Talk:British Democratic Party (2013)

287: 266: 892:"It's certainly the case that Brons is in the BDP and that he's an MEP, as everyone agrees. Ipso facto, the BDP has a representative in the European Parliament and it's certainly the case that all the publcity from Brons/BDP mentions he's an MEP. I'd have thought that was sufficient." I don't think it necessarily follows that Brons is in the BDP and Brons is an MEP to the BDP has an MEP. I believe an independent can still be a member of a party, just not representing that party in their role. As it's an interesting question as to whether this new party that next to no one has heard of has a seat in the EU, I think it's best to not include the claim until we have a source confirming it. 874:, the BDP has a representative in the European Parliament and it's certainly the case that all the publcity from Brons/BDP mentions he's an MEP. I'd have thought that was sufficient. Granted, he wasn't elected as BDP, bu then he wasn't elected as independent either, or, as the EP website has it, "-". (Technically, you could argue that any MEP who was the only representaive of their party was, in European terms, independent in the EP, but that just confuses the issue.) Personally, whether or not it's in the infobox is not important to me - I find they frequently confuse when a good sentence of text makes things much clearer - but for consistency it makes sense. 1378:, I am puzzled by your edit. On the Nick Lowles quotation, it is from 2013, which is why “In 2013, Nick Lowles... believed” is plainly better than “Nick Lowles... believes”. I shall revert that. I have raised no objection to including what he believed, although as he is a political opponent his opinion is hardly a neutral one. But on the Collins quotation, my point was that mere speculation seven years ago by an opponent about what might later happen is completely unencyclopedic, especially in a section titled “History”. So I shall revert that and copy this to the Talk page. If you have more to say, please add it there. 1463:. When one searches for an article on the BNP, they will surely expect for the 1982 version to be the main version. The same should apply for the British Democrats, as virtually everyone who searches for an article on the British Democrats will almost certainly be looking for the 2013 version that is active today and has elected representation, not the obscure 1979 version that was far less successful and only existed for a few years many decades ago. I propose that this article be moved to the virtually unused 801:

Hope Not Hate, and the source is Hope Not Hate. So saying it's a reliable source is tautological because the source only proves that Hope Not Hate did say that. I don't dispute that Hope Not Hate said that, I dispute that we should care that Hope Not Hate said that, especially in such detail. You might as well have a paragraph from Pepsi speculating about Coke. The British Resistance recently wrote an article about the BDP, shall we include that too?

1242:

Nazism is a type of fascism!) I've not said that the Tories, UKIP or Monday Club are fascist - they're not - though that does not preclude their members being fascist. The other paries mentioned are - NF, BNP, etc. So, to take just one of your examples, Stafford, he has been a member of Labour (not fascist) and the BNP (fascist), so he quite clearly has a history of membership in a fascist group. The sentence you are quibbling about says "

386: 158: 131: 168: 570: 549: 376: 355: 100: 83: 21: 481: 460: 234: 1323: 1397:. Neither Lowles nor Collins are specifically opponents of the BDP, but are opponents of racism and fascism. And both are higly respected commenators/academics in the field who can be accepted as informed. 2) It's silly to accept a quote or view from Lowles, but not from Collins, given that the source for both is Collins' article in the 1144:

members of the National Front or British National Party. At a similar level would be state that everyone in the Labour party has a history of communism and trade unionism, which is of course untrue. As stated most of those mentioned have spent longer in non-nationalist groups. (User:Truenature12), 25 August 2013.(UTC)

1139:

The statement along with a number of others from nationalist, Conservative, UKIP and Labour party backgrounds is correct as the definition explains the full backgrounds of the steering committee. The article lists each members background and this was taken from the article and not from Kevin Scott on

771:

I'm not disputing whether or not the sources are reliable, I'm disputing the importance of an anti-Nationalist organisation's speculations. I could go onto the Hope Not Hate article and write a huge paragraph about what Nationalist parties think of Hope Not Hate, and what they speculate Hope Not Hate

