) 2351:

user: 195.82.106.244. the pbks have nothing to do with the bks, they are much like some of the business's that were under Names or Front Organizations such as Relax kids etc. the pbk was started off by someone taking bk philosophy conducting a new rendition of

2113:

Please go back to the archives. There we discussed the same issue. Please read your link fully. You are against Brahma Kumaris. You use Brahma Kumaris materials to show your animosity.Your BKINFO site is proof of that.Please do not repeat again what we talked

4998:], not expressing a negative attitude to the author myself. There appear to be several examples of weasel words in this article, which cannot be conducive to any apparent neutrality (which I notice is disputed anyway). Under Controversy, it states "Seen by 3328:

Also, it may be possible that any other site is capable of modifying the picture to fit their needs. It is rather easy to accomplish that.Thus, you need to use pictures and materials coming from Brahma Kumaris site AND you need their permission to use it.

1143:

The authority for many of these disciplines of diet and lifestyle derives from accepting the veracity of visions (as of destruction, to give one example) and spiritual channeling (especially Shiva Soul descending into the body of the founder Kirpalani.)

660:

attacks. What you are writing is entirely contrary to what you believe and Shiva Baba says. I wish you would just get over it and working on adding the positive side and that which you can from your position within the BKWSU, e.g. document the charitable

1127:

Rather than argue about it (pointing the finger) I would propose to incorporate both versions, combining the content, not deleting any of it. I think all sides will have to agree that the older version is the more lively, and much more informative.

2071:

Firstly, the issue is "verifiability" when dealing with facts. A source need not be singularly academic. In case of opinion, fine; state the opposing schools of academic thoughts. But reported facts stand alone as long as the source is reputable and

4403:

and next time I will place a "vandal tag" in your talk page. You are being kindly warned. Also, Friday is the last day for yourself and .244 and supporters to present "reliable sources" for the headers in question. Here is a copy of the article:

4606:" then that is not defamation; that is objective, cited reportage. In such a central claim to the BK faith, of God incarnating into their founder only, it cannot be ignored - even if it does not fit into their current or Western orientated PR. 3321:

is not a reliable source for this article, as it is a self-published source by a third party. If there is criticism of this organization and their beliefs, these would be reported on secondary sources. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:38, 13 November 2006

2490:

President Janki Kripalani, is an administrative head of the BKWSU and it is supproted by two BK run organizations, Point of Life Inc and India Care. Amongst its advisors, although misleadingly not listed as such, are other senior BKs such as

2018:

I would suggest next time to request for input in this page before you decide to do something. You are no longer the only one with unlimited access to this page, thus if you want to go on your own without requesting support or input... Be my

3340:

extensive materials such as Kranenborg's and Wallis. In order to cite this you need permission from the source. The caveat of "non contentious nature" will be overlooked if you continue interpreting things the way you have done in the past.

722:

Given the level of reaction that bkSimonb encountered from Green108, 195.82.106.244 and BrahmaKumaris.info, when he attempted to challenge the accuracy of a small section of the article, by citing a bk publication in support of his argument

2532:

In the case of the BKWSU, sure. If it was start specifically as a "service programme", sure. If BK present themselves at event misleading representing the so called other independent organization, even more so. Numerous citations to offer.

2427:

The section refers to fronts and business run by BKs. I think "there" in your comment should be written "their". They, the OLA teach so-called "Ancient Raja Yoga", although they mean BK Raja Yoga, at their courses and so the reference is

2239:

Reference of this appears in documents by Howells, Wallis and Whaling, and naturally in the organization's own literature and "scriptures" called the Murlis. But it has been removed by the BK operating together to re-edit this article.

3120:

have someone trying to suppress factual information. It is tantamount to don’t believe what I say is Truth to the public or to members, only accept what we approve of and what I tell you here on wikipedia. So, I pose the questions:

3940:

Thank you for you input Fred Bauder. As you stated Reliable Sources is the way to go. As you can see in the article, citations have been used and those include "beliefs and well-known assertions." As wikipedia states in his policy for

3347:

Finally, Who gave you permission to get rid of the NPOV tag? Who do you think you are? You did not place it there to begin with.. and without discussion in th e talk page ? Do you still think that Knowledge (XXG) is your BKinfo site?

4815:

user Thatcher is willing to restore the arbitration petition you made. Lastly, I requested to have the page reverted as it was before your revert.. while we wait for the process. Do not complain again that I am not willing to go the

4664:

Just to be clear I am not getting involved in 90% of the arguements going on here. If I see something clearly out of wack, like Bhramakumaris.info changing all of those mirror pages, I will change it, otherwise I won't get involved.

910:

Oh Shanti Bhai, can I kindly be pointing out that the brother has posted material published by the Prajapita Brahmakumaris Vishva Vidyalaya, that is the BKWSU to you. It is accurately Godly version and it does not matter where it is

4806:

have been quite tricky in your dealings with us (are you brahmakumaris.info?) I have been patient enough by following admins advice however, with no support from them when the time comes. I would like to show you this page as well

4094:

Tomorrow is your last day to present reliable sources for the headers in dispute. Please present them here in the talk page. I believe I answered your questions before. Take a look at the archives. You do a good job archiving this

3217:

What is the situation where for the sakes of convenience - and Luis's non-wiki demand that it is an easily downloadable resource - a clearly BKWSU produced document, such a teaching aid poster, is linked to at a many third parties

2177:

Could you provide your citations? Knowledge (XXG) is not an obscure newspaper where you can place your "juicy gossips"..As far as I am concerned you have never provided any type of reliable resource for absolutely anything in this

436:

to mediation party list. Luis, if you have a user name, please sign in properly, the use of all these IPs will leave you opn to sockpupperty and I am sure that you want the world stage to see you be above and aboard all criticism.

3161:

I removed unreferenced tag as references and citation have already been given. Please read them first please. This article has been in develpment for ver a year now. The references are all give in the bibliography, discussion and

4257:

Dear Sethie, I don't believe you are in error. I wasn't aware that those pages where about Brahma Kumaris world spiritual university as well. It seems that some of those pages are mirroring what user .244 and supporters had here

1015:

While we are at this, how about presenting data (reliable sources) to back up the header under "global expansion"? Whithout this important piece of factual information, I am afraid that paragraph will need to be deleted as well.

940:

The website holding the information does matter because it is so easy to alter text and graphics stored digital form. I am asking that any claim made on this article be backed up by a source that meets Knowledge (XXG)'s accepted

4045:

I am quite happy to use the academic sources you do Luis. Albeit, including parts you are trying to supress. But two admins have expressed a more complete understanding of policy than yours in which self-published materials are

2024:

As far as Chander. I have not quoted him. Walliss and other experts in this area with Ph.D degrees have. I have quoted them in turn. That is the way academia works and the way Knowledge (XXG) would like us to cite our reliable

1306:

Above is the previous reference to channeling in the opening paragraph. I admit to being no expert, but having practised Raja Yoga meditation as taught by the BK for some time, my own personal appraisal of it, is that it does

896:

Making further allegations such as the tape over the poster in Delhi is pointless in this context since it is yet another unverifiable claim and so doesn't prove anything here unless there is a reputable citation to prove it.

319:

The sources have been provided time and time and your attentions have been drawn to them on many occasions. Please read over the discussion archive and check the references given on the topic page, the quotation is verbatim.

3962:

That is exactly what we have been trying to do. "Non-controversial" material could become controversial if it is interpreted by editors which display animosity towards the BK religion.( As it has been proven in the previous

3652:

realized by now that going through neutral, researched, non-biased material is the way to do it. Authors need to have credentials...you know, a Ph.D or someone along those lines. Hinduism Times is not a researched material.

1499:

Thank you for your input Searchin man. I see that you are supporting your suggestion with reliable sources. Any opposition to this suggestion? If not, the day after tomorrow (11/03/06) it will be replacing the current one.

4705:

You are welcome to argue all of the above, and welcome to do so with someone else. My only concern at this point is that those articles ARE cited and it was incorrect to say they alledge it is a sect, they don't say that.

1552:. I for one would say you are accurate as I have respect for all former centrewasi's who gave years of service. Thank you Sir for stating the truth. This is the second time this is discussed and was resolved I thought: 3131:

Please keep in mind that they are using the very sources (magazines, journal and newspapers to do their PR spin and use them to gain members). I would also like to point out that some of what he cites as academic is by

3084:

forum and in doing so was advocating on his behalf. There are other active BKs on the site that have not had confrontations with the bSysop or (sp), PBKs or ExBKs. I tried my best as that seems to be a sore point with

2810:

materials were being used in a highly biased way, in a detrimental way towards the organization which they pretend to use to "inform" the public thus, it could never be considered "self-serving" but rather contentious.

3876:

You are not supposed to modify anything written by anyone. Yes, I know that old habits are hard to break, .244. You have been warned by admin Rholton before about not changing other people's input. Are you willing to

4087:

Firstable The Ip you mention is me.. riveros11. I have never denied that. See the post by TalkAbout requesting me to use only one user name. Sometimes, it is more convenient for me to use the IP rather than signing

3344:

something, you do the research first, gather the citations, bibliography etc..It is not the other way around.. The "3 day drill" gave you plenty of time to produce those (If you 've done it right the first time...)

4492:

3)User .244 is using my real name instead of my user name. He is defaming me by labeling me a "recruiter." I would like to see his proof on this. He has posted my real name and location in the talk of "Maleabroad."