1143:

Therefore the term 'along with a number of others from nationalist, Conservative, UKIP and Labour party backgrounds' is actually far more accurate than 'most of whom have a history of membership in fascist and neo-Nazi groups' this implies that everyone belongs to these groups if they have ever been

1039:

Named positions are held by Kevin Scott (chairman), Adrian Davies (treasurer) and Ken Booth (national nominating officer). The others on the committee are Dr James Lewthwaite, Brian Mahoney, Andrew Moffat, Kevan Stafford, Sam Swerling and John Walker. All except Davies are former BNP members, and of

800:

Alright, I'm going to edit in something about the average rainfall in Siberia, and cite it with reliable sources. And that will be okay, right? Just because something is a reliable source doesn't mean it's an appropriate or relevant reliable source. The source is for the opinions and speculations of

662:

I don't think describing the precise kind of organisation is all that relevant. I've removed "antifascist" (that's what the source used) and just left it blank. I've also removed your "has received criticism" line. I don't really see what it's adding; neither is explicitly criticism as such, they're

1033:

The founders, their background and speeches are described in some detail in the source, and all of them have a rich history in neo-Nazi, fascist and other extreme right wing groups. That some of them may also have been in Labour or the extreme wings of the Conservative Party does not mean they were

869:

I see your point. In my view, it is not relevant that the the European Parliament website does not list him as BDP; I imagine it is not updated in this respect unless an MEP instructs them to do so, and I suspect Brons has just neglected to inform anyone. As to its degree of officialdom, who knows?

1210:

Four years and was not in the entry and was never going to be anyway; Stafford was not listed as a BNP member before 2006 and left around 2010-11 same for Mahoney, Davies has only been a Tory and Freedom Party member and was never in the BNP, Moffatt as stated in the article stood for UKIP in 2001

1492:

Information is unencyclopaedic, instead it is an unnecessarily detailed outline of its policy slate backed solely by an out of date snapshot of the party's website. It has had a warning template for a non-primary source for more than a year and hasn't been improved, suggesting it can't be. This

1241:

On the contrary: with a first degree in political science and later research into extreme right wing and fascist parties/groups, I certainly do understand the differences between nationalism, fascism and neo-Nazism. (And, incidentally, fascism and Nazism are themselves types of nationalism, and

1194:

On Davies 'The Freedom Party, formed in 2000, went nowhere and petered out in 2006. Davies has also been prominent on the Tory right on the council of the Conservative Monday Club and the executive committee of Tory Action, and was secretary of the right-wing pressure group, the London Swinton

1135:

The 1970s National Front cannot be considered the same as the National Front of today. The only two of the steering committee that had previous links to direct and open fascist based movements are John Bean (Union Movement) and Andrew Brons (National Socialist Movement). Many of the steering

1022:

The source is purposefully misquoted. It does not say, as Knowledge has it, "The party was established by Andrew Brons..... along with a number of others from nationalist, Conservative, UKIP and Labour party backgrounds." That phrase is taken from where the article reports the speech by

707:

Why does an article about the BDP contain extensive commentary and even speculation by Hope Not Hate, an organisation which is obviously biased? Why should we care what Hope Not Hate think? The article about Hope Not Hate doesn't have commentary and speculation from Nationalist parties.

1163:

is different in many respects from today's NF; however, it was fascist. All of the groups I mentioned above - BNP mk1, BNP mk2, LEL, UM, NF, NSM, NLP, NSM - were fascits, some more openly than others, some more explicitly Nazi than others, so to say only Bean and Brons qualify is

642:

I think it is clear by anyone checking the hope not hate website that they oppose any kind of ethnic nationalism. What is it with the mindless reverts? "Anti-fascist" is a pretty label for some groups, but it does not tell any information about the real agenda of the group.