323:

Please cut any pretense at what you people are doing, you are going to attempt ignore anything that does not conform to your POV whether it is referenced or not. You are playing blind to what has been provided.

4182:

Ughhhhh as someone who is mostly on the outside, watching, I'd say bramakumaris.info is up to no good. He/she archived a lot of live discussions, and changed the name of the article without going for concensus.

1797:

For this topic, the outline given by Professor Kranenborg will be closely followed: In his article "Brahma Kumaris: A new Religion?" (1999, reproduced with author's permission) Kraneborg points out 6 different

4564:

And just to be fair, both ways, how long do we have to put up with a user that refuses to listen or participate in a "middle way" discussion or involve third parties, e.g. arbitration or mediation? I am sorry

1913:

Page has been modified as per discussion. Jesselp, your additions are welcome. However, without reliable support(citations) what you added will need to be removed. Please produce those citations in this page.

328:

I have put into for a "Request for Mediation" until we can resolve the issue of whether the institution's own published material and scriptures can be used as references. I argue that, of course, they can.

2452:

Just did a search on there website, and there was no result for Ancient Raja Yoga. Why would they though, that are a management consulting company, they have clients like McD's BA, Massive international.

1004:

BTW, both of your links about the "history" of BK do not have all the extra "flavor" (for lack of a better word)that you have added. Without sources to back this up, those links will be deleted as well.

655:

As you well know, from the Brahmin point of view, based straight references to the Murlis and BKWSU publications you know I am 100% correct and it is you that are attempting to distort the truth based on

2579:

knowledge. Rather, this marked an intensification of the process, with seven-lesson courses in the group's teachings being offered to outsiders." An overview of the seven-lesson course can be found here:

1478:

I think a little more detail about the specifics of BK outreach might make this a little more clear. Walliss for example clearly delineates between local/national outreach and international initiatives.

1313:], neither in principle or practise. However as previously suggested, reference to impartial research rather than subjective opinion is a much better form of analysis in the wiki environment. Sincerely 3351:

Your question about using BK materials is strongly opposed. Ask about the NPOV tag too next time... we are just starting, my friend...please do not rush...Many more days off from work will be needed...

2857:

1752:

Below is the suggested article concerning "beliefs and practices" which will be posted tomorrow unless reliable sources are provided otherwise. Note that reliable resources are quoted when appropriate.

273:

b) Would new contributors please learn a little bit about Wiki formatting, signing and dating your contributions. Failure to do so makes it very hard for other to follow or to fulfil admin tasks. See,

5026:

Dear Appledell, Thank you for stoping by and participating. Changes have been made in the article following admin Jossi's advice. Those "weasel words" which you mentioned were removed. Best Wishes,

2277: 4866:

On May 2005, former prime minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin issued a circular indicating that the list of cults published with the 1995 parliamentary report should no longer be used to identify cults.

387:

has been put in. Please waiting until matters are resolved by third party involvement. If you persist in making yourrevesion, I will report you for 3RR. I have left warnings on your user pages.

4511:

8) Finally, and I would like to bring this up to show his character. He has threatened me to contact my employers about using Knowledge (XXG). He has published my personal information as well.

3758:

I am happy to quote the very same academic sources that you are using with regards the mediumship and channelling. Another contributor adding additional references to a topic is not vandalism.

3144:

My only agenda is to provide all the information available so that individuals can make an informed decision, if upon that they decide to continue, I give them all my good thoughts and wishes.

3115:

Now, onto this: "talkabout" and supporters would like to use materials which belong to Brahma Kumaris which by definition are not considered "reliable sources." First, I am most intrigued by

500:. They never provide written evidence that they do not believe these things, they stone wall, do not answer question posed to them and will debase a person. They also have done like wise to 3054:

Is there some way to get the above member to stick to one ID as he posts various comments and even warnings to other members making it look like it is a different member when it is one person

3708:

The problem was explained above. It does not fit in the concept of "old style research." You need to have a degree and expertise in the field. A newspaper writer does not fit that category.

2130:

Your membership is ABK (against Brahma Kumaris.) That is not moot. Just citations please, citations... don't try to find "loopholes" here. You have until Saturday before changes take place.

1193:

With regard to the BK in this matter, my own observations and it would appear also from academic research, is that relatively speaking, Bk ‘membership’ is favourably heterogeneous and fluid.

963:

I realise you are a new user but I must caution you against using direct accusations such as "you are being dishonest". This is considered a "personal attack". Please become acquainted with

2926:

nature are obviously hurting the institutional image of Brahma Kumaris which as stated in the article quoted by researchers has dome quite a bit of good work for the benefit of our society.

1116:

Whether it is central to the Brahma Kumaris religion or not need not be argued. That it is a significant and important reality of the group is a fact, and it was in the prior introduction.

861:

valid form of citation? Thankfully it isn't and I don't believe whoever wrote it is a mind-reader. It looks more like someone's own POV being presented in the article as if it were a fact.

1379:

I will repeat what Bksimonb explained before. It is not a matter of discussing whether what it has been written is the truth or not. What matters is this (from Knowledge (XXG)'s site):

239: 232: 225: 218: 211: 204: 197: 190: 183: 176: 169: 162: 155: 148: 141: 134: 127: 2727:

Unless sources are provided by Friday November 17th. The material in section "controversy" and section "Names or front organizaions" and the section "splinter groups" will be removed."

504:

in an effort to intimidate, and keep members from participating here. They feel only their PR efforts should be placed here and that no information, regardless of how true it is be

4536:

Just to be clear, I am not an admin. I would speak with admin Jossi or Mer-c about some of these charges, specifically the defaming, threat and publishing your personal information.

2731:

Please be aware that plenty of days have been giving to you before. I have not received a single reliable source from you which supports any part of the article you have written.

2695:

A point of clarification: Unless sources are provided for the unreferenced material within a reasonable amount of time, that material needs to be removed from the article. As per

1359:

in the current discussion. Please provide a statement via the organisation of via Bksimon saying it is not the case, was never the case, but until then it remains contested. PEACE

3261:

BUT it is a fair, objective and untampered with BKWSU quotation and so I cannot accept the accusations of slander and libel when such statements are the organization's own. So;

1098:

16:21, 27 October 2006 Riveros11 (Talk | contribs) (Last edit was faulty. Green108, 244 and TalkAbout, submit your reliable sources, otherwise what you are doing is vandalism.)

1450:

From World Rejection to Ambivalence: The Development of Millenarianism in the Brahma Kumaris. Wallis, John; Journal of Contemporary Religion; Oct99, Vol. 14 Issue 3, p375, 11p

4155:] on the 15th November that used to link to this page and replaced them all with identical text. I believe this is called a "forest fire". I request that this is looked into. 3729:

plenty of scholarly books available. Please take a trip to the nearest library before you attempt to modify anything in this page. Otherwise, you are heading for trouble.

1775:

Individuals drawn to the University through what they perceive as tangible benefits through their life in the "here and now" usually emotionally or physically related issues.

1227:

it and it is written in a "non bias" neutral tone which could reference the experiences of members; however, reliability of that information becomes of paramount importance.

1051: 739:

Wiki policy allows the use of an individual's or an organzations own published materials where the source is clear and the material non-contentious and non-self-aggrandizing

5059:

As you can see, the seven day course was mentioned. However, it does not have a single reliable source in it. Any one willing to support this?(with reliable sources) Best,

3852:

On a personal note, I think you should stop making prejudicial attacks on others in public. I reserve the right to render than neutral or remove them in line with policy.

508:. As the most recent evidence shows, Avyak7 not only did the first sentence (which now looks like a listing of others with no content) but deleted other sections too. 2596:

Wallis mentions the advent of a movement which may be seen as an "internal response to the University's world ambivalence;" Wallis refers to them as the Advance Party.

1001:

and of course, i find this very interesting: "the community moved to Mount Abu, mainly due to the religious resistance to its activities in Pakistan." Sources, please?

2319:

There is no need to include the sentence about the difference between BK faith and classical Raja Yoga in the introduction. It can be mentioned under "controversies."

2284:

It is also an important difference to classic Raja Yoga and so central to BK faith and practise that it should be highlighted at the beginning of the article as before

307:

Hinduism but going its own way.” He is just someone who understands nothing of the Brahma Kumaris. The Brahma Kumaris practice karma and bhakti for the achievement of

1787:

Individuals who feel belong to the spiritual path, however; their involvement with the University grew out of sense of disillusionment with conventional religiosity.

705:

and post everything you want there and ask for documents too. Knowledge (XXG) is not the place to voice your animosity... oh yeah.. time to revert the page... Best,

3487:

and material from BKWSU. Just because material has been copied or quoted by other websites, it does not in some manner sully the original source! That is laughable.

4844: 3171:

and then slapping tags on the article because they are too lazy or disinterested to actually read them. Please do first and then come back with questions. Thanks.

3105:

In other cult related articles I note that the documents that have been obtained have been used and to suppress such information is simply not good public policy.

2590:

From World Rejection to Ambivalence:The development in Millenarianism in the Brahma Kumaris." by John Wallis. Journal of Contemporary Religion, Vol.14,N 3, 1999

246: 3513:

clearly states that according to Knowledge (XXG) policy self-published material is fine as I always said. What is the problem in that? e.g. what about this one?

2494:. We are documenting the BKWSU and how it works. Its works through status by assocation and creating such fronts. Expert opinion quoted by BK Luis supports this. 1640:

On their website also they state " Suggested donation : £85 for accommodation only ... ..Donations welcome... ...There will be a donation box at the retreat."

4128:

Regarding the citing of sources originating from personal websites, can everyone familiarise with point 2 made by Jossi in the now archived discussion section ‘

4091:

However, since you brought the subject on sockpuppets I have a little request for admins to take a look at it. I will make sure admins will take a look at this.

2474:

It was lunched at Royal College of Physicians, London, The Janki Foundation is about supporting research and awareness in the field of health and spirituality.

1793:

Individuals originally involved due to instrumental reasons, however; "gradually discovered that the ideas are true." (Luhrmann, 1994:124 as quoted by Wallis.)

2407:

Stop being be silly, just because the OLA was co founded by a Bk that does not make it a front. go to there website they are an management consulting company.

2205:

This wiki page is about BKWSU, there does not need to have so much information on the PBK'S, it only needs to be mentioned. This section should be removed JP

4746:

Below is the exchange I had with admin Jossi, it is unfortunately that he is not here to follow up on this at this moment, but perhaps he will a bit later...

1694:

Plus there is no evidence that they are front names of the Organizations. There websites has no Reference to the bkwsu or are they Registered to the Bkwsu*.

4718:

Dear Sethie, Thank you for clarifying. Let me ask you this. Since you are not an admin, what is your interest in this article? or in this discussion? Best,

1044:(Reverted page vandalized by IP from Indonesia. Please intorduce yourself in the article talk page before making changes, otherwise your IP may be blocked.) 3099:

I can see that Avyakt7 and the Team do not realise that if the world at large only accepted “Academic Reports” that the world would be void of information.

1601:

starting ::Saturday, thus next Tuesday we will have new content under "Beliefs and Practices" supported by reliable sources. Your input is :: appreciated.

270:

a) Would contributors please follow WIkipedia convention and always place new discussion points at the bottom of page. Use the + sign above if in doubt.

1769:"Reflexive Traditions NRMs and the 'Negotiation' of Identity" recognizes four different types of members in Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Univeristy: 792:

you do not know what is correct. Check in other pages... Your argument about "deity stuff" and "inequalities" is completely irrelevant. Best Wishes,

1376:

My account name is riveros11, someone (it wasn't me) took the "initiative" to add a nickname to that account, thus; avyakt7. It is the same account.

4488:

1)I have asked a simple question to user .244 which (he) has ignored. Is he user brahmakumaris.info? Likewise user TalkAbout has not responded yet.

1132:

part in many members joining, From today right back to the beginning. So it is a matter of fact that they believe in such spiritualistic phenomena.

868:" - This was addressed in your last post but the citations were not up to Knowledge (XXG)'s standards of verifiability for reasons explained above, 2734:

I will leave the "7 day course" to the end... in the meantime, the section "beliefs and practices" will be re-written as per Jossi's instructions.

1989:

Given your quoted academic use of Jagdish Chander's book "Adi Dev", does that mean that it is accepted by the other editors as a citable reference?

2648:

I came to take a look at this article after one of the involved editors placed a comment in my talk page. I have tagged several sections with the

118: 4821:

As far as I am concerned it is you who is unwilling to do it. Perhaps you feel that you can continue "free and clear" now? I seriously doubt it.

4761:

I have placed a note per Jossi's instruction in the talk page and performed the changes yesterday. I will wait for your answer on this, Sethie.

742: 335: 4507:

7) User. 244 has blanked his talk page. He was advised by an admin not to do it before. He is not willing to listen. See admin Mer-c talk page

4159:

I suspect that user brahmakumaris.info is a sockpuppet of 244 based on the name similar to his website of the same name. Can this be confirmed?

4541:

I asked Jossi to look into the #6 and I have not recieved a response from him, so I think we need to look elsewhere for that specific action.

4490:

2) User .244 even though was blocked previously, still continues with his old behavior and is modifying this page without further discussion.

3596:

Pulled into a state of intense meditation, he felt someone entering him ... Taking over his physical senses, the Being started to speak ...

1063: 311:

They are a spiritual organization like the Hare Krishna that tried to spread their beliefs to the West. White racism will not be tolerated!

4496:

4) User .244 keeps defaming me. User Maleabroad has been blocked before for editing this page and insulting users. See admin Addhoc's reply

1935:

Same holds true for "achievements" and "names of front organizations." Reliable sources are needed according to Knowledge (XXG) policies.

4809:

What are you trying to do? You know that you will get some people upset with those comments about BK and Hinduism. Here is your complaint

4594:

If an organization publishes extreme beliefs, and even academics report them in papers the other editors reference, e.g. their founder "

3957:

3. The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

3414:

3. The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

3111:

I travel and taken photos and have submitted some things that involved high profile individuals, checked sources and had them published.

4728:

I thank you for asking, and the only response I feel pulled to make in this moment is that I will let my actions speak for themselves.

2013:

It is interesting to note how none of your ex-bk supporters did not post their agreement. I wonder what is the matter with your team...

1521:

in relationship with this header. I would like to put them together if not enough material is found to support them of being separate.

4709:

I've done the whole "reliable sources" argueing back and forth thing and have no interest in debating that with you or anyone else.

3983:

Well, that is two admins against you BK Luis both stating the same thing that according to policy, self-published materials are fine.

3255:

Look! The Science proud European Yadavas will destroy one another in this international Atomic War (Mahabharata) like 5,000 years ago

2334:

exist on a rolling 5 to 10 years even since this failure, but it is a key element to understanding BK teachings and modus operandi.

278: 5008:. Only two sources have been cited (leaving aside the question of how authoritative they are). Surely, that can't justify the term " 3767:

It is unless you discuss it previously. Otherwise, I have plenty of things to add myself too.Of course, plenty of reliable sources.

741:

Personally, I considered God Shiva and Lekhraj Kirpalani's Murli scriptures likewise acceptable which is what the mediation request

4262:

Am I supposed to discuss on those pages as well? Should those pages have the same content as this page? Look forward to your reply.

2117:

You either provide reliable cited resources by experts on the field or you simply cannot edit the article here. It is very simple.

4515:

9) User .244 was caught misrepresenting (lying) about his membership to the antagonistic site brahmakumaris.info which he denied.

632: 4645:

I hear your pain and I don't engage in big abstract dialogues. Pick a specific point, and if I feel the pull I will discuss it.

1731:

And you have not given any evidence for bkwsu not taking cash from other people as there is clear evidence for the contrary jp

964: 628:

Dear .244, I wonder sometimes if you ever wrote a term paper? I mean, academia stuff, that sort of thing which is needed here.

472:, ET ALL Riveros, Avyakt7...etc...etc. I personally am feeling as though there is a concerted effort by the above member of the 4887:

Also note that there are assertions made in that section that have no sources, or that are clearly not appropriate to include:

2722:

I will follow Jossi's advice on giving you (.244 and "bkinfo" and TalkAbout) some additional days to provide reliable sources.

931:

Dear anonymous user, first of all, please sign your posts with four tildas ~~~~ so that we can address you as a name or number.

374:

The organizations own published material including teaching aids and scriptures are perfectly adequate sources for inclusion.

3954:

2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor.

3912:

See admin page of Fred Bauder. Admin Jossi has given already a path for us to follow. When are you going to understand that?

3410:

2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor.

1176:], you too, despite citing all the independent references you could muster in a protracted argument, ultimately found no joy. 101: 1411:

The story of the Brahma Kumaris begins with its founder Dada Lekhraj, a retired diamond merchant, who had frequent visions

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I will not submit to anyone, by threats, intimidation, harassment or a concerted campaign.....and I do not believe you are

5016:", unless further evidence can be submitted. How much time should I allow? I think a week is reasonable. More to follow... 4859: 4802:

Dear .244, I wrote in your talk page that I was willing to "negotiate" with you after I received an "invitation" from you.

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Reflective Traditions: New Religious Movements and the 'Negotiation' of Identity. Wallis, John; University of Warwick, UK.

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concentrate on presenting reliable sources on or before this Friday; otherwise those sections in question will be erased.

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I would also like to say that on several occasions I have tried to gain back his membership via the contact page to the

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If there is going to be two dialogue instead of tit-for-tat attacks, I am happy to engage in it. What more can I state?

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The quoted above will be edited (in the main page) as this is inaccurate and does this does not apply to this time now.

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With respect to the last, I refer to the easily referenced and verifiable Sakar Murli dated 11/02/2003 where it says, "

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individuals looking for "self development" or "self-spirituality", there is a spiritual quest behind their association.

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My experience with wikipedia is that those who don't play by the rules DO get stopped, sometimes it just takes awhile.

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My question to both of you Jossi and Sethie is, how long do we (Brahma Kumaris) have to put up with an user like this?

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Finally, you may want to take a look at this link. It seems to me that there are several of those mirroring wikipedia.

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Even though experiences are important, by itself those do not make a reliable source. Hope you can see my point here.

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are not reliable sources. Need to be researched materials by experts in the field. You have failed to provide those.