1067:- founded The Freedom Party, prominent on the Tory right on the council of the Conservative Monday Club and the executive committee of Tory Action, secretary of the right-wing pressure group, the London Swinton Circle. (The only one with no direct overtly fascist past?) 849:

Do we have a source saying that this party has a seat in the European Parliament? Yes, Brons is a member, and yes, Brons is an MEP, but I see no reason to believe that Brons does not remain an independent in the European Parliament. Certainly, the

75: 1503:

Very few of the individuals named are actually notable, as evidenced by a lack of articles on those individuals and heavy reliance on self-published social media sources by the party to promote their joining. Falls afoul of

1136:

committee namely Davies, Stafford, Swerling, Mahoney and Moffatt have spent longer in non-nationalist parties than nationalist parties around 4 years on average each with the British National Party excluding Davies.

646:

It is relevant because the party does not spouse any fascist policies (the platform does not involve anything like totalitarian control of the economy), and the criticism against them is in ethnic nationalist grounds.

681:

I don't think it is at all "clear by anyone checking the hope not hate website that they oppose any kind of ethnic nationalism". Seeing as the phrase "ethnic nationalism" is nowehere on the site, we must presume that

1198:'Then came Andrew Moffat, another man with a long history on the far right. A member of the young NF in the 1970s, he stood as a candidate for UKIP in the general elections of 2001 and 2005 and for the BNP in 2010'. 914:

As the article states (sourced): "The party was established by Andrew Brons" and its president is Brons. I think it does therefore follow that Brons is in the BDP! (Unless he founded it and immediately left....)

1029:

Scott told the audience that the BDP aims to be a broad church from the Conservative right, UK Independence Party, National Front and even old Labour, saying “we must form a union with all other nationalists”.

1535:

violations that were either dead links or completely unsupported by any sources, such as the claim they had three total parish councillors and that made them the most supported Far-Right party in the UK.

1648: 337: 327: 1207:

You clearly don't understand the difference between nationalism, fascism and neo-Nazism all of which are different ideologies. Some of those parties you listed would not have been classes as fascist.

1140:

Civil Liberty. The article refers to members former NF and BNP backgrounds but fails to class them broadly as either fascists or neo-Nazis, the only person referred to directly as such is John Bean.

1150:

No, it's not, and the source does not say that. It says that a speaker wanted to attract those sorts of people, not that those sorts of people were the founders! To say otherwise is simply dishonest.

1298: 1288: 531: 1643: 1244:

The party was launched .....by a 10 member steering committee including Andrew Brons ..... along with a number of others most of whom have a history of membership in fascist and neo-Nazi groups.

303: 1455:

article is not specified as the version of the BNP that was founded in 1982, because there is no need to specify it as being separate from the version of the BNP that was founded in

1173:

And where on earth do you get your "around 4 years on average" - that's not in the article, so it can only be your conjecture or original research, neither of which is acceptable.

1584:

I have also removed the text under the results of the 2024 election that stated "the strongest performance for a far-right political party in the election." on the same grounds.

294: 271: 1517:

Most of the section was removed as it was little more than an indiscriminate listing minor party candidates who failed to be elected in local elections. Easily falls afoul of

1119:

My version,, including "most of whom have a history of involvement in fascist and neo-Nazi groups" is totally accurate and a fair reflection of what the source actually says.

1539:

Overall all these reductions meet policy and guidelines for wikipedia, and unless it can be shown in policy/guidelines the material should be kept I will revert back again.

1628: 248: 243: 141: 1673: 1246:" Well, that's true isn't it, regardless of whther or not some have also at some time been a member of the Conservatives, Labour, Lib-Dems, UKIP or the Tufty Club. 521: 1633: 1299:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130703024415/http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/archive/british-democratic-party-launches-and-promises-it-will-belong-to-its-members

1289:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130703024415/http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/archive/british-democratic-party-launches-and-promises-it-will-belong-to-its-members

1688: 1658: 1623: 987:

The BDP has a defected county councillor in Leicestershire named Graham Partner who will be standing for the BDP in the 2013 English County Council elections.