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Wait a minute there, my friend! Let me copy what Jossi wrote and what is meant based on the questions I asked above:

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As it is so far none of the links added to the paragraphs in dispute do not meet the requirement of RELIABLE SOURCE.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Brahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University&diff=83828275&oldid=83729149

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I am sorry but you are plain wrong in your prejudicial interpretation. Self-published sources are wholly acceptable

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So, having tried that, the next step I am going to take is to put in a Request for Arbitration over the same issue.

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holistic health company, and sell raw chocolate bars. Would they also be considered apart of the bkwsu bodies too?

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What you added maliciously up there is not the complete truth. You see, you need the link: Here is the link to it:

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Shiva first possessed Kirpalani and started to channel through him. This is distinctly different from "inspired".

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The mediumistic channelling of Lekhraj Kirpalani through a BK follower called Gulzar by way of speach and actions

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The idea being that the yagya should be built upon pure money only, please ask if you need further clarification

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and other such activity. They will go to no end to intimidate people. There is a clear pattern developing here.

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The direct possession of Lekhraj Kirpalani by the entity since named after the Hindu God Shiva, aka Shiva Baba.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_and_dubious_sources_in_articles_about_themselves

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Also only one statement is addressed by these links. Here is a breakdown of the claims made in the paragraph.

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reduced to the minimum or maybe deleted for lack of notability. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

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re: meeting BapDada (the combined form of "God" Shiva and the spirit of the deceased Lekraj Kirpalani) via a

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provide a reliable source for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."

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even though they were non-contention, referenced with clear academic or journalistic citations and positive.

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article will include all significant viewpoints as described in secondary, reliable and published sources.

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The mediumistic channelling of this entity through a BK follower called Gulzar by way of speach and actions

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agree to basing future article development on the extensive fly on the wall research of impartial academia.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Adhyatmik_Ishwariya_Vishwa_Vidyalaya&diff=next&oldid=83787757

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link is meant to be detrimental on the image of BK... as the editor is hoping to accomplish. Best Wishes,

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The movement led by Lekhraj moved from Hyderabad to Karachi and then to their current location in Mt.Abu.

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call them "pointless and repetitive...." or discussions) that has activity going on in the last 14 days.

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which has no university affiliation and that CESNUR is seen by many as a Cult apologists organisation.

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If more then one member of the bkwsu decided to start up something together this would count as a front?

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chance to put everything I find important in less than 500 words, I need time. You do not run my time.

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I have written about politicians and have not had such issues as a request to verify it with academics.

3034: 1965: 889:" - This is another unverifiable claim. It is clearly someone's POV being stated as if it were a fact. 274: 3102:

Most of wikipedia articles accept what is written with citation by magazines, journals and newspapers.

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discussion, am I correct to say that gives others the green light to re-institute it into the topic?

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Therefore their knowledge has become modified according to necessity in order to sustain their faith.

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Requests for mediation on Avyakt7 and TEAM Removing the Reference heading from Bibliograpy/References

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considering that sufficient evidence has been compiled here and elsewhere to establish a heading on

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tag, as the material in these sections are not supported by any reliable source as required by our

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Social and psychological problems faced by ex-followers including two suicides within one family.

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Janki foundation will be removed it again created by a bk, however has nothing to do with BKWSU.

571:: Marat Shterin, James Richardson, and Eileen Barker, "The Western Anti-Cult Movement in Russia," 336:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Brahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University

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Your contribution to make this article a researched and neutral one is appreciated. Best Wishes,

4447:(Reverted page- Vandalism again by user Maleabroad - placed a last warning tag in his talk page.) 2153:

preferable, as they refer to current affairs according to Wiki policy they would be acceptable.

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what they mean is... lol. Can u imagine if this happen to Buddha or Jesus. it would be so funny.

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the book of revelation being précised on the opening pre-amble of the wiki entry on Christianity.

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waiting for academic references are required where public or institutional records already exist.

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In order to continue with the pattern of editorial changes in this page, we will go back to the

1330:"Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as "impure"." 4779:

I will say that I like to give 1-2 weeks before erasing a sentence, and that is how I operate.

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The French source cited lists it as a cult, not a sect, hence I have changed it back to cult.

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acceptable. Two admins have corroborated this policy. I am receiving a complete blanking from

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Now into the part which I think is the heart of the words you conveniently quoted from Jossi:

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I am getting a bit sick of folks coming along, knowing absolutely nothing about the subject, '

3057:? I’ve noted that he will leave postings on his talk page as 72.91.4.91 which is a little odd 3048: 1582: 1490: 1314: 1209: 826: 729: 633:

http://www.crusadewatch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=96&Itemid=41

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The controversy section is misquoting the source. Please take into account this information:

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Thank you.. and now into the changes. I apologize for this lenghty explanation. Best Wishes,

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was and let's work sentence by sentence. That is collaboration. That is how we arrived here.

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with having some thing written about me and told that that the attacking hadn't begun yet by

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You seem to have a difficulty in understanding the difference between general material from

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I will leave it up to the admin to decide what they meant Luis. Sorry, is not your own site

1066:, and many of us consider ourselves newcomers even after months (or years) of contributing. 4949: 4853:), published a list of purported cults compiled by the general information division of the 1969:

the BKWSU IT team to produce even more for inclusion - only for the request to be ignored.

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7 day course, achievements, controversy, names of front organizations, splinter groups, etc

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Placed NPOV tag again. The way it was before which originally was placed by admin RHOLTON.

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Dear .244, the same 3RR holds true for you. So, be careful.. or I will report you. Best,

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The mediumistic channelling of this entity through Kirpalani by way of speach and actions

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Reender Kranenborg, Free University of Amsterdam. "Brahma Kumaris: A New Religion?", 1999

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I leave the edit to remove the non-compliant material in the hands of involved editors.

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Meaning of Om Shanti has been changed, it was not accurate, close but not close enough.

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hug, is an extraordinarily distinguishing aspect of the Brahma Kumaris spiritual life.

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Is wikipedia going to apply the policy that only academic material sources be accepted?

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Suggested wording by "searching man" replaced the current one under "Global Expansion."

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Let me ask you this question: User 195.82.106.244 are you the user brahmakumaris.info?

2696: 2659: 281:. If you are having difficulties, go find an admin to help you and have a play in the 3951:

1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources.

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1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources.

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I am perfectly happy with that. I have always wholly accept that any conjecture from

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I want to discuss the re-institution of the references to channelling and mediumship.

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verifiable. Do you acknowledge that? thus suitable for Knowledge (XXG). Best Wishes,

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Its also not true to say the page is going into arbitration. I tried to get BK Luis

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OK. I'd like to start by quoting the admin's repetition of Knowledge (XXG) Pollicy;

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An article does not require to be a slavish collation of copy and paste quotations!

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All other bullet points are without sources, or the source provided is a dead link.

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I added "alleged" to your accusation as it is not proven and otherwise prejudicial.

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While admonishing others, as if we were small children in need of scolding, with a

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of firsthand experience, more than ten years of firsthand experience to draw on.

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I think so. It follows BKWSU self-published material such as Adi Dev perfectly.

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It seems that your are back with your animosity again. S here I go one more time:

4818:"middle way discussion or involve third parties, e.g. arbitration or mediation." 4780: 4729: 4710: 4685: 4666: 4646: 4566: 4547: 4310: 4275: 4241: 4186: 4121:

Just to once again try and qualify the word ‘reliable'’ in relation to ‘source’:

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may not meet Knowledge (XXG) until it is further further proven. I am sure that

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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I am looking at the following revision made by Brahma Kumari Luis Riveros, aka

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shudras or 'impure souls' meaning those who have not completed the 7 day course

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Do you want to discuss the difficulties you have in accepting these comments?

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which will meet Knowledge (XXG) standards and to collaborate in this article.

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Dear TalkAbout, Good to "see" you here again... Please spend some time here:

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Get over it. Would you? This is Knowledge (XXG). This is not your bkinfo site.

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Previous discussion has now archived as page grew beyond guideline size, see

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oxford leadership academy has the global retreat center web address present.

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Questionable advertisement of relationship with United Nations Organisation

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User .244 you asked for arbitration, why are you taking so long to respond?

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Hope you get the point right this time about admin Jossi's words. Thanks

5076:

Circulaire du 27 mai 2005 relative à la lutte contre les dérives sectaires

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Bogus Vandalism accusations, dishonest revisions and revision messages by

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self-published and so does not exclude any materials to be use from there?

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it is and it is concurrent with the same academic resources you are using

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I almost forgot to add the policy in Knowledge (XXG) about verifiability:

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http://www.reference.com/browse/Brahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University

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No, this is not agreeable unless you have reliable sources. Best Wishes,

768:

is he so chooses. Other wise you are creating a system of inequalities,

492:. It would appear that anyone willing to participate on this article is 4924:

Rape and physical violence from families and partners of Brahma Kumaris.

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rigorous review that academic papers are subject to prior to publishing.

3265:

My understanding of the above quoted Wiki policy is that quotations from

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As Dr. Howell points out to underline the uniqueness of the University:

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http://www.brahmakumaris.org.uk/sites/event.asp?detail=21070&id=6249

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Donation box's are freely available for anyone to place money in them.

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Please see discussion about this on the archives and discussions under

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Documented incidents of child abuse within the organisation brushed...

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helpfully pictorized by the organization in a promotional video here,

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of us were newcomers once, even those careful or lucky enough to have

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No sources. Should be deleted if a reliable source is not forthcoming

3517: 3133: 1675:) * Oxford Leadership Academy * Self Management Leadership (SML)( 1055: 1054:, but also through the often anonymous contributions of many curious 3213:

if we are to avoid aan non-neutral Eurocentric or even racist view.

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Please remember the key word: Reliable Sources under Knowledge (XXG)

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Dr. Julia D. Howell. Changing Meanings of Religious Pluralism, 2003

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Now this is, a) not true and b) another bogus vandalism accusation

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User .244 please stop modifying my written words in this talk page

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I use the phrase "weasel words" as they are defined by wikipedia

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All this as the page is in the middle of going into arbitration?

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Requests for mediation in the efforts to intimidate by BKWSU TEAM

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reduced to the minimum or maybe deleted for lack of notability.

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http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//4/4f/Kalpa-vriksha.jpg

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Thanks for stepping up and tending to this issue, both of you.

2148:

Use of repeated organized physical violence by BKs against PBKs

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Avyakt7 and BKWSU TEAM acts of intimidation on new contributors

4812:

that I have refused arbitration. You know it is not true. Here

4130:

User .244 (alleged) misinterpretation of Admin Jossi's writing

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a) Whether Hinduism Times is notable enough as a reference. -

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User .244 (alleged) misinterpretation of Admin Jossi's writing

3241:(in a recent blog article on the BKWSU proving it is current)? 3089: 2597: 1050:. Knowledge (XXG) improves through not only the hard work of 32: 4916:

The sources is a personal page and thus not a reliable source

4900:

The sources is a personal page and thus not a reliable source

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under "Foundation Course in Raja Yoga Meditation." and here:

1046:

This is a clear violation for allowing people to participate

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light they will be considered libel if not cited adequately.

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after my IP. here is a link of contributions of that IP, FYI

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http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1995/5/1995-5-02.shtml

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If so will it also be applied to all other articles as well?

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the source where it could be easily accessed. Best Wishes,

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BKWSU are a registered Charity - they run on donations.

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PLEASE READ THIS. The article will continue to be modified

4458:

What he has done is remove all the contributions made by

3564:

are copies of reliable sources which I have not made up.

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The mediumistic channelling of Shiva through BK followers

1401:

expert source (Professors). Thank you. Avyakt7/Riveros11

542:

There is a similar situation going on on the PBK article:

4384:

User 195.82.106.244 are you the user brahmakumaris.info?

3465: 2076:

anyone without specialist knowledge" (see policy notes).

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Independent academic references could be the way forward

496:

being personally attacked by the organisation and their

288:

c) NPA tags belong on user's pages not discussion pages.

24:

Talk:Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University/Archive07

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My answer is, find someone else to help out with this!

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As Jossi stated here it goes the "official" statement:

2500:

How do you qualify it has nothing to do with the BKWSU?

916:

Brother, you are being dishonest about godly knowledge.

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as on two occasions here on wikipedia page I have been

355:

Dear .244, Please Make sure you understand this policy:

3678:

I'd say it is and these are the University's own words

3645:

Admin Jossi just suggested to keep our editions using

3239:

http://www.ballofdirt.com/media/3554/27112/202412.html

1425:

of the BK movement in India remains heavily female."''

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now the Brahma Kumaris tend to try and avoid the issue

783:

Please get acquainted on how to write a research paper

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Needs to be researched data by experts in this field.

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with the BK core theology largely on their own terms.

836:

Confluence age - response to now-archived discussion

4569:

but it cuts both ways, it takes "two hands" to clap.

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I might point out that Avyakt7 uses his own website

4204:

Please note the name of the article has not changed

3904:

User .244 new tactic: to get other admins attention

2947:Thank you for your attention to this. Best Wishes, 1396:

History "to be" unless reliable sources are offered

701:requesting are completely off topic. You can go to 624:.244 continues his discrediting campaign against BK 2572:Otherwise, this is the way it will look tomorrow: 1956:Best Wishes, 14:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC) avyakt7 1556:. I can live with the bolded sentence. Thank you. 1231:experiences with BK.Thus, I keep them for myself. 950:If you need any further clarification please read 108: 4788:Thank you for your help and advice Sethie. Best, 4153:User brahmakuris.info has edited all these pages 3683:b) Whether the quotation is accurately copied. - 2478:http://www.jankifoundation.org/about_us/index.php 1960:The BKWSU IT team's response to Mediation request 4286:Thank you, Sethie! Would redirect this one too? 3169:UTTERLY IGNORING THE REFERENCES AND BIBLIOGRAPHY 1022:if you do not present reliable sources. 3 days. 5002:as a cult". Please can you justify that term - 4849:France's 1995 parliamentary commission report ( 3667:There are two possible areas of objection here; 3148:My apologies for the length of the reply. PEACE 3096:and other journalistic articles are acceptable. 2827:Thank you and look forward to hearing from you. 866:At first it was taught 50 years for destruction 4982:follow up with your suggestions. Best wishes, 4845:Parliamentary Commission about Cults in France 4149:Strange activity on pages linking to this page 3233:http://pics.livejournal.com/bkwsu/pic/00001s93 2585:http://www.brahmakumaris.com/Courses/index.htm 4274:No, I have reverted it back to the redirect. 3533:source (or a book, a scholarly article, etc.) 3289:It that clearly accepted by all contributors? 3226:http://www.shivbaba.org.pl/en/?name=galeria-3 2699:the burden is on the editor adding material. 2247:There would appear to be 5 elements to this; 1959: 998:God." Sources? Note the use of weasel words. 8: 4500:5)See this link about user .244 intentions: 3280:any clearly referenced BKWSU Murli scripture 2581:http://www.bkwsu.org/whatwedo/courses/fcirym 1281:(Duality Rules,... apparently not logged in) 3277:BKWSU and senior faculty members' websites, 2662:policy. I also tagged one section with the 2587:under "foundation courses in meditation." 921:Baba tell us to have a clean heart always. 4863:) with the help of cult-watching groups. 4584:over this which is the source of dispute. 3274:Jagdish Chander's widely published works, 529:I would rather die standing than kneeling 432:Added BK supporter and Riveros associate 5068: 4948:That is an opinion and in violation of 4398:User TalkAbout: following steps of .244 3840:What is your object to their inclusion? 3074:http://avyakt7.livejournal.com/463.html 1870: 1443: 1433:As expressed by Nesbitt and Henderson, 3996:Basic beliefs or well-known assertions 3187:Self published Material from the BKWSU 3082:http://brahmakumaris.info/indexbb.html 1548:for you input into telling the honest 51:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4388:Looking forward to your reply. Best, 2388:if the expert said so then it is so. 1669:http://www.livingvalueseducation.org/ 279:Knowledge (XXG):Tutorial_(Talk_pages) 7: 4600:different voice speaking through him 3529:Please do not paraphrase me. Thanks 3434:site should be removed, accordingly. 2600:Visit site for further information. 2329:40 years Confluence Age and the PBKs 1667:* Living Values Education Program ( 2157:Is this agreeable to other editors? 965:Knowledge (XXG):No_personal_attacks 4375:Is user .244 = brahmakumaris.info? 3578:Someone entering Lekhraj Kirpalani 2520:JPJP 12:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 1095:I begin by quoting the changelog: 560:BKWSU as dangerous Sect - citation 31: 3634:Clarify what those are then Luis. 2410:it will be removed... again.... 1649:http://www.bkwsu.com/whoweare/faq 1513:Fundamental Beliefs and Practices 1357:Fundamental Beliefs and Practices 4445:The message he has left says, " 3284:are also therefore acceptable. 1689:http://www.soulpowerseminars.com 1652:How is the organisation funded? 112: 36: 2414:http://www.oxfordleadership.com 1677:http://www.oxfordleadership.com 789:http://en.wikipedia.org/Judaism 4851:Unofficial English translation 3432:http:///www.brahmakumaris.info 1188:subsequent loss of that faith. 1028:.... As always.. Best Wishes, 1: 5064:03:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC) 5050:03:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC) 5031:03:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC) 5021:21:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC) 4987:09:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC) 4976:03:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC) 4883:02:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC) 4830:20:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 4793:02:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 4784:00:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 4771:19:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC) 4733:05:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 4723:02:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 4714:00:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 4700:20:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC) 4689:16:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC) 4670:16:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC) 4650:16:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC) 4630:09:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC) 4551:22:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC) 4528:22:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC) 4468:01:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC) 4419:14:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC) 4393:22:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC) 4363:20:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC) 4314:01:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC) 4300:01:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC) 4288:http://en.wikipedia.org/BKIVV 4279:23:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC) 4269:22:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC) 4245:21:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC) 4190:16:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC) 4171:14:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC) 4139:15:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC) 4070:23:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 4022:17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 4004:17:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3971:16:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3935:16:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3920:15:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3898:13:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3865:09:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3775:21:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3745:03:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3715:13:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3701:09:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3659:13:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3622:03:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3612:22:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 3572:21:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3555:01:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 3448:21:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 3360:17:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 3319:http://www.brahmakumaris.info 3299:09:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 3210:http://www.brahmakumaris.info 3206:http://www.brahmakumaris.info 3181:23:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 3153:20:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC) 2999:20:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC) 2952:20:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC) 2872:16:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC) 2855:http://www.brahmakumaris.info 2835:16:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC) 2781:15:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC) 2755:03:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC) 2742:02:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC) 2713:19:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 2691:03:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC) 2639:18:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 2623:17:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2608:17:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2559:17:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2538:22:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 2506:16:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2484:16:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2459:17:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2435:16:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2422:16:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2393:16:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2376:16:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2371:same spiritual organization. 2359:16:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2343:15:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2324:13:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC) 2314:15:31, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2299:15:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 2214:Absolutely right on that one. 1974:accept third party mediation? 1687:) * Soul Power Seminars ( 1431:Brahma Kumaris World Outreach 952:Knowledge (XXG):Verifiability 703:http://www.brahmakumaris.info 531:.....With great regret/PEACE 4992:Weasel words in this article 3998:" are fine by me. Thank you. 3818:So where does that leave us? 3583:Is this a citable reference? 3485:http://www.bramakumaris.info 2546:The Mantra: Reliable Sources 2224:18:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC) 2193:16:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC) 2166:15:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC) 2138:16:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC) 2085:15:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC) 2041:14:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC) 1999:11:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC) 1943:10:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 1922:10:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC) 1819:Ideas about the World Cycle: 1761:17:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC) 1748:13:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC) 1720:20:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC) 1673:http://www.livingvalues.net/ 1659:Names or Front Organizations 1647:Also see the bkwsu FAQ page 1615:12:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC) 1586:14:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC) 1575:02:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC) 1561:01:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC) 1539:18:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC) 1529:15:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC) 1508:18:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC) 1494:15:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC) 1406:02:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC) 1391:13:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC) 1364:20:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC) 1318:13:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC) 1279:00:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC) 1258:19:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC) 1213:14:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC) 1160:06:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC) 1079:17:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC) 1033:14:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC) 981:04:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC) 905:15:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 830:21:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 817:10:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 807:01:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 797:01:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 778:21:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC) 749:00:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 733:20:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC) 710:12:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC) 680:04:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC) 649:00:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC) 618:00:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 554:18:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC) 536:18:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC) 460:01:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 442:00:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC) 412:00:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC) 392:20:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC) 366:20:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC) 346:20:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC) 297:20:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC) 264:Knowledge (XXG):Article_size 245: 238: 231: 224: 219:September 2007 - August 2009 217: 210: 203: 196: 189: 182: 175: 168: 161: 154: 147: 140: 133: 126: 111: 4482:To admins Jossi and Sethie: 2598:http://www.shivbaba.org.pl/ 1917:Thank you and Best Wishes, 5094: 4842: 4486:Please note the following: 3930:or well-known assertions. 2230:Channelling and mediumship 1828:The Practice of Raja Yoga: 1311:involve spirit channeling 3117:“Supporters of the Faith” 3070:http://www.godhascome.com 2403:Oxford Leadership Academy 2010:Glad to see you are back! 1809:Ideas about Human Beings: 1644:(half way down the page) 1369:Response to Duality Rules 1109:with firsthand sources. 644:Can we trust you? Best, 3696:So what is the problem? 3047:aka et all and possibly 2593:The Advance Party (PBK) 1791:Interpretative drifters: 1681:http://www.relaxkids.com 275:Knowledge (XXG):Tutorial 226:August 2009 - March 2010 191:Late Dec 2006 - Feb 2007 4860:Renseignements généraux 4604:God descending into him 4202:This is not accurate. ' 3306: 3140:documents they cite. 2718:Response to Admin Jossi 1248:Knowledge (XXG)'s rules 1064:avoided common mistakes 283:Knowledge (XXG):Sandbox 258:Discussion now archived 240:March 2012 - March 2013 233:March 2010 - March 2012 205:July 2007 - August 2007 4855:French National Police 3088:I also think that the 2796:Dear Jossi and Sethie, 2644:Improving this article 2294:Your comments please. 2201:Different page for PBK 1766:Beliefs and Practices: 1263:Riveros11 and Avyakt7, 1070:the way we do things. 1052:more dedicated members 882:" - Not addressed yet 875:" - Not addressed yet 315:Requests for mediation 198:March 2007 - June 2007 5012:"? I'll amend it to " 4843:Further information: 3466:http://www.godhascome 3443:Best Wishes, avyakt7 2677:for some guidelines. 1966:request for mediation 1909:Beliefs and Practices 1837:Different Activities: 1685:http://www.relax7.com 1460:Universtiy, Australia 385:Request for Mediation 49:of past discussions. 1785:Spiritual searchers: 1679:) * Relax Kids ( 1373:Dear Duality Rules, 1219:Dear Duality Rules, 149:Sept 2006 - Oct 2006 142:Aug 2006 - Sept 2006 135:July 2006 - Aug 2006 128:Nov 2005 - July 2006 4835:Controversy section 4557:Policy and progress 2443:ello 195.82.106.244 1773:Instrumental users: 1517:Please submit your 1483:Suggested revision: 873:and 50 for creation 773:combine them. PEACE 18:Talk:Brahma Kumaris 5037:Changes in Article 1087:Neutrality reprise 302:Separate religion? 4974: 4881: 3553: 3512: 3252:statements like " 2997: 2870: 2779: 2711: 2689: 1683:) * Relax 7 ( 1617:Avyakt7/Riveros11 1010:back to the drill 252: 251: 107: 106: 61: 60: 55:current talk page 22:(Redirected from 5085: 5078: 5073: 4966: 4873: 4473:Time for changes 4264:Thank you. Best 3885:month archives.) 3783:Jossie also said 3617:Many objections 3607:Any objections? 3588:Hinduism Today; 3545: 3504: 2989: 2862: 2771: 2703: 2681: 2671: 2665: 2657: 2651: 2467:Janki Foundation 1902: 1897: 1891: 1886: 1880: 1875: 1802:Ideas about God: 1738:Reliable Sources 1519:reliable sources 1471: 1467: 1461: 1457: 1451: 1448: 277:and especially, 212:Late August 2007 116: 109: 85: 63: 62: 40: 39: 33: 27: 5093: 5092: 5088: 5087: 5086: 5084: 5083: 5082: 5081: 5074: 5070: 5057: 5039: 4994: 4847: 4837: 4800: 4740: 4682: 4559: 4484: 4475: 4429: 4400: 4377: 4151: 4037:aka sockpuppet 4030: 3927: 3906: 3723: 3580: 3309: 3231:the same here; 3189: 2720: 2669: 2667:cleanup-rewrite 2663: 2655: 2649: 2646: 2631: 2566: 2564:Rest of Article 2548: 2469: 2405: 2331: 2232: 2203: 2150: 1962: 1950: 1929: 1911: 1906: 1905: 1898: 1894: 1887: 1883: 1876: 1872: 1779:Eclectic users: 1740: 1692: 1661: 1635: 1629: 1515: 1475: 1474: 1468: 1464: 1458: 1454: 1449: 1445: 1398: 1371: 1328: 1276:221.191.248.194 1089: 1042:Here is proof: 1040: 1023: 991: 840: 785: 759:By placing the 757: 720: 626: 580: 562: 516:. I would also 467: 383:What ever, the 317: 304: 260: 81: 37: 29: 28: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 5091: 5089: 5080: 5079: 5067: 5056: 5053: 5038: 5035: 5034: 5033: 4993: 4990: 4980: 4960: 4959: 4955: 4954: 4953: 4952: 4943: 4942: 4936: 4935: 4934: 4933: 4927: 4926: 4920: 4919: 4918: 4917: 4911: 4910: 4904: 4903: 4902: 4901: 4895: 4894: 4868: 4841: 4836: 4833: 4799: 4796: 4775: 4756: 4739: 4736: 4727: 4704: 4693: 4681: 4678: 4677: 4676: 4675: 4674: 4673: 4672: 4657: 4656: 4655: 4654: 4653: 4652: 4637: 4635: 4634: 4633: 4632: 4627:195.82.106.244 4620: 4619: 4618: 4617: 4610: 4609: 4608: 4607: 4589: 4588: 4587: 4586: 4573: 4572: 4571: 4570: 4558: 4555: 4554: 4553: 4543: 4542: 4538: 4537: 4532: 4514: 4510: 4506: 4503: 4499: 4495: 4491: 4489: 4487: 4480: 4474: 4471: 4465:195.82.106.244 4455: 4454: 4428: 4422: 4399: 4396: 4376: 4373: 4372: 4371: 4370: 4369: 4368: 4367: 4366: 4365: 4360:195.82.106.244 4346: 4345: 4344: 4343: 4342: 4341: 4340: 4339: 4323: 4321: 4320: 4319: 4318: 4317: 4316: 4293: 4292: 4291: 4290: 4254: 4253: 4252: 4251: 4250: 4249: 4248: 4247: 4230: 4229: 4228: 4227: 4226: 4225: 4224: 4223: 4212: 4211: 4210: 4209: 4208: 4207: 4195: 4194: 4193: 4192: 4183: 4176: 4174: 4173: 4165: 4161: 4160: 4150: 4147: 4146: 4145: 4144: 4143: 4142: 4141: 4126: 4122: 4113: 4111: 4110: 4109: 4108: 4105: 4099: 4098: 4097: 4096: 4092: 4089: 4082: 4081: 4080: 4079: 4073: 4072: 4067:195.82.106.244 4062: 4061: 4054: 4053: 4048: 4047: 4042: 4041: 4029: 4026: 4011: 4009: 4008: 4007: 4006: 4001:195.82.106.244 3988: 3987: 3986: 3985: 3976: 3974: 3973: 3966:Best Wishes, 3964: 3959: 3958: 3955: 3952: 3948: 3947: 3942: 3941:verifiability: 3926: 3923: 3905: 3902: 3872: 3870: 3869: 3868: 3867: 3862:195.82.106.244 3856: 3855: 3854: 3853: 3847: 3846: 3845: 3844: 3843: 3842: 3832: 3831: 3830: 3829: 3822: 3821: 3820: 3819: 3813: 3812: 3811: 3810: 3809: 3808: 3797: 3795: 3794: 3787: 3786: 3785: 3784: 3766: 3764: 3763: 3762: 3761: 3760: 3759: 3750: 3738: 3737: 3722: 3719: 3706: 3705: 3704: 3703: 3698:195.82.106.244 3691: 3690: 3689: 3688: 3681: 3671: 3670: 3669: 3668: 3639: 3638: 3637: 3636: 3627: 3625: 3624: 3609:195.82.106.244 3579: 3576: 3562: 3560: 3559: 3558: 3557: 3538: 3534: 3526: 3525: 3524: 3523: 3522: 3521: 3493: 3492: 3491: 3490: 3489: 3488: 3476: 3475: 3474: 3473: 3472: 3471: 3455: 3453: 3452: 3451: 3450: 3438: 3437: 3436: 3435: 3428: 3418: 3417: 3416: 3415: 3412: 3411: 3408: 3407: 3401: 3400: 3399: 3398: 3390: 3389: 3388: 3387: 3378: 3376: 3375: 3369: 3364: 3326: 3308: 3305: 3303: 3296:195.82.106.244 3293: 3287: 3282: 3281: 3278: 3275: 3272: 3249: 3248: 3242: 3235: 3229: 3203: 3194: 3188: 3185: 3184: 3183: 3178:195.82.106.244 3173: 3172: 3164: 3163: 3157: 3146: 3145: 3129: 3128: 3125: 3113: 3112: 3109: 3106: 3103: 3100: 3097: 3086: 3078: 3072:and a journal 3024: 3022: 3021: 3020: 3019: 3018: 3017: 3016: 3015: 3014: 3013: 3012: 3011: 3001: 2966: 2964: 2963: 2962: 2961: 2960: 2959: 2958: 2957: 2956: 2955: 2936: 2935: 2934: 2933: 2932: 2931: 2930: 2929: 2928: 2927: 2914: 2913: 2912: 2911: 2910: 2909: 2908: 2907: 2906: 2905: 2900: 2897: 2883: 2881: 2880: 2879: 2878: 2877: 2876: 2875: 2874: 2844: 2842: 2841: 2840: 2839: 2838: 2837: 2828: 2825: 2816: 2815: 2814: 2813: 2812: 2811: 2802: 2801: 2800: 2799: 2798: 2797: 2788: 2786: 2785: 2784: 2783: 2760: 2758: 2757: 2746: 2719: 2716: 2645: 2642: 2630: 2627: 2626: 2625: 2617: 2616:OK thats good. 2612: 2565: 2562: 2547: 2544: 2543: 2542: 2541: 2540: 2535:195.82.106.244 2526: 2524: 2523: 2522: 2521: 2518: 2511: 2509: 2508: 2503:195.82.106.244 2496: 2495: 2492:Dr Hansa Raval 2468: 2465: 2464: 2463: 2462: 2461: 2453: 2447: 2446: 2445: 2444: 2438: 2437: 2432:195.82.106.244 2429: 2404: 2401: 2400: 2399: 2398: 2397: 2396: 2395: 2381: 2380: 2379: 2378: 2373:195.82.106.244 2364: 2362: 2361: 2353: 2347: 2340:195.82.106.244 2330: 2327: 2317: 2316: 2311:195.82.106.244 2296:195.82.106.244 2288: 2287: 2265: 2264: 2261: 2258: 2255: 2252: 2231: 2228: 2227: 2226: 2216: 2215: 2211: 2210: 2202: 2199: 2198: 2197: 2196: 2195: 2183: 2182: 2179: 2175: 2172: 2163:195.82.106.244 2159: 2158: 2149: 2146: 2145: 2144: 2143: 2142: 2141: 2140: 2131: 2123: 2122: 2121: 2120: 2119: 2118: 2115: 2106: 2105: 2104: 2103: 2102: 2101: 2092: 2090: 2089: 2088: 2087: 2082:195.82.106.244 2079: 2078: 2077: 2073: 2057: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2046: 2044: 2043: 2033: 2032: 2027: 2026: 2021: 2020: 2015: 2014: 2011: 2008: 2003: 1996:195.82.106.244 1992: 1991: 1976: 1975: 1961: 1958: 1949: 1946: 1928: 1925: 1910: 1907: 1904: 1903: 1892: 1881: 1869: 1868: 1858: 1815: 1799: 1794: 1788: 1782: 1776: 1770: 1739: 1736: 1734: 1725: 1724: 1723: 1722: 1712: 1700: 1699: 1666: 1660: 1657: 1655: 1633: 1628: 1625: 1623: 1621: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1605: 1604: 1603: 1602: 1595: 1589: 1588: 1564: 1563: 1514: 1511: 1497: 1496: 1485: 1484: 1480: 1479: 1473: 1472: 1462: 1452: 1442: 1441: 1429: 1410: 1397: 1394: 1370: 1367: 1353: 1352: 1340: 1327: 1324: 1323: 1322: 1321: 1320: 1301: 1300: 1299: 1298: 1292: 1291: 1290: 1289: 1283: 1282: 1271: 1270: 1265: 1264: 1218: 1216: 1215: 1205: 1204: 1199: 1198: 1194: 1190: 1189: 1184: 1183: 1178: 1177: 1170: 1169: 1164: 1101:Hi Riveros11, 1088: 1085: 1083: 1039: 1036: 1018: 990: 987: 986: 985: 984: 983: 971: 970: 969: 968: 958: 957: 956: 955: 945: 944: 943: 942: 935: 934: 933: 932: 925: 923: 922: 918: 917: 913: 912: 844:195.82.106.244 839: 834: 833: 832: 784: 781: 756: 753: 752: 751: 746:195.82.106.244 719: 716: 715: 714: 713: 712: 698: 692: 691: 690: 689: 683: 682: 677:195.82.106.244 671: 670: 663: 662: 625: 622: 621: 620: 615:195.82.106.244 605: 604: 601:Delhi incident 597: 596: 589: 588: 579: 576: 573:195.82.106.244 561: 558: 557: 556: 466: 463: 453: 451: 450: 449: 448: 447: 446: 445: 444: 439:195.82.106.244 422: 420: 419: 418: 417: 416: 415: 399: 397: 396: 395: 394: 389:195.82.106.244 378: 377: 376: 375: 369: 368: 356: 351: 349: 348: 343:195.82.106.244 316: 313: 303: 300: 294:195.82.106.244 290: 289: 286: 271: 259: 256: 254: 250: 249: 243: 242: 236: 235: 229: 228: 222: 221: 215: 214: 208: 207: 201: 200: 194: 193: 187: 186: 180: 179: 173: 172: 170:early Nov 2006 166: 165: 159: 158: 156:early Oct 2006 152: 151: 145: 144: 138: 137: 131: 130: 124: 123: 122: 105: 104: 99: 96: 91: 86: 79: 74: 69: 59: 58: 41: 30: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 5090: 5077: 5072: 5069: 5066: 5065: 5062: 5055:7 days course 5054: 5052: 5051: 5048: 5043: 5036: 5032: 5029: 5025: 5024: 5023: 5022: 5019: 5015: 5011: 5007: 5006: 5001: 4997: 4991: 4989: 4988: 4985: 4978: 4977: 4973: 4969: 4965: 4957: 4956: 4951: 4947: 4946: 4945: 4944: 4941: 4938: 4937: 4931: 4930: 4929: 4928: 4925: 4922: 4921: 4915: 4914: 4913: 4912: 4909: 4906: 4905: 4899: 4898: 4897: 4896: 4893: 4890: 4889: 4888: 4885: 4884: 4880: 4876: 4872: 4867: 4864: 4862: 4861: 4856: 4852: 4846: 4840: 4834: 4832: 4831: 4828: 4825:Best Wishes, 4823: 4822: 4819: 4814: 4811: 4808: 4804: 4797: 4795: 4794: 4791: 4786: 4785: 4782: 4777: 4773: 4772: 4769: 4765: 4764:Best Wishes, 4762: 4759: 4754: 4750: 4748: 4744: 4737: 4735: 4734: 4731: 4725: 4724: 4721: 4716: 4715: 4712: 4707: 4702: 4701: 4698: 4691: 4690: 4687: 4679: 4671: 4668: 4663: 4662: 4661: 4660: 4659: 4658: 4651: 4648: 4644: 4643: 4642: 4641: 4640: 4639: 4638: 4631: 4628: 4624: 4623: 4622: 4621: 4614: 4613: 4612: 4611: 4605: 4601: 4597: 4593: 4592: 4591: 4590: 4585: 4583: 4577: 4576: 4575: 4574: 4568: 4563: 4562: 4561: 4560: 4556: 4552: 4549: 4545: 4544: 4540: 4539: 4535: 4534: 4533: 4530: 4529: 4526: 4522: 4518: 4517: 4513: 4509: 4502: 4498: 4494: 4483: 4479: 4472: 4470: 4469: 4466: 4463: 4461: 4452: 4451: 4450: 4448: 4443: 4441: 4438: 4434: 4427: 4423: 4421: 4420: 4417: 4414:Best Wishes, 4413: 4410: 4405: 4397: 4395: 4394: 4391: 4386: 4385: 4381: 4374: 4364: 4361: 4358: 4354: 4353: 4352: 4351: 4350: 4349: 4348: 4347: 4336: 4332: 4331: 4330: 4329: 4328: 4327: 4326: 4325: 4324: 4315: 4312: 4308: 4307: 4306: 4305: 4304: 4303: 4302: 4301: 4298: 4295:Best Wishes, 4289: 4285: 4284: 4283: 4282: 4281: 4280: 4277: 4272: 4271: 4270: 4267: 4260: 4259: 4246: 4243: 4238: 4237: 4236: 4235: 4234: 4233: 4232: 4231: 4220: 4219: 4218: 4217: 4216: 4215: 4214: 4213: 4205: 4201: 4200: 4199: 4198: 4197: 4196: 4191: 4188: 4184: 4181: 4180: 4179: 4178: 4177: 4172: 4169: 4166: 4163: 4162: 4158: 4157: 4156: 4154: 4148: 4140: 4137: 4134:]. Sincerely 4133: 4131: 4127: 4123: 4120: 4119: 4118: 4117: 4116: 4115: 4114: 4106: 4103: 4102: 4101: 4100: 4093: 4090: 4086: 4085: 4084: 4083: 4077: 4076: 4075: 4074: 4071: 4068: 4064: 4063: 4060: 4056: 4055: 4050: 4049: 4044: 4043: 4040: 4036: 4032: 4031: 4027: 4025: 4023: 4020: 4014: 4005: 4002: 3999: 3997: 3992: 3991: 3990: 3989: 3984: 3981: 3980: 3979: 3978: 3977: 3972: 3969: 3965: 3961: 3960: 3956: 3953: 3950: 3949: 3946: 3943: 3939: 3938: 3937: 3936: 3933: 3924: 3922: 3921: 3918: 3915:Best Wishes, 3913: 3911: 3903: 3901: 3899: 3896: 3893:Best Wishes, 3892: 3887: 3886: 3881: 3879: 3874: 3866: 3863: 3860: 3859: 3858: 3857: 3851: 3850: 3849: 3848: 3841: 3838: 3837: 3836: 3835: 3834: 3833: 3826: 3825: 3824: 3823: 3817: 3816: 3815: 3814: 3807: 3804: 3803: 3802: 3801: 3800: 3799: 3798: 3793: 3789: 3788: 3782: 3781: 3780: 3779: 3778: 3776: 3773: 3768: 3757: 3756: 3755: 3754: 3753: 3752: 3751: 3748: 3746: 3743: 3740:Best Wishes, 3736: 3732: 3731: 3730: 3726: 3720: 3718: 3716: 3713: 3709: 3702: 3699: 3695: 3694: 3693: 3692: 3686: 3682: 3679: 3675: 3674: 3673: 3672: 3666: 3665: 3664: 3663: 3662: 3660: 3657: 3653: 3650: 3648: 3643: 3635: 3632: 3631: 3630: 3629: 3628: 3623: 3620: 3616: 3615: 3614: 3613: 3610: 3605: 3604: 3599: 3597: 3592: 3591: 3586: 3584: 3577: 3575: 3573: 3570: 3565: 3556: 3552: 3548: 3544: 3539: 3535: 3531: 3530: 3528: 3527: 3520: 3518: 3515: 3511: 3507: 3503: 3499: 3498: 3497: 3496: 3495: 3494: 3486: 3482: 3481: 3480: 3479: 3478: 3477: 3469: 3467: 3462: 3461: 3460: 3459: 3458: 3457: 3456: 3449: 3446: 3442: 3441: 3440: 3439: 3433: 3430:All links to 3429: 3426: 3425: 3424: 3423: 3422: 3421: 3413: 3409: 3405: 3404: 3403: 3402: 3397: 3394: 3393: 3392: 3391: 3386: 3383: 3382: 3381: 3380: 3379: 3374: 3371:Best WIshes, 3370: 3367: 3366: 3365: 3362: 3361: 3358: 3355:Best Wishes, 3353: 3349: 3345: 3341: 3337: 3336: 3332: 3329: 3324: 3323: 3320: 3315: 3312: 3304: 3301: 3300: 3297: 3291: 3290: 3285: 3279: 3276: 3273: 3270: 3269: 3268: 3266: 3262: 3260: 3257: 3256: 3247: 3243: 3240: 3236: 3234: 3230: 3227: 3223: 3222: 3221: 3219: 3214: 3211: 3207: 3201: 3200: 3199: 3192: 3186: 3182: 3179: 3175: 3174: 3170: 3166: 3165: 3160: 3159: 3158: 3155: 3154: 3151: 3143: 3142: 3141: 3137: 3135: 3126: 3123: 3122: 3121: 3118: 3110: 3107: 3104: 3101: 3098: 3095: 3091: 3087: 3083: 3079: 3075: 3071: 3067: 3066: 3065: 3061: 3059: 3056: 3052: 3050: 3046: 3042: 3038: 3036: 3032: 3031:72.91.151.117 3028: 3009: 3005: 3002: 3000: 2996: 2992: 2988: 2984: 2979: 2978: 2977: 2976: 2975: 2974: 2973: 2972: 2971: 2970: 2969: 2968: 2967: 2953: 2950: 2946: 2945: 2944: 2943: 2942: 2941: 2940: 2939: 2938: 2937: 2924: 2923: 2922: 2921: 2920: 2919: 2918: 2917: 2916: 2915: 2904: 2901: 2898: 2894: 2893: 2892: 2891: 2890: 2889: 2888: 2887: 2886: 2885: 2884: 2873: 2869: 2865: 2861: 2856: 2853: 2852: 2851: 2850: 2849: 2848: 2847: 2846: 2845: 2836: 2833: 2830:Best Wishes, 2829: 2826: 2822: 2821: 2820: 2819: 2818: 2817: 2808: 2807: 2806: 2805: 2804: 2803: 2795: 2794: 2793: 2792: 2791: 2790: 2789: 2782: 2778: 2774: 2770: 2765: 2764: 2763: 2762: 2761: 2756: 2753: 2749: 2748: 2747: 2744: 2743: 2740: 2737:Best Wishes, 2735: 2732: 2729: 2728: 2724: 2717: 2715: 2714: 2710: 2706: 2702: 2698: 2693: 2692: 2688: 2684: 2680: 2676: 2668: 2661: 2660:verifiability 2654: 2643: 2641: 2640: 2637: 2628: 2624: 2621: 2618: 2615: 2614: 2613: 2610: 2609: 2606: 2603:Best Wishes, 2601: 2599: 2594: 2591: 2588: 2586: 2582: 2576: 2575:7 day course 2573: 2570: 2563: 2561: 2560: 2557: 2554:Best Wishes, 2552: 2545: 2539: 2536: 2531: 2530: 2529: 2528: 2527: 2519: 2516: 2515: 2514: 2513: 2512: 2507: 2504: 2501: 2498: 2497: 2493: 2488: 2487: 2486: 2485: 2482: 2479: 2475: 2472: 2466: 2460: 2457: 2454: 2451: 2450: 2449: 2448: 2442: 2441: 2440: 2439: 2436: 2433: 2430: 2426: 2425: 2424: 2423: 2420: 2416: 2415: 2411: 2408: 2402: 2394: 2391: 2387: 2386: 2385: 2384: 2383: 2382: 2377: 2374: 2369: 2368: 2367: 2366: 2365: 2360: 2357: 2354: 2350: 2349: 2348: 2345: 2344: 2341: 2335: 2328: 2326: 2325: 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1310: 1305: 1304: 1303: 1302: 1296: 1295: 1294: 1293: 1288:Duality Rules 1287: 1286: 1285: 1284: 1280: 1277: 1273: 1272: 1267: 1266: 1262: 1261: 1260: 1259: 1256: 1253:Best Wishes, 1251: 1249: 1243: 1239: 1235: 1232: 1228: 1224: 1220: 1214: 1211: 1207: 1206: 1201: 1200: 1195: 1192: 1191: 1186: 1185: 1180: 1179: 1175: 1172: 1171: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1162: 1161: 1158: 1157:Duality Rules 1153: 1149: 1145: 1141: 1137: 1133: 1129: 1125: 1121: 1117: 1114: 1110: 1106: 1102: 1099: 1096: 1093: 1086: 1084: 1081: 1080: 1077: 1071: 1067: 1065: 1061: 1057: 1053: 1049: 1045: 1037: 1035: 1034: 1031: 1027: 1021: 1017: 1013: 1011: 1006: 1002: 999: 995: 988: 982: 979: 975: 974: 973: 972: 966: 962: 961: 960: 959: 953: 949: 948: 947: 946: 939: 938: 937: 936: 930: 929: 928: 927: 926: 920: 919: 915: 914: 909: 908: 907: 906: 903: 898: 894: 890: 888: 883: 881: 876: 874: 869: 867: 862: 858: 856: 851: 847: 845: 837: 835: 831: 828: 824: 821: 820: 819: 818: 815: 809: 808: 805: 799: 798: 795: 790: 782: 780: 779: 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