620: 610: 442: 432: 1678: 1668: 1099:

So that's the organisers - every one of them, as the source says, with a history of fascist politics. So let's see what the source says about the audience: "

1447:

The specification of this article as being the version of the British Democratic Party that was founded in 2013 seems to be rather unnecessary, because the

1302: 1292: 1693: 1683: 1663: 1653: 1421:

I think the British Democrats party logo should be on the infobox, but I'm not too sure how to upload images on Knowledge properly. The logo is on their

772:

might do in the future and cite it with reliable sources, does that mean it's appropriate? At least let's get rid of the speculation, it's superfluous.

1618: 757:

The speculation from Hope Not Hate has been referred to by reliable sources. This article also contains quotes and views from far-right publications.

497: 224: 214: 1608: 71: 1308: 1201:'The final steering committee speaker was Kevan Stafford, former organiser of the BNP’s Charnwood branch and a Labour Party member until 1999'. 586: 408: 1638: 1613: 945:

the BDP in parliament. Certainly, this is an unusual case. Again, I'd rather wait until a reliable source lists him as a BDP MEP before we do.

1047:- Union Movement, League of Empire Loyalists, the National Labour Party, the 1960s version of the British National Party, National Front, BNP 286: 265: 1040:

those, all except Swerling were BNP officers." But just to be absolutely clear, here's a breakdown from the source for the founders of BDP:

488: 465: 663:

both predictions. A prediction of how they'll fare against the BNP, and a prediction of the kind of policies they'll be putting forward.

190: 1561:

I appreciate your cogent policy-based analysis, and have reverted my reversion of your reversion. I'll take this opportunity to remind

1573:

This is clearly disputed content; if you believe that Rambler's case is refutable, then we can continue the discussion here. Cheers,

1227: 1003: 577: 554: 399: 360: 1318:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

652: 61: 1521:

as it's a list of non-notable events. Also removed sections that were self-promotion of party conferences, falls heavily afoul of

1204:

It's also easy to find evidence of Sam Swelling being a Conservative party member and councilor and member of the Monday Club.

1448: 1272: 56: 1401:. Both are giving their considered opinion of how the the BDP will develop, based on thei experience and academic background. 299: 181: 136: 1574: 1460: 1456: 1360: 683: 648: 111: 1303:

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/archive/british-democratic-party-launches-and-promises-it-will-belong-to-its-members

1293:

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/archive/british-democratic-party-launches-and-promises-it-will-belong-to-its-members

1472: 1430: 1486:

I made a large removal of content from this page for reasons that can be defended by policy and was recently undone.

1544: 815:

It's certainly not superfluous when we still don't really have any sources saying what the policies of the party

1309:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140502013632/http://www.leeds.gov.uk/docs/Statement%20of%20Persons%20Nominated.pdf

1464: 1441: 1393:

Two points. 1) The fact that someone is a member of one organisation does not make them a "political opponent"

99: 1351: 1280: 1211:

and 2005. He joined the BNP just before the 2010 General Election. (User:Truenature12), 07 September 2013.

1556: 1540: 1562: 1468: 1452: 1426: 1223: 999: 941:

I am not claiming that Brons is not a member of the BDP, I'm proposing that it is possible that he is not

806: 777: 746: 713: 1571:

The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.

1335:

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

1312: 117: 36: 1279:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 1219: 1019:

Regarding the contested use of the source for the description of the BDP founders in the article lead:

995: 802: 773: 742: 709: 1525:. I kept the sections on elections that were won (notable events) and a failed General Election bid. 1215: 991: 1505: 1494: 1383: 950: 897: 859: 824: 762: 668: 391: 1191:

The article clearly states members previous backgrounds. To quote some extracts from the article:

585